>happened, and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless
>and ineffective minority.
>If I were wrong, you'd have Israel recall all the
>palestinian refugees (we're talking millions). After all,
>they are civilians.
Huh?  The people who left, did so voluntarily.  There is no
reason for Israel to let them in.
>Israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it
>had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid
>flowing).
Israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...It
still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained.  And how
is granting citizenship a facade?
>>	Tell me something, Sam.  What makes land "arab?"
>How shall I explain, Its a contract between the man and the
>land.  Control isn't it. The Ottomans ruled 400 years, and
>then left with barely a trace.  The concept of Land identity
>is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic West.  It is
>partly the concept of 'le sol natal', native soil.  I know
>that jews had previous history in the region, but none in
>recent memory.  I'm talking everyday life not archeology.
Try again, you tell me what its isn't, but you fail to
establish what it is.
Also, Jews did have history in Israel for over a thousand
years.  There were lots of Jews slaughtered by Crusaders in Israel.
There was a thriving community in Gaza city from roughly 1200-1500.
Jews were a majority in Jerusalem from 1870 or so onwards.  Does that
make the land Jewish?
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Arafat (Re: Sampson)
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 61
In article <5897@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <1993Apr10.182402.11676@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>Perhaps, though one can argue about whether or not the current
>>Palestinian delegation represents the PLO (I would hope it does not, as
>>the PLO really doesn't have that kind of legitimacy).
>Does it matter to you, Naftaly, Adam, and others, that Arafat
>advises the delegation and that the PLO, overall, supports it?  Does
>it also matter that Arafat, on behalf of the PLO, recognizes Israel
>and its right to exist?  Further, does Israel's new policy concerning
>direct negotiations with the PLO hold any substance to the situation
>as a whole?
No, he does not.  Arafat explicitly *denies* this claim.
from a Libyan televison interview with Yasser Arafat 7-19-1991
Q: Some people say that the Palestinian revolution has many times changed
its strategies and tactics, something which has left its imprint on the
Palestinian problem and on the Palestinian Liberation Front.  The
[strategies and tactics] have not been clear.  The question is, is the
direction of the Palestinian problem clear?  The Palestinian leadership
has stopped, or at least this is what has been said in the media, this
happened on the way to the dialogue with the United States, the PLO
recognized something called "Israel"...
A: No, no, no!  We do not recognize the State of Israel.  We said
"recognition" -- when a Palestinian state is established.  It will then
decide if to recognize Israel or not.  When it is established, its
parliament will convene and decide.
>policies which it can justify through occupation.  Because of this,
>you have the grassroot movements that reject Israel's authority and
>disregard for human rights; and, if Israel was serious about peace, it
>would abandon these policies.
And replace them with what?  If Israel is to withdraw its
control of any territory, there must be two prerequsites.  One is that
it leads to a reduction in deaths.  The second is that it should not
weaken Israels bargianing position with respect to peace talks.
Leaving Gaza unilateraly is a bad idea because it encourages
arabs to think they can get what they want by killing Jews.  The only
way Israel should pull out of Gaza is at the end of negotiations.
These negotiations should lead to a mutually agreeable solution with
security guarantees for both sides.
Until arabs are ready to sit down at the table and talk again,
they should not expect, or recieve more concessions.
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism - again.
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 19
In article <khan0095.734814178@nova> khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan) writes:
>One of my biggest complaints about using the word "fundamentalist"
>is that (at least in the U.S.A.) people speak of muslime
>fundamentalists                                  ^^^^^^^muslim
>but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is.
>I wonder what an equal definition would be..
>any takers..
The American press routinely uses the word fundamentalist to
refer to both Christians and Jews.  Christian fundementalists are
often refered to in the context of anti-abortion protests.  The
American media also uses fundamentalist to refer to Jews who live in
Judea, Samaria or Gaza, and to any Jew who follows the torah.
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: pgf5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: pgf5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 22
With regards to my condemnation of Marc's ridiculous attacks on the
American Department of Justice, and further attacks on Jews, to
anyone who took offense to my calling Marc stupid, I
apologize for pointing out the obvious.  It was a waste of the
Net's time.  I hope, though, that most American citizens have
the basic knowlege of the structure of American government to
understand the relationship between the Justice Department
as a part of the Executive Branch, and the Courts, which
are of the Judicial Branch.
Marc's ignorance of basic civic knowlege underscores his
inability to comprehend and interpret foreign affairs.
Peace,
Pete
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 24
In article <1993Apr14.225500.15812@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>Now, if actions of the lebanese resistance help send the
>Isrealis packing, I'm all for it. If you are really
>concerned about bloodshed, a little self criticism could do
>you a great favor.
One of these days you'll learn that the way to stop Israel
from fighting back is to stop attacking.  If there were no attacks in
the security zone for a year because the Lebanese army could maintain
the peace, then Lebanon would be in much better shape.
Tell me something, though.  Why do Syrian troops not get
attacked?  Aren't they occupying Lebanon?
Israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave on two
conditions.  One is a demonstration that the Lebanese army can keep
the peace.  The second is that the Syrians pull out as well.
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 33
In article <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:
>resistance fighters. Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
>Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
>hostile occupiers in WWII.
And all this time I thought it was the US & Britian invading
Normandy, the constant, round the clock bombing, and the fact that the
Germans were fighting on two fronts.  How silly of me.  :)
This is not to devalue the actions of the resistance
movements, but resistance movements did not defeat the Nazis.
>Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the
>Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
>only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
>out the US)
Israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave when the
Lebanese government shows that it can prevent attacks on Israel, and
when the Syrians agree to leave.
The Lebanese have not tried diplomacy for very long, or maybe
they're not capable of getting rid of the Syrians and Iranians who
occupy their land.  If they closed down the Hezbolah, and negotiated a
withdrawl of Syrian forces, Israel would be happy to leave.
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 57
In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
[most of Brads post deleted.]
>we have come to accept and deal with, the Lebanese Resistance
>on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on OCCUPYING
>ISRAELI SOLDIERS until they withdraw, this is the only real
>leverage that they have to force Israel to withdraw.
Tell me, do these young men also attack Syrian troops?
>with the blood of its soldiers.  If Israel is interested in peace,
>than it should withdraw from OUR land.
There must be a guarantee of peace before this happens.  It
seems that many of these Lebanese youth are unable to restrain
themselves from violence, and unable to to realize that their actions
prolong Israels stay in South Lebanon.
If the Lebanese army was able to maintain the peace, then
Israel would not have to be there.  Until it is, Israel prefers that
its soldiers die rather than its children.
>If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw
>unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
>of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
>advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's
>public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations
>since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in
>peace and has already offered some important concessions.
Israel should withdraw from Lebanon when a peace treaty is
signed.  Not a day before.  Withdraw because of casualties would tell
the Lebanese people that all they need to do to push Israel around is
kill a few soldiers.  Its not gonna happen.
>Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
>be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not
>accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
>shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
>and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.
Why should Israel not demand this while holding the buffer
zone?  It seems to me that the better bargaining position is while
holding your neighbors land.  If Lebanon were willing to agree to
those conditions, Israel would quite probably have left already.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that the Lebanese can disarm the
Hizbolah, and maintain the peace.
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 133
In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>
>It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like
>to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
>in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
>SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
>the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not
>know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
>suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
>supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
>ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
>for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
>by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
>of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.
This a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups:
to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the
opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or,
in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. Certainly the
people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the
innocent civilians into harm's way.
Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
innocent lives?
>If Israel insists that
>the so called "Security Zone" is necessary for the protection of
>Northern Israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation
>with the blood of its soldiers.
Your damn right Israel insists on some sort of "demilitarized" or "buffer"
zone. Its had to put up with too many years of attacks from the territory
of Arab states and watched as the states did nothing. It is not exactly
surprizing that Israel decided that the only way to stop such actions is to
do it themselves.
>If Israel is interested in peace, than it should withdraw from OUR land.
What? So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states
can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the
responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their
soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of
tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
>
>I have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only
>real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace
>settlement whereby Israel withdraws to its own borders and
>peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure
>no one on either side of the border is shelled.
Good lord, Brad. What in the world goves you the idea that UN troops stop
anything? They are ONLY stationed in a country because that country allows
them in. It can ask them to leave *at any time*; as Nasser did in '56 and
'67. Somehow, with that "limitation" on the troops "powers" I don't
think that Israel is going to be any more comfortable. Without a *genuine* commitment to peace from the Arab states, and concrete (not intellectual or political exercises in jargon) "guarantees" by other parties, the UN is worthless
to Israel (but, perhaps useful as a "ruse"?).
>This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
>realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
>its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
>Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
>would have resulted in.
Perhaps you are aware that, to most communities of people, there is
the feeling that it is better that "many of us die fighting
against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently
accept our fate." If,however, you call on Israel to see the sense of
suffering fewer casualties, I suggest you apply the same to Palestinian,
Arab and Islamic groups.
>If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw
>unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
>of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
>advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's
>public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations
>since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in
>peace and has already offered some important concessions.
>Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
>be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not
>accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
>shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
>and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.
From Israel's perspective, "concessions" gets it NOTHING...except the
realization that it has given "something" up and now *can only
hope* that the other side decides to do likewise. Words *can be taken
back* by merely doing so; to "take back" tangible items (land,
control of land) requires the sort of action you say Israel should
stay away from.
Israel put up with attacks from Arab state territories for decades
before essentially putting a stop to it through its invasion of Lebanon.
The entire basis of that reality was exactly as you state above: 1) Israel
would express outrage at these attacks and protest to the Arab state
involved, 2) that state promptly ignored the entire matter, secure
in the knowledge that IT could not be held responsible for the acts
committed by "private groups", 3) Israel would prepare for the next
round of attacks. What would Israel want to return to those days (and
don't be so idiotic as to suggest "trust" for the motivations of
present-day Arab states)?
>There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
>goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such
>circumstances,
>
Ah, ok...what is "different" about the present situation that tells
us that the Arab states will *not* pursue their past antagonistic
policies towards Israel? Now, don't talk about vague "political factors"
but about those "tangible" (just like that which Israel gave up)
factors that "guarantee" the responsibility of those states. Your
assessment of "difference" here is based on a whole lot of assumptions,
and most states don't feel confortable basing their existence on that
sort of thing.
>and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
>capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
>in all other parts of Lebanon.
>
>Basil
It has not. Without the support, and active involvement, of Syria,
Lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred.
Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain
control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.
>
Tim
Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
selectively naive.
From: shaig@composer.think.com (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 78
<Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: composer.think.com
In-reply-to: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu's message of Thu, 15 Apr 1993 17:53:34 GMT
In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan) writes:
[snip]
In the first place the death of three soldiers on a patrol in occupied
Lebanese terrritory is NOT an act of terrorism or murder.  It is
disingeneous to compare their death to that of athletes in Munich
or any other act of terrorism or mrder.  This exercise is aimed
solely at diverting the issue and is far from the truth.
I agree that the death of three soldiers on a patrol etc... is
not terrorism.  That having been said, lets continue.
[snip]
imagine ????  It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like
to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
I would not argue that all or even most of the villages are "terrorist
camps".  There are however some which come very close to serving that
purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way
prior to the invasion.
SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not
know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  Once they
are back they announce that they bombed a "terrorist  hideout" where
an 8 year old girl just happened to be.
Some of the villages, and yours might well be among them, are as you
describe.  Not all are.  There are a large number of groups in the area,
backed by various organizations, with a wide range of purposes.  Hizbollah
and Amal were two of the larger ones and may still be.  As to retaliation,
while mistakes may be made, that is still a far cry from indiscriminate
bombing, which would have produced major casualties.
Israel's retalliation policy is cold hearted, but a reality that
we have come to accept and deal with, the Lebanese Resistance
on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on OCCUPYING
ISRAELI SOLDIERS until they withdraw, this is the only real
leverage that they have to force Israel to withdraw.
Well, here we disagree.  I think that Israel would willingly withdraw if
the Lebanese gov't was able to field a reliable force in the area to police
it and prevent further attacks.
This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
would have resulted in.
Actually that is not clear at all.  I will agree that the death toll is no
longer civilian and now primarily military though.
There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such
circumstances, and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
in all other parts of Lebanon.
No, the Syrian gov't is more than happy to have Israel sink into another
Lebanese morass.  I could elaborate if necessary.
I agree, only in the case of the Isareli soldiers their killing
CANNOT be qualified as murder, no matter what you say.
No, but it is regretable, as is the whole situation.
--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: bradski@retina.bu.edu (Gary Bradski)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!
<1993Apr14.201143.20969@src.honeywell.com>
<C5HuBA.CJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
<1993Apr15.031349.21824@src.honeywell.com>
Organization: Boston University Center for Adaptive Systems
Lines: 32
In-reply-to: amehdi@src.honeywell.com's message of 15 Apr 93 03:13:49 GMT
>>>>> On 15 Apr 93 03:13:49 GMT, amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) said:
In article <1993Apr15.031349.21824@src.honeywell.com> amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
. . .
>> Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
>> are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
>> are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
>> bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
>> very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
>> policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
>> the middle east!
>> I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
>> Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
>> I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.
^^^
The Syrians?  Iranian agents?  Or just Israeli invaders?
--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   ---------------
Gary Bradski                  I'net: bradski@park.bu.edu       | reverberate |
Cognitive and Neural Systems                                   ---------------
Boston University.                                                 |  V V
111 Cummington St, Boston MA 02215                                 ^   Y
617/ 353-6426                                                     ^ ^  |
--------------
I don't even agree with some of my opinions        |   or die!  |
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   --------------
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: It is sickening to think that the Armenians are capable of such...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 329
In article <1993Apr9.140123.12253@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> halsall@MURRAY.FORDHAM.EDU (Paul Halsall) writes:
>	It's curious that Serdar spend his time attacking Greeks and
>Armenians. Who just happen to be historical opponents of Turkey. The
Because, the x-Soviet Armenian government got away with the genocide
of 2.5 million Turkish men, women and children and is enjoying the
fruits of that genocide. And they are doing 'it' again. Are you so
blind?
>problem is, everybody - Arab, Greek, Bulgar, Serb, Russian, Tartar,
>Circassian, Persian, Kurd - is, or has been an opponent. Who has been
Kurds 'R' us; Armenians 'R' not.
>an ally? This historic circumstance seems to have taken a certain
>toll on Serdar: perhaps he should be posting to alt.raving.nationalist
>rather than soc.history?
Excuse me?
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
Ohanus Appressian
"Men Are Like That"
p. 202.
A genocide is a deliberate and organized massacre of people in an
attempt to exterminate a race. This is the worst crime in history.
It happened to the Turks in eastern Anatolia and the Armenian
dictatorship. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were killed in the worst
ways imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable
of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian
genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened.
People of Turkiye deeply sympathize with those whose relatives were
killed in the Turkish genocide. I understand their anger that there
are those who still deny that the Turkish genocide indeed took place,
despite the fact that the genocide of 2.5 million Turks has been
well documented over the past six decades. We cannot reverse
the events of the past, but we can and we must strive to keep the
memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the Atlantic, so as
to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people
because of their religion or their race.
Source: Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in
the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly
defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."
>	Lets get somethings straight.
Why not?
>1.	Armenians are no angels, but they were subject to Turkish genocide.
And the Germans were subject to Jewish Genocide? Are you for real?
Tell me 'Halsall', were you high on "ASALA/SDPA/ARF" forgeries and
fabrications when you wrote that? Where is your non-existent list
of scholars. Here is mine: During the First World War and the ensuing
years - 1914-1920, the Armenian Dictatorship through a premeditated
and systematic genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy
of annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering
2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year
homeland.
The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian,
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche,
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many
others.
J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.
Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.
Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.
Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.
Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.
Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.
Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.
Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.
Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.
John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History,
University of Chicago.
John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.
Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.
Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.
Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.
Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.
Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.
Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.
Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.
Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.
Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.
Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.
Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).
Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.
Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.
James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.
.......so the list goes on and on and on.....
Now wait, there is more.
Mark Alan Epstein, 'The Ottoman Jewish Communities and their Role
in the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries,' Klaus Schwarz Werlag,
Freiburg (1980).
page 19:
<<During the fifteenth century, when the Ottomans were struggling to
reestablish themselves in the Balkans, there was considerable turmoil
among the Jewish communities in Central and Western Europe. Even if
the difficulties of the darker centuries immediately preceding the
fourteenth are minimized, it is easy to understand the attraction which
Ottoman life, particularly when compared to life in Europe, held for the
Jews. There is no way to tell how many Jews left Christendom for the
realm of the rising Muslim Ottomans, but with each account of persecution
in or expulsion from Christian countries it is recorded that some Jews
fled to Ottoman territory. The regularity of these reports suggests that
the Ottomans were considered reasonably tolerant protectors and that
there was a regular trickle of Jewish families moving southward and
eastward from Western and Central Europe. (...) It is evident that the
effects of plague, late crusades, and the general intolerance and
persecution of Jews in Christian Europe resulted in the redirection
of the whole focus of Jewish life which, for more than two centuries,
was to be oriented toward Muslim East.>>
page 21:
<<In the second quarter of the fifteenth century the foremost official
in the  Edirne Jewish community was Rabbi Yitzhak Sarfati the Ashkenazi
Chief Rabbi of the city. He was the most important rabbi in the city and
the author of an important letter which tells us something of the situation
of the Edirne Jewry in the fifteenth century. Sarfati himself was from
Christian Europe and supposedly wrote this letter at the behest of two
recent arrivals from there, who, upon seeing the prosperity and freedom
of the Ottoman Jews, prevailed upon him to write their European
coreligionists apprising them of the situation and urging them to migrate.
This remarkable letter advised its recipients not only of the pleasant
conditions in the Ottoman domains, but described as well the ease of
travel to Palestine and the holy places, an attraction to those who
would make a pilgrimage or choose to be buried there.>> (*)
page 41:
<<...the impression gained from the Hebrew sources is that the Jews were
firmly aware of the community of interests which existed between them
and the Ottomans, especially in comparison to relations with the Christians
of Europe.
Confirmation of the commonality of interests between Muslims and Jews is
also indicated by the fact that European Christians perceived the Jews
as allies of Islam and were well aware of Muslim-Jewish cooperation.
Certainly the activity of important Jewish financiers and politicians
representing the Ottoman government abroad did not pass unnoticed. European
sources are the basis for much of our knowledge of their careers. In addition
it appears that Christian pirates plundered ''Turks and Jews,''  their
sworn enemies, and that Europeans considered the Jews to be agents who
regularly reported to the Ottomans.
There are well-known examples of overt Jewish support for the Ottomans
in the struggle against European powers. The two best known instances
of Jewish support for the campaigning Ottomans are the frequently cited
instances of the Jewish contributions to the conquests of Buda, in the
early sixteenth century, and of Rhodes. We also have reports of sympathy
for the Ottomans during the siege of Chios. An unpublished Ottoman
document shows dramatically the mutual interests which existed in some
Greek towns...>>
page 43:
<<It is clear that throughout the sixteenth century it was a generally
accepted fact that the interests of Jews and Muslims coincided frequently,
and all parties involved, Jews, Muslims, and Christians, were aware of
the situation.>>
page 46:
<<...it seems that the relations between Greeks and Jews were not
particularly cordial. The two groups had little in common, few common
interests, and perceived no common philosophical or religious tradition
which could serve as the basis for cooperation, rather than enmity. If
there was any identifiable bond of good will which existed between
religious communities in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, it was
that between Muslims and Jews, neither of whom had much in common with
the Orthodox.>>
page 46:
<<The general impression of Muslim-Jewish relations in the Ottoman context
during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries is one of community of
interests. From the earliest times the Ottomans seem to have welcomed
Jews to their territory and to have found in the communities already
existing in places which they conquered a cooperative element. The Jewish
response to this tolerance was a steady flow of Jews from Christian
countries to Ottoman domains.>>
page 151:
<<From the period before 1453 we have only a few indications that the
Ottoman-Jewish relationship was well on the course of amity which would
characterize it for years afterward, but the liberality of the Ottomans,
in contrast to the intolerance of the Byzantines, and the protection and
the security which the Ottomans offered, in comparison to conditions
elsewhere, leave little doupt that even then both the Ottomans and the
Jews recognized their mutual interests...>>
page 161:
<<It is impossible to say how fundamental the Jews were in the success
of the Ottomans in rebuilding Istanbul or in Ottoman mercantile success
in the sixteenth century. That they played an important role in both
cannot be doupted. It is also unclear whether they were important enough
to say that the Ottomans would not have experienced their great success
without the Jews and that no other group could have been found to serve
the Ottomans as well as did the Jews. It is, however, unmistakably clear
that there are few parallels in world history to this remarkable
partnership between Jews and the non-Jewish society in which they lived.
We must conclude that the Ottomans could probably not achieved their
success without a group performing certain tasks for them as well as the
Jews did. Certainly for the Jews of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries
the Ottoman Empire was a most remarkable and salubrious home.>>
(*) A version of Rabbi Sarfati's [Tzarfati] letter is given by Prof.Shaw:
page 32:
<<Your cries and sobs reached us. We have been told of all the troubles
and persecutions which you have to suffer in the German lands....I hear
the lamentation of my brethren...The barbarous and cruel nation ruthlessly
oppresses the faithful children of the chosen people...The priests and
prelates of Rome have risen. They wish to root out the memory of Jacob
and erase the name of Israel. They always devise new persecutions. They
wish to bring you to the stake...Listen my brethren, to the counsel I will
give you. I too was born in Germany and studied Torah with the German
rabbis. I was driven out of my native country and came to the Turkish land,
which is blessed by God and filled with all good things. Here I found rest
and happiness; Turkey can also become for you the land of peace...If you
who live in Germany knew even a tenth of what God has blessed us with
in this land, you would not consider any difficulties; you would set out
to come to us...Here in the land of the Turks we have nothing to complain
of. We possess great fortunes; much gold and silver in our hands. We are
not oppressed with heavy taxes, and our commerce is free and unhindered.
Rich are the fruits of the earth. Everything is cheap, and every one of us
lives in peace and freedom. Here the Jew is not compelled to wear a yellow
hat as a badge of shame, as is the case in Germany, where even wealth and
great fortune are a curse for a Jew because he therewith arouses jealousy
among the Christians and they devise all kinds of slander against him
to rob him of his gold. Arise my brethren, gird up your loins, collect
your forces, and come to us. Here you will be free of your enemies, here
you will find rest...>>[13]
[13] Israel Zinberg, A History Of Jewish Literature. vol.V. The Jewish
Center of Culture in the Ottoman Empire (Hebrew Union College Press,
Ktav Publishers, New York, 1974).
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 55
In article <1993Apr15.160145.22909@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@germain.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:
>My personal problem with Romanian culture is that I am
>not aware of one. There is an anecdote about Armenians
Troglodytism does not necessarily imply a low cultural level.
The image-conscious Armenians sorely feel a missing glory in
their background. Armenians have never achieved statehood and
independence, they have always been subservient, and engaged
in undermining schemes against their rulers. They committed
genocide against the Muslim populations of Eastern Anatolia
and Armenian Dictatorship before and during World War I and
fully participated in the extermination of the European Jewry
during World War II. Belligerence, genocide, back-stabbing,
rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the
Armenian history. To obliterate these episodes the Armenians
engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims. In this zeal
they tried to cover up the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million
Turks and Kurds before and during World War I.
And, you don't pull nations out of a hat.
Source: Walker, Christopher: "Armenia: The Survival of a Nation."
New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980.
This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information
of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust:
a) Dro (the butcher), the former Dictator of the Armenian Dictatorship and
the architect of the Genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds, the most
respected of Nazi Armenian leaders, established an Armenian Provisional
Republic in Berlin during World War II;
b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social
theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members
of the Aryan 'Super-Race;'
c) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves
with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews; and,
d) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 20,000 members which fought side
by side with the Wehrmacht.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The museum of 'BARBARISM'.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 215
In article <C5I7Ap.ELD@acsu.buffalo.edu> v999saum@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Varnavas A. Lambrou) writes:
>What about Cyprus?? The majority of the population is christian, but
>your fellow Turkish friends DID and STILL DOING a 'good' job for you
>by cleaning the area from christians.
All your article reflects is your abundant ignorance. The people of
Turkiye know quite well that Greece and the Greek Cypriots will never
abandon the idea of hellenizing Cyprus and will remain eternally
hopeful of uniting it with Greece, someday, whatever the cost to the
parties involved. The history speaks for itself. Greece was the sole
perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops on July
15, 1974 in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of Archibishop
Makarios.
Following the Greek Cypriot attempt to annex the island to Greece with
the aid of the Greek army, Turkiye intervened by using her legal right
given by two international agreements. Turkiye did it for the frequently
and conveniently forgotten people of the island, Turkish Cypriots. For
those Turkish Cypriots whose grandparents have been living on the island
since 1571.
The release of Nikos Sampson, a member of EOKA [National Organization
of Cypriot Fighters] and a convicted terrorist, shows that the
'enosis' mentality continues to survive in Greece. One should not
forget that Sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the Turks
in Cyprus, committed murder to achieve this goal, and tried to
destroy the island's independence by annexing it to Greece. Of
course, the Greek governments will have to bear the consequences
for this irresponsible conduct.
THE MUSEUM OF BARBARISM
2 Irfan Bey Street, Kumsal Area, Nicosia, Cyprus
It is the  house of Dr. Nihat  Ilhan, a major who  was serving at
the Cyprus  Turkish Army Contingent. During  the attacks launched
against the Turks by the Greeks, on 20th December 1963, Dr. Nihat
Ilhan's  wife and  three  children were  ruthlessly and  brutally
killed in the  bathroom, where they had tried to  hide, by savage
Greeks. Dr.  Nihat Ilhan happened to  be on duty that  night, the
24th   December  1963.   Pictures  reflecting   Greek  atrocities
committed during and after 1963 are exhibited in this house which
has been converted into a museum.
AN EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNT  OF HOW A TURKISH FAMILY  WAS BUTCHERED BY
GREEK TERRORISTS
The date  is the 24th of  December, 1963... The onslaught  of the
Greeks against the Turks, which  started three days ago, has been
going on  with all its  ferocity; and defenseless women,  old men
and children are being brutally  killed by Greeks. And now Kumsal
Area of Nicosia witnesses the  worst example of the Greeks savage
bloodshed...
The wife  and the  three infant  children of  Dr. Nihat  Ilhan, a
major on duty at the camp  of the Cyprus Turkish Army Contingent,
are  mercilessly and  dastardly  shot dead  while  hiding in  the
bathroom of their house, by  maddened Greeks who broke into their
home. A glaring example of Greek barbarism.
Let us  now listen to the  relating of the said  incident told by
Mr. Hasan  Yusuf Gudum, an  eye witness, who himself  was wounded
during the same terrible event.
"On the night of the 24th  of December, 1963 my wife Feride Hasan
and I were paying a visit to the family of Major Dr. Nihat Ilhan.
Our neighbours  Mrs. Ayshe of  Mora, her daughter Ishin  and Mrs.
Ayshe's  sister Novber  were also  with us.  We were  all sitting
having supper.  All of  a sudden bullets  from the  Pedieos River
direction started to riddle the  house, sounding like heavy rain.
Thinking  that   the  dining-room  where  we   were  sitting  was
dangerous, we  ran to  the bathroom and  toilet which  we thought
would be  safer. Altogether we were  nine persons. We all  hid in
the bathroom  except my wife  who took  refuge in the  toilet. We
waited in fear. Mrs. Ilhan the wife of Major Doctor, was standing
in the bath with her three children Murat, Kutsi and Hakan in her
arms. Suddenly with  a great noise we heard the  front door open.
Greeks had  come in and were  combing, every corner of  the house
with  their machine  gun bullets.  During these  moments I  heard
voices saying, in  Greek, "You want Taksim eh!"  and then bullets
started flying in the bathroom. Mrs. Ilhan and her three children
fell into  the bath. They were  shot. At this moment  the Greeks,
who broke  into the bathroom, emptied  their guns on us  again. I
heard one of the Major's children moan, then I fainted.
When I came  to myself 2 or  3 hours later, I saw  Mrs. Ilhan and
her three children lying dead in the  bath. I and the rest of the
neighbours in the  bathroom were all seriously  wounded. But what
had happened to my wife? Then I remembered and immediately ran to
the  toilet, where,  in  the doorway,  I saw  her  body. She  was
brutally murdered.
In the  street admist the  sound of  shots I heard  voices crying
"Help, help. Is  there no one to save us?"  I became terrified. I
thought that  if the Greeks came  again and found that  I was not
dead they would kill  me. So I ran to the  bedroom and hid myself
under the double-bed.
An our  passed by. In the  distance I could still  hear shots. My
mouth was dry,  so I came out  from under the bed  and drank some
water. Then I put  some sweets in my pocket and  went back to the
bathroom, which was exactly as I had left in an hour ago. There I
offered sweets  to Mrs. Ayshe,  her daughter and Mrs.  Novber who
were all wounded.
We  waited in  the bathroom  until 5  o'clock in  the morning.  I
thought morning would never come.  We were all wounded and needed
to be taken  to hospital. Finally, as we could  walk, Mrs. Novber
and I, went  out into the street hoping to  find help, and walked
as far as Koshklu Chiftlik.
There, we met  some people who took us to  hospital where we were
operated on. When  I regained my consciousness I  said that there
were more  wounded in the  house and  they went and  brought Mrs.
Ayshe and her daughter.
After staying three  days in the hospital I was  sent by plane to
Ankara  for  further treatment.  There  I  have had  four  months
treatment but still I cannot use  my arm. On my return to Cyprus,
Greeks arrested me at the Airport.
All  I have  related to  you above  I told  the Greeks  during my
detention. They then released me."
ON FOOT INTO CYPRUS'S DEVASTATED TURKISH QUARTER
We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish quarter of Nicosia in
which 200  to 300 people have  been slaughtered in the  last five
days.
We  were the  first  Western  reporters there,  and  we saw  some
terrible sights.
In the Kumsal quarter at No. 2, Irfan Bey Sokagi, we made our way
into  a house  whose floors  were  covered with  broken glass.  A
child's bicycle lay in a corner.
In the  bathroom, looking  like a group  of waxworks,  were three
children piled on top of their murdered mother.
In a room next to it we glimpsed  the body of a woman shot in the
head.
This, we  were told, was the  home of a Turkish  Army major whose
family had been killed by the mob in the first violence.
Today was five days later, and still they lay there.
Rene MacCOLL and Daniel McGEACHIE, (From the "DAILY EXPRESS")
"...I saw in  a bathroom the bodies of a  mother and three infant
children murdered because their father was a Turkish Officer..."
Max CLOS, LE FIGARO 25-26 January, 1964
Peter Moorhead reporting from the village of Skyloura, Cyprus.
Date : 1 January, 1964.
IL GIARNO (Italy)
THEY ARE TURK-HUNTING, THEY WANT TO EXTERMINATE THEM.
Discussions start in London; in Cyprus terror continues. Right now we
are witnessing the exodus of Turks from the villages. Thousands of people
abandoning homes, land, herds; Greek Cypriot terrorism is relentless. This
time, the rhetoric of the Hellenes and the bust of Plato do not suffice to
cover up barbaric and ferocious behaviors.
Article by Giorgo Bocca, Correspondent of Il Giorno
Date: 14 January 1964
DAILY HERALD (London)
AN APPALLING SIGHT
And when I came across the Turkish homes they were an appalling sight.
Apart from the walls, they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm bomb
attack could have created more devastation. I counted 40 blackened brick
and concrete shells that had once been homes. Each house had been deliberately
fired by petrol. Under red tile roofs which had caved in, I found a twisted
mass of bed springs, children's conts and cribs, and ankle deep grey
ashes of what had once been chairs, tables and wardrobes.
In the neighbouring village of Ayios Vassilios, a mile away, I counted 16
wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot homes. From
this village more than 100 Turkish Cypriots had also vanished.In neither village
did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house.
DAILY TELEGRAPH (London)
GRAVES OF 12 SHOT TURKISH CYPRIOTS FOUND IN CYPRUS VILLAGE
Silent crowds gathered tonight outside the Red Crescent hospital in the
Turkish Sector of Nicosia, as the bodies of 9 Turkish Cypriots found
crudely buried outside the village of Ayios Vassilios, 13 miles away, were
brought to the hospital under the escort of the Parachute Regiment. Three
more bodies, including one of a woman, were discovered nearby but could
not be removed. Turkish Cypriots guarded by paratroops are still trying to
locate the bodies of 20 more believed to have been buried on the same site.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Historical and Traditional Armenian Barbarism and Fascism.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 28
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages).
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 204 (first paragraph).
"I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of
a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make
my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy
that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of
a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a
Turkish family. There in a corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her
throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a
year old."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Muslims were one by one cruelly bayonetted to death by Armenians.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 93
In article <1993Apr15.132954.4396@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>How dare you presume that he even has a right to go around a newsgroup
>with a desire to convince others of any external position he has.
They are news because they are the exceptions. And the 'Islamic Holocaust'
is much the topic of the day. The historical evidence proves that during
the period of 1914 to 1920, the Armenian Government ordered, incited,
assisted and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people
because of race, religion and national origin. Armenians perpetrated acts
of sabotage, destroyed telephone cables, blew up bridges, blocked passes,
set up ambushes, attacked security stations and small Turkish outposts
behind the Ottoman Army lines on the one hand, and on the other ruthlessly
attacked Turkish and Kurdish villages, slaughtering the Turkish population
indiscriminately, women, children, old and young alike. Innocent
Muslims were one by one cruelly bayonetted to death, or massacred with
axes and swords, or else shut up in mosques or in schools and then burnt
alive as can be seen below.
Widespread Armenian massacres of innocent Muslims took place in regions
of Van, Kars, Sivas, Erzurum, Bitlis, Erzincan, Mus, Diyarbakir and
Maras. The Ottoman Army, while fighting to prevent the Russian invasion,
also had to deal with Armenian genocide squads who cowardly hit from
behind. The Armenian genocide of the Muslims spread to all parts of
Eastern Anatolia. Starting from late 1914, Armenians committed
widespread massacres and genocide in Eastern Anatolia, because the arena
was left to the Armenians. Almost every Turkish town and village from
Erzincan up to Azerbaidjan suffered large scale massacres and genocide
by Armenians and the Turkish genocide has been documented by Armenian,
Russian, American, British, Ottoman, German, Austrian and French
journalists and officers who observed the first genocide of this century
committed by the blood-thirsty Armenian genocide squads.
The Ottoman Army, liberating Trabzon, Bayburt, Erzincan, Erzurum,
Kars and other regions from the Russians, saw that the cities and their
villages had been destroyed and burnt, people slaughtered, massacred.
The massacres conducted by Armenians, which became a black stain for
humanity, shocked and disgusted even the Russian, British, German,
Austrian, French and American authorities.
Almost every Ottoman document is related to Armenian massacres and
cruelties. The inhuman treatment, cruelties, atrocities, genocide by
Armenian genocide squads perpetrated against innocent Moslem Turkish
and Kurdish people, are sufficiently reflected in historical documents.
Even today over seventy-five years later, the terrifying screams of
the victims of these cruelties can be heard.
Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
"Document No: 76," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 109, Drawer
No: 3, File No: 346, Section No: 427(1385), Contents No: 3, 52-53.
(To Lt. Colonel Seyfi, General Headquarters, Second Section,
Istanbul - Dr. Stephan Eshnanie)
'Neues Wiener Tagblatt' - Vienna, 'Pester Lloyd' 'Local Anzliger' - Berlin,
'Algemeen Handelsblat' - Amsterdam, 'Vakit' - Istanbul.
"I have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of Russians and
Armenians from Turkish territories through Armenia. Although two months
have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of Armenian gangs, I
have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the Armenians at
almost every step. All the villages from Trabzon to Erzincan and from
Erzincan to Erzurum are destroyed. Corpses of Turks brutally and cruelly
slain are everywhere. According to accounts by those who were able to
save their lives by escaping to mountains, the first horrible and fearful
events begun when the Russian forces evacuated the places which were then
taken over by Armenian gangs. The Russians usually treated the people
well, but the people feared the intervention of the Armenians. Once these
places had been taken over by the Armenians, however, the massacres begun.
They clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the
Armenian and Kurdish land from the Turks and thus, solve the nationality
problem. Today I had the opportunity to meet Austrian and German soldiers
who had escaped from Russian prison camps and come from Kars and
Alexander Paul (Gumru-Leninakan)...Russian officers tried to save the
Turks and there were clashes between Russian officers and Armenian gangs.
I am now in Erzurum, and what I see is terrible. Almost the whole city is
destroyed. The smell of the corpses still fills the air. Although there are
speculations that Armenian gangs murdered Austrian and German prisoners as
well, I could not get the supporting evidence in this regard, but there is
proof of murdering of Turkish prisoners of war."
Dr. Stephan Eshnanie
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: oz@ursa.sis.yorku.ca (Ozan S. Yigit)
Subject: Re: Turkish Government Agents on UseNet Lie Through Their Teeth!
In-Reply-To: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org's message of Thu, 15 Apr 1993 20: 45:12 GMT
Organization: York U. Student Information Systems Project
Lines: 15
Davidian-babble:
>The Turkish government feels it can funnel a heightened state of ultra-
>nationalism existing in Turkey today onto UseNet and convince people via its
>revisionist, myopic, and incidental view of themselves and their place in the
>world.
Turkish government on usenet? How long are you going to keep repeating
this utterly idiotic [and increasingly saddening] drivel?
oz
---
life of a people is a sea, and those that look at it from the shore
cannot know its depths.			     -Armenian proverb
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Turkey Admits to Sending Arms to Azerbaijan/Turkish Pilot Caught
Summary: Oh, yes...neutral Turkey
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 57
4/15/93 1242  Turkey sends light weapons as aid to Azerbaijan
By SEVA ULMAN
ANKARA, Turkey (UPI) -- Turkey is arming Azerbaijan with light weapons to help
it fight Armenian forces in the struggle for the Nagorno- Karabakh enclave,
the newspaper Hurriyet said Thursday.
Deputy Prime Minister Erdal Inonu told reporters in Ankara that Turkey was
responding positively to a request from Azerbaijan for assistance.
"We are giving a positive response to all requests" from Azerbaijan, "within
the limits of our capabilities," he said.
Foreign Ministry spokesman Vural Valkan declined to elaborate on the nature
of the aid being sent to Azerbaijan, but said they were within the framework
of the Council for Security and Cooperation in Europe.
Hurriyet, published in Istanbul, said Turkey was sending light weapons to
Azerbaijan, including rockets, rocket launchers and ammunition.
Ankara began sending the hardware after a visit to Turkey last week by a
high-ranking Azerbaijani official. Turkey has however ruled out, for the second
time in one week, that it would intervene militarily in Azerbaijan.
Wednesday, Inonu told reporters Ankara would not allow Azerbaijan to suffer
defeat at the hands of the Armenians. "We feel ourselves bound to help
Azerbaijan, but I am not in a position right now to tell you what form (that)
help may take in the future," he said.
He said Turkish aid to Azerbaijan was continuing, "and the whole world knows
about it."
Prime Minister Suleyman Demirel reiterated that Turkey would not get
militarily involved in the conflict. Foreign policy decisions could not be
based on street-level excitement, he said.
There was no immediate reaction in Ankara to regional reports, based on
Armenian sources in Yerevan, saying Turkish pilots and other officers were
captured when they were shot down flying Azerbaijani warplanes and
helicopters.
The newspaper Cumhuriyet said Turkish troops were digging in along the border
with Armenia, but military sources denied reports based on claims by local
people that gunfire was heard along the border. No military action has
occurred, the sources said.
The latest upsurge in fighting between the Armenians and Azerbaijanis flared
early this month when Armenian forces seized the town of Kelbajar and later
positioned themselves outside Fizuli, near the Iranian border.
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Public Service Translation No.2
Summary:  A Call to Action
Keywords: effective Greek & Armenian postings
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 61
Subject: Re: NETTEKI BUTUN VATANSEVERLERE DUYURU....
In article <1993Apr13.090647.2507@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.
ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) [a.k.a. Kubilay Kultigin] continues...
[KK] BUTUN NETTEKI ARKADASLARA DUYURU....
[KK]
[KK] (SIYASI PLATFORMUN HANGI "TARAFINDA OLURSANIZ OLUN")
[KK]
[KK] BUGUNLERDE BU NETTE OLSUN, TALK.POLITICS.MIDEAST VE TALK.POLITICS.
[KK] SOVIET'TE OLSUN OLAGAN DAN FAZLA VE "ETKIN" ERMENI VE YUNAN
[KK] POSTINGLERI YAZILMAKTADIR. BU YAZILARIN COGU GUNCEL KARABAG
[KK] KIBRIS VE BOSNA KONULARINDA YOGUNLASMAKTADIR. BURADAN HAREKETLE
[KK] "HEPIMIZIN" BIRAZ DAHA AKTIF OLMASI VE "USENMEYIP" CEVAP YAZMASI
[KK] OLDUKCA FAYDALI OLACAKTIR.
[KK]
[KK] EVET, HERKESIN ISI GUCU VAR...AKADEMIK YILIN YOGUN BIR DONEMI
[KK] FAKAT MEYDANI BOS BIRAKMAMANIN VE ULKEMIZIN CIKARLARINI "IDEOLOJIK
[KK] PLATFORMDA" GOZETMENIN DE SORUMLULUGU VAR...
[KK]
[KK] YARINLARIN CAGDAS VE GUCLU TURKIYESI'NI HEP BERABER KURMAK UMUDUYLA,
[KK]
[KK] SAYGILAR,
[KK] Kubilay Kultigin
[KK] ***** VATAN SEVGISI RUHLARI KIRDEN KURTARAN EN KUVVETLI RUZGARDIR *****
In translation, as a public service:
Subject: AN ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL PATRIOTS ON THE NET...
AN ANNONCEMENT TO ALL FRIENDS ON THE NET...
(REGARDLESS OF "WHEREVER YOU STAND" ON THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM)
IN RECENT DAYS ARMENIAN AND GREEK POSTINGS OF THAN THE USUAL IN NUMBER AND
"EFFECTIVENESS" ARE BEING WRITTEN BOTH ON THIS NET AND THE TALK.POLITICS.
MIDEAST AND TALK.POLITICS.SOVIET. MOST OF THESE WRITINGS CONCENTRATE ON THE
SUBJECTS OF KARABAGH, CYPRUS AND BOSNIA. DUE TO THIS FACT, IT IS QUITE USEFUL
FOR "US ALL" BE MORE ACTIVE AND "NOT FEEL RELUCTANT" TO RESPOND.
YES, EVERYBODY HAS HIS/HER OCCUPATION...IT IS A BUSY PERIOD IN THE ACADEMIC
YEAR. HOWEVER, [WE MUST] HAVE A RESPONSIBILTY NOT TO LEAVE THE FORUM EMPTY AND
WATCH THE INTERESTS OF OUR COUNTRY ON THE "IDEOLOGICAL LEVEL"...
IN THE HOPE OF BUILDING TOGETHER A MODERN AND POWERFUL TURKEY OF TOMORRROW.
REGARDS,
Kubilay Kultigin
***** THE LOVE OF THE FATHERLAND IS THE STRONGEST OF ALL WINDS CLEANSING FILTH
OFF SOULS *****
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 117
In article <2BCA3DC0.13224@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>
>The latest Israeli "proposal", first proposed in February of 1992, contains
>the following assumptions concerning the nature of any "interim status" refering to the WB and Gaza, the Palestinians, implemented by negotiations. It
>states that:
>   >Israel will remain the existing source of authority until "final status"
>    is agreed upon;
>   >Israel will negiotiate the delegation of power to the organs of the
>    Interim Self-Government Arrangements (ISGA);
>   >The ISGA will apply to the "Palestinian inhabitants of the territories"
>    under Israeli military administration. The arrangements will not have a
>    territorial application, nor will they apply to the Israeli population
>    of the territories or to the Palestinian inhabitants of Jerusalem;
>   >Residual powers not delegated under the ISGA will be reserved by Israel;
>   >Israelis will continue to live and settle in the territoriesd;
>   >Israel alone will have responsibility for security in all its aspects-
>    external, internal- and for the maintenance of public order;
>   >The organs of the ISGA will be of an administrative-functional nature;
>   >The exercise of powers under the ISGA will be subject to cooperation and
>    coordination with Israel.
>   >Israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the
>    areas of administration, justice, personnel, agriculture, education,
>    business, tourism, labor and social welfare, local police,
>    local transportation and communications, municipal affairs and religious
>    affairs.
>
>The Palestinian counterproposal of March 1992:
>   >The establishment of a Palestinian Interim Self-Governing Authority
>    (PISGA) whose authority is vested by the Palestinian people;
>   >Its (PISGA) powers cannot be delegated by Israel;
>   >In the interim phase the Israeli military government and civil adminis-
>    tration will be abolished, and the PISGA will asume the powers previous-
>    ly enjoyed by Israel;
>   >There will be no limitations on its (PISGA) powers and responsibilities
>    "except those which derive from its character as an interim arrangement";
>   >By the time PISGA is inaugurated, the Israeli armed forces will have
>    completed their withdrawal to agreed points along the borders of the
>    Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). The OPT includes Jerusalem;
>   >The jurisdiction of the PISGA shall extend to all of the OPT, including
>    its land, water and air space;
>   >The PISGA shall have legislative powers to enact, amend and abrogate laws;
>   >It will wield executive power withput foreign control;
>   >It shall determine the nature of its cooperation with any state or
>    international body, and shall be empowered to conclude binding coopera-
>    tive agreements free of any control by Israel;
>   >The PISGA shall administer justice throughout the OPT and will have sole
>    and exclusive jruisdiction;
>   >It will have a strong police force responsible for security and public
>    order in the OPT;
>   >It can request the assistance of a UN peacekeeping force;
>   >Disputes with Israel over self-governing arrangements will be settled by
>    a committee composed of representatives of the five permanent members of
>    the UN Security Council, the Secretary General (of the UN), the PISGA,
>    Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Israel.
>
>But perhaps the "bargaining" attitude behind these very different visions
>of the "interim stage" is wrong? For two reasons: 1) the present Palestinian
>and Israeli leadership are *as moderate* as is likely to exist for many years,
>so the present opportunity may be the last for a significant period, 2) since
>these negotiations *are not* designed to, or even attempting to, resolve the
>conflict, attention to issues dealing with a desired "final status" are mis-
>placed and potentially destructive.
>
>Given this, how should proposals (from either side) be altered to temper
>their "maximalist" approaches as stated above? How can Israeli worries ,and
>desire for some "interim control", be addressed while providing for a very
>*real* interim Palestinian self-governing entity?
>
>Tim
>
April 13, 1993 response by Al Moore (L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM):
Basically the problem is that Israel may remain, or leave, the occupied
territories; it cannot do both, it cannot do neither. So far, Israe
continues to propose that they remain. The Palestinians propose that they
leave. Why should either change their view? It is worth pointing out that
the only area of compromise accomodating both views seems to require a
reduction in the Israeli presence. Israel proposes no such reduction....
and in fact may be said to *not* be negotiating.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim:
There seem to be two perceptions that **have to be addressed**. The
first is that of Israel, where there is little trust for Arab groups, so
there is little support for Israel giving up **tangible** assets in
exchange for pieces of paper, "expectations", "hopes", etc. The second
is that of the Arab world/Palestinians, where there is the demand that
these "tangible concessions" be made by Israel **without** it receiving
anything **tangible** back.  Given this, the gap between the two stances
seems to be the need by Israel of receiving some ***tangible*** returns
for its expected concessions. By "tangible" is meant something that
1) provides Israel with "comparable" protection (from the land it is to
give up), 2) in some way ensures that the Arab states and Palestine
**will be** accountable and held actively (not just "diplomatically)
responsible for the upholding of all actions on its territory (by citizens
or "visitors").
In essence I do not believe that Israel objections to Palestinian
statehood would be anywhere near as strong as they are now IF Israel
was assured that any new Palestinian state *would be committed to**
co-existing with Israel and held responsible for ALL attacks on Israel
from its territory.
Aside from some of the rather slanted proposals above,
how *could* such "guarantees" be instilled? For example,
how could such "guarantees"/"controls" be added to the
Palestinian PISGA proposals?
Israel is hanging on largely because it is scared stiff that the minute
it lets go (gives lands back to Arab states, no more "buffer zone", gives
full autonomy to Palestinians), ANY and/or ALL of the Arab parties
could (and *would*, if not "controlled" somehow) EASILY return to the
traditional anti-Israel position. The question then is HOW to *really*
ensure that that will not happen.
Tim
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU
Subject: Re: Water on the brain (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)
Originator: hasan@lightning.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: lightning.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Lines: 15
In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> --
|> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Mr. water-head,
i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no
water is being used on the lebanese
side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.
Hasan
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Lines: 23
In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
> Lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an Israeli occupation
> patrol in Lebanese territory two days ago. Three soldiers were killed and
> two wounded. In "retaliation", Israeli and Israeli-backed forces wounded
> 8 civilians by bombarding several Lebanese villages. Ironically, the Israeli
> government justifies its occupation in Lebanon by claiming that it is
> necessary to prevent such bombardments of Israeli villages!!
>
> Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
> Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
> bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
> government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.
>
> Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
I'm sure the Federal Bureau of Investigation (fbi.gov on the Internet) is going
to *love* reading your incitement to murder.
Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Clinton's views on Jerusalem
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Lines: 15
I recently read that during Bill Clinton's campaign, he stated
that if elected he would immediately recognize Jerusalem as
Israel's capital.  According to the article, Mr. Clinton
reaffirmed this after winning the presidency.  However,
during recent talks with President Mubarak, Secretary of
State Christopher stated that "the status of Jerusalem
will be a final matter of discussion between the parties".
Now I don't want to start a big discussion over the status
of Jerusalem.  All I want to know is if anyone can
authenticate Mr. Clinton's statements with dates, places, etc.
Thank you.
Ben.
From: farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp (Farzin Mokhtarian)
Subject: News briefs from KH # 1026
Originator: sehari@vincent1.iastate.edu
Organization: NTT Corp. Japan
Lines: 31
From:  Kayhan Havai # 1026
--------------------------
o Dr. Namaki,  deputy minister of health stated that infant
mortality (under one year old) in Iran went down from 120
per  thousand before the revolution to 33 per thousand at
the end of 1371 (last month).
o Dr Namaki also stated that before the revolution only
254f children received vaccinations to protect them
from various deseases but this figure reached 93at
the end of 1371.
o Dr. Malekzadeh, the minister of health mentioned that
the population growth rate in Iran at the end of 1371
went below 2.7
o During the visit of Mahathir Mohammad, the prime minister
of Malaysia, to Iran, agreements for cooperation in the
areas of industry, trade, education and tourism were
signed. According to one agreement, Iran will be in
charge of building Malaysia's natural gas network.
----------------------------------------------------------
- Farzin Mokhtarian
--
From: mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Nntp-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Lines: 16
From article <1qvgu5INN2np@lynx.unm.edu>, by osinski@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Marek Osinski):
> Well, it did not take long to see how consequent some Greeks are in
> requesting that Thessaloniki are not called Solun by Bulgarian netters.
> So, Napoleon, why do you write about Konstantinople and not Istanbul?
>
> Marek Osinski
Thessaloniki is called Thessaloniki by its inhabitants for the last 2300 years.
The city was never called Solun by its inhabitants.
Instabul was called Konstantinoupolis from 320 AD until about the 1920s.
That's about 1600 years. There many people alive today who were born in a city
called Konstantinoupolis. How many people do you know that were born in a city
called Solun.
Napoleon
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 48
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
>>of those files.
>>So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
>>1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?
>ADL authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including
>the millions of Americans of Arab ancestry.  Perhaps you can answer
>the question as to why the ADL maintained files and spied on ADC members
>in California (and elsewhere??)?  Friendly rivalry perhaps?
Come on!  Most if not all Arabs are sympathetic to the Palestinian war
against Israel.  That is why the ADL monitors Arab organizations.  That is
the same reason the US monitored communist organizations and Soviet nationals
only a few years ago.
>Perhaps Yigal is a Greenpeace member? Or the NAACP? Or a reporter?
>Or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations/ethnic
>minorities/occupations that the ADL spied on.
All of these groups have, in the past, associated with or been a part of anti-
Israel activity or propoganda.  The ADL is simply monitoring them so that if
anything comes up, they won't be caught by surprise.
>>2. Why does the ADL have an interest in that person ?
>Paranoia?
No, that is why World Trade Center bombings don't happen in Israel (aside from
the fact that there is no world trade center) and why people like Zein Isa (
Palestinian whose American group planned to bow up the Israeli Embassy and
"kill many Jews.") are caught.  As Mordechai Levy of the JDL said, Paranoid
Jews live longer.
>>3. If one does trust either the US government or the ADL what an
>>   additional information should he send them ?
>The names of half the posters on this forum, unless they already
>have them.
They probably do.
>>Gideon Ehrlich
>-anwar
Ed.
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Summary: An Untried Approach
Lines: 59
In article <1993Apr20.114746.3364@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
> In article <1993Apr19.214300.17989@unocal.com>, stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
>
> |> (Brad Hernlem writes:
> |>
> |>
> |> >Well, you should have noted that I was cheering an attack on an Israeli
> |> >patrol INSIDE Lebanese territory while I was condemning the "retaliatory"
> |> >shelling of Lebanese villages by Israeli and Israeli-backed forces. My "team",
> |> >you see, was "playing fair" while the opposing team was rearranging the
> |> >faces of the spectators in my team's viewing stands, so to speak.
> |>
> |> >I think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on
> |> >in Lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. There are no a priori
> |> >black and white hats but one sure wonders how the IDF can bombard villages in
> |> >retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in Lebanon and then call the
> |> >Lebanese terrorists.
> |>
> |> If the attack was justified or not is at least debatable. But this is not the
> |> issue. The issue is that you were cheering DEATH. [...]
> |>
> |> Dorin
>
> Dorin, of all the criticism of my post expressed on t.p.m., this one I accept.
> I regret that aspect of my post. It is my hope that the occupation will end (and
> the accompanying loss of life) but I believe that stiff resistance can help to
> achieve that end. Despite what some have said on t.p.m., I think that there is
> a point when losses are unacceptable. The strategy drove U.S. troops out of
> Lebanon, at least.
>
> Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Hi Brad,
I have two comments:  Regarding your hope that the "occupation will end...
belive that stiff resistance..etc. - how about an untried approach, i.e.,
peace and cooperation.  I can't help but wonder what would happen if all
violence against Israelis stopped.  Hopefully, violence against Arabs
would stop at the same time.  If a state of non-violence could be
maintained, perhaps a state of cooperation could be achieved, i.e.,
greater economic opportunities for both peoples living in the
"territories".
Of course, given the current leadership of Israel, your way may work
also - but if that leadership changes, e.g., to someone with Ariel
Sharon's mentality, then I would predict a considerable loss of life,
i.e., no winners.
Secondly, regarding your comment about the U.S. troops responding
to "stiff resistance" - the analogy is not quite valid.  The U.S.
troops could get out of the neighborhood altogether.  The Israelis
could not.
Just my $.02 worth, no offense intended.
Respectfully,
Ben.
From: maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal
Nntp-Posting-Host: pelvoux
Organization: IMAG, University of Grenoble, France
Lines: 43
In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
|>
|> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
|> Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
|>
|>
|> A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
|> ---------------------------------------------------------- by
|> 			  Elias Davidsson
|>
|> 1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
|> for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
|> and the other Palestinian-Arab.
|>
|> 2.      To be entitled for a grant, a couple will have to prove
|> that one of the partners possesses or is entitled to Israeli
|> citizenship under the Law of Return and the other partner,
|> although born in areas under current Isreali control, is not
|> entitled to such citizenship under the Law of Return.
|>
|> 3.      For the first child, the grant will amount to $18.000. For
|> the second the third child, $12.000 for each child. For each
|> subsequent child, the grant will amount to $6.000 for each child.
...
|> I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
|> well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
|> discussion and enrichment.
|>
|> Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND
Maybe I'm a bit old-fashioned, but have you heard about something
called Love? It used to play some role in people's considerations
for getting married. Of course I know some people who married
fictitiously in order to get a green card, but making a common
child for 18,000$? The power of AA is limited. Your proposal is
indeed unconventional.
===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG, Bat D, B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846     Fax: 76446675      e-mail: maler@imag.fr
===============================================================
From: rint69@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (rintoul bradley e)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, Apr 20
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 4
Why do you insist on reposting the entire original post?
Don't waste bandwidth, please.  You know how picky us non-
Jews can be.  Ha Ha. :|
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Lezgians Astir in Azerbaijan and Daghestan
Summary: asking not to fight against Armenians in Karabakh & for unification
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 106
04/19/1993 0000  Lezghis Astir
By NEJLA SAMMAKIA
Associated Press Writer
GUSSAR, Azerbaijan (AP) -- The 600,000 Lezghis of Azerbaijan and Russia have
begun clamoring for their own state, threatening turmoil in a tranquil corner
of the Caucasus.
The region has escaped the ethnic warfare of neighboring Nagorno-Karabakh,
Abkhazia and Ossetia, but Lezhgis could become the next minority in the former
Soviet Union to fight for independence.
Lezghis, who are Muslim descendents of nomadic shepherds, are angry about the
conscription of their young men to fight in Azerbaijan's 5-year-old undeclared
war with Armenia.
They also want to unite the Lezghi regions of Azerbaijan and Russia, which
were effectively one until the breakup of the Soviet Union created national
borders that had been only lines on a map.
A rally of more than 3,000 Lezghis in March to protest conscription and
demand a separate "Lezghistan" alarmed the Azerbaijani government.
Officials in Baku, the capital, deny rumors that police shot six
demonstrators to death. But the government announced strict security measures
and began cooperating with Russian authorities to control the movement of
Lezhgis living across the border in the Dagestan region of Russia.
Visitors to Gussar, the center of Lezhgi life, found the town quiet soon
after the protest. Children played outdoors in the crisp mountain air.
At the Sunday bazaar, men in heavy coats and dark fur hats gathered to
discuss grievances ranging from high customs duties at the Russian border to a
war they say is not theirs.
"I have been drafted, but I won't go," said Shamil Kadimov, gold teeth
glinting in the sun. "Why must I fight a war for the Azerbaijanis? I have
nothing to do with Armenia."
More than 3,000 people have died in the war, which centers on the disputed
territory of Nagorno-Karabakh, about 150 miles to the southeast.
Malik Kerimov, an official in the mayor's office, said only 11 of 300 locals
drafted in 1992 had served.
"The police don't force people to go," he said. "They are afraid of an
uprising that could be backed by Lezghis in Dagestan."
All the men agreed that police had not fired at the demonstrators, but
disagreed on how the protest came about.
Some said it occurred spontaneously when rumors spread that Azerbaijan was
about to draft 1,500 men from the Gussar region, where 75,000 Lezghis live.
Others said the rally was ordered by Gen. Muhieddin Kahramanov, leader of the
Lezhgi underground separatist movement, Sadval, based in Dagestan.
"We organized the demonstration when families came to us distraught about
draft orders," said Kerim Babayev, a mathematics teacher who belongs to Sadval.
"We hope to reunite peacefully, by approaching everyone -- the Azerbaijanis,
the Russians."
In the early 18th century, the Lezhgis formed two khanates, or sovereignties,
in what are now Azerbaijan and Dagestan. They roamed freely with their sheep
over the green hills and mountains between the two khanates.
By 1812, the Lezghi areas were joined to czarist Russia. After 1917, they
came under Soviet rule. With the disintegration of the Soviet Union, the
600,000 Lezghis were faced for the first time with strict borders.
About half remained in Dagestan and half in newly independent Azerbaijan.
"We have to pay customs on all this, on cars, on wine," complained Mais
Talibov, a small trader. His goods, laid out on the ground at the bazaar,
included brandy, stomach medication and plastic shoes from Dagestan.
"We want our own country," he said. "We want to be able to move about easily.
But Baku won't listen to us."
Physically, it is hard for outsiders to distinguish Lezhgis from other
Azerbaijanis. In many villages, they live side by side, working at the same
jobs and intermarrying to some degree.
But the Lezhgis have a distinctive language, a mixture of Arabic, Turkish and
Persian with strong guttural vowels.
Azerbaijan officially supports the cultural preservation of its 10 largest
ethnic minorities. The Lezghis have weekly newspapers and some elementary
school classes in their language.
Autonomy is a different question. If the Lezghis succeeded in separating from
Azerbaijan, they would set a precedent for other minorities, such as the
Talish in the south, the Tats in the nearby mountains and the Avars of eastern
Azerbaijan.
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: osinski@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Marek Osinski)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: chtm.eece.unm.edu
In article <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:
>Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
>Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
>waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of
>Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.
Well, it did not take long to see how consequent some Greeks are in
requesting that Thessaloniki are not called Solun by Bulgarian netters.
So, Napoleon, why do you write about Konstantinople and not Istanbul?
Marek Osinski
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, Apr 20
Organization: MCSNet Contributor, Chicago, IL
Lines: 65
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.mcs.com
In article <1993Apr19.165514.17138@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin) writes:
>In article <1qu7op$456@genesis.MCS.COM>, arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>>
>>             NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, APR 19, 1993
>>
>>           Not because you were too busy but because
>>             Israelists in the US media spiked it.
>>
>>                      ................
>>
>>
>>                   THOSE INTREPID ISRAELI SOLDIERS
>>
>>
>>  Israeli soldiers have sexually taunted Arab women in the occupied Gaza Strip
>>  during the three-week-long closure that has sealed Palestinians off from the
>>  Jewish state, Palestinian sources said on Sunday.
>>
>>  The incidents occurred in the town of Khan Younis and involved soldiers of
>>  the Golani Brigade who have been at the centre of house-to-house raids for
>>  Palestinian activists during the closure, which was imposed on the strip and
>>  occupied West Bank.
>>  If you are as revolted at this as I am, drop Israel's best friend email and
>>  let him know what you think.
>>
>>
>>            75300.3115@compuserve.com (via CompuServe)
>>            clintonpz@aol.com         (via America Online)
>>            clinton-hq@campaign92.org (via MCI Mail)
>>
>>
>>  Tell 'em ARF sent ya.
>>
>>                   ..................................
>>
>>  If you are tired of "learning" about American foreign policy from what is
>>  effectively, Israeli controlled media, I highly recommend checking out the
>>  Washington Report.  A free sample copy is available by calling the American
>>  Education Trust at:
>>                       (800) 368 5788
>>
>>                   Tell 'em arf sent you.
>>
>>  js
>>
>>
>>
>
>I took your advice and ordered a copy of the Washinton Report.  I
>heartily recommend it to all pro-Israel types for the following
>reasons:
>
>1.  It is an excellent absorber of excrement.  I use it to line
>    the bottom of my parakeet's  cage.  A negative side effect is
>    that my bird now has a somewhat warped view of the mideast.
>
>2.  It makes a great April Fool's joke, i.e., give it to someone
>    who knows nothing about the middle east and then say "April
>    Fools".
>
Clearly, if a Chutzpa reacts this way, it must be worth reading by
more objective types.  You are so wrapped up in your hate that you
can't even take the time to edit out my long posting.  Thanks for
the extra milege by reposting it.
From: cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)
Subject: Ten questions about Israel
Lines: 55
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500349:000:1868
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 19 14:38:00 1993
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Ten questions about Israel
Ten questions to Israelis
-------------------------
I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
provide
accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
people around me.
1.      Is it true that the Israeli authorities don't recognize
Israeli nationality ? And that ID cards, which Israeli citizens
must carry at all times, identify people as Jews or Arabs, not as
Israelis ?
2.      Is it true that the State of Israel has no fixed borders
and that Israeli governments from 1948 until today have refused to
state where the ultimate borders of the State of Israel should be
?
3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
could you provide any evidence ?
4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
state secrets ?
5.      Is it true that Jews who reside in the occupied
territories are subject to different laws than non-Jews?
6.      Is it true that Jews who left Palestine in the war 1947/48
to avoid the war were automatically allowed to return, while their
Christian neighbors who did the same were not allowed to return ?
7.      Is it true that Israel's Prime Minister, Y. Rabin, signed
an order for ethnical cleansing in 1948, as is done today in
Bosnia-Herzegovina ?
8.      Is it true that Israeli Arab citizens are not admitted as
members in kibbutzim?
9.      Is it true that Israeli law attempts to discourage
marriages between Jews and non-Jews ?
10.     Is it true that Hotel Hilton in Tel Aviv is built on the
site of a muslim cemetery ?
Thanks,
Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 28
In article <1993Apr18.162427.17712@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine) writes:
>tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>:
>: While you brought up the separate question of Israel's unjustified
>: policies and practices, I am still unclear about your reaction to
>: the practices and polocies reflected in the article above.
>:
>: Tim
>
>Not a separate question Mr. Clock. It is deceiving to judge the
>resistance movement out of the context of the occupation.
>
>Alaa Zeineldine
When the PLO moved into Lebanon and became, in parts of Lebanon, an
Occupying Power itself, these same practices were common against
non-Palestinean and Palestinean alike.  They are simply Standard
Operating Procedures among Palestineans and have been for a very long
time.  In fact, the greatest bloodbath of Palestineans will happen
when they get self-rule.  Can you possibly deny this?
When the PLO is the Occupier, who are you NOW going to blame?
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by CPR => (unconventional peace)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc8.ins.cwru.edu
First this man promotes the dissolution of the Jews through an
intermarriage process, and then says that it will be just a bunch
of 'fundamentalist' Jews who will object.  This clown even called
for 'buying' the dissolution of the Jewish people.
Does this idiot mean to suggest that any Jew who objects to an
imibicilic notion like this is fundamentalist?  Or does he simply
mean to insult the orthodox by using the word 'fundamentalist?'
I am not orthodox.  I am not fundamentalist.  I would desire a
genuine peace in the region more than this pinhead  Davidsson can
ever understand.  But when he shows his willingness to dismiss an
entire culture, he proves that the only thing more brain-boggling
than his stupidity is his willingness to display his stupidity in
this newsgroup.
Please take your hatred for the essence of Judaism and shove it
up your ass.  Remember to pull your head out first.
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Organization: NONE
Lines: 49
In article <1993Apr20.000413.25123@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
|> >|> In article <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
|> >|> >04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
|> >|> >
|> >|>
|> >|> Ermenistan kasiniyor...
|> >|>
|> >|> Let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets
|> >|> into it	: Armenia is getting itchy.
|> >|>
|> >|> Esin.
|> >
|> >
henrik]Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;
henrik]ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD
henrik] KNOW that SHE WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get
henrik] away with their FAMOUS tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH
henrik] invasion of the Greek island of CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED.
Esin Terzioglu]  Your ignorance is obvious from your posting.
Esin Terzioglu]  1) Cyprus was an INDEPENDENT country with Turkish/Greek
inhabitants (NOT a Greek island like your ignorant
posting claims)
Esin Terzioglu]  2) The name should be Cyprus (in English)
Esin Terzioglu]  next time read and learn before you post.
Aside from spelling , why is that you TURKS DO NOT want to admit your
past MISTAKES ? You know TURKISH INVASION of CYPRUS was a mistake and too
bad that U.N. DID NOT do anything about it. You may ask : mistake ?
Yes, I would say. Why is that the GREEKS DID NOT INVADE CYPRUS ?
My response to the "shooting down" of a Turkish airplane over the Armenian
air space was because of the IGNORANT posting of the person from your
Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived
in their HOMELAND for 3000 years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS
BY STALIN) are the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending
themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. Agression that has NO MERCY for INOCENT
people that are costantly SHELLED with MIG-23's and othe Russian aircraft.
At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH
crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by CPR => (unconventional peace)
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 15
In article <1qvi7s$b1o@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>   First this man promotes the dissolution of the Jews through an
>intermarriage process, and then says that it will be just a bunch
>of 'fundamentalist' Jews who will object.
>
>Or does he simply mean to insult the orthodox by using the word
>'fundamentalist?'
>
It's irritating when someone mis-labels "us" as "fundamentalists",
isn't it?  This sort of thing may help us understand why some muslims
rather resent being put under this label.
Tim
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re:xSoviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 174
In article <2BD220B1.22816@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>>>I sure hope so. Because, the unspeakable crimes of the Armenians must
>>>>be righted. Armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of
>>
>>>No!  NO!  no no no no no.  It is not justifiable to right wrongs of
>>>previous years.
>Well, there is a bit: such as the German reparations to the jewish
>survivors of the Holocaust. Certainly, as such an event goes further
>into the past, reparations become less realistic.
I was convinced that no one could have a more warped sense of the
world. They were 'our' grandparents who were cold-bloodedly exterminated
by the Armenians between 1914 and 1920, not yours. And you can always
participate in 'The Turkish Genocide Day' along with millions of Turkish
and Kurdish people on April 23, 1993 in the United States and Canada.
...On this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned
justice of the restitution of Turkish and Kurdish rights and...
- We demand that the x-Soviet Armenian Government admit its
responsibility for the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, render
reparations to the Muslim people, and return the land to its
rightful owners. The recognition of the Genocide has become an
issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative that
artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed.
- We believe the time has come to demand from the the United States
that it formally recognizes the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, adopts
the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to Armenian pressures
to the contrary.
- As taxpayers of the United States, we express our vehement
protest to the present U.S. Government policy of continued
coddling, protection and unqualified assistance towards x-Soviet
Armenia.
- We also demand that the United States return to the policies
advocated by U.S. Ambassador Bristol and other enlightened statesmen,
who have undertaken a just, human and benevolent attitude towards
the rights of the Muslim people and the just resolution of their Case.
- Our territorial demands are strictly aimed at x-Soviet Armenia's.
And in article <2BAC262D.25249@news.service.uci.edu>, you have blatantly
lied:
>The Goltz article was NOT published in the Sunday Times Magazine
>on March 1, 1992, but in the Guardian Sunday Section.
Well, still anxiously awaiting...
CIS Commander Pulls Troops Out of Karabagh :
"Elif Kaban, a Reuter correspondent in Agdam, reported that after a battle
on Wednesday, Azeris were burying scores of people who died when Armenians
overran the town of Khojaly, the second-biggest Azeri settlement in the
area. 'The world is turning its back on what's happening here. We are dying
and you are just watching,' one mourner shouted at a group of journalists."
Helen Womack
The Independent, 2/29/92
Armenian Soldiers Massacre Hundreds of Fleeing Families:
"The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the
women and children.  They then turned their guns on the terrified refugees.
The few survivors later described what happened: 'That's when the real
slaughter began,' said Azer Hajiev, one of the three soldiers to survive.
'The Armenians just shot and shot. And they came in and started carving
up people with their bayonets and knives.'  A 45-year-old man who had been
shot in the back  said:' We were walking through the brush. Then they opened
up on us and people were falling all around.  My wife fell, then my child."
Thomas Goltz
Sunday Times, 3/1/92
Armenian Raid Leaves Azeris Dead or Fleeing:
"...about 1,000 of Khojaly's 10,000 people were killed in Tuesdays attack.
Azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from
the Khocaly area."
Brian Killen (Reuters)
The Washington Times, 3/2/92
Atrocity Reports Horrify Azerbaijan :
"Azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles
away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off...
'Women and children had been scalped,' said Assad Faradzev, an aide to
Karabagh's Azeri governor.  Azeri television showed pictures of one
truckload of bodies brought to the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their
faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out."
Brian Killen (Reuters)
The Washington Times, 3/3/92
Massacre By Armenians Being Reported:
"The Republic of Armenia reiterated denials that its militants had
killed 1,000 [Azeris]... But dozens of bodies scattered over the
area lent credence to Azerbaijani reports of a massacre."
(Reuters)
The New York Times, 3/3/92
Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabagh, Moldova:
"Journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some
of the civilians, and Azerbaijani officials said Armenians began shooting
at them when they sought to recover the bodies."
Fred Hiatt
The Washington Post, 3/3/92
Bodies Mark Site of Karabagh Massacre:
"A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijanis to collect their dead
and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest.  All are the bodies
of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly clorhing of workers. Of the 31
we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing
uniform.  All the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small
children. Two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children
cradled in the women's arms.  Several of them, including one small girl, had
terrible head injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they
saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground."
Anatol Lieven
The Times (London), 3/3/92
Karabagh Survivors Flee to Mountains:
"Geyush Gassanov, the deputy mayor of Khocaly, said that Armenian troops
surrounded the town after 7 pm on Tuesday. They were accompanied by six
or seven light tanks and armoured carriers.  'We thought they would just
bombard the village, as they had in the past, and then retreat.  But they
attacked, and our defence force couldn't do anything against their tanks.'
Other survivors described how they had been fired on repeatedly on their
way through the mountains to safety. 'For two days we crawled most of the
way to avoid gunfire,' Sukru Aslanov said.  His daughter was killed in the
battle for Khodjaly, and his brother and son died on the road."
Anatol Lieven
The Times (London), 3/3/92
Corpses Litter Hills in Karabagh:
"As we swooped low over the snow covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw
the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as
they ran...Suddenly there was a thump...[our Azerbaijani helicopter] had
been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post..."
Anatol Lieven
The Times (London), 3/4/92
"Police in western Azerbaijan said they had recovered the bodies of
120 Azerbaijanis killed as they fled an Armenian assault in the
disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabagh and said they were blocked from
recovering more bodies."
The Wall Street Journal, 3/4/92
Exiting Troops Attacked in Nagorno-Karabagh:
"Withdrawal halted;  Armenians Blamed...
More video footage and reports from Khocaly paint a grim picture of
widespread civilian deaths and mutilation...
One woman's feet appeared to have been bound..."
Paul Quinn-Judge
The Boston Globe, 3/4/92
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Lines: 460
In article <1993Apr19.010955.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>> Too bad. In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established
>> a vast network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two
>> continents.
>Before you go calling the kettle black, keep in mind that the
>Turkish government was a strong supporter of Nazi Germany and
>played a vital role in supplying it with oil until the Allies
>invaded Iran.  Complaining about Armenian complicity with the
>Nazis does little good when Turkey played a much bigger role.
Tell me, 'kmagnacca', were you high on 'Arromdian of ASALA/SDPA/ARF'
when you wrote that? Humane behavior and tolerance of Turks was a
legend even 500 years ago when they accepted tens of thousands of
Jews from Spain who were fleeing from the Spanish Inquisition. Again,
many Jewish families escaping from Nazi Armenians and Hitler's Nazi
Germany took refugee in Turkiye during the 1940's. Turkish people
have unselfishly given home, protection, and freedom to the Jews over
the centuries, including to thousands and thousands of them during
the Second World War. Get a life or a cup of Turkish coffee.
"History of the Jews in the Islamic Countries," chapters in Parts I and II,
Jarusalem, Zalman Shazar Center for Jewish History, 1986.
Baron, Salo W., "A Social and Religious History of the Jews," New York,
Columbia University Press, Vols. III, V, XVIII.
Benardete, Mair Jose, "Hispanic Culture and Character of the Sephardic
Jews," New York, Sepher-Hermon Press, 2nd corrected edition, 1982 (original
publication 1953).
Lewis, Bernard, eds., "Christians and Jews in the Ottoman Empire," New York,
Holmes & Meier, 1982, Vol. I, The Central Lands.
"La Turquie dan les Archives des Grand Orient de France: les loges ...,"
in Jean-Louis Bacque-Graumont and Paul Dumont, eds., Economie et Societes
dans L'Empire Ottoman, Paris, Centre National De La Reserche Scientifique,
1983.
Inalcik, Halil, "Turkish-Jewish Relations in the Ottoman Empire," 1982.
Sevilla-Sharon, Moshe, "Turkiye Yahudileri, Tarihsel Bakis," Jerusalem, The
Hebrew University, 1982.
Source: John Dewey: "The New Republic," Vol. 40, Nov. 12, 1928, pp. 268-9.
"Happy the minority [Jews] which has had no Christian nation to protect it.
And one recalls that the Jews took up their abode in 'fanatic' Turkey
when they were expelled from Europe, especially Spain, by Saintly Christians,
and they have lived here for centuries in at least as much tranquility and
liberty as their fellow Turkish subjects, all being exposed alike to the
rapacity of their common rulers. To one brought up, as most Americans have
been, in the Gladstonian and foreign-missionary tradition, the condition of
the Jews in Turkey is almost a mathematical demonstration that religious
differences have had an influence in the tragedy of Turkey only as they
were combined with aspirations for a political separation which every
nation in the world would have treated as treasonable. One readily
reaches the conclusion that the Jews in Turkey were fortunate..."
He also stated that:
"they [Armenians] traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian
invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and
fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least
a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."
TURKEY AND THE HOLOCAUST
An  interview  with  Stanford  J. Shaw  (History),  who  recently
completed  two books:  The Jews  of  the Ottoman  Empire and  the
Turkish Republic, and Turkey and  the Holocaust: Turkey's Role in
Rescuing  Turkish  and  European  Jewry  from  Nazi  Persecution,
1933-45. Shaw  chairs the undergraduate  interdepartmental degree
program in Near Eastern Studies and has organized the Program for
the Study of Ottoman and Turkish Jewry. He is affiliated with the
G. E. von Grunebaum Center for Near Eastern Studies.
Editor: How did  you come to write these two  books on Turkey and
European and Turkish Jews?
Shaw: Basically, I'm  an Ottoman historian, but  I'm also Jewish.
I've  spent twenty-five  years studying  Ottoman history,  and as
time went along, whenever I  found materials on the Ottoman Jews,
I collected  them. But  I never  did anything  with them  until a
couple of years  ago, when I suddenly realized that  1992 was the
500th  anniversary of  the  Jews being  expelled  from Spain  and
coming  to Turkey.  Then the  Sephardic Temple  down on  Wilshire
Avenue invited me  to give a series of three  lectures on Ottoman
Jewry.  These lectures  were  greatly appreciated,  and I  became
motivated to  undertake further research  to develop a  book, The
Jews of the  Ottoman Empire and the Turkish)  Republic. This book
is quite different from the  works of most Jewish historians, who
tend to look  at the Jews in any country  more from the viewpoint
of the Jews  and the Jewish community, and rely  mainly on Jewish
sources.  I  view my  subject  as  an  Ottoman historian,  and  I
approach the Jews of the Ottoman Empire largely from the point of
view of Ottoman  society, using largely Ottoman  sources. After I
finished  this book  and  sent it  to the  press,  I came  across
additional documents  relating to  Turkish Jews during  World War
II. In the completed book, I had said that Turkey had done a good
deal  to rescue  the Jews  during  World War  II, but  I did  not
actually have many details. Then I  found a batch of documents in
the Foreign Ministry archive relating to actions taken by Turkish
diplomats to  help the Jews  before and during the  Holocaust. It
was too late to add this new information to the book in press, so
I decided to  write a second book. I  conducted further research,
mainly in the archives of the  Foreign Ministry in Ankara and the
Turkish Embassy and Consulate in Paris. The result was the second
book, Turkey and  the Holocaust, which details  how Turkey helped
rescue Jews from the Nazis.
- How exactly did they do this?
The story takes  place over a number of years.  The book presents
the material in three parts, first of which deals with the period
before the Holocaust. When the Nazis  came to power in Germany in
1933,  they immediately  started  dismissing  Jews and  anti-Nazi
Germans from universities,  hospitals, scientific institutes, and
the like. Turkey at that moment was just beginning the process of
reforming its  universities, and it  saw in these Jews,  who were
being fired from their positions in Germany, a good source of new
talent to  help modernize the Turkish  universities. Within three
months  after the  Nazis  started dismissing  these Jews,  Turkey
arranged to take many of them in. They were brought to Turkey and
were   given   appointments   as  professors   in   the   Turkish
universities, as  heads of scientific institutes,  and as medical
personnel in hospitals. About 300  to 500 major Jewish professors
came to  Turkey in  the 1930s. Ernst  Reuter, a  German political
scientist,  spent the  war  years teaching  political science  in
Turkey. After  World War II,  he was  mayor of Berlin  during the
Berlin Airlift.  Fritz Neimark, a major  German Jewish economist,
came to Turkey and helped  establish a modern school of economics
in Istanbul.  A man named  Reichenbach, who was rescued  from the
Nazis by  Turkey and  spent the war  years in  Turkey, eventually
came to  UCLA, where he  became a professor of  philosophy. Other
German Jewish  emigres engaged in cultural  activities in Turkey.
One  such was  Karl  Ebert,  who had  been  a leading  theatrical
producer in Berlin until he was expelled by the Nazis. He went to
Turkey, where he  organized the Turkish National  Theater and the
Turkish National Opera  Company in Ankara, with the  help of Paul
Hindemuth. So  the first  section of the  book covers  this first
phase, when Jews were being  persecuted in Germany and rescued by
Turkey.  Oddly enough,  the  German emigres,  when  they were  in
Turkey, did not seem to think too badly of Germany. They regarded
themselves more  as Germans than Jews,  and they did not  join in
the anti-Nazi activities of the local Turkish Jewish community. I
even  found  letters  from  the Nazi  representatives  to  Turkey
praising these German Jewish refugees for their work in promoting
the idea  of German  culture. Even though  these people  had been
persecuted by the Nazis and rescued by the Turks, they shared the
Nazis' feelings of  Aryan racial superiority over  the Turks. The
second part of the book deals  with the Holocaust, which began in
1940 when the Nazis occupied France.  In Europe at that time, and
especially in France, there were  about 20,000 Turkish Jews. They
had migrated to Europe for various reasons from about the turn of
the century onward. Most of them had settled in Europe during the
Turkish war for  independence after World War I,  when Greece was
threatening to overrun Turkey. The Greeks had persecuted the Jews
throughout the nineteenth century, and the Jews feared what might
happen to them if the Greeks  took over in Turkey. Many Jews fled
to France during  the 1920s and 1930s. Many  also abandoned their
Turkish  citizenship and  became  French  citizens. Suddenly  the
Nazis invaded France in 1940 and started introducing all sorts of
anti-Jewish laws.  The Turkish  Jews soon found  that it  was not
worth very much to  be a French Jew, but that it  was worth a lot
to be a Turkish Jew.
- How so?
Turkey remained neutral through most of World War II. It retained
its embassies  and consulates in all  the Nazi-occupied countries
until it finally entered the war on the side of the Allies at the
end of 1944. During the war,  therefore, Turkey was in a position
to  defend its  citizens  against anti-Jewish  measures, and  the
actions that  Turkish diplomats took  form the second  chapter of
the  book. Turkish  diplomats  who were  stationed  in France  in
particular intervened to protect Jews of Turkish citizenship from
the Nazis. For those Turkish  Jews who had retained their Turkish
citizenship,  there  was  generally  no  problem.  If  they  were
arrested and sent to a  concentration camp, the Turkish diplomats
would  communicate with  the  commanders of  the  camp and  other
officials and say in effect:  "These people are Turkish citizens.
You  can't do  this  to  them." And  the  Turkish  Jews would  be
released.  If  their  businesses were  confiscated,  the  Turkish
diplomats would protest and the businesses would be restored.
The Nazis  in general  wanted to keep  the friendship  of Turkey.
They hoped to be able to use  Turkey as a gateway for an invasion
of the Middle  East, and they also wanted to  obtain chromium and
manganese from Turkey. In order  to keep Turkish friendship, they
usually accepted  these interventions on behalf  of Turkish Jews.
The Turkish  diplomats sometimes went to  the concentration camps
to secure the release of Turkish Jews. At times they even boarded
trains hauling  Turkish Jews  to Auschwitz for  extermination and
succeeded in getting them off the train. Most of the foreign Jews
were sent  to a concentration  camp at  a place called  Drancy in
Paris,  and that's  where  most of  the  intercession by  Turkish
consuls took place.
The greater problem came with  the Turkish Jews who had abandoned
their  Turkish citizenship  and had  become French  citizens. The
consuls couldn't declare that  these people were Turkish citizens
because  they were  not.  My book  includes  photographs of  Jews
lining  up in  front  of  the Turkish  consulate,  either to  get
passports to  return to Turkey or  to get a restoration  of their
Turkish  citizenship.   This  was   a  bureaucratic   matter,  so
processing the application would take  some time. In the meantime
it was a  real emergency, because the Nazis would  arrest Jews on
the streets for almost nothing.  The Nazis would even arrest them
if they  had radios  or telephones  in their  apartments, because
radios and  telephones were  forbidden to Jews.  To take  care of
these  former  Turkish Jews,  the  Turkish  diplomats invented  a
document called  gayri muntazem  vatandash, or  "irregular fellow
citizen." The  document said in  effect "This person is  a former
Turkish  citizen  who has  applied  for  the restoration  of  his
Turkish citizenship.  In the meantime  we would appreciate  it if
you  would treat  him  as  if he  were  a  Turkish citizen."  The
diplomats wrote  the document in  Turkish and put their  seals on
it. Since  the Nazis could  not read  Turkish, on the  whole they
accepted  these papers  as certificates  of citizenship.  By this
means, the  Turkish diplomats were  able to rescue many  Jews who
had relinquished their Turkish citizenship.
Actually the Nazis were of two minds about the Turkish defense of
Jews. On the one hand the  Nazi Foreign Ministry, which wanted to
retain the friendship of Turkey,  was in favor of accepting these
interventions. On the other hand, Himmler and Eichmann wanted all
Jews exterminated.  At times  Himmler and  Eichmann were  able to
prevail and some  of the Turkish Jews were sent  off to Auschwitz
before the Turkish consuls could do anything.
- Do you have statistics on how many Turkish Jews were rescued?
There were about  20,000 Turkish Jews in Europe  before world War
II,  about 10,000  of whom  were living  in France.  Most of  the
information in this section of  the book relates to the situation
in France. I have published  the letters that the Turkish consuls
sent to  the Nazi  officials and  the letters  that came  back in
reply. Generally the Nazis said  that if the Turkish consul would
present  documents  certifying   that  arrested  individuals  are
Turkish citizens,  and promise  to send them  out of  France, the
Nazis would release them from the concentration camp. The Turkish
consuls also organized  special trains to take  Turkish Jews from
Nazi-occupied  territory   back  to  Turkey.  These   trains  ran
regularly in 1943 and 1944. The Nazis gave the Turkish Jews visas
so they  could pass out  of Nazi  territory, but the  trains were
often  held  up by  the  Nazi-influenced  governments of  Eastern
Europe  -   Croatia,  Serbia,   and  Bulgaria  -   because  these
governments really didn't want the Jews to escape. As a result of
the Turkish consuls' efforts, about 3,000 to 4,000 of the Turkish
Jews  in  France were  saved.  Another  3,000  were sent  off  to
Auschwitz, where  most of them  died. The remaining  3,000 either
escaped  across the  border into  Spain or  fled to  the area  of
southern France occupied  by the Italians, who  treated Jews much
better than  the Nazis did.  At the  end of 1943,  however, Italy
fell out of the war, and that was the end for those Jews as well.
Incidentally, the Turkish diplomats  in Nazi-occupied Greece also
worked to rescue Jews in that country.
- The second part of your  book then deals with Turkish diplomats
acting to  rescue Jews of  Turkish citizenship or  Turkish origin
from Nazi persecution.
Yes,  and  there  is  an  aside   I  might  add  here:  In  their
interventions on  behalf of Turkish  Jews, the Turks  cited their
treaty with Germany which stated  that Turkish citizens in German
territory would be treated the same as German citizens in Turkey.
On  that basis  the Turks  maintained  that the  Nazis could  not
discriminate  against Turkish  citizens who  are Jews.  The Nazis
claimed  (and the  Vichy government  agreed) that  they were  not
discriminating  because  they  were treating  all  Jews  equally.
Turkey  protested,   saying,  "You  are  dividing   our  citizens
according to religion, but the Turkish constitution requires that
all  citizens   be  treated  equally,  regardless   of  religion.
Therefore, you cannot single  out Turkish Jews." American consuls
in  Paris,  by contrast,  accepted  the  Nazi argument  and  told
American Jews  who were being  persecuted by the Nazis  that they
couldn't do  anything about  it, because  the American  Jews were
being treated the same as other  Jews. The third part of the book
takes place in Turkey, which  was the principal center during the
Holocaust for activities aimed at  the rescue of Eastern European
Jews. The  kwish Agency, an  organization established by  Jews in
Palestine to help resettle Jews to Palestine, set up an office in
Istanbul  in 1940  under the  leadership of  Chaim Barlas.  Other
Jewish organizations in Palestine, especially the kibbutzes, also
sent representatives  to Istanbul  to set up  headquarters. These
groups first tried to contact Jews  in Eastern Europe to find out
what was  happening. Today  we know about  the Holocaust,  but at
that  time people  didn't know  what  was going  on. They  didn't
imagine the Nazis could do the things they were doing. And so the
first step was to get information, and the Turkish government let
them use the Turkish mails to send letters to their relatives and
friends  in Eastern  Europe. The  Jewish organizations  found out
what was happening when they  received replies. Later on when the
Nazis  began  to  intercept   such  letters,  the  Jews  received
assistance  also from  the  Vatican nuncio,  Angelo Roncali,  who
served as  the Vatican  representative in  Istanbul from  1935 to
1944  and   later  became  Pope   John  XXIII.  As   the  Vatican
representative  during the  war, he  used the  facilities of  the
Catholic  Church to  supplement what  the Turkish  government was
doing to  assist Jewish  agencies in  contacting Jews  in Eastern
Europe.  With the  cooperation of  the Turkish  government, these
agencies  then  sent  hard  currency, food,  clothing,  and  even
railroad  and  steamship  tickets   to  Jews  in  Czechoslovakia,
Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary. They weren't able to help much in
Poland because  by then the  Nazis had  wiped out almost  all the
Polish Jews.  Whenever possible the rescue  agencies arranged for
the Jews to get out of Eastern Europe either by train through the
so called  Orient Express route  to Istanbul, or by  boat through
the Black Sea to Istanbul.
Turkey was not eager for all  these refugees to remain within its
borders during  the war, because  it was being blockaded  and was
suffering   terrible  shortages   of  food   and  clothing.   The
government,   therefore,   facilitated   the  movement   of   the
non-Turkish Jewish  refugees from Turkey to  Palestine, either by
the Taurus  Express Railroad through  the mountains to  Syria and
Palestine,  or by  small boats  across the  eastern Mediterranean
from southern  Turkey to  Palestine. These efforts  were bitterly
opposed not only  by the Nazis, but also by  the British, who did
not want  any more Jewish  immigration to Palestine  because they
feared it would hurt their  relations with the Arabs. The British
constantly pressured the Turkish  government to stop this traffic
and send those Jews back. In  a few cases the Turkish government,
yielding  to  British pressure,  did  send  the boats  back.  For
example, in  one incident,  the steamship  Struma, with  some 700
Jewish  refugees  from Romania,  was  sent  back by  the  Turkish
government  as  a  result  of the  intervention  of  the  British
ambassador. When  that ship was  sunk by a Soviet  submarine, all
were lost except one person.  Nevertheless, all told, the Turkish
government allowed no fewer than 100,000 Eastern European Jews to
pass through  Turkish territory and  move on to  Palestine during
the Second World War. The Turkish authorities also provided these
refugees with facilities  and money, and gave  them permission to
send money and food out of the country.
- Many  of these  Jews who  passed  through Turkey  may still  be
living in Israel.
Yes, and  their children. But  let's return  for a moment  to the
first group, the Turkish Jews who  came from Europe. They did not
go  on  to   Palestine;  they  stayed  in  Turkey.   It  was  the
non-Turkish, Eastern  European Jews who passed  through Turkey en
route to Palestine. Their story is very interesting.
- And you have rescued it from obscurity.
Many studies have been made of the Holocaust, but most of them do
not focus on the Eastern European or Middle Eastern Jews. Most of
the scholarship  has centered  on the  Western European  Jews, of
whom 6 million were massacred by the Nazis. My study deals with a
much smaller  number of  people. I  have tried  to round  out the
picture,  and I  hope my  book  will persuade  other scholars  to
undertake further investigations in the history of Eastern Jews.
When it  comes to numbers,  the German Jews were  also relatively
small in number. Most of the millions slain were Polish Jews. The
rescue  of  100,000  Eastern  European   Jews  may  not  seem  so
significant  compared  with  the  total of  6  million  who  were
murdered, but it meant a lot to those who were saved.
About  three-fourths   of  the  book  consists   of  documents  -
translations  of many  documents. They  are included  because the
story is not well known. Not  only are people in the West unaware
of  the courageous  actions of  the Turkish  diplomats; even  the
people of Turkey  did not know the story. I  felt that they would
not  fully understand  this  remarkable  achievement unless  they
could see the documents.
- What languages are used in the documents?
Most of them are in Turkish  or French; some are in Hebrew. There
is a great  deal of material in Hebrew about  the organization of
the boats  going to Palestine, the  passengers, and so on,  but I
did not go into those details extensively. I describe mostly what
Turkey did, so  most of my documents are in  Turkish or French. A
few documents are  in English. The Jewish groups  in Istanbul did
not necessarily  cooperate with  one another  to rescue  Jews; in
fact, they often fought with  one another. They took turns trying
to  get  the  Turkish  government to  deport  rival  groups.  For
example, some of  the kibbutz groups felt that  the Jewish Agency
was  run by  Western European  Jews who  were interested  only in
helping  Western  European  Jews.  Finally,  in  1944,  President
Roosevelt sent a personal  representative, Ira Hirschman, who had
been an executive of Bloomingdale's  department store in New York
City, and  Hirschman managed to reconcile  their differences. The
documents related to his mission are in English.
I also obtained many documents  from Serge Klarsfeld, a Holocaust
historian in France,  who mainly worked on the  French Jews. (His
father was  killed by  the Nazis.)  He gave  me materials  he had
gathered in the German archives on  the Turkish Jews, so I didn't
personally consult the German archives.  I believe that much more
can  be learned  from the  German  archives, and  I hope  someone
someday will make the effort.
- This new book fits in well with your teaching, doesn't it?
Right. I'm  giving a  course on  the history of  the Jews  of the
Ottoman  Empire.  I first  gave  the  course  two years  ago.  In
addition to  research, writing, and teaching,  I've been actively
involved in  the commemoration  of the  500th anniversary  of the
coming of the  Jews to the Ottoman Empire. Among  other things, I
helped organize  a large international conference  on the subject
which was held in Istanbul in 1992.
- Now that your  books are finished and the  conference has taken
place, what do you plan to do next?
I'm working on two new books. One is a history of the Turkish War
for Independence, which took place  after World War I, during the
years  1918 to  1923. The  Turks warded  off the  efforts of  the
victorious  European   powers  to  occupy  Turkey   and  end  its
independence. The  second book is  a study of Sultan  Abdul Hamid
II, the last major sultan, who ruled from 1876 to 1909. He was an
important modernizer in his own  way, although he also suppressed
all sorts of political movements.
Stanford  J. Shaw  received  a B.A.  in History  and  an M.A.  in
British History. He then shifted to Near Eastern History, earning
a second M.A.  and a Ph.D. at Princeton. As  a doctoral candidate
at Princeton, he  spent two years abroad, studying  at the School
of  Oriental  and  African  Studies, University  of  London;  the
University of  Cairo, the American  University at Cairo,  and the
University of  Istanbul. He  taught at  Harvard before  coming to
UCLA in 1966. His postdoctoral research has been supported by the
John Simon Guggenheim Foundation, the American Research Institute
in  Turkey, the  Social  Science Research  Council, the  National
Endowment for the Humanities, the Fulbright Program, and ISOP. He
has  received  honorary  degrees   from  Harvard  University  and
Bosporus University, Bebek, Istanbul, Turkey, and medals of honor
for lifetime contributions  to the fields of  Islamic and Turkish
studies from the Center for Research in Islamic History, Art, and
Culture in  Istanbul and from  the American Friends of  Turkey in
Washington,  D.C. In  addition to  undertaking many  professional
service activities and public lectures  in both the United States
and Turkey,  Shaw has  also produced eight  books and  one edited
volume. His  History of  the Ottoman Empire  and Modem  Turkey (2
vols.)  has been  published  in many  editions  (six editions  or
reprints  from 1977-1991),  and  translated  into Turkish  (1983,
1991) and French (1984). His book  The Jews of the Ottoman Empire
and  the  Turkish  Republic  (MacMillan,  London,  and  New  York
University Press, 1992) will  be published in Turkish translation
by the Turkish  Historical Society, Istanbul. His  Turkey and the
Holocaust: Turkey's  Role in Rescuing Turkish  and European Jewry
from Nazi  Persecution, 1933-1945 will be  published by Macmillan
Publishers,  London, and  New York  University Press  in 1993.  A
pamphlet summarizing the book was published in Ankara, Turkey, in
1992.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Given the massacre of the Muslim population of Karabag by Armenians...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Lines: 124
In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;
>ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW that
>SHE WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with their FAMOUS
>tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion of the Greek island of
>CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED.
And the 'Turkish Karabag' is next. As for 'Cyprus', In 1974, Turkiye
stepped into Cyprus to preserve the lives of the Turkish population
there. This is nothing but a simple historical fact. Unfortunately,
the intervention was too late at least for some of the victims. Mass
graves containing numerous bodies of women and children already showed
what fate had been planned for a peaceful minority.
The problems in Cyprus have their origin in decades of
oppression of the Turkish population by the Greek Cypriot
officials and their violation of the co-founder status of
the Turks set out in the constitution. The coup d'etat
engineered by Greece in 1974 to execute a final solution
to the Turkish problem was the savage blow that invoked
Turkiye's intervention. Turkiye intervened reluctantly and
only as a last resort after exhausting all other avenues
consulting with Britain and Greece as the other two signatories
to the treaty to protect the integrity of Cyprus. There simply
was not any expansionist motivation in the Turkish action at
all. This is in dramatic contrast to the Greek motivation which
was openly expansionist, stated as 'Enosis,' union with Greece.
Since the creation of independent Cyprus in 1960, the Turkish
population, although smaller, legally had status as the co-founder
of the republic with the Greek population.
The Greek Cypriots, with the support of 'Enosis'-minded
Greeks in the mainland, have consistently ignored that
status and portrayed the Island as a Greek island with
a minority population of Turks. The Turks of Cyprus are
not a minority in a Greek Republic and they found the
only way they could show that was to assert their
autonomy in a separate republic.
Turkiye is not satisfied with the status quo. She would
rather not be involved with the island. But, given the
dismal record of brutal Greek oppression of the Turkish
population in Cyprus, she simply cannot leave the fate
of the island's Turks in the hands of the Greeks until
the Turkish side is satisfied with whatever accord
the two communities finally reach to guarantee that
history will not repeat itself to rob Turkish Cypriots
of their rights, liberties and their very lives.
Source: 'Cyprus: The Tale Of An Island,' A. H. Rizvi, p. 42
21-12-1963 Throughout Cyprus
"Following the Greek Cypriot premeditated onslaught of 21 December,
1963, the Turkish Sectors all over Cyprus were completely besieged
by Greeks; all telephonic, telegraphic and postal communications
between these sectors were cut off and the Turkish Cypriot
Community's contact with each other and with the outside world
was thus prevented."
21-12-63 -- 31-12-63 Turkish Quarter of Nicosia and suburbs
"Greek Cypriot armed elements broke into hundreds of Turkish
homes and fired at the unarmed occupants with automatic
weapons killing at random many Turks, including women, children
and elderly persons (51 Turks were killed and 82 wounded). They
also carried away as hostages more than 700 Turks, including
women and children, whom they forced to walk bare-footed and
in night-dresses across rough fields and river beds."
21-12-63 -- 12-12-64 Throughout Cyprus
"The Greek Cypriot Administration deprived Turkish Cypriots
including Ministers, MPs, and Turkish members of the Public
services of the republic, of their right to freedom of movement."
In his report No. S/6102 of 12 December, 1964 to the Security
Council, the UN Secretary-General stated in this respect the
following:
"Restrictions on the free movement of civilians have been one of
the major features of the situation in Cyprus since the early
stages of the disturbances, these restrictions have inflicted
considerable hardship on the population, especially the Turkish
Cypriot Community, and have kept tension high."
25-9-1964 -- 31-3-1968 Throughout Cyprus
"Supply of petrol was completely denied to the Turkish sections."
Makarios Addresses UN Security Council On 19 July 1974
After being Ousted by the Greek Junta Coup
"In the beginning I wish to express my sincere thanks to all the
members of the Security Council for the great interest they have
shown in the critical situation which has been created in Cyprus
after the coup organized by the military regime in Greece and
carried out by the Greek army officers who were serving in the
National Guard and were commanding it.
[..]
13-3-1975 On the road travelling to the South to the freedom of
the North
"A Turkish woman was seriously wounded and her four-month old
baby was riddled with bullets from an automatic weapon fired by
a Greek Cypriot mobile patrol which had ambushed the car in which
the mother and her baby were travelling to the Turkish region.
The baby died in her mother's arms.
This wanton murder of a four-month-old baby, which shocked foreign
observers as much as the Turkish Community, was not committed by
irresponsible persons, but by members of the Greek Cypriot security
forces. According to the mother's statement the Greek police patrol
had chased their car and deliberately fired upon it."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian scholars on the extermination of 2.5 million Muslim people.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 288
In article <735251412@amazon.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Eduard Wiener) writes:
>	   Why don't you post this in English, Mike?
>	   This appears to mean -- "Milan, it seems that
>	   some Greek has fucked you."
Is that what turns you on? The truth needs to be told over and over
again. There are Armenians who of course witnessed the Armenian genocide
of 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914-1920 but their voices of truth
are suppressed today in the hollow din of anti-Turkish/Muslim campaign
by the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle of the fascist
x-Soviet Armenian Government. Well, that is what I saw in the library.
What's your problem with this?
Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934.
pp. 17-18.
"It seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent
part of the revolutionary activities of the Dashnag leaders of the Caucasus.
Organized to fight the Turks, these chieftains have been more successful
in their fight against their Armenian opponents in Turkey, and the Caucasus,
very often defenseless and innocent."
p. 38.
"The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish Armenian section
of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the
Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war...and a call was sent for
Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."
p. 38.
"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of
such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer
regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."
Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923)
(287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 184 (second paragraph)
"I had received further very definite information of horrors that
had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as
I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their
treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from
Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not
be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their
troops being without discipline and not under effective control,
atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should
with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."
p. 177 (third paragraph)
"Armenian troops, who, having pillaged and destroyed all the
Moslem villages in the plain...."
"Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the
plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of
their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security
and protection..."
p. 178 (first paragraph)
"In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched
for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of
such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible
tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as
to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware
of the existence, although they had been unable to find them."
p. 179 (first paragraph)
"Shortly afterwards the head of the miserable column appeared. There
were in all about 200 persons, mostly old men and women and children,
with a few ox-carts, ponies, and donkeys, carrying all their worldly
possessions, except a few sheep that they were driving before them.
Their leader interviewed Bekir Bey, and was told to keep farther on
into the hills, where he would be able to cross the frontier into
Turkey unmolested by his enemies."
p. 181 (first paragraph)
"the Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish line with
artillery, with probably a large force in support."
p. 175 (first paragraph)
"The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
be referred to in due course."
The following news from Turan News Agency in Baku-Azerbaijan
is brought to you as a service of:
<Azerbaijan Aydinlig Association>
P.O. Box 14571
Berkeley, CA 94701
FAX: (804) 490-3832
Email: farid@mem.odu.edu
* AZERBAIJAN'S GOVERNMENT APPEALS TO COMPATRIOTS ALL OVER THE WORLD
* 60 REFUGEES FROM KELBAJAR PERISHED IN THEIR ESCAPE LORRIES
* SITUATION IN THE REGION OF KELBAJAR
* ARMENIAN ARMY CONTINUES ATTACK ON FIZULI
* PRESS-CONFERENCE OF THE CHIEF OF PRESS-SERVICE OF PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN
* AZERBAIJANIS PICKET IN FRONT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF RUSSIA
* PICKET OF SADVALERS IN MOSCOW
* ATTACK OF ARMENIAN UNITS STOPPED
* STATEMENT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF AZERBAIJAN
AZERBAIJAN'S GOVERNMENT APPEALS TO COMPATRIOTS ALL OVER THE WORLD
BAKU (APRIL 5) TURAN: Today, Azerbaijan's government appealed
to Azeris all over the world in connection with escalation of the
Armenian aggression against the republic.
It is stressed in appeal that the experience of five-years of fighting
for independence from imperial chains shows a grim process . The war
against Azerbaijan under the pretence of protecting the human rights of
the Armenians of Ukhari (Upper) Garabag, has meant the destruction of
Azeri villages and towns, occupation of 10 percent of the territory, 60
thousand new refugees in addition to 500 thousand already in place.
This is all the price of fighting for liberty from Russian imperial rule,
is said in the document.
Azerbaijan's government appeals to all compatriots to make every
effort to inform the people of the world about the truth in Azerbaijan,
and to assistance in solving the problems facing the young state.
It is stressed in the appeal that there is urgent need for medicine,
food, experienced doctors and financial help to settle refugees from
Kelbajar, Fizuli and Lachin regions, and to render medical aid for the
sick and the wounded men.--O--
60 REFUGEES FROM KELBAJAR PERISHED IN THEIR ESCAPE LORRIES
BAKU (APRIL 5) TURAN: Today, during the evacuation from Kelbajar
region, 60 refugees on board two lorries were killed in the fire from the
Armenian Tanks on the only road to leave Kelbajar. According to press
-service of Azerbaijan president, no one survived the tragedy. --O--
SITUATION IN THE REGION OF KELBAJAR
BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Attempts to evacuate the rest of 15,000
citizens, encircled on alpine villages of the region of Kelbajar
went on within the last twenty-four hours. Evacuation helicopters
could not land near these villages because of shelling from the
Armenian side and existence of fog. Measures are undertaken to air-drop
food and medicine to the encircled people.
Several hundred people succeed within the last twenty-four hours to
get out of the region of Kelbajar via mountain range. Refugees are
settled in the neighboring regions of Azerbaijan and in Ganja.
Authorities face serious problem with rendering refugees medical
aid and food. The number of refugees from Kelbajar is over 40,000 people.
Azerbaijan is not capable of handling a disaster of this magnitude.--0--
ARMENIAN ARMY CONTINUES ATTACK ON FIZULI
BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: The region of Fizuli of Azerbaijan,
situated outside of the territory of Daglig (Nagorno) Garabag, has been
subjected to heaviest attacks of Armenian army for the fourth day. About
30 armored technique and more than 500 soldiers of the enemy are taking
part in the attack.
Armenian units broke the defence line of the azeri forces and occupied
the ruling height from where the town is shelled from "Grad" installations,
this morning. There is heavy destructions in the town and more than 20
people are dead. Population of the town is hastily evacuated.--0--
PRESS-CONFERENCE OF THE CHIEF OF PRESS-SERVICE OF PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN
BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Fifty-five thousand refugees from the region
of Kelbajar were taken out by 11 o'clock on April 5, informed the chief
of the press-service of president of Azerbaijan, Arif Aliev, today.
Journalists were also informed at the press-conference that
International Red Cross is helping to accept and render refugees medical
aid. There is an urgent need to supply the refugees with tents, food and
medical aid.
Arif Aliev informed that as a result of the ongoing tragedy brought
on by the latest aggression of Armenia, the leadership of Azerbaijan
intends to appeal to Azerbaijanis and all those who treasure human life
all over the world for help.
Concerning the reaction of the international community to aggression
of Armenia, Aliev said the department of state of the USA has expressed
its anxiety to leadership of Armenia.
Participants of peace efforts in Daglig (Nagorno) Garabag under
CSCE, Rafaelli, Mareska and Chetin strongly blamed the aggression of
Armenia against Azerbaijan.
Leader of press-service informed that tomorrow ambassador of
Azerbaijan in Russia, Hikmet Haji-zade, will conduct a press-conference
in Moscow. Detailed information on latest events in the region of
Kelbajar of Azerbaijan will be given at the press-conference.--0--
AZERBAIJANIS PICKET IN FRONT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF RUSSIA
BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Azerbaijanis, living in Moscow, picketed
in front of the building of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia.
Picket was conducted as a token of protest against participation of
Russian units in capture of the region of Kelbajar of Azerbaijan by
Armenians. About 100 people took part in the picket, organized by
Azerbaijani society "Dayag".--0--
PICKET OF SADVALERS IN MOSCOW
BAKU (5 APRIL) 30-40 members of "Sadval" society picketed before
the building of permanent representation of Azerbaijan in Moscow.
Picketers were demanding the return of Lezghins lands, as if annexed
by Azerbaijan.
Ambassador of Azerbaijan in Moscow, Hikmet Haji-zade classified
this action as provocation aimed at creating a further inter-ethnic
conflict in Azerbaijan. He marked in his talk with the Turan
correspondent that he does not rule out a connection between the
Armenian aggression in the region of Kelbajar and this anti-
azerbaijani action of the "Sadval" society in Moscow. He also
marked that 30-40 people do not mean the Lezghian nationality in
the whole.
Society of Lezghins, "Sadval", registered in Moscow in 1990,
demands the creation of a Lezghistan state, which never existed
before on the northern territories of Azerbaijan.--0--
ATTACK OF ARMENIAN UNITS STOPPED
BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Attack of Armenian army on the town of
Fizuli, which began in the last twenty-four hours, is stopped, informs
the press-service of the Ministry of Defence of Azerbaijan.
In the result of undertaken measures, 6 tanks and a number of
the attackers were destroyed. Advance units of the Armenian army
retreated several kilometers.
Chairman of the parliament, Isa Gambar, visited the town of
Fizuli and met with commanders of the units of the national army
and local citizens, today.--0--
STATEMENT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF AZERBAIJAN
BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Azerbaijan
issued a statement in connection with aggression of Armenia in the
region of Kelbajar of Azerbaijan.
It is stated in the statement that regular units of the armed
forces of Armenia captured the town of Kelbajar on April 3 .
Attack of Armenian units, which began on March 27 deep in the
territory of Azerbaijan still continues. Armenia has occupied at
present 7500 sq.km of the territory of Azerbaijan.
Spreading of Armenian aggression far away from Ukhari (Upper)
Garabag proves that the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflicts has entered a
specially dangerous phase. This is the result of non-recognition of
Armenia as an aggressor by the international community, is marked
in the document.
It is stressed in the statement that the units of the 7th Russian
army are participating in the Armenian attack. This casts doubt on
the sincerity of Russian mediation efforts in finding a peaceful
solution to the conflict.
It is marked in conclusion that aggressive actions of Armenia
have wrecked the negotiation process under aegis of CSCE.
The document contains the appeal to the world community to stop
Armenian aggression and to use political and economic sanctions
against the aggressor.--0--
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Nazi Armenian Philosophy: Race above everything and before everything.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 155
In article <1993Apr19.234534.18368@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>   Buch of CRAP and you know it. Nagarno-Karabagh has ALWAYS been PART
>   of ARMENIA and it was STALIN who GAVE IT to the AZERIS. Go back and
>   review the HISTORY.
If a 'dog's prayers were answered, bones would rain from the sky.
Did you know that the word 'Karabag' itself is a 'Turkish' name?
Before 1827, before the Russians and their 'zavalli kole' Armenians,
drove all the Turks/Muslims out, it was a Turkish majority town. Well,
anyway, it is not surprising that Armenians also collaborated with the
Nazis.
"Wholly opportunistic the Dashnaktzoutun have been variously
pro-Nazi, pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish,
as well as anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and
anti-Soviet - whichever was expedient."[1]
[1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), 'Cairo to Damascus,'
Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1951, p. 438.
As a dear friend put it, the Tzeghagrons (Armenian Racial Patriots)
was the youth organization of the Dashnaktzoutun. It was based in
Boston (where ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle is located) but
had followers in Armenian colonies all over the world. Literally
Tzeghagron means 'to make a religion of one's race.' The architect
of the Armenian Racial Patriots was Garegin Nezhdeh, a Nazi Armenian
who became a key leader of collaboration with Hitler in World War II.
In 1933, he had been invited to the United States by the Central
Committee of the Dashnaktzoutun to inspire and organize the
American-Armenian youth. Nezhdeh succeeded in unifying many local
Armenian youth groups in the Tzeghagrons. Starting with 20
chapters in the initial year, the Tzeghagrons grew to 60 chapters
and became the largest and most powerful Nazi Armenian organization.
Nezhdeh also provided the Tzeghagrons with a philosophy:
"The Racial Religious beliefs in his racial blood as a deity.
Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first."[1]
[1] Quoted in John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), "The
Armenian Displaced Persons," in 'Armenian Affairs,' Winter,
1949-50, p. 19, footnote.
Now wait, there is more.
THE GRUESOME extent of February's killings of Azeris by Armenians
in the town  of Hojali is at last emerging  in Azerbaijan - about
600 men,  women and  children dead  in the  worst outrage  of the
four-year war over Nagorny Karabakh.
The figure  is drawn  from Azeri investigators,  Hojali officials
and casualty lists published in the Baku press. Diplomats and aid
workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates.
The 25  February attack on Hojali  by Armenian forces was  one of
the last moves  in their four-year campaign to  take full control
of Nagorny Karabakh,  the subject of a new  round of negotiations
in Rome on Monday. The bloodshed was something between a fighting
retreat and  a massacre, but  investigators say that most  of the
dead were civilians. The awful  number of people killed was first
suppressed by  the fearful  former Communist government  in Baku.
Later  it  was blurred  by  Armenian  denials and  grief-stricken
Azerbaijan's wild  and contradictory  allegations of up  to 2,000
dead.
The State Prosecuter, Aydin Rasulov,  the cheif investigator of a
15-man  team  looking  into  what Azerbaijan  calls  the  "Hojali
Disaster", said  his figure of 600  people dead was a  minimum on
preliminary  findings.  A similar  estimate  was  given by  Elman
Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali. An  even higher one was printed in
the Baku newspaper  Ordu in May - 479 dead  people named and more
than 200 bodies reported unidentified.  This figure of nearly 700
dead is quoted as official by Leila Yunusova, the new spokeswoman
of the Azeri Ministry of Defence.
FranCois Zen  Ruffinen, head  of delegation of  the International
Red Cross  in Baku, said  the Muslim imam  of the nearby  city of
Agdam had reported a figure of  580 bodies received at his mosque
from  Hojali, most  of  them  civilians. "We  did  not count  the
bodies. But  the figure seems  reasonable. It is no  fantasy," Mr
Zen Ruffinen said. "We have some idea since we gave the body bags
and products to wash the dead."
Mr  Rasulov endeavours  to give  an unemotional  estimate of  the
number of  dead in the  massacre. "Don't  get worked up.  It will
take  several months  to  get a  final  figure," the  43-year-old
lawyer said at his small office.
Mr Rasulov  knows about these  things. It  took him two  years to
reach  a firm  conclusion that  131  people were  killed and  714
wounded  when  Soviet  troops  and tanks  crushed  a  nationalist
uprising in Baku in January 1990.
Those  nationalists, the  Popular  Front, finally  came to  power
three weeks  ago and  are applying pressure  to find  out exactly
what  happened when  Hojali, an  Azeri town  which lies  about 70
miles from the border with Armenia, fell to the Armenians.
Officially, 184 people have so  far been certified as dead, being
the  number of  people that  could be  medically examined  by the
republic's forensic department. "This  is just a small percentage
of the dead," said Rafiq Youssifov, the republic's chief forensic
scientist. "They were the only bodies brought to us. Remember the
chaos and the fact that we are  Muslims and have to wash and bury
our dead within 24 hours."
Of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14
years old.  Gunshots killed  151 people,  shrapnel killed  20 and
axes or  blunt instruments  killed 10.  Exposure in  the highland
snows killed the last three.  Thirty-three people showed signs of
deliberate mutilation, including ears,  noses, breasts or penises
cut off and  eyes gouged out, according  to Professor Youssifov's
report. Those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those
believed to have been killed, Mr Rasulov said.
Files  from  Mr  Rasulov's  investigative  commission  are  still
disorganised -  lists of 44  Azeri militiamen are dead  here, six
policemen there,  and in handwriting  of a mosque  attendant, the
names of  111 corpses brought to  be washed in just  one day. The
most heartbreaking account from  850 witnesses interviewed so far
comes  from Towfiq  Manafov,  an Azeri  investigator  who took  a
helicopter  flight  over  the  escape route  from  Hojali  on  27
February.
"There were too many bodies of  dead and wounded on the ground to
count properly: 470-500  in Hojali, 650-700 people  by the stream
and the road and 85-100  visible around Nakhchivanik village," Mr
Manafov  wrote in  a  statement countersigned  by the  helicopter
pilot.
"People waved up  to us for help. We saw  three dead children and
one  two-year-old alive  by  one  dead woman.  The  live one  was
pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. We tried to land but
Armenians started a barrage against  our helicopter and we had to
return."
There  has been  no consolidation  of  the lists  and figures  in
circulation because  of the political  upheavals of the  last few
months and the  fact that nobody knows exactly who  was in Hojali
at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages
taken over by Armenian forces.
THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by CPR => (unconventianal peace)
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 36
In article <1993Apr19.223054.10273@cirrus.com> chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:
>Now we have strong evidence of where the CPR really stands.
>Unbelievable and disgusting.  It only proves that we must
>never forget...
>
>
>>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>
>Not so unconventional.  Eugenic solutions to the Jewish Problem
>have been suggested by Northern Europeans in the past.
>
>  Eugenics: a science that deals with the improvement (as by
>  control of human mating) of hereditory qualities of race
>  or breed.  -- Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary.
>
>>I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
>>well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
>>discussion and enrichment.
>>
>>Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND
>
>Critical comment: you can take the Nazi flag and Holocaust photos
>off of your bedroom wall, Elias; you'll never succeed.
>
>-- Chris Metcalfe
Chris, solid job at discussing the inherent Nazism in Mr. Davidsson's post.
Oddly, he has posted an address for hate mail, which I think we should
all utilize.  And Elias,
Wie nur dem Koph nicht alle Hoffnung schwindet,
Der immerfort an schalem Zeuge klebt?
Peace,
pete
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel
Lines: 66
Nntp-Posting-Host: taupe.cc.utexas.edu
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Lines: 66
In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: Ten questions about Israel
>
>
> Ten questions to Israelis
> -------------------------
>
> I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
> provide
>  accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
> indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
> people around me.
>
> 1.      Is it true that the Israeli authorities don't recognize
> Israeli nationality ? And that ID cards, which Israeli citizens
> must carry at all times, identify people as Jews or Arabs, not as
> Israelis ?
That's true. Israeli ID cards do not identify people
as Israelies. Smart huh?
> 3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
> could you provide any evidence ?
Yes. There's one warhead in my parent's backyard in
Beer Sheva (that's only some 20 miles from Dimona,
you know). Evidence? I saw it!
> 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
> individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
> identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
> state secrets ?
Yes. But unfortunately I can't give you more details.
That's _secret_, you see.
[...]
>
> Thanks,
>
> Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is
You're welcome. Now, let me ask you a few questions, if you
don't mind:
1. Is it true that the Center for Policy Research is a
one-man enterprise?
2. Is it true that your questions are not being asked
bona fide?
3. Is it true that your statement above, "These are indeed
provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
people around me" is not true?
Noam
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity
Nntp-Posting-Host: gs135.sp.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 30
In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
>of those files.
>So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
>1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?
ADL authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including
the millions of Americans of Arab ancestry.  Perhaps you can answer
the question as to why the ADL maintained files and spied on ADC members
in California (and elsewhere??)?  Friendly rivalry perhaps?
Perhaps Yigal is a Greenpeace member? Or the NAACP? Or a reporter?
Or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations/ethnic
minorities/occupations that the ADL spied on.
>2. Why does the ADL have an interest in that person ?
Paranoia?
>3. If one does trust either the US government or the ADL what an
>   additional information should he send them ?
The names of half the posters on this forum, unless they already
have them.
>
>
>Gideon Ehrlich
-anwar
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 8
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc8.ins.cwru.edu
Why does the Center For Policy Research pose such unbelievably
stupid and loaded questions to this newsgroup.  What are you? - a
think tank, or a fish tank?  Every time I start to believe I have
seen the outer boundaries of your stupidity, you come up with one
step beyond.  When will it end, man?  Can you actually have brain
enough to dress and feed yourself each morning?
From: deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
X-Posted-From: mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu
Lines: 43
In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.000413.25123@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>My response to the "shooting down" of a Turkish airplane over the Armenian
>air space was because of the IGNORANT posting of the person from your
>Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
>KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived
>in their HOMELAND for 3000 years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS
>BY STALIN) are the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending
>themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. Agression that has NO MERCY for INOCENT
>people that are costantly SHELLED with MIG-23's and othe Russian aircraft.
>
>At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH
>crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.
>
Armenia is involved in fighting with Azarbaijan.  It is Armenian
soldiers from mainland Armenia that are shelling towns in Azarbaijan.
You might wish to read more about whether or not it is Azeri aggression
only in that region.  It seems to me that the Armenians are better
organized, have more success militarily and shell Azeri towns
repeatedly.
I don't wish to get into the Cyprus discussion.  Turkey had the right to
intervene, and it did.  Perhaps the intervention was not supposed to
last for so long, but the constant refusal of the Greek governments both
on the island and in Greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed
for the ongoing standoff in the region.
Lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia?  I vote yes for it.
After all, it is now free.
regards,
Deniz
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
From: <FINAID5@auvm.american.edu>
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
<1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu>
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu> Mr.Napoleon responds:
*******************************************************
********************* TO MR. NAPOLEON******************
*******************************************************
> Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
> who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
> believe for somebody trying to be objective.
> When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
> blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
> What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
> Do you think it was your right to be there?
** There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor
**until 1923 Someone had to protect them. If not us who??
Is that so? or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman
empire to grab some land. As soon as you got green lights from
allied forces, you occupied Izmir and other cities in western
Turkey. You killed and  raped millions people without any reason.
Of course, you paid the price. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk made
you swim in aegean sea but not far enough. Your aggressions thru
Turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall
not get you anywhere.
> I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
> not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
> It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
> I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
> visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
> was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
>
**Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
**Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
**waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of
**Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.
What compromise are you talking about on Cyprus. That is not Greece
business to join the island to Greece. That is up to people in the island
to live or not to live together. They made their decision and they are
living  separetely now.There is a peace there. Greeks can't slaughter
Turks anymore because turkish peacemaking force is there.
Your dream will never come true. 12 mile territorialwater!!!!
Are you joking or dreaming? We can declare our 12 miles territorial
water which can come close to Athens. How would you like it?
If you have any guts why don't you shoot at some Turkish ships
in your dream 12 mile territorial waters?
We do not have any city called Konstantinople. We have a city
called ISTANBUL!!!! All the greeks in Istanbul are being
treated just any other Turks. There is no difference among people
in Turkey. You look at your own backyard first before talking
about human rights in Turkey. What are the rights of Turks in Greece?
Nothing. They do not even have basic human rights like right to
have property, fredom of religion, fredom of press, fredom of
vote elect their community leaders. Government of Greece publicly
encourages people to destroy and burn schools, religious places,
houses, and farms belong to turkish minority. Then, Greek government
forces these minorities to go to Turkey without anything with them.
You will dream to see Aegean sea as Greek lake but it will never
happen. Think about the war between Turkey and Greece in 1915.
The river called SAKARYA flood 21 days filled with blood in 1915.
> The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
> people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
> because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
> not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals
> why the hatred?
**Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment
**directly or indirecly is a "bad" person.
**It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support
**of the actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
**People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
**are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
**as a such you must pay the price.
You mean that any person who supports the actions and policies of the
government of Greece is a good person. That is your Greek idea to
say Turks are bad people. We know who we are and proud to be TURKS
anywhere in the world. That is not Greeks business to tell us what
kind of people we are. You are not at position to judge people because
you are not civilized enough to give equal rights to your own minorities.
Millions of minorities are being treated as third class citizen,
their rights are taken away from them, and they have no voices under
the Government of Greece. They are almost being treated as slaves
even though we are getting into 21th century. Therefore, do not make me
laught at you.
> So that makes me think that there is some kind of
> brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person
> treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your
> history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
> encounters during your schooling.
> take it easy!
**You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks.Just
**as Greeks, Arats, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had
**the luck to be under Turkish occupation.
**They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.
**You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about
**them from people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.
The Government of Greece is actively supporting terrorism against
Turkey.Armenian and Kurdish terrorists have headquarters in Athens.
They are being trained in special camps in Greece. They are taught how to
kill innocent women and children.This not a claim, this is a fact known
by whole world. In conlusion, you are in action to murder, rape,
destroy the innocent people. I do not take you seriously because you
are not at any positions to talk about human rights and dignity.
Your own government, the Government of Greece actively supports
atrocities in Bosnia. Serbs's Barbarism pleases your government.
Please Napoleon think twice before you write anything about Turks and
Turkey. You are the worst in human right conditions and treatment of
the minorities. Who wants to be a fried with someone whose government
does not respect the human rights, supports terrorism in Turkey,barbaric
actions in Bosnia, treats Turkish minorities as third class citizen and
take away all of their rights, treating them as slaves at the beginning
of 21th century???????
Aykut Atalay Atakan
Napoleon
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Jokes and International Relations
Summary: Re: ISRAIL'e sicak bakmayanlara aydinlatici bir not...
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 47
In article <1993Apr19.213345.28299@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.
ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) [a.k.a. Kubilay Kultigin] wrote:
[KK] Bugunlerde "jewish jokes" muhabbetlerinden esinlenerek sunu
[KK] yazayim dedim.
[KK]
[KK]        "Israel was able to divert the Jewish lobby from the Greeks,
[KK]        for example, by persuading it that supporting the Armenian
[KK]        resolution which came before the Senate in February 1990
[KK]        could help sour Turco-Israeli relations. In addition, the
[KK]        Israeli embassy in Washington was active in ensuring that the
[KK]        resolution failed, for instance by assisting Turkish Jews to
[KK]        travel to Wahington to underline the affinity between Israel
[KK]        and Turkey.
[KK]
[KK]        There was no doubt about the debt which Turkey felt it owed
[KK]        to Israel over this matter. Even four months before the re-
[KK]        solution came up for consideration, as enior member of the
[KK]        Turkish Foreign Ministry said his country was "very grateful"
[KK]        to Israel, the cooperation, in his view, refelecting the
[KK]        maturity of the bilateral relationship. The experience over
[KK]        the Armenian issue has convinced senior figures in Turkey
[KK]        that the pro-Israel network in Washington can indeed deliver
[KK]        the desired results.
[KK]
[KK]	[Robins Philip, "Turkey and the Middle East" 1991 Chathm House
[KK]	 Papers. p.
[KK]
[KK]        papers p.84]
[KK] got to go now
Not so fast! You have a rather warped sense of logic! You are telling us that
because Israel wishes to have good relations with Turkey even at the expense
of Armenians or Armenia, makes it bad for Turks to tell racist jokes against
Jews. Thus, we can infer, if Israel had poor relations with Turkey, it would
be alright to post such horrible jokes against Jews!
You impress nobody.
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #010
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 23
In article <1993Apr20.050956.25141@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.
ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) [a.k.a. Kubilay Kultigin] writes:
[KK] david
Yes?
[KK] give it a rest. will you ???
No.
[KK] it is increasingly becoming very annoying...
Barbarism is rather annoying for you, now isn't it, especially when it comes
from from a country, Azerbaijan, that claims Turkey as its number one ally,
protector, and mentor!
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
In-Reply-To: henrik@quayle.kpc.com's message of Tue, 20 Apr 1993 16:45:17 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: vein.cs.rochester.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Rochester
<1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>
<1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com>
<1993Apr20.000413.25123@ee.rochester.edu>
<1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com>
In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
[stuff deleted]
> Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
> KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan.
Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  It
seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
while hoping that Turkey will stay out.  Stop and think for a moment,
will you?  Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it
is a part of it.
>The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived
>in their HOMELAND for 3000 years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS
>BY STALIN) are the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending
>themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION.
Huh?  You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them
within their borders?
[...]
> At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH
> crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.
You're not playing with a full deck, are you?  Where would Turkey invade?
Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header
in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun?  Yes indeed Turkey
has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes she had, however, is
the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring the parties to the
negotiating table.  That's hard to do when Armenians are attacking Azeri
towns.  Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the
futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that
leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's
going to cause incessant skirmishes.  Think of 10 or 20 years down the
line -- both of the newly independent countries need to develop economically
and neither one is going to wipe the other out.  These people will be
neighbors, would it not be better to keep the bad blood between them minimal?
If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes
your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of their
blood and future.  It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize
craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled.  The Armenians
in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate
as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more.  The sooner there's peace in
the region the better it is for them and everyone else.  I'd push for
compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading
inflammatory half-truths.
cheers,
BM
From: albert@olizei.aiva.lt (Albert Meltser)
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers... What are you ``joking'' dark so much for?
Distribution: world
Organization: Lithuanian-Israeli Joint Stock Company OLIZEI
Reply-To: albert@olizei.aiva.lt
Keywords: Ani ohev et kolkhem  -- 'Uhibbu kullukum -- I love you all
Lines: 32
>   Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
>      take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>
>   A: Four
>
>   Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>   and one writes up a false report.
>
>   --
>                     /       ..                          /  .
>                   /_______/_/__________/_/_/      _<  /____/
>            /___ /       ..                     /____/
>
1. There is a similar idea here in ex-USSR about how many militioners it needs
to place a new electric lamp. The answer is nine: one stays on a table and
holds the lamp, four hold the table and turn it and yet four run around the
table in opposite direction not to make the first feel bad (when being
turned). Pitily, it lacks this kind of dark humour as Nick's msg does.
2. To my mind the signature should be smth like:
/       _                     __        /  .
/_______/_/_______________    /________ /____/
/___ /      _                  /
Albert
--
_   ..   I   _      ..        II
___I__/__)____I__I__(_)  I____I ___I__II
__)    '                        __) .
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Organization: NONE
Lines: 67
In article <1993Apr20.173009.10580@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr20.000413.25123@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
henrik]  My response to the "shooting down" of a Turkish airplane over the
henrik]  Armenian air space was because of the IGNORANT posting of the
henrik]  person from your Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to
henrik]  drag ARMENIA into the KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. The
henrik]  KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived in their HOMELAND for 3000
henrik]  years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS BY STALIN) are
henrik]  the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending
henrik]  themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. Agression that has NO MERCY
henrik]  for INOCENT people that are costantly SHELLED with MIG-23's and
henrik]  othe Russian aircraft.
henrik]  At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the
henrik]  KARABAKH crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL
henrik]  NEVER OCCUR again.
DA] Armenia is involved in fighting with Azarbaijan.  It is Armenian
DA] soldiers from mainland Armenia that are shelling towns in Azarbaijan.
Well, this is your opinion !
Turkish/ Azeris can BARK all they WANT since the ABOVE is UNTRUE. However,
I am sure YOU GUYS would have NEVER brought up ARMENIA's involvement if
KARABAKHI-Armenians had had HEAVY losses.
DA] You might wish to read more about whether or not it is Azeri aggression
DA] only in that region.  It seems to me that the Armenians are better
DA] organized, have more success militarily and shell Azeri towns
DA] repeatedly.
Read what ? The New York Times , that is publishing anti-armenian
articles. Nop, I have my resources. Look, everyone knows how aggressive
Turks/Azeris have been in the past. Armenians ARE NOT gona sit
around and watch FIRE WORKS by AZERIS taught by TURKS.
DA] It seems to me that the Armenians are better organized, have more success
DA] militarily and shell Azeri towns repeatedly.
Buch of non-sence CRAP and you know it. Who the hell you think
you are talking to ? Azeris are FIGHTING LOCAL ARMENIANS in
Nagarno-Karabakh. You tell me who has more MIG's ? Freedom fighters
in Nagarno-Karabakh or Azerbaijan ?
Again, I will say it for the last time, ARMENIA is NOT involved
in this WAR and you guys WANT to bring this up in order to cover
up the Turkish involvment in the Karabakh. Go ahead , REPEAT as
much as you want.
DA] I don't wish to get into the Cyprus discussion.  Turkey had the right to
DA] intervene, and it did.  Perhaps the intervention was not supposed to
DA] last for so long, but the constant refusal of the Greek governments both
DA] on the island and in Greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed
DA] for the ongoing standoff in the region.
Not a chance ! You CAN NOT convince me (based on your REASONS)that
your GOVERNMENT did the RIGHT thing to invade CYPRUS.
DA] Lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia?  I vote yes for it.
DA] After all, it is now free.
Well, I am NOT in the position to agree or disadree with you.
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES (Henrik)
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 93
In article <1993Apr20.110021.5746@kth.se> hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
responsed to henrik@quayle.kpc.com who wrote:
[h] 	The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their RIGHTS
[h]        to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are INVADING their
[h]        territorium...
[HE]	Homeland? First Nagarno-Karabagh was Armenians homeland today
[HE]	Fizuli, Lacin and several villages (in Azerbadjan)
[HE]	are their homeland. Can't you see the
[HE]	the  "Great Armenia" dream in this?
Greater Armenia would stretch from Karabakh, to the Black Sea, to the
Mediterranean, so if you use the term "Greater Armenia" use it with care.
[HE]    With facist methods like
[HE]	killing, raping and bombing villages. The last move was the
[HE]	blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to
[HE]	escape the from Lacin, a city that was "given" to the Kurds
[HE]	by the Armenians.
It has always been up to the Azeris to end their announced winning of Karabakh
by removing the Armenians! When the president of Azerbaijan, Elchibey, came to
power last year, he announced he would be be "swimming in Lake Sevan [in
Armeniaxn] by July". Well, he was wrong! If Elchibey is going to shell the
Armenians of Karabakh from Aghdam, his people will pay the price! If Elchibey
is going to shell Karabakh from Fizuli his people will pay the price! If
Elchibey thinks he can get away with bombing Armenia from the hills of
Kelbajar, his people will pay the price.
It also seems other non-Azeri minorities in Azerbaijan have understood they
are next in line in this process of forced Azerification or deportation. Just
look at the situation with the Lezgians.
About the Kurds...what Kurds! According to the Azerbaijani government, there
are no Kurds in Azerbaijan. Can't they make up their minds? Oh I see, there
are only Kurds when the Azeris want them to be Kurds! And anyway, this "60
Kurd refugee" story, as have other stories, are simple fabrications sourced in
Baku, modified in Ankara. Other examples of this are Armenia has no border
with Iran, and the ridiculous story of the "intercepting" of Armenian military
conversations as appeared in the New York Times supposedly translated by
somebody unknown, from Armenian into Azeri Turkish, submitted by an unnamed
"special correspondent" to the NY Times from Baku. Real accurate!
[h]       However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane
[h]       to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
[h]       that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
[h]       (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.
[h]
No, Henrik, these Turkish planes should be shot down with no questions asked.
[HE]	Don't speak about things you don't know: 8 American Cargo planes
[HE]	were heading to Armenia. When the Turkish authorities
[HE]	announced that they were going to search these cargo
[HE]	planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in Germany.
[HE]	5 of these planes were searched in Turkey. The content of
[HE]	of the other 3 planes? Not hard to guess, is it? It was sure not
[HE]	humanitarian aid.....
Your "facts" in error. Shipments of all kinds that have transversed Turkey
have been either searched, re-routed or confiscated. Some American planes
were searched, others were re-routed, others were untouched. Rail shipments
were held up last fall and last winter from entering Armenian from Turkey
for the purpose of aiding in the economic collapse of Armenia. Wheat was
confiscated, other shipments were exchanged with "crap" and dirt, then
shipped to Armenia. U.S. planes don't have to use Turkish air bases. The U.S.
uses these bases to bomb Iraq. Anyway, U.S. planes can fly over Georgia, which
they have found is easier than to endure unnecessary expressions of Turkish
chauvinism through searches of cargo which to this day have not revealed
anything other than a paranoid Turkish military.
[HE]	Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.
[HE]	since it's content is announced to be weapons?
Well, big mouth Ozal said military weapons are being provided to Azerbaijan
from Turkey, yet Demirel and others say no. No wonder you are so confused!
[HE]	Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons
[HE]	to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan
[HE]	it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons
[HE]	since it's content is announced to be weapons?
You are correct, all Turkish planes should be simply shot down! Nice, slow
moving air transports!
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: kaveh@gate-koi.corp.sgi.com (Kaveh Smith )
Subject: Jews/Islam  Dr. Frankenstien
Nntp-Posting-Host: gate-koi.corp.sgi.com
Reply-To: kaveh@gate-koi.corp.sgi.com (Kaveh Smith )
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA, USA
Lines: 49
I have found Jewish people very imagentative and creative. Jewish religion was the foundation for Christianity and
Islam.  In other words Judaism has fathered both religions. Now Islam has turned against its father I may say.
It is Ironic that after communizem threat is almost gone, religion wars are going to be on the raise.
I thought the idea of believing on one God, was to Unite all man kind. How come both Jews and Islam which believe
on the same God, "the God of Ebrahim" are killing each other? Is this like Dr. Frankenstien's story?
How are you going to stop this from happening? How are you going to deal with so many Muslims. Nuking them
would distroy the whole world? Would God get mad, since you have killed his followers, you believe on the same
God, same heaven and the same hell after all? What is the peacefull way of ending this Saga?
Man kind needs religion, since it sets up the rules and the regulations which keeps the society in a healthy state.
A religion is mostly a sets of rules which people have experienced and know it works for the society.
The praying, keeps the sole healthy and meditates it. God does not care for man kinds pray, but man kind hopes
that God will help him when he prays.
Religion works mostly on the moral issues and trys to put away the materialistic things in the life. But the
religious leaders need to make a living through religion? So they  may corrupt it, or turn it to their own way to
make their living. i.e Muslims have to pay  %20 percent of their income to the Mullahs. I guess the rabie  gets his
cut too!
Is in it that religion should be such that everybody on planet earth respects each other, be good toward each other
helps one another, respect the mother nature. Is in that heaven and hell are created on earth through the acts
that we take today?  Is in it that within every man there is good and bad, he could choose either one, then he will
see the outcome of his choice.  How can we prevent man kind from going crazy over religion. How can we stop
another religious killing field, under poor Gods name? What are your thoughts? Do you think man kind would
to come its senses, before it is too late?
P.S. on the side
Do you think that Moses saw the God on mount Sina? Why would God go to top of the mountain? He created
the earth, he could have been anywhere? why on top the mountain? Was it because people thought to see God
you have to reach to the skies/heavens? Why God kept coming back to Middle East? Was it because they created
God through their imagination?  Is that why Jewish people were told by God, they were the chosen ones?
Profit Mohammad was married to Khadijeh. She was a Jewish. She taught him how to trade. She probably taught
him about Judaism. Quran is mostly copy right of Taurah (sp? old testement). Do you think God wrote Quran?
Makeh was a trade city before Islam. Do you think it was made to be the center of Islamic world because Mohammad
wanted to expand his trade business? Is that why  God has put his house in there?
I think this religious stuff has gone too far. All man kind are going to hurt from it if they do not wise up.
Look at David Koresh, how that turned out? I am afraid in the bigger scale, the Jews and the Muslims will
have the same ending!!!!!!!!
Religion is needed in the sense to keep people in harmony and keep them doing good things, rather than
plotting each others distruction.  There is one earth, One life and one God. Let's all man kind be good toward
each other.
God help us all.
Peace
From: oyalcin@IASTATE.EDU (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Reply-To: oyalcin@IASTATE.EDU (Onur Yalcin)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 69
In article <1993Apr19.234534.18368@kpc.com>, henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
> In article <C5qu5H.1IF@news.iastate.edu>, oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
writes:
> |>
> |> ..[cancellum]...
> |>
> |>
> |>
>
> Onur Yalcin] Secondly, the island of which the name is more correctly spelled
> Onur Yalcin] as Cyprus has never been Greek, but rather, it has been home to
> Onur Yalcin] a bi-communal society formed of Greeks and Turks. It seems that
>                ^^^^^^^^^^^
> Onur Yalcin] you know as little about the history and the demography of the
> Onur Yalcin] island, as you know about the essence of Turkey's
> Onur Yalcin] military intervention to it under international agreements.
>
> 	bi-communal society ? Then why DID NOT Greece INVADE CYPRUS ?
Henrik (?),
Your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence. I'm not
going to spend time to review with you the recent history of Cyprus. If you are
really interested, I can provide you with a number of references on the issue.
Just send me EMail for that.
>
> Onur Yalcin] Be that as it may, an analogy between an act of occupation in
> Onur Yalcin] history and what is going on today on Azerbaijani land, can only
> Onur Yalcin] be drawn with the expansionist policy that Armenia is now
> pursuing.
>
> 	Buch of CRAP and you know it. Nagarno-Karabagh has ALWAYS been PART
>         of ARMENIA and it was STALIN who GAVE IT to the AZERIS. Go back and
>         review the HISTORY.
>
> 	The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their RIGHTS
>         to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are INVADING their
>         teritory.
>
> Onur Yalcin] But, I could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to
> Onur Yalcin] the political conduct of countries, and promulgate them in such
> Onur Yalcin] terminology as "itchy-bitchy"...
>
>        I was not the one that STATED IT.
>
Relax! You're swinging fists into open air... I was *agreeing* with you,
assuming that would be one of your points that you did not state! You may
not be very much used to it, to be agreed with - that is, but take it more
easily.  !:-)
>        However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane
>        to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
No, Henrik, believe me: You don't hope that.
>        that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
>        (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.
>
Was that after or before one French plane changed its route to avoid
inspection???
--
Onur Yalcin
oyalcin@iastate.edu
"Un punto in piu`"
From: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Reply-To: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 36
In article <1993Apr20.143453.3127@news.uiowa.edu>, mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau
Napoleon) writes:
> From article <1qvgu5INN2np@lynx.unm.edu>, by osinski@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Marek
Osinski):
>
> > Well, it did not take long to see how consequent some Greeks are in
> > requesting that Thessaloniki are not called Solun by Bulgarian netters.
> > So, Napoleon, why do you write about Konstantinople and not Istanbul?
> >
> > Marek Osinski
>
> Thessaloniki is called Thessaloniki by its inhabitants for the last 2300
years.
> The city was never called Solun by its inhabitants.
> Instabul was called Konstantinoupolis from 320 AD until about the 1920s.
> That's about 1600 years. There many people alive today who were born in a
city
> called Konstantinoupolis. How many people do you know that were born in a city
> called Solun.
>
> Napoleon
Are you one of those people who were born when Istanbul was called
Konstantinopolis? I don't think so! If those people use it because
they are used to do so, then I understand. But open any map
today (except a few that try to be political) you will see that the name
of the city is printed as Istanbul. So, don't try to give
any arguments to using Konstantinopolis except to cause some
flames, to make some political statement.
--
Tankut Atan
tankut@iastate.edu
"Achtung, baby!"
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 64
In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
Ten Questions about arab countries
----------------------------------
I would be thankful if any of you who live in arab countries could
help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions.
These are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and
again by people around me.
1.      Is it true that many arab countries don't recognize
Israeli nationality ?  That people with Israeli stamps on their
passports can't enter arabic countries?
2.      Is it true that arabic countries such as Jordan and Syria
have undefined borders and that arab governments from 1948 until today
have refused to state where the ultimate borders of their states
should be?
3.      Is it true that arab countires refused to sign the Chemical
weapon convention treaty in Paris in 1993?
4.      Is it true that in arab prisons there are a number of
individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
state secrets ?
4a.	Is it true that some arab countries, like Syria, harbor Nazi
war criminals, and refuse to extradite them?
4b.	Is it true that some arab countries, like Saudi Arabia,
prohibit women from driving cars?
5.      Is it true that Jews who reside in the Muslim
countries are subject to different laws than Muslims?
6.      Is it true that arab countries confiscated the property of
entire Jewish communites forced to flee by anti-Jewish riots?
7.      Is it true that Israel's Prime Minister, Y. Rabin, signed
a chemical weapons treaty that no arab nation was willing to sign?
8.      Is it true that Syrian Jews are required to leave a $10,000
deposit before leaving the country, and are no longer allowed to
emmigrate, despite promises made by Hafez Assad to George Bush?
9.	 Is it true that Jews in Muslim lands are required to pay a
special tax, for being Jews?
10.     Is it true that Intercontinental Hotel in Jerusalem was built
on a Jewish cemetary, with roads being paved over grave sites, and
gravestones being used in Jordanian latrines?
11.	Is it really cheesy and inappropriate to post lists of biased
leading questions?
11a.	Is it less appropriate if information implied in Mr.
Davidsson's questions is highly misleading?
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Lines: 134
In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: Ten questions about Israel
>
>
> Ten questions to Israelis
> -------------------------
>
> I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
> provide
>  accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
> indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
> people around me.
>
> 1.      Is it true that the Israeli authorities don't recognize
> Israeli nationality ? And that ID cards, which Israeli citizens
> must carry at all times, identify people as Jews or Arabs, not as
> Israelis ?
Although the Hebrew expression LE'UM is used, the ID card specifically states on
the 2nd page: EZRACHUT YISREALIT: Israeli citizen. This is true for all
Israeli citizens no matter what their ethnicity. In the United States most
official forms have RACE (Caucasian, Black, AmerIndian, etc.).
>
> 2.      Is it true that the State of Israel has no fixed borders
> and that Israeli governments from 1948 until today have refused to
> state where the ultimate borders of the State of Israel should be
> ?
>
Funny, I have a number of maps and ALL of them have fixed borders.
> 3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
> could you provide any evidence ?
Probably yes. So what ?
>
> 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
> individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
> identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
> state secrets ?
Apart from Mordechai Vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors, there was one
other espionage case (the nutty professor at the Nes Ziona Biological
Institute who was a K.G.B. mole) who was tried "in camera". I wouldn't exactly
call it a state secret. The trial was simply tried behind closed doors. I hate
to disappoint you but the United States has tried a number of espionage cases
in camera.
>
> 5.      Is it true that Jews who reside in the occupied
> territories are subject to different laws than non-Jews?
>
Not Jews. Israeli citizens. Jordanian law is in effect in the West Bank but the
KNESSET passed a law that Israeli law would be binding on Israeli citizens
residing in the West Bank. These citizens could be Jews, Israeli Muslims, Druze,
or Israeli Christians. It has NOTHING to do with religion.
> 6.      Is it true that Jews who left Palestine in the war 1947/48
> to avoid the war were automatically allowed to return, while their
> Christian neighbors who did the same were not allowed to return ?
Anyone who was registered (Jew, Muslim, Christian) could return. You might be
confusing this with the census taken in June 1967 on the West Bank after the
Six Day War. In *this* instance, if the Arab was not physically present he
couldn't reside on the West Bank (e.g. if he had been visting Jordan).
>
> 7.      Is it true that Israel's Prime Minister, Y. Rabin, signed
> an order for ethnical cleansing in 1948, as is done today in
> Bosnia-Herzegovina ?
>
No. Not even if you drowned him in bourbon, scotch or brandy :-)
> 8.      Is it true that Israeli Arab citizens are not admitted as
> members in kibbutzim?
Not true. Although a minority, there *are* some Israeli Arabs living on
kibbutzim. On the other hand, at my age (42) I wouldn't be admitted to a
kibbutz nor could the family join me. Not that I would be so thrilled to do so
in the first place. The kibbbutz movement places candidates under rigorous
membership criteria. Many Israeli Jews are not admitted.
>
> 9.      Is it true that Israeli law attempts to discourage
> marriages between Jews and non-Jews ?
The religious status quo in Israel has marriage and divorce  handled by the
religious courts. The RABBANUT handles marriage and divorce for Jews, the
Muslim SHAARIA  courts are for Muslims, the Christian denominations have their
religious courts, and the Druze have their own courts. The entire religious
establishment (Jewish, Muslim, Druze, Christian) wants to keep it that way.
>
> 10.     Is it true that Hotel Hilton in Tel Aviv is built on the
> site of a muslim cemetery ?
I believe it's adjacent to a former Muslim cemetary. From what I heard (and I'd
like to get feedback from Muslins  on the net) sanctity of cemetaries is not
held that sancrosanct as it is held by Jews. The current Israeli Ministry of
Trade and Industry on Agron Road in Jerusalem is housed in a former hotel that
was built by Arabs in the 1920's on the site of an Arab cemetary.
Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
>
> Thanks,
>
> Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Organization: NONE
Lines: 100
In article <MUCIT.93Apr20144400@vein.cs.rochester.edu>, mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
|> [stuff deleted]
|>
henrik]  Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
henrik]  KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan.
BM] Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  It
BM] seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Again, Armenians in KARABAKH are SIMPLY defending themselves. What do
want them to do. Lay down their ARMS and let Azeris walk all over them.
BM] while hoping that Turkey will stay out.  Stop and think for a moment,
BM] will you?  Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it
BM] is a part of it.
Armenians KNEW from the begining that TURKS were FULLY engaged
training AZERIS militarily to fight against  KARABAKHI-Armenians.
henrik] The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived in their HOMELAND for 3000
henrik] years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS BY STALIN) are the
henrik] ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending
henrik] themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION.
BM]  Huh?  You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them
BM]  within their borders?
Well, history is SAD. Remember, those are relocated Azeris into
the Armenian LAND of KARABAKH by the STALIN regime.
henrik] At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the
henrik] KARABAKH crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER
henrik] OCCUR again.
BM] You're not playing with a full deck, are you?  Where would Turkey invade?
It is not up to me to speculate but I am sure Turkey would have stepped
into Armenia if SHE could.
BM] Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header
BM] in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun?
Absolutely NOT ! I am merely trying to emphasize that in many
cases, HISTORY repeats itself.
BM] Yes indeed Turkey has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes
BM] she had, however, is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring
BM] the parties to the negotiating table.  That's hard to do when Armenians
BM] are attacking Azeri towns.
So, let me understand in plain WORDS what you are saying; Turkey
wants a PEACEFUL END to this CONFLICT. NOT !!
I will believe it when I see it.
Now, as far as attacking, what do you do when you see a GUN pointing
to your HEAD ? Do you sit there and WATCH or DEFEND yoursef(fat chance)?
Do you remember what Azeris did to the Armenians in BAKU ? All the
BARBERIAN ACTS especially against MOTHERS and their CHILDREN. I mean
BURNING people ALIVE !
BM] Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the
BM] futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that
BM] leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's
BM] going to cause incessant skirmishes.
Armenians in KARABAKH want PEACE and their own republic. They are
NOT asking much. They simply want to get back what was TAKEN AWAY
from them and GIVEN to AZERIS by STALIN.
BM] Think of 10 or 20 years down the line -- both of the newly independent
BM] countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe
BM] the other out.   These people will be neighbors, would it not be better
BM] to keep the bad blood between them minimal?
Don't get me WRONG. I also want PEACEFUL solution to the
conflict. But until Azeris realize that, the Armenians in
KARABAKH will defend themselves against aggresion.
BM] If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes
BM] your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of
BM] their blood and future.
Again, you are taking different TURNS. Armenia HAS no intension
to GRAB any LAND from Azerbaijan. The Armenians in KARABAKH
are simply defending themselves UNTIL a solution is SET.
BM] It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize
BM] craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled.  The Armenians
BM] in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate
BM] as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more.  The sooner there's peace in
BM] the region the better it is for them and everyone else.  I'd push for
BM] compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading
BM] inflammatory half-truths.
It is NOT up to me to decide the PEACE initiative. I am absolutely
for it. But, in the meantime, if you do not take care of yourself,
you will be WIPED out. Such as the case in the era of 1915-20 of
The Armenian Massacres.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: FLAME and a Jewish home in Palestine
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 41
In article <C5rxH0.LJy@imag.fr> maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler) writes:
>In article <C5HJBC.1HC@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>|> Typical Arabic thinking.  If we are guilty of something, so is
>|> everyone else.  Unfortunately for you, Nabil, Jewish tribes are not
>|> nearly as susceptible to the fratricidal murdering that is still so
>|> common among Arabs in the Middle East.  There were no " killings
>|> between the Jewish tribes on the way."
>I don't like this comment about "Typical" thinking. You could state
>your interpretation of Exodus without it. As I read Exodus I can see
>a lot of killing there, which is painted by the author of the bible
>in ideological/religious colors. The history in the desert can be seen
>as an ethos of any nomadic people occupying a land. That's why I think
>it is a great book with which descendants Arabs, Turks and Mongols can
>unify as well.
You somehow missed Nabil's comments, even though you included it in
your followup:
>The number which could have arrived to the Holy Lands must have been
>substantially less ude to the harsh desert and the killings between the
>Jewish tribes on the way..
I am not aware of "killings between Jewish tribes" in the desert.
The point of "typical thinking" here is that while Arabs STILL TODAY
act in the manner you describe, like "any nomadic people occupying a
land", killing and plundering each other with regularity, others have
somehow progressed over time.  It is not surprising then that Arabs
often accuse others (infidels) of things that they are quite familiar
with: civil rights violations, religious discrimination, ethnic
cleansing, land theft, torture and murder.  It is precisely this
mechanism at work that leads people to say that Jewish tribes were
killing each other in the desert, even without support for such a
ludicrous suggestion.
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 31
In article <C5sDCK.38n@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>Come on!  Most if not all Arabs are sympathetic to the Palestinian war
>against Israel.
I wouldn't bet on it.
Arab governments generally don't care much about the Palestineans and
their struggle but find it useful for political purposes back home.
They are happy to leave the Palestineans largely under Israeli control
because that leaves the job of controlling them to the Israelis.  The
Israelis don't like this job any more than King Hussein of Jordan
liked it -- and he managed to kill them off at the rate of thousands
per month when they started an Intifada in Jordan.  The governments of
Syria, Lebanon and Egypt all feel similarly.  However, proclaiming
public support for the Palestinean war against Israel deflects
criticism from deep problems at home and lends an air of legitimacy to
even the most brutal Arab tyrants.
Arab *PEOPLE* probably aren't much more sympathetic.  Palestineans
have shown a willingness to destabilize and plunder in Jordan,
Lebanon and Kuwait and are viewed with suspicion elsewhere.
You might still be right in sympathy to the war against Israel, but I
suspect that many Arabs, far removed from the immediate border with
Israel (e.g. in Kuwait or Morroco), couldn't care less.
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan
Lines: 63
JLE the Great writes:
[JLE] Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
[JLE] take to kill a 5 year old native child?
[JLE] A: Four
[JLE] Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
[JLE] and one writes up a false report.
A couple of months ago JLE wrote a terrible C program (it would never have
passed compilation). This is one describes JLE the Great.
---- 8< Cut Here and save to jle.c ----------- >8 ----------
#include <stdio.h>
#include <signal.h>
#define	LOSER		0x01
#define	CHILDISH	0x01
#define	UNHUMORISTIC	0x01
#define VULGAR		0x01
#define MOSSAD_AGENT	0x01
#define J_L_E		LOSER | CHILDISH | UNHUMORISTIC | VULGAR | MOSSAD_AGENT
static void
abort()
{
printf("Even if she wanted, JLE's mother couldn't abort this program");
printf("\n\n\n\n");
}
void
main()
{
signal(SIGINT,abort);
printf("This program does not help Jewish-Arab relations  :-( \n");
printf("Hit ^C to abort \n");
/* Infinite loop, JLE never comes out of his world 	*/
while(J_L_E);
}
---- 8< Cut Here ----------- >8 ----------
To compile this "wonderfool" program on a unix machine try.
cc -o jle jle.c
or
make jle
then type jle at your prompt.
I tried it, it works great ...
Tsiel
--
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 23
backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>>
>>
>> 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
>> individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
>> identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
>> state secrets ?
>Apart from Mordechai Vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors, there was one
>other espionage case (the nutty professor at the Nes Ziona Biological
>Institute who was a K.G.B. mole) who was tried "in camera". I wouldn't exactly
>call it a state secret. The trial was simply tried behind closed doors. I hate
>to disappoint you but the United States has tried a number of espionage cases
>in camera.
One of those US cases was John Pollard.
Ed.
From: B8HA <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: RE: Jews/Islam  Dr. Frankenstien
Lines: 99
Nntp-Posting-Host: vm1.mcgill.ca
Organization: McGill University
Some of your article was cut off on the right margin, but I will try
and answer from what I can read.
In article <C5ssqE.Dps@odin.corp.sgi.com> kaveh@gate-koi.corp.sgi.com (Kaveh Smith ) writes:
>I have found Jewish people very imagentative and creative. Jewish religion was the foundation for Christianity and
>Islam.  In other words Judaism has fathered both religions. Now Islam has turned against its father I may say.
>It is Ironic that after communizem threat is almost gone, religion wars are going to be on the raise.
>I thought the idea of believing on one God, was to Unite all man kind. How come both Jews and Islam which believe
>on the same God, "the God of Ebrahim" are killing each other? Is this like Dr. Frankenstien's story?
>How are you going to stop this from happening? How are you going to deal with so many Muslims. Nuking them
>would distroy the whole world? Would God get mad, since you have killed his followers, you believe on the same
>God, same heaven and the same hell after all? What is the peacefull way of ending this Saga?
>
Judaism did not father Islam.  We had many of the same prophets, but
Judaism ignores prophets later prophets including Jesus Christ (who
Christians and Muslims believe in) and Mohammed.  The idea of believing
in one God should unite all peoples.  However, note that Christianity
and Islam reflect the fact that there are people with different views
and the rights of non-Christians and non-Muslims are stated in each
religion.
>Man kind needs religion, since it sets up the rules and the regulations which keeps the society in a healthy state.
>A religion is mostly a sets of rules which people have experienced and know it works for the society.
>The praying, keeps the sole healthy and meditates it. God does not care for man kinds pray, but man kind hopes
>that God will help him when he prays.
>Religion works mostly on the moral issues and trys to put away the materialistic things in the life. But the
>religious leaders need to make a living through religion? So they  may corrupt it, or turn it to their own way to
>make their living. i.e Muslims have to pay  %20 percent of their income to the Mullahs. I guess the rabie  gets his
>cut too!
>
We are supposed to pay 6% of our income after all necessities are
paid.  Please note that this 6% is on a personal basis - if you are
poor, there is no need to pay (quite the contrary, this money most
often goes to the poor in each in country and to the poor Muslims
around the world).  Also, this money is not required in the human
sense (i.e. a Muslim never knocks at your door to ask for money
and nobody makes a list at the mosque to make sure you have paid
(and we surely don't pass money baskets around during our prayer
services)).
>Is in it that religion should be such that everybody on planet earth respects each other, be good toward each other
>helps one another, respect the mother nature. Is in that heaven and hell are created on earth through the acts
>that we take today?  Is in it that within every man there is good and bad, he could choose either one, then he will
>see the outcome of his choice.  How can we prevent man kind from going crazy over religion. How can we stop
>another religious killing field, under poor Gods name? What are your thoughts? Do you think man kind would
>to come its senses, before it is too late?
>
>
>P.S. on the side
>
>Do you think that Moses saw the God on mount Sina? Why would God go to top of the mountain? He created
>the earth, he could have been anywhere? why on top the mountain? Was it because people thought to see God
>you have to reach to the skies/heavens? Why God kept coming back to Middle East? Was it because they created
>God through their imagination?  Is that why Jewish people were told by God, they were the chosen ones?
>
God's presence is certainly on Earth, but since God is everywhere,
God may show signs of existence in other places as well.  We can not
say for sure where God has shown signs of his existence and where
he has not/.
>Profit Mohammad was married to Khadijeh. She was a Jewish. She taught him how to trade. She probably taught
>him about Judaism. Quran is mostly copy right of Taurah (sp? old testement). Do you think God wrote Quran?
>Makeh was a trade city before Islam. Do you think it was made to be the center of Islamic world because Mohammad
>wanted to expand his trade business? Is that why  God has put his house in there?
>
The Qur'an is not a copyright of the Taurah.  Muslims believe that
the Taurah, the Bible, and the Qur'an originally contained much the same
message, thus the many similiarities.  However, the Taurah and the
Bible have been 'translated' into other languages which has changed
their meaning over time (a translation also reflects some of the
personal views of the translator(s).  The Qur'an still exists in the
same language that it was revealed in - Arabic.  Therefore, we know
that mankind has not changed its meaning.  It is truly what was revealed
to Mohammed at that time.  There are many scientific facts which
were not discovered by traditional scientific methods until much later
such as the development of the baby in the mother's womb.
>I think this religious stuff has gone too far. All man kind are going to hurt from it if they do not wise up.
>Look at David Koresh, how that turned out? I am afraid in the bigger scale, the Jews and the Muslims will
>have the same ending!!!!!!!!
>
Only God knows for sure how it will turn out.  I hope it won't, but if
that happens, it was the will of God.
>Religion is needed in the sense to keep people in harmony and keep them doing good things, rather than
>plotting each others distruction.  There is one earth, One life and one God. Let's all man kind be good toward
>each other.
>
>God help us all.
>Peace
>.
>.
Please send this mail to me again so I can read the rest of what
you said.  And yes, may God help us all.
Steve
From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
In-Reply-To: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 's message of Tue, 20 Apr 1993 23:24:49 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: vein.cs.rochester.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Rochester
<MUCIT.93Apr20144400@vein.cs.rochester.edu>
<1993Apr20.232449.22318@kpc.com>
In article <1993Apr20.232449.22318@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
In article <MUCIT.93Apr20144400@vein.cs.rochester.edu>, mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu) writes:
[...]
henrik]  Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
henrik]  KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan.
BM] Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  It
BM] seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
henrik]	Again, Armenians in KARABAKH are SIMPLY defending themselves. What do
henrik]	want them to do. Lay down their ARMS and let Azeris walk all over them.
News reports I've seen say otherwise both location and motives wise.
CAPS don't change facts.
BM] while hoping that Turkey will stay out.  Stop and think for a moment,
BM] will you?  Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it
BM] is a part of it.
henrik]   Armenians KNEW from the begining that TURKS were FULLY engaged
henrik]   training AZERIS militarily to fight against  KARABAKHI-Armenians.
So?  Should I, at this point break into caps and start talking about
DEFENSE etc.?  I don't know how 'fully engaged' Turkey is/was though.
henrik] The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived in their HOMELAND for 3000
henrik] years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS BY STALIN) are the
henrik] ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending
henrik] themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION.
BM] Huh?  You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them
BM]  within their borders?
henrik] Well, history is SAD. Remember, those are relocated Azeris into
henrik] the Armenian LAND of KARABAKH by the STALIN regime.
So I hear.  This justifies bloodshed N years after the fact?
henrik] At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the
henrik] KARABAKH crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER
henrik] OCCUR again.
BM] You're not playing with a full deck, are you?  Where would Turkey invade?
henrik] It is not up to me to speculate but I am sure Turkey would have stepped
henrik] into Armenia if SHE could.
Why would Turkey do that?  Do you not realize that this is a local clash
that Turkey never wished to see happen?  Turkey has other plans for region,
like economic revival, co-operation etc.  Good stuff in other words,  I'd
be happy to bicker with Armenians over trade barriers and such on USENET
rather than 'who killed whom in what way' which I detest doing and wouldn't
do.
BM] Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header
BM] in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun?
henrik]	   Absolutely NOT ! I am merely trying to emphasize that in many
henrik]	   cases, HISTORY repeats itself.
Even if one buys into your implicit premise, the sane thing to do would
be to try not to provoke Turkey as was done in '74.  If there'd been
a democratic government instead of a bunch of idiots in Athens at the
time, everybody would have stayed home with their families.  [I have no
wish to go into the Cyprus quarrel, but I suspect what I've said is not
only accurate but also palatable to all parties involved]
BM] Yes indeed Turkey has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes
BM] she had, however, is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring
BM] the parties to the negotiating table.  That's hard to do when Armenians
BM] are attacking Azeri towns.
henrik]	   So, let me understand in plain WORDS what you are saying; Turkey
henrik]	   wants a PEACEFUL END to this CONFLICT. NOT !!
So what do you think we want?  War, death and destruction?
henrik]	   I will believe it when I see it.
No, if you allow yourself to believe it you just might see it.
henrik]  Now, as far as attacking, what do you do when you see a GUN pointing
henrik]to your HEAD ? Do you sit there and WATCH or DEFEND yoursef(fat chance)?
This kind of childish rhetoric doesn't help anthing.
henrik]  Do you remember what Azeris did to the Armenians in BAKU ? All the
henrik]  BARBERIAN ACTS especially against MOTHERS and their CHILDREN. I mean
henrik]  BURNING people ALIVE !
Now, some Azeri will come out and give a description of similar stuff
perpetrated by Armenians.  One should re-hash stuff like this often to
keep the hatred alive, right?
BM] Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the
BM]futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that
BM] leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's
BM] going to cause incessant skirmishes.
henrik]	   Armenians in KARABAKH want PEACE and their own republic. They are
henrik]	   NOT asking much. They simply want to get back what was TAKEN AWAY
henrik]	   from them and GIVEN to AZERIS by STALIN.
Well they obviously aren't getting anywhere with their current methods
of asking (not very peaceful I'd say).
BM] Think of 10 or 20 years down the line -- both of the newly independent
BM] countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe
BM] the other out.   These people will be neighbors, would it not be better
BM] to keep the bad blood between them minimal?
henrik]	   Don't get me WRONG. I also want PEACEFUL solution to the
henrik]	   conflict. But until Azeris realize that, the Armenians in
henrik]	   KARABAKH will defend themselves against aggresion.
I don't know if you want a solution or just want to exchange slogans.
Peace isn't what's happening right now, furthermore what's happening
right now isn't condusive to peace.  You can spend days and nights
raving about how 'right' the Armenian position is and I'm sure
there'll be others who'd be happy to talk to you by arguing the other
side.  If entrenched positions lead to war, and if people want peace
than they should sit down and talk about a compromise.  Armenia isn't
strong enough to exercise the 'we think we're right, and we have the
bombs, so we'll do whatever we want, so there...' style of foreign
relations.  Yes you can type Stalin in caps, and give one sided
atrocity stories etc. but for peace you need to be willing to talk to
the other side.  You personally can choose not to do that of course,
this being just USENET.  The people in power shouldn't be so childish.
BM] If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes
BM] your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of
BM] their blood and future.
henrik]	   Again, you are taking different TURNS. Armenia HAS no intension
henrik]	   to GRAB any LAND from Azerbaijan. The Armenians in KARABAKH
henrik]	   are simply defending themselves UNTIL a solution is SET.
Azeri's would disagree with you on this, and the maps I've seen support
what they'd be saying.  It doesn't seem likely that a solution will be
reached in this manner.
BM] It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize
BM] craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled.  The Armenians
BM] in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate
BM] as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more.  The sooner there's peace in
BM] the region the better it is for them and everyone else.  I'd push for
BM] compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading
BM] inflammatory half-truths.
henrik]   It is NOT up to me to decide the PEACE initiative. I am absolutely
henrik]   for it.
It didn't look it when I read your posting.  It would seem to me
that if you can spew mis-information about a boogey-man, you can also
talk about how one might avoid the nastiness.  Fair?
henrik] But, in the meantime, if you do not take care of yourself,
henrik] you will be WIPED out. Such as the case in the era of 1915-20 of
henrik] The Armenian Massacres.
You don't realize I can say the same thing about 'The Turkish Massacres.'
Yes, boys and girls, let's always talk about how bad and nasty things were.
Let's do that so we're overwhelmed by anger, and let's do that so our
kids will also be hateful.  Sounds crazy doesn't it?  Don't do it then.
BM
From: javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Mash Javad)
Subject: Re: News briefs from KH # 1026
Organization: Labaniyati-ye-Sar-e-Koocheh
Lines: 40
In article <sehari.735313083@vincent1.iastate.edu> farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp (Farzin Mokhtarian) writes:
>
>From:  Kayhan Havai # 1026
>--------------------------
>
>
>o Dr. Namaki,  deputy minister of health stated that infant
>  mortality (under one year old) in Iran went down from 120
>  per  thousand before the revolution to 33 per thousand at
>  the end of 1371 (last month).
Dr. cheghadr bA namakand!  They just wait until they are teenagers to kill
them!
>
>o Dr Namaki also stated that before the revolution only
>  254f children received vaccinations to protect them
>  from various deseases but this figure reached 93at
>  the end of 1371.
huh?
>o During the visit of Mahathir Mohammad, the prime minister
>  of Malaysia, to Iran, agreements for cooperation in the
>  areas of industry, trade, education and tourism were
>  signed. According to one agreement, Iran will be in
>  charge of building Malaysia's natural gas network.
Yup.  IRI also granted a great deal of reconstruction of houses and
buildings in war torn areas to Malaysia. Khak too sareshoon, one of the
only industries we really have is construction, and there are all these
unemployed youth, and they give money to Malaysia to do what Iranians
can and should be doing.
>
> - Farzin Mokhtarian
Mash Javad
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: composer.think.com
In article <1993Apr15.204930.9517@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|>
|> In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> |> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> |> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> |> --
|> |> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
|> Mr. water-head,
|> i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
|> israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no
|> water is being used on the lebanese
|> side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
|> israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.
Of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more
difficult.  You have not bothered to substantiate this in
any way.  Basil, do you know of any evidence that would support
this?
I can just imagine a news report from ancient times, if Hasan
had been writing it.
Newsflash:
Cairo AP (Ancient Press).  Israel today denied Egypt acces to the Red
Sea.  In a typical display of Israelite agressiveness, the leader of
the Israelite slave revolt, former prince Moses, parted the Red Sea.
The action is estimated to have caused irreparable damage to the environment.
Egyptian authorities have said that thousands of fisherman have been
denied their livelihood by the parted waters.  Pharaoh's brave charioteers
were successful in their glorious attempt to cause the waters of the
Red Sea to return to their normal state.  Unfortunately they suffered
heavy casualties while doing so.
|> Hasan
--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: karage@scus1.ctstateu.edu (Angelos Karageorgiou Greek and Macedon the only combination)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Nntp-Posting-Host: scsu1.ctstateu.edu
Organization: Southern Connecticut State University, New Haven
Lines: 35
Ok. My Aykut., what about the busload of Greek turists that was
torched, and all the the people in the buis died. Happened oh, about 5
years ago in Instanbul.
What about the Greeks in the islands of Imbros and tenedos, they
are not allowed to have churches any more, instead momama turkey has
turned the church into a warehouse, I got a picture too.
What about the pontian Greeks of Trapezounta and Sampsounta,
what you now call Trabzon and Sampson, they spoke a 2 thousand year alod
language, are there any left that still speek or were they Islamicised?
Before we start another flamefest , and before you start quoting
Argic all over again, or was it somebody else?, please think. I know it
is a hard thing to do for somebody not equipped , but try nevertheless.
If Turks in Greece were so badly mistreated how come they
elected two,m not one but two, representatives in the Greek government?
How come they have free(absolutely free) hospitalization and education?
Do the Turks in Turkey have so much?If they do then you have every right
to shout, untill then you can also move to Greece and enjoy those
privileges. But I forget , for you do study in a foreign university,
some poor shod is tiling the earth with his own sweat.
BTW is Aziz Nessin still writing poetry? I'd like to read some
of his new stuff. Also who was the guy that wrote "On the mountains of
Tayros." ? please respond kindly to the last two questions, I am
interested in finding more books from these two people.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Yeian kai Eytyxeian  | The opinions expressed above are nobody else's but
Angelos Karageorgiou | mine,MINE,MIIINNE,MIIINNEEEE,aaaarrgghhhh..(*&#$$*((+_$%
Live long & Prosper  | NO CARRIER
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>     Any and all mail sent to me , can and will be used in any manner        <
>     whatsoever. I may repost or publicise parts of messages or whole        <
>     messages. If you disagree, please exercise your freedom of speech       <
>     and don't send me anything.                                             <
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: NCSU Chem Eng
Lines: 128
In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|
|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
|> >
|> >It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like
|> >to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
|> >in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
|> >SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
|> >the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not
|> >know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
|> >suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
|> >supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
|> >ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
|> >for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
|> >by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
|> >of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.
|>
|> This a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups:
|> to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the
|> opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or,
|> in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. Certainly the
|> people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the
|> innocent civilians into harm's way.
|>
|> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
|> should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
|> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
|> innocent lives?
Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country? If the
buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why is it
further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why not just
kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there is more to
the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... "GETTING BACK"
..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the villages. The least
it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli government for the lives of
civilians.
|> >If Israel insists that
|> >the so called "Security Zone" is necessary for the protection of
|> >Northern Israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation
|> >with the blood of its soldiers.
|> >If Israel is interested in peace, than it should withdraw from OUR land.
|>
|> What? So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states
|> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
|> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the
|> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their
|> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
|> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of
|> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks.
|> >
|> >I have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only
|> >real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace
|> >settlement whereby Israel withdraws to its own borders and
|> >peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure
|> >no one on either side of the border is shelled.
|>
|> Good lord, Brad. [....]
No, I am not Basil. I think Basil is a very intelligent person and I
respect what he writes. Basil is a person that I would gladly call
a friend. He is, however, not me. Nor am I Lebanese, as some seem to
suspect.
|> >This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
|> >realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
|> >its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
|> >Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
|> >would have resulted in.
|>
|> Perhaps you are aware that, to most communities of people, there is
|> the feeling that it is better that "many of us die fighting
|> against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently
|> accept our fate." If,however, you call on Israel to see the sense of
|> suffering fewer casualties, I suggest you apply the same to Palestinian,
|> Arab and Islamic groups.
Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. Of course, if Israel would withdraw
from Lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
make the Lebanese so mad as to do that. Furthermore, with Hezbollah
subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.
|> >and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
|> >capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
|> >in all other parts of Lebanon.
|> >
|> >Basil
|>
|> It has not. Without the support, and active involvement, of Syria,
|> Lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred.
|> Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain
|> control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.
Tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the Syrian border?
Not lately, eh?
Israel knows very well that the Syrians are able to restrain ALL who would use
territory under their control to attack Israel. While Lebanon would be better
off with Syria and Israel out of its borders, the presence of Syrian troops
in Lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on Israeli territory (not on
Israeli troops in Lebanon, however. Please note the distinction) in the
past two years.
|> >
|> Tim
|>
|> Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
|> selectively naive.
I disagree, Basil has always seemed to me to be a cool-headed person, slow
to anger (certainly more so than I). What is most important is that he is an
actual witness to things from the other end of the Israeli guns. If only the
Israeli government would remember what it was like when the roles were
reversed perhaps they would moderate their "retaliation".
Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
From: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Reply-To: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 81
In article <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu>, mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau
Napoleon) writes:
> From article <1993Apr15.092101@IASTATE.EDU>, by tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T
Atan):
> > Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
> > who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
> > believe for somebody trying to be objective.
> > When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
> > blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
> > What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
> > Do you think it was your right to be there?
>
> There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor until 1923.
> Someone had to protect them. If not us who??
>
> > I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
> > not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
> > It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
> > I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
> > visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
> > was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
> >
> Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
> Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
> waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of
> Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.
>
> There are some things on which there can not be a compromise.
>
>
> > The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
> > people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
> > because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
> > not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals
> > why the hatred?
>
> Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment directly or
> indirecly is a "bad" person.
> It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support of the
> actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
> People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
> are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
> as a such you must pay the price.
>
> > So that makes me think that there is some kind of
> > brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person
> > treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your
> > history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
> > encounters during your schooling.
> > take it easy!
> >
> > --
> > Tankut Atan
> > tankut@iastate.edu
> >
> > "Achtung, baby!"
>
> You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks. Just talk to
> Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under
> Turkish occupation.
> They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.
>
> You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about them from
> people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.
>
> Napoleon
Well, Napoleon. It is your kind of people who are preventing peace
on the world. First of all, you didn't answer the question I asked
at the end of my posting. And then you told me some bullshit
throughout your posting which had no positive point about the issue,
filled with hatred, and filled with emotions. Why am I doing this?
Forget it, I don't think you are worth it to discuss the issue.
--
Tankut Atan
tankut@iastate.edu
"Achtung, baby!"
From: DSHAL@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Clintons views on Jerusalem
Organization: C.C.S.O.
Lines: 10
It seems that President Clinton can recognize Jerusalem as Israels capitol
while still keeping his diplomatic rear door open by stating that the Parties
concerned should decide the city's final status. Even as I endorse Clintons vie
w (of course), it is definitely a matter to be decided upon by Israel (and
other participating neighboring contries).
I see no real conflict in stating both views, nor expect any better from
politicians.
-----
David Shalhevet / dshal@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu / University of Illinois
Dept Anim Sci / 220 PABL / 1201 W. Gregory Dr. / Urbana, IL 61801
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!
Nntp-Posting-Host: tbilisi.src.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center
Lines: 27
In article <BRADSKI.93Apr15210934@retina.bu.edu> bradski@retina.bu.edu (Gary Bradski) writes:
>>>>>> On 15 Apr 93 03:13:49 GMT, amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) said:
>
>>> I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
>>> Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
>>> I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.
>                                       ^^^
>The Syrians?  Iranian agents?  Or just Israeli invaders?
>--
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   ---------------
>Gary Bradski                  I'net: bradski@park.bu.edu       | reverberate |
>Cognitive and Neural Systems                                   ---------------
>Boston University.                                                 |  V V
>111 Cummington St, Boston MA 02215                                 ^   Y
>617/ 353-6426                                                     ^ ^  |
>                                                               --------------
>            I don't even agree with some of my opinions        |   or die!  |
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   --------------
>
I did say *any* invader, didn't I?  What do you want from me, perhaps a neural
net design with all countries involved in Lebanon as its nodes? :-)  (You are
in Cognitive and Neural Systems)
If that's the case, I would put different weights for each country in my
net.
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: NCSU Chem Eng
Lines: 44
In article <1qmdtlINNkrc@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr15.204930.9517@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|> |>
|> |> In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> |> |> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> |> |> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> |> |> --
|> |> |> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
|> |> Mr. water-head,
|> |> i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
|> |> israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no
|> |> water is being used on the lebanese
|> |> side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
|> |> israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.
|>
|> Of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more
|> difficult.  You have not bothered to substantiate this in
|> any way.  Basil, do you know of any evidence that would support
|> this?
|>
|> I can just imagine a news report from ancient times, if Hasan
|> had been writing it.
|>
|> Newsflash:
|> Cairo AP (Ancient Press).  Israel today denied Egypt acces to the Red
|> Sea.  In a typical display of Israelite agressiveness, the leader of
|> the Israelite slave revolt, former prince Moses, parted the Red Sea.
|> The action is estimated to have caused irreparable damage to the environment.
|> Egyptian authorities have said that thousands of fisherman have been
|> denied their livelihood by the parted waters.  Pharaoh's brave charioteers
|> were successful in their glorious attempt to cause the waters of the
|> Red Sea to return to their normal state.  Unfortunately they suffered
|> heavy casualties while doing so.
Hehehe.
BTW, does the Litani River not flow West and not South? I think that its waters
stay entirely within Lebanese territory and so what Hasan says about the Jordan
River makes no sense, in any case. The Hasbani River, on the other hand, flows
into the Jordan, if I am not mistaken.
Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU WILL MISS, Apr 15
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Reply-To: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: klosters.ai.mit.edu
In-reply-to: arf@genesis.MCS.COM's message of 15 Apr 1993 22:51:03 -0500
Sorry, ARF - you dog,
That news was suppressed because the Israeli national volleyball team
repeatedly spiked it.
Let this be a lesson to others not to invoke the wrath of sports nuts.
(Brits lead the way in this regard, with ~220 casualties in the last 2
years.)
Anyway, Yigal would never sue.  His life is (presumably) so pristine
that its most intimate details could be revealed without harm to
anyone.  Might even be good instruction for some people I can think of.
Me, I _would_ sue!  I hate the way sports dominates the media.
Anyway, the last 3 ADL agents watching me die of boredom before filing
their reports.  I've damaged their Atlanta operation something fierce.
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Re: Clintons views on Jerusalem
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Summary: Verify statements
Lines: 21
In article <16BB28ABD.DSHAL@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu>, DSHAL@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
> It seems that President Clinton can recognize Jerusalem as Israels capitol
> while still keeping his diplomatic rear door open by stating that the Parties
> concerned should decide the city's final status. Even as I endorse Clintons vie
> w (of course), it is definitely a matter to be decided upon by Israel (and
> other participating neighboring contries).
> I see no real conflict in stating both views, nor expect any better from
> politicians.
> -----
> David Shalhevet / dshal@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu / University of Illinois
> Dept Anim Sci / 220 PABL / 1201 W. Gregory Dr. / Urbana, IL 61801
I was trying to avoid a discussion of the whether Clintons views
should be endorsed or not.  All I was trying to find out was
whether the newspaper article was correct in making these
statements about the President by obtaining some information
about when and where he made these statements.
Thank you.
Ben.
From: B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Zionism is Racism
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: vm1.mcgill.ca
Organization: McGill University
In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
(the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
Steve
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 153
In article <1993Apr20.143453.3127@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:
>Instabul was called Konstantinoupolis from 320 AD until about the 1920s.
>That's about 1600 years. There many people alive today who were born in
>a city called Konstantinoupolis.
I know it doesn't make sense, but since when is 'Napoleon' about
sense, anyway? Further striking bigoted and racist attitude of
certain Greeks still exists in our day. Most Greeks insist even
today, that the 537 year-old capital of the Ottoman Empire should
be called not by its rightful name of Istanbul, but by its half
a millennium-old moniker 'Cons*(whatever).'
Everyone knows that New York City was once called 'New Amsterdam'
but Dutch people do not persist on calling it that today. The name
of Stalingrad too is long gone, replaced by Volgagrad. China's
Peking traded its name for Beiging long ago. Ciudad Trujillo
of the Dominican Republic is now Santa Domingo. Zimbabve's
old colonial capital Salisburry became Harrare. These changes
have all been accepted officially by everyone in the world.
But, Greeks are still determined on calling the Turkish Istanbul
by the name of 'Cons*.'
How can one explain this total intransigence? What makes Greeks
so different from other mortals? 18-year-old questionable
democracy? Why don't they seem to reconcile with the fact,
for instance, that Istanbul changed hands 537 years ago in
1453 AD, and that this predates the discovery of the New
World, by 39 years. The declaration of U.S. independence
in 1776 will come 284 years later.
Shouldn't then, half a millennium be considered enough time for
'Cons*' to be called a Turkish city? Where is the logic in the
Greek reasoning, if there is any? How long can one sit on the
laurels of an ancient civilization? Ancient Greece does not exist,
any more than any other 16 civilizations that existed on the soil
of Anatolia.
These undereducated 'wieneramus' live with an illusion. It
is the same mentality which allows them to rationalize
that Cyprus is a Greek Island. No history book shows
that it ever was. It belonged to the Ottoman Turks 'lock,
stock and barrel' for a period of well over 300 years.
In fact, prior to the Turks' acquisition of it, following
bloody naval battles with the Venetians in 1570 AD, the
island of Cyprus belonged, invariably, to several nations:
The Assyrians, the Sumerians, the Phoenicians, the Egyptians,
the Ottoman Turks, of course in that order, owned it as
their territory. But, it has never been the possession
of the government of Greece - not even for one day -
in the history of the world. Moreover, Cyprus is
located 1500 miles from the Greek mainland, but only
40 miles from Turkiye's southern coastline.
Saddam Hussein claims that Kuwait was once Iraqi
territory and the Greek Cypriot government and
the terrorist Greek governments think that Cyprus
also was once part of the Greek hegemony.
Those 'Arromdians' involved in this grandiose hallucination
should wake up from their sweet daydreams and confront
reality. Again, wishful thinking is unproductive, only
facts count.
As for Selanik,
<<Those Jews who survived these assaults in Southeastern Europe fled
particularly to Salonica, whose Jewish population increased substantially
as a result, from 28,000 in 1876 to 90,000 in 1908, more than half the
total population, though even there increased persecution by local Greeks
led many Jews to flee elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire, particularly to
the great port of Izmir.
Despite all the pressure from Ottomans and foreign Jews alike, the ritual
murders and other assaults by Christians on Jews went on and on. Greek
efforts to decimate the Jewish population of Salonica culminated in 1912
and 1913, following Greek conquest of Salonica during the first Balkan War,
when many of its Jews, were either killed or terrorized into leaving...>>
<<Though Greece was obligated by the post World War I treaties to allow
Jews and other minorities to use their own languages in education and to
practice their religions without hindrance, a law was issued in 1923
which forbad all inhabitants from working on Sunday, stimulating a new
Jewish exodus as it was intended to do. Between 1932 and 1934 there was a
series of anti-Semitic riots in Salonica, with the Cambel quarter, where
most of the remaining Jews lived, being burned to the ground. This
was followed by regulations requiring the use of Greek and prohibiting
Hebrew and Judea-Spanish in the Jewish schools. A start was made also
on expropriating the land of the principal Jewish cemetery in Salonica
for use by the new University in order to derive the Jews out [47]. By
killing and driving out large numbers of Jews, the Greeks left a
substantial Greek majority in the city for the first time, and starting
Salonica Jewry on the way to its final decimation by the Nazis during the
occupation of Greece starting in 1941.
Salonica and Izmir of course were not the only places of refuge for
Jewish refugees entering the Empire during its last century of existence.
Istanbul, Edirne, and other parts of Rumelia and Anatolia received
thousands more. Nor were Jews the only refugees received and helped by
the government of the Sultan. Thousands of Muslims accompanied them in
flight from similar persecutions wherever Balkan christian states gained
independence or expanded. The Russian conquest of the Crimea and the
Caucasus starting in the late eighteenth century, and particularly during
and after the Crimean War, combined with the same independence movements
in Southeastern Europe that had caused so much suffering and flight among
its Jews caused thousands of helpless, ill, and poverty-stricken Muslim
refugees to accompany them into the ever shrinking boundaries of the
Ottoman Empire, with the Istanbul government struggling mightly but vainly
to house and feed them as best it could. From 1850 to 1864 as many as
800,000 Crimean Tatars, Circassians, and other Muslims from north and
east of the Black Sea had entered Anatolia alone, as many as 200,000 more
came during the next twenty years, while 474,389 refugees entered in 1876-
1877 as a result of the Ottoman wars with Russia and the Balkan states,
with an equal number gaining refuge in the European portions of the
Empire.>>
[47] Robert Mantran, 'La structure sociale de la communaute juive de
Salonqiue a la fin du dix-neuvieme siecle', RH no.534 (1980), 391-92;
Nehama VII, 762; Joseph Nehama (Salonica) to AIU (Paris) no.2868/2,
12 May 1903 (AIU Archives I-C-43); and no.2775, 10 January 1900 (AIU
Archives I-C-41), describing daily battles between Jewish and Greek
children in the streets of Salonica. Benghiat, Director of Ecole Moise
Allatini, Salonica, to AIU (Paris), no.7784, 1 December 1909 (AIU
Archives I-C-48), describing Greek attacks on Jews, boycotts of Jewish
shops and manufacturers, and Greek press campaigns leading to blood libel
attacks. Cohen, Ecole Secondaire Moise Allatini, Salonica, to AIU (Paris),
no.7745/4, 4 December 1912 (AIU Archives I-C-49) describes a week of terror
that followed the Greek army occupation  of Salonica in 1912, with the
soldiers pillaging the Jewish quarters and destroying Jewish synagogues,
accompanied by what he described as an 'explosion of hatred' by local
Greek population against local Jews and Muslims. Mizrahi, President of the
AIU at Salonica, reported to the AIU (Paris), no.2704/3, 25 July 1913
(AIU Archives I-C-51) that 'It was not only the irregulars (Comitadjis)
that massacred, pillaged and burned. The Army soldiers, the Chief of
Police, and the high civil officials also took an active part in the
horrors...', Moise Tovi (Salonica) to AIU (Paris) no.3027 (20 August 1913)
(AIU Archives I-C-51) describes the Greek pillage of the Jewish quarter
during the night of 18-19 August 1913.
(AIU = Alliance Israelite Universelle, Paris.)
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: To be exact, 2.5 million Muslims were exterminated by the Armenians.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 287
In article <lt88p0INN2ql@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden) writes:
>1.  So, did the Turks kill the Armenians?
So, did the Jews kill the Germans?
You even make Armenians laugh.
"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of
the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at
least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The
memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and
eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
(Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)
>2.  Or was it the Armenians who massacred the Turks?
Yes. To be exact, Armenians slaughtered 2.5 million Muslim people between
1914 and 1920.
Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman
Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press,
New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.
Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
1967, p. 13.
Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.
"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the
Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character
notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian
Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the
southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia."
(See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of
Transcaucasia).
In 1920, '0' percent Turk.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
Ohanus Appressian
"Men Are Like That"
p. 202.
SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS
1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975
2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951
3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot,
Edward & Arnold, London, 1900
4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972
5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944
6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925
7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
The Century Co., New York, London, 1924
8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951
9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
Melbourne, 1977
10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922
11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
Macmillan & Co., London, 1915
12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928
13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925
14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952
15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17
(Spring 1964)
16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967
17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923
18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
Cambridge, 1953
19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
H. Fertig, New York, 1966
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
Beirut, 1963
21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965
22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard
Jaeschke
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri:
Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S.,
Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian
Question in Turkey")
2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.
3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.
4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970.
T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:
a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari
T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik
a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar
British Archives:
a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files
India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.
a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031
French Archives
Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.
a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.
Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others
A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)
Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.
Russia
Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).
Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Now, the Genocide of the Azeri Turks of x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 69
In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
>At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH
>crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.
Do you have a terminal cold? Karabag is 'Turkish' and will remain
'Turkish'. Here we are, almost at the end of the 20th century, and
a whole community, the Azeri Turks of x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag,
is facing forced assimilation, torture and murder on one hand and
forced exodus, expulsion and genocide on the other, all because
of their ethnic and religious background. And one should ask herself:
is the world community really so powerless? Where are all those human
rights advocates? Where are all the decent people? Are we going to
let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it? The number
of Azeris murdered by the terrorist Armenian army and its savage
gangs is increasing. On the one hand they wish to distort the truth
and on the other, they beg mercy from Turkiye.
The Age...Melbourne...6/3/92
By Helen WOMACK  .... Agdam, Azerbaijan, Thursday
The exact number of victims is still unclear,  but there can be
little  doubt that Azeri civilians were massacred  by  Armenian
fighters in the snowy mountains of Nagorno-Karabakh last week.
Refugees  from the enclave town of Khojaly,  sheltering in  the
Azeri border town of Agdam, give largely consistent accounts of
how  their  enemies  attacked their homes on the  night  of  25
February,    chased  those  who  fled  and  shot  them  in  the
surrounding forests. Yesterday, I saw 75  freshly dug graves in
one  cemetery  in  addition to four mutilated corpses  we  were
shown in the mosque when we arrived in Agdam late on Tuesday. I
also  saw women and children with bullet wounds in a  makeshift
hospital in a string of railway carriages.
Khojaly, an Azeri settlement in the enclave mostly populated by
Armenians,  had a population of about 6000. Mr.  Rashid Mamedov
Commander of Police in Agdam,  said  only about 500  escaped to
his  town.   " So where are the rest?".  Some might have  taken
prisoner, he said, or fled. Many bodies were still lying in the
mountains  because  the  Azeris were short  of  helicopters  to
retrieve them. He believed more than 1000 had perished, some of
cold in temperatures as low as minus 10 degrees.
One  refugee,  Rami Nasiru,  described how Khojaly residents at
first thought the attack was no more than the routine  shooting
to  which they had become accustomed in four years of conflict.
But  when  they  saw the Armenians with  a  convoy  of  armored
personnel carriers, they realised they could not hope to defend
themselves  with  machineguns and grenades,  and fled into  the
forests. In the small hours, the massacre started.
Mr.  Nasiru,  who believes his wife and two children were taken
prisoner,   repeated what many other refugees have said -  that
troops of the former Soviet army helped the Armenians to attack
Khojaly. "It is not my opinion, I saw it with my own eyes."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians will not get away with the genocide of 204,000 Azeri people.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 163
In article <1993Apr20.190606.13801@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
DA] Armenia is involved in fighting with Azarbaijan.  It is Armenian
DA] soldiers from mainland Armenia that are shelling towns in Azarbaijan.
>    Well, this is your opinion !
Are you related to 'Arromdian' of ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism
Triangle? If you feel that you can simply act as a fascist Armenian
governmental crony in this forum you will be sadly mistaken and duly
embarrassed. This is not a lecture to another historical revisionist
and a genocide apologist, but a fact. This time, fascist x-Soviet Armenian
Government will not get away with the genocide of 204,000 Azeri men, women
and children. Not a chance.
>
The SUNDAY TIMES 8 March 1992
>
Morgues fill as Azeris head for all-out war
-------------------------------------------
>
Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers in
the worst violence since the breakup of the Soviet Union, reports from
Agdam
------
>
Khojaly used to be a barren town, with empty shops and treeless dirt
roads. Yet it was still home to thousands of people who, in happier
times, tended fields and flocks of geese. Last week it was wiped off
the map.
>
.......
>
As sickening reports trickled in to the Azerbaijani border town of
Agdam, and the bodies piled up in the morgues, there was little doubt
that Khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been
the site of the most terrible massacre since the Soviet Union broke
apart.
.......
>
I was the last Westerner to visit Khojaly. That was in january and
people were predicting their fate with grim resignation. Zumrut Ezoya,
a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the
town, called her community "sitting ducks, ready to get shot". She and
her family were among the victims of the massacre on February 26.
.......
>
"The Armenians have taken all the outlying villages, one by one, and
the government does nothing." Balakisi Sakikov, 55, a father of five,
said. "Next they will drive us out or kill us all," said Dilbar, his
wife. The couple, their three sons and three daughters were killed in
the assault, as were many other people I had spoken to.
......
>
"It was close to the Armenian lines we knew we would have to cross.
There was a road, and the first units of the column ran across then
all hell broke loose. Bullets were raining down from all sides. we had
just entered their trap."
>
The azeri defenders picked off one by one. Survivors say that Armenian
forces then began a pitiless slaughter, firing at anything moved in
the gullies. A video taken by an azeri cameraman, wailing and crying
as he filmed body after body, showed a grizzly trail of death leading
towards higher, forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge
from the Armenians.
>
"The Armenians just shot and shot and shot," said Omar Veyselov, lying
in hospital in Agdam with sharapnel wounds. "I saw my wife and
daughter fall right by me."
>
People wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the
loved ones. Some vented their fury on foreigners: " Where is my
daughter, where is my son ?" wailed a mother. "Raped. Butchered. Lost."
>
Azerbaijan has said as many as 1,000 refugees were killed as they
tried to flee. The Armenians have denied this, saying the civilians
were caught in "crossfire".
.......
>
Source: The Times, 2 March 1992.
CORPSES LITTER HILLS IN KARABAKH
ANATOL LIEVEN COMES UNDER FIRE WHILE FLYING WITH AZERBAIJANI FORCES TO
INVESTIGATE THE ALLEGED MASS KILLINGS OF REFUGEES BY ARMENIAN TROOPS...
As we swooped low over the snow-covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw
the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as
they ran. An Azerbaijani film of the places we flew over, shown to
journalists afterwards, showed DOZENS OF CORPSES lying in various parts
of the hills.
The Azerbaijanis claim that AS MANY AS 1000 have died in a MASS KILLING
of AZERBAIJANIS fleeing from the town of Khodjaly, seized by Armenians
last week. A further 4,000 are believed to be wounded, frozen to death
or missing...
Seven of us squatted in the cabin of an Azerbaijani M24 attack helicopter
as we flew to investigate the claims of the mass killings. Suddenly there
was a thump against the underside of the aircraft, a red flash of tracer
ripped past the starboard wing, and the helicopter rocked sharply. We
swung round, and there was a deafening burst of fire from the cannon
under our wing as the helicopter crew returned fire.
We had been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post. We swung round
again, tipped to starboard and appeared to dive straight down into a
valley. The brown earth swooped around our heads, the helicopter swung
round again and followed the contours of the ground. Our cannon fired
repeated blasts.
Later it emerged that a civilian helicopter that we had been escorting
had landed successfully at Nakhichevanik in the east of the disputed
enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, to pick up some of the dead. We had, in
fact, been attacked both by ground fire and by an Armenian helicopter.
I had seen the Armenian helicopter intermittently through the window,
its cannons firing, but had thought - mistakenly - that it was on
"our side". Our group of Western journalists had embarked on a
search-and-rescue flight that had become a combat mission.
Our flight consisted of the civilian passenger helicopter and two
M24 Soviet attack helicopters in the Azerbaijani service, nicknamed
flying crocodiles for their armour. Our party was in the second
crocodile. The civilian helicopter's job was to land in the mountains
and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings. The attack helicopters
were there to give covering fire if necessary.
The operation showed a striking sign of the disintegration of the Soviet
armed forces because our pilot was a Russian officer. An Azerbaijani
official told us that there were now five former Soviet military
helicopters -and their pilots- fighting for Azerbaijan. "They have
signed contracts to fly for us," he said. The helicopter we engaged
in combat was most probably flown by a brother-officer of our Russian
pilot, but fighting for the Armenians.
We had taken off just before 5pm on Saturday from Agdam airfield, an
heated for the Armenian-controlled mountains of Karabakh, a sheer
white wall in the distance. The civilian helicopter picked up four
corpses, and it was during this and a previous mission that an
Azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several the several dozen bodies
on the hillsides. We then took off again in a hurry and speed back
towards Azerbaijani lines. Azerbaijani gunners on the last hill before
the plain - and safety - gazed up at us as we passed.
Back at the airfield in Agdam, we took a look the bodies the
civilian helicopter had picked up. Two old men a small girl were
covered with blood, their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor
mortis. They had been shot.
What did our Russian pilot think of the tragedy, our close shave,
and the war in Nagorno-Karabakh? He gave us CHEERFUL GRIN, POLITELY
DECLINED TO ANSWER QUES TIONS, AND MARCHED OFF TO HIS DINNER.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: On the eve of 78th Anniversary Commemoration of the Turkish Holocaust.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 232
In article <1993Apr20.214322.8698@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
OY] Henrik (?),
OY] Your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence. I'm not
OY] going to spend time to review with you the recent history of Cyprus.
>	Good !! Go back to your references and read it over and over ...
I wish the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government would do that. Well,
if you prefer to imagine that the American, European, Jewish and Armenian
scholars were trying to mislead 'Arromdians', be my guest.
Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.
"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city
of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population,
closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan
on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized
and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during
the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
southern side of the lake."
Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers,
Inc., New York (1952).
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).
'The most are inside houses. Come you and look.'
'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
'One is a Turkish officer in uniform. Him you must see.'
"We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space....
'I don't believe you," I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The
man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse.
I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and
went inside.
The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for
its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an
iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black
with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As
the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face
up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what
was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted,
as with Tartars rather than with Turks. Any uniform once on him was gone, so
I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his
slashed genitals."
p. 363 (first paragraph).
'How many people lived there?'
'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
'Did you see any Turk officers?'
'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'
"The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me -
Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into
laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
have been.
From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last
scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags,
looms, even spinning-wheels.
'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must
leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And
for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains.
Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in
a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"
p. 354.
"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
Moslem villages."
p. 358.
"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three
sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov
said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."
p. 360.
"The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds of feet
down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies under that,' said
Dro, pointing. 'Our men also attack from the other sides.'
Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. Bayonets
clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black haunches rippling;
then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the
spur. Armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though
I heard our Utica brass roar.
As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear. A tsing
of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed,
dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow
puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly.
The came a shrill wailing.
Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered about
house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A mosque stood in
clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen
were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot.
'Tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. Others pantomimed them in escape
over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked
breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted, I thought, when by
afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or body. But these shots and
the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries.
At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and
tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."
p. 361 (fourth paragraph).
"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair,
large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble
where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet
had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between
the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun
dress.
The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He
lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the
pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed
just below his neck, into the spine.
There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was
empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking
colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."
p. 358.
"...more stories of Armenian murdering Turks when the czarist troops fled
north. My hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands,
Turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian, Red or Tartar -
coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the hell that would
break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'Armenian'
vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan...
An Armenia without Armenians! Turks under Christian rule? His lips
smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just
Smyrna over again on a bigger scale."
Source: "U.S. Library of Congress": 'Bristol Papers' - General
Correspondence Container #34.
"While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to
govern or handle other races under their power."
Source: K. Gurun, "The Armenian File," (London, Nicosia, Istanbul, 1985).
"Many Muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of Armenian troops
armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of our troops and the
people.....According to documented information, 28 Muslim villages have
been destroyed...young Muslim women have been taken to Kars and Gumru,
hundreds of women and children who were able to flee their villages were
beaten and killed in the mountains..."
Source: W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481.
"As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars
as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre
of the Tartar population."
Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24,
1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"
"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army,
it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against
defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the
sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the
Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."
Source: Quoted by General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner,
February 2, 1919, in the official history, "Les Armees Francaises
au Levant," vol. 1, p. 122.
"They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive
measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their
retreat from Marash."
Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40,
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.
"that they [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred
and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at
least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."
Need I go on?
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
X-Posted-From: mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu
Lines: 46
In article <1993Apr20.190606.13801@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.173009.10580@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) writes:
>
>    Well, this is your opinion !
>
Of course it is!
>    Turkish/ Azeris can BARK all they WANT since the ABOVE is UNTRUE. However,
>    I am sure YOU GUYS would have NEVER brought up ARMENIA's involvement if
>    KARABAKHI-Armenians had had HEAVY losses.
>
And this is your opinion.  It is not any more valid due to repeated
capital letters and words such as 'untrue' 'never' etc.
>	Read what ? The New York Times , that is publishing anti-armenian
>	articles. Nop, I have my resources. Look, everyone knows how aggressive
>        Turks/Azeris have been in the past. Armenians ARE NOT gona sit
>	around and watch FIRE WORKS by AZERIS taught by TURKS.
So Armenians are justified in aggression since supposedly Turks have
been aggressive in the past?  I don't follow your logic.
>DA] I don't wish to get into the Cyprus discussion.  Turkey had the right to
>
>	Not a chance ! You CAN NOT convince me (based on your REASONS)that
>	your GOVERNMENT did the RIGHT thing to invade CYPRUS.
I have said that I don't wish to get into Cyprus discussion and did not
give any reasons for Turkey's involvement.  I also am not trying to
convince you of anything, seeing no reason to waste any time....
>DA] Lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia?  I vote yes for it.
>DA] After all, it is now free.
>
>	Well, I am NOT in the position to agree or disadree with you.
>
>
I am serious.  Let's get soc.culture.armenia started and have some peace
of mind?
Deniz Akkus
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 17
In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
>Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
>the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
>(the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
>saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
>
>Steve
>
I know this paper well, and see it for the exercise in selective morality
and judgement it is. Until such time as it recognizes that *any* religiously
based government is racist, exclusionary and simply built on a philosophy
of "separate but equal" second-class treatment of minorities, it will
continue to be known for its bias. If Jewish nationalism is racism, so is
Islam; anywhere where people are allotted "different rights" according to
race, religion or culture is "racist".
From: friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Subject: Jewish Committee on the Middle East (JCOME)
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
Reply-To: friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
NNTP-Posting-Host: silver.egr.msu.edu
I flipped on my local Cable Access Channel (a channel where any
community member can broadcast whatever they want for about $50
per half hour) and saw a "documentary" (I use this term loosely)
on the conflict in the West Bank.
It was apparently made with a hand held camcorder (the quality was
terrible, and the camera was really jumpy).  The documentary (sic)
told the tales of all of the children who died in the "war" against
the Jews as martyrs.
It was a regular sob story.  One "victimized youth" was recounting
on how all he "really" wants to do is to get an education and that
the big bad Jews won't let him go to high school.  He admittedly
spent 4 years in prison (age 13 to 17) for murdering a Jewish woman
but claims that it was "for the cause."
I have seen this kind of garbage before.  I have a lot of sympathy for
the Palestinian cause (as do many Jews), but I think that even many
Arabs would be ashamed to call this a documentary!
The most suprising part is that the only credits shown at the end
was an address for the makers of the film named JEWISH COMM. ON
THE MIDDLE EAST.
Anybody heard of them?  They make Peace Now look like right-wingers.
Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University
From: friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Reply-To: friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
NNTP-Posting-Host: silver.egr.msu.edu
In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
|> In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
|> Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
|> the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
|> (the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
|> saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
If you want info claiming that blacks were brought to earth 60 trillion
years ago by Aliens from the plante Shabazz, I can send you literature from
the Nation of Islam (Farrakhan's group) who believe this.
If you want info claiming that the Holocaust never happened, I can send you
info from IHR (Institute for Historical Review - David Irving's group), or
just read Dan Gannon's posts on alt.revisionism.
I just wanted to put Steve's post in with the company that it deserves.
|> Steve
Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Lines: 21
cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
# 3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
# could you provide any evidence ?
Yes, Israel has nuclear weapons. However:
1) Their use so far has been restricted to killing deer, by LSD addicted
"Cherrie" soldiers.
2) They are locked in the cellar of the "Garinei Afula" factory, and since
the Gingi lost the key, no one can use them anymore.
3) Even if the Gingi finds the key, the chief Rabbis have a time lock
on the bombs that does not allow them to be activated on the Sabbath
and during weeks which follow victories of the Betar Jerusalem soccer
team. A quick glance at the National League score table will reveal
the strategic importance of this fact.
-Danny Keren.
From: steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel
Nntp-Posting-Host: surya.cs.ucla.edu
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Lines: 25
cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Ten questions about Israel
>I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
>provide
> accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
>indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
>people around me.
[ ... questions omitted ... ]
>Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is
Funny you should mention it, but I've heard these questions time
and again, also.  Why just the other day, a couple neo-Nazis by
UCLA were passing out literature like this.
Cheers,
Steve
--
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #010
Summary: Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 170
Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #010
Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
+-------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                       |
| On the way the driver says, "In fact there aren't any |
| Armenians left. 'They burned them all, beat them all, |
| and stabbed them."                                    |
|							|
+-------------------------------------------------------+
DEPOSITION OF VANYA BAGRATOVICH BAZIAN
Born 1940
Foreman
Baku Spetsmontazh Administration (UMSMR-1)
Resident at Building 36/7, Apartment 9
Block 14
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]
During the first days of the events, the 27th and the 28th [of February], I
was away on a business trip. On the 10th I had got my crew, done the paper-
work, and left for the Zhdanov District. That's in Azerbaijan, near the
Nagorno Karabagh region.
After the 14th, rumors started to the effect that in Karabagh, specifically
in Stepanakert, an uprising had taken place. They said "uprising" in
Azerbaijani, but I don't think it was really an uprising, just a
demonstration. After that the unrest started. Several Armenians living in the
Zhdanov District were injured. How were they injured? They were beaten, even
women; it was said that they were at the demonstrations, but they live here,
and went from here to Karabagh to demonstrate. After that I felt uneasy. There
were some conversations about Armenians among the local population: the
Armenians had done this, the Armenians had done that. Right there at the site.
I was attacked a couple of times by kids. Well true, the guys from my crew
wouldn't let them come at me with cables and knives. After that I felt really
bad. I didn't know where to go. I up and called home. And my children tell me,
"There's unrest everywhere, be careful." Well I had a project going on. I told
the Second Secretary of the District Party Committee what had been going on
and said I wanted to take my crew off the site. They wouldn't allow it, they
said, "Nothing's going to happen to you, we've entrusted the matter to the
police, we've warned everyone in the district, nothing will happen to you."
Well, in fact they did especially detail us a policeman to look after me, he
knows all the local people and would protect me if something happened. This
man didn't leave me alone for five minutes: he was at work the whole time and
afterward he spent the night with us, too.
I sense some disquiet and call home; my wife also tells me, "The situation is
very tense, be careful."
We finished the job at the site, and I left for Sumgait first thing on the
morning of the 29th. When we left the guys warned me, they told me that I
shouldn't tell anyone on the way that I was an Armenian. I took someone else's
business travel documents, in the name of Zardali, and hid my own. I hid it
and my passport in my socks. We set out for Baku. Our guys were on the bus,
they sat behind, and I sat up front. In Baku they had come to me and said that
they had to collect all of our travel documents just in case. As it turns out
they knew what was happening in Sumgait.
I arrive at the bus station and there they tell me that the city of Sumgait is
closed, there is no way to get there. That the city is closed off and the
buses aren't running. Buses normally leave Baku for Sumgait almost every two
minutes. And suddenly--no buses. Well, we tried to get there via private
drivers. One man, an Azerbaijani, said, "Let's go find some other way to get
there." They found a light transport vehicle and arranged for the driver to
take us to Sumgait.
He took us there. But the others had said, "I wouldn't go if you gave me a
thousand rubles." "Why?" "Because they're burning the city and killing the
Armenians. There isn't an Armenian left." Well I got hold of myself so I could
still stand up. So we squared it away, the four of us got in the car, and we
set off for Sumgait. On the way the driver says, "In fact there aren't any
Armenians left. 'They burned them all, beat them all, and stabbed them." Well
I was silent. The whole way--20-odd miles--I was silent. The driver asks me,
"How old are you, old man?" He wants to know: if I'm being that quiet, not
saying anything, maybe it means I'm an Armenian. "How old are you?" he asks
me. I say, "I'm 47." "I'm 47 too, but I call you 'old man'." I say, "It
depends on God, each person's life in this world is different." I look much
older than my years, that's why he called me old man. Well after that he was
silent, too.
We're approaching the city, I look and see tanks all around, and a cordon.
Before we get to the Kavkaz store the driver starts to wave his hand. Well, he
was waving his hand, we all start waving our hands. I'm sitting there with
them, I start waving my hand, too. I realized that this was a sign that meant
there were no Armenians with us.
I look at the city--there is a crowd of people walking down the middle of the
street, you know, and there's no traffic. Well probably I was scared. They
stopped our car. People were standing on the sidewalks. They have armature
shafts, and stones . . . And they stopped us . . .
Along the way the driver tells us how they know who's an Armenian and who's
not. The Armenians usually . . . For example, I'm an Armenian, but I speak
their language very well. Well Armenians usually pronounce the Azeri word for
"nut," or "little nut," as "pundukh," but "fundukh" is actually correct. The
pronunciations are different. Anyone who says "pundukh," even if they're not
Armenian, they immediately take out and start to slash. Another one says,
"There was a car there, with five people inside it," he says. "They started
hitting the side of it with an axe and lit it on fire. And they didn't let the
people out," he says, "they wouldn't let them get out of the car." I only saw
the car, but the driver says that he saw everything. Well he often drives from
Baku to Sumgait and back . . .
When they stop us we all get out of the car. I look and there's a short guy,
his eyes are gleaming, he has an armature shaft in one hand and a stone in
the other and asks the guys what nationality they are one by one. "We're
Azerbaijani,' they tell him, 'no Armenians here." He did come up to me when
we were pulling our things out and says, "Maybe you're an Armenian, old man?"
But in Azerbaijani I say, "You should be ashamed of yourself!" And . . . he
left. Turned and left. That was all that happened. What was I to do? I had
to . . . the city was on fire, but I had to steal my children out of my own
home.
They stopped us at the entrance to Mir Street, that's where the Kavkaz store
and three large, 12-story buildings are. That's the beginning of down-town. I
saw that burned automobile there, completely burned, only metal remained. I
couldn't figure out if it was a Zhiguli or a Zaporozhets. Later I was told it
was a Zhiguli. And the people in there were completely incinerated. Nothing
remained of them, not even any traces. That driver had told me about it, and I
saw the car myself. The car was there. The skeleton, a metallic carcass. About
30 to 40 yards from the Kavkaz store.
I see a military transport, an armored personnel carrier. The hatches are
closed. And people are throwing armature shafts and pieces of iron at it, the
crowd is. And I hear shots, not automatic fire, it's true, but pistol shots.
Several shots. There were Azerbaijanis crowded around that personnel carrier.
Someone in the crowd was shooting. Apparently they either wanted to kill the
soldiers or get a machine gun or something. At that point there was only one
armored personnel carrier. And all the tanks were outside the city, cordoning
off Sumgait.
I walked on. I see two Azerbaijanis going home from the plant. I can tell by
their gait that they're not bandits, they're just people, walking home. I
joined them so in case something happened, in case someone came up to us
and asked questions, either of us would be in a position to answer, you see.
But I avoided the large groups because I'm a local and might be quickly
recognized. I tried to keep at a distance, and walked where there were fewer
people. Well so I walked into Microdistrict 2, which is across from our block.
I can't get into our block, but I walked where there were fewer people, so as
to get around. Well there I see a tall guy and 25 to 30 people are walking
behind him. And he's shouting into a megaphone: "Comrades, the Armenian-
Azerbaijani war has begun!"
The police have megaphones like that. So they're talking and walking around
the second microdistrict. I see that they're coming my way, and turn off
behind a building. I noticed that they walked around the outside buildings,
and inside the microdistricts there were about 5 or 6 people standing on every
corner, and at the middles of the buildings, and at the edges. What they were
doing I can't say, because I couldn't get up close to them, I was afraid. But
the most important thing was to get away from there, to get home, and at least
find out if my children were alive or not . . .
April 20, 1988
Yerevan
- - - reference - - -
[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 158-160
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Lines: 118
Nntp-Posting-Host: viktoria.dsv.su.se
Reply-To: hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
Organization: Dept. of Computer and Systems Sciences, Stockholm University
Henrik?? and Hilmi writes:
|>henrik]  The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their
|>henrik]  RIGHTS to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are
|>henrik]  INVADING their homeland.
|>HE]     Homeland? First Nagarno-Karabagh was Armenians homeland today
|>HE]     Fizuli, Lacin and several villages (in Azerbadjan)
|>HE]     are their homeland. Can't you see the
|>HE]     the  "Great Armenia" dream in this? With facist methods like
|>HE]     killing, raping and bombing villages. The last move was the
|>HE]     blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to
|>HE]     escape the from Lacin, a city that was "given" to the Kurds
|>HE]     by the Armenians.
|>Nagorno-Karabakh is in Azerbaijan not Armenia. Armenians have lived in Nagorno-
|>Karabakh ever since there were Armenians. Armenians used to live in the areas
|>between Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh and this area is being used to invade
|>Nagorno- Karabakh. Armenians are defending themselves. If Azeris are dying
|>because of a policy of attacking Armenians, then something is wrong with this
|>policy.		************
Attacking? Who is attacking who? Even the country you live in,USA, have condemned
Armenia for it's attacking. And you start to say that the attackers
are the Azeris?????
|>Armenians have lived in Nagorno Karabakh ever since there were Armenians
?????
Azeris have lived in Nagorno Karabakh ever since there were Azeris...
Don't come with nonsence, there is no reason to attack a people
just because a man called "Gorbatjov and co." gave the "freedom" to the people
in this area.
|>If I recall correctly, it was Stalin who caused all this problem with land
|>in the first place, not the Armenians.
It's easy for people like you to blame history. The were a lot of
Indians living in USA. There is no reason for these
Indians to attack the "American"
people and say:"It was the fault of the government of Germany and Great
Britain, because they made people come to our place......" Armenians lived in
harmony with the Azeris until "Gorbatjov and co." gave "freedom" to the people
in Karabag, then the Armenians started to kill, rape and torture the Azeris, not only
in Karabag but also noe in Azerbadjan....
|>henrik]  However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane
|>henrik]  to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
|>henrik]  that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
|>henrik]  (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.
|>HE]     Don't speak about things you don't know: 8 U.S. Cargo planes
|>HE]     were heading to Armenia. When the Turkish authorities
|>HE]     announced that they were going to search these cargo
|>HE]     planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in Germany.
|>HE]     5 of these planes were searched in Turkey. The content of
|>HE]     of the other 3 planes? Not hard to guess, is it? It was sure not
|>HE]     humanitarian aid.....
|>What story are you talking about? Planes from the U.S. have been sending
|>aid into Armenian for two years. I would not like to guess about what were in
|>the 3 planes in your story, I would like to find out.
|>HE]     Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.
|>HE]     Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons
|>HE]     to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan
|>HE]     it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons
|>HE]     since it's content is announced to be weapons?
|>It's too bad you would want Turkey to start a war with Armenia.
That's what i don't want, you couldn't imagine the result of a war.....
So France, Greece and  USA wants to start fighting with Azerbadjan????
They give a lot more weapons to the Armenians without
saying it, that's no secret any more......
I must say that these Armenian Government is very shortsighted.
Do they think that they shall move from it's neigbours when the war
is over???? The neighbour around will be there and Armenia must
live in harmony with these if they don't want a "stone-age" country,
for that's what's will happen Armenia if the wars continues.
Look, The President of Turkey, Turgut Ozal, died and  Petrosyan
the Armenian Presindent is now in Turkey for the funeral. Is it because
he liked him? Sure NOT, because Armenia needs it's neighbours and must
live with these. But Armenia can't stop this war with continued ordertaking
from states like France and USA. With other words, if you love your people
you must think twice.....
And i wonder, "Shoot down turkish planes" WITH WHAT????? ohhh i forgot
the Armenians can't find food but there are a lot of arms from the mentioned
countries.....
Hilmi Eren
Stockholm University
Sweden
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: About this 'Center for Policy Resea
Nf-ID: #R:1qu75d$256@usenet.ins.cwru.edu:-1462127590:cdp:1483500350:000:1634
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 21 04:21:00 1993
Lines: 33
It seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested
who is behind the Center for Polict Research. I will oblige.
My name is Elias Davidsson, Icelandic citizen, born in Palestine. My
mother was thrown from Germany because she belonged to the 'undesirables'
(at that times this group was defined as 'Jews'). She was forced to go
to Palestine due to many  cynical factors. I have meanwhile settled in
Iceland (30 years ago) and met many people who were thrown out from
my homeland, Palestine, because of the same reason (they belonged to
the 'indesirables'). These people include my neighbors in Jerusalem
with the children of whom I played as child. Their crime: Theyare
not Jews. My conscience does not accept such injustice, period. My
work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism
and racial discrimination. Those who protest against such practices
in Arab countries have my support - as long as their protest is based
on a principled position, but not as a tactic to deflect criticism
from Israel. The struggle against discrimination and racism is universal.
The Center for Policy Research is a name I gave to those activities
undertaken under my guidance in different domains, and which command
the support of many volunteers in Iceland. It is however not a formal
institution and works with minimal funds.
Professionally I am music teacher and composer. I have published
several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in Europe.
I would hope that discussion about Israel/Palestine be conducted in
a more civilized manner. Calling names is not helpful.
Elias Davidsson
ICELAND
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by
Nf-ID: #R:1993Apr19.223054.10273@cirrus.co:779683862:cdp:1483500351:000:2238
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 21 04:44:00 1993
Lines: 42
In my postings I have made a proposal for comments and discussion.
Those who don't want to discuss its merits and drawbacks are not forced to
do so.
However I would make anybody who incites others to harm me or harass
in a personal manner, legally responsible for their deeds. I cannot
accept and will not accept threats to my personal integrity and I
urge anybody who opposes terror to refrain from direct or indriect
threats.
PS: My proposal has nothing to do with Nazi eugenics. It has to do with
the search for peace which would enable justice. I don't consider that
justice is done, when non-Jews who fled or were expelled in 1948/1967
are not permitted to return to their homeland. This can at best be called
pragmatism, a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong. It can
never be called justice. And peace without justice will never be peace.
It is my conviction that the situation in which a state, through the
law, attempts to discourage mixed marriages (as Israel does), is not
normal. Such a state resembles more Nazi Germany and South Africa than
Western democracies, such as the United States, in which Jews are free to
marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands. My proposal may have
drawbacks but it is meant to force anybody to anything, just to
compensate for a certain time mixed couples for the hardships tehy
endure in a society which disapproves of intermarriage.When the day
will come and Israel will become a truly civil and decmoractic society,
in which the state is not concerned with the religious or ethnic
affiliation of its constituency, such a Fund would not be needed any
more. I don't mind if Jews wish to marry Jews and keep their
traditions, why not ? But this is not the affairs of a state. Western
democracy clearly separates these domains and I am certain that
most
American Jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed
Christian State and to have their Green cards stamped with a mark JEW.
I would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views
and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional, infantile
outbursts which might leed readers to infer that Jews who respect
Judaism are uncivilized. Such behaviour is not good for Judaism.
Elias
From: ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator)
Subject: A Moment Of Silence
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: sdcc14.ucsd.edu
April 24th is approaching, and Armenians around the world
are getting ready to remember the massacres of their family members
by the Turkish government between 1915 and 1920.
At least 1.5 Million Armenians perished during that period,
and it is important to note that those who deny that this event
ever took place, either supported the policy of 1915 to exterminate
the Armenians, or, as we have painfully witnessed in Azerbaijan,
would like to see it happen again...
Thank you for taking the time to read this post.
-Helgge
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian slaughter of defenseless Muslim children and pregnant women.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 81
In article <1993Apr20.232449.22318@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
BM] Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.
BM] It seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   Again, Armenians in KARABAKH are SIMPLY defending themselves. What do
The winding down of winter puts you in a heavy 'Arromdian' mood? I'll
see if I can get our dear "Mehmetcik" to write you a letter giving
you and your criminal handlers at the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and
Revisionism Triangle some military pointers, like how to shoot armed
adult males instead of small Muslim children and pregnant women.
Source: 'The Times,' 3 March 1992
MASSACRE UNCOVERED....
By ANATOL LIEVEN,
More than sixty bodies, including those of women and children, have
been spotted on hillsides in Nagorno-Karabakh, confirming claims
that Armenian troops massacred Azeri refugees. Hundreds are missing.
Scattered amid the withered grass and bushes along a small valley
and across the hillside beyond are the bodies of last Wednesday's
massacre by Armenian forces of Azerbaijani refugees.
From that hill can be seen both the Armenian-controlled town of
Askeran and the outskirts of the Azerbaijani military headquarters
of Agdam. Those who died very nearly made it to the safety of their
own lines.
We landed at this spot by helicopter yesterday afternoon as the last
troops of the Commonwealth of Independent states began pulling out.
They left unhindered by the warring factions as General Boris Gromov,
who oversaw the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, flew to Stepanakert
to ease their departure.
A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijaines to collect their
dead and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest. All the
same, two attack helicopters circled continuously the nearby Armenian
positions.
In all, 31 bodies could be counted at the scene. At least another
31 have been taken into Agdam over the past five days. These figures
do not include civilians reported killed when the Armenians stormed
the Azerbaijani town of Khodjaly on Tuesday night. The figures also
do not include other as yet undiscovered bodies
Zahid Jabarov, a survivor of the massacre, said he saw up to 200
people shot down at the point we visited, and refugees who came
by different routes have also told of being shot at repeatedly and
of leaving a trail of bodies along their path. Around the bodies
we saw were scattered possessions, clothing and personnel documents.
The bodies themselves have been preserved by the bitter cold which
killed others as they hid in the hills and forest after the massacre.
All are the bodies of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly
clothing of workers.
Of the 31 we saw, only one policeman and two apparent national
volunteers were wearing uniform. All the rest were civilians,
including eight women and three small children. TWO GROUPS,
APPARENTLY FAMILIES, HAD FALLEN TOGETHER, THE CHILDREN CRADLED
IN THE WOMEN'S ARMS.
SEVERAL OF THEM, INCLUDING ONE SMALL GIRL, HAD TERRIBLE HEAD
INJURIES: ONLY HER FACE WAS LEFT. SURVIVORS HAVE TOLD HOW THEY
SAW ARMENIANS SHOOTING THEM POINT BLANK AS THEY LAY ON THE GROUND.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Traditional and Historical Armenian Barbarism (Was Re: watch OUT!!).
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 106
In article <21APR199314025948@elroy.uh.edu> st156@elroy.uh.edu (Fazia Begum Rizvi) writes:
>Seems to me that a lot of good muslims would care about those terms.
>Especially those affected by the ideology and actions that such terms
>decscribe. The Bosnians suffering from such bigotry comes to mind. They
>get it from people who call them 'dirty descendants of Turks', from
>people who hate their religion, and from those who don't think they are
>really muslims at all since they are white. The suffering that they are
Let us not forget about the genocide of the Azeri people in 'Karabag'
and x-Soviet Armenia by the Armenians. Between 1914 and 1920, Armenians
committed unheard-of crimes, resorted to all conceivable methods of
despotism, organized massacres, poured petrol over babies and burned
them, raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound
hand and foot, took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated
personal property and real estate. And today, they put Azeris in the most
unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history.
AREF  SADIKOV sat  quietly  in the  shade of  a  cafe-bar on  the
Caspian Sea  esplanade of Baku and  showed a line of  stitches in
his trousers, torn  by an Armenian bullet as he  fled the town of
Hojali just over three months ago, writes Hugh Pope.
"I'm still  wearing the same  clothes, I don't have  any others,"
the  51-year-old carpenter  said,  beginning his  account of  the
Hojali disaster. "I was wounded in five places, but I am lucky to
be alive."
Mr Sadikov and  his wife were short of  food, without electricity
for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12
days. They  sensed the  Armenian noose was tightening  around the
2,000 to  3,000 people left in  the straggling Azeri town  on the
edge of Karabakh.
"At about 11pm  a bombardment started such as we  had never heard
before,  eight  or  nine   kinds  of  weapons,  artillery,  heavy
machine-guns, the lot," Mr Sadikov said.
Soon neighbours were  pouring down the street  from the direction
of  the  attack. Some  huddled  in  shelters but  others  started
fleeing the town,  down a hill, through a stream  and through the
snow into a forest on the other side.
To escape, the  townspeople had to reach the Azeri  town of Agdam
about 15  miles away. They  thought they  were going to  make it,
until at  about dawn  they reached a  bottleneck between  the two
Armenian villages of Nakhchivanik and Saderak.
"None of my group was hurt up to then ... Then we were spotted by
a  car on  the road,  and the  Armenian outposts  started opening
fire," Mr Sadikov said.
Azeri militiamen fighting their way  out of Hojali rushed forward
to force  open a  corridor for the  civilians, but  their efforts
were mostly  in vain.  Mr Sadikov  said only  10 people  from his
group of  80 made it  through, including his wife  and militiaman
son.  Seven  of  his  immediate  relations  died,  including  his
67-year-old elder brother.
"I only had time to reach down  and cover his face with his hat,"
he said, pulling his own big  flat Turkish cap over his eyes. "We
have never got any of the bodies back."
The first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire.
One hero  of the  evacuation, Alif  Hajief, was  shot dead  as he
struggled to change  a magazine while covering  the third group's
crossing, Mr Sadikov said.
Another hero,  Elman Memmedov, the  mayor of Hojali, said  he and
several others  spent the whole day  of 26 February in  the bushy
hillside, surrounded by  dead bodies as they tried  to keep three
Armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay.
As the  survivors staggered the  last mile into Agdam,  there was
little comfort  in a town from  which most of the  population was
soon to flee.
"The night  after we reached  the town  there was a  big Armenian
rocket attack. Some people just  kept going," Mr Sadikov said. "I
had to  get to the  hospital for treatment. I  was in a  bad way.
They even found a bullet in my sock."
Victims of  war: An  Azeri woman  mourns her  son, killed  in the
Hojali massacre in February  (left). Nurses struggle in primitive
conditions  (centre)  to  save  a  wounded  man  in  a  makeshift
operating  theatre set  up  in a  train carriage.  Grief-stricken
relatives in  the town of Agdam  (right) weep over the  coffin of
another of the massacre victims. Calculating the final death toll
has been  complicated because Muslims  bury their dead  within 24
hours.
Photographs: Liu Heung / AP
Frederique Lengaigne / Reuter
THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians serving in the Wehrmacht and the SS.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 63
In article <735426299@amazon.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Eduard Wiener) writes:
>	   I can see how little taste you actually have in the
>	   cheap shot you took at me when I did nothing more
>	   than translate Kozovski's insulting reference
>	   to Milan Pavlovic.
C'mon, you still haven't corrected yourself, 'wieneramus'. In April
1942, Hitler was preparing for the invasion of the Caucasus. A
number of Nazi Armenian leaders began submitting plans to German
officials in spring and summer 1942. One of them was Souren Begzadian
Paikhar, son of a former ambassador of the Armenian Republic in Baku.
Paikhar wrote a letter to Hitler, asking for German support to his
Armenian national socialist movement Hossank and suggesting the
creation of an Armenian SS formation in order
"to educate the youth of liberated Armenia according to the
spirit of the Nazi ideas."
He wanted to unite the Armenians of the already occupied territories
of the USSR in his movement and with them conquer historic Turkish
homeland. Paikhar was confined to serving the Nazis in Goebbels
Propaganda ministry as a speaker for Armenian- and French-language
radio broadcastings.[1] The Armenian-language broadcastings were
produced by yet another Nazi Armenian Viguen Chanth.[2]
[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), p. 106.
[2] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg
Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 124 and 129.
The establishment of Armenian units in the German army was favored
by General Dro (the Butcher). He played an important role in the
establishment of the Armenian 'legions' without assuming any
official position. His views were represented by his men in the
respective organs. An interesting meeting took place between Dro
and Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler toward the end of 1942.
Dro discussed matters of collaboration with Himmler and after
a long conversation, asked if he could visit POW camp close to
Berlin. Himmler provided Dro with his private car.[1]
A minor problem was that some of the Soviet nationals were not
'Aryans' but 'subhumans' according to the official Nazi philosophy.
As such, they were subject to German racism. However, Armenians
were the least threatened and indeed most privileged. In August
1933, Armenians had been recognized as Aryans by the Bureau of
Racial Investigation in the Ministry for Domestic Affairs.
[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 112-113.
Need I go on?
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Keeping the silent memory of 2.5 million Muslim people alive.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 34
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages).
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 193.
"Their [Muslim] villages were destroyed and they themselves were slain or
driven out of the country."
p. 218.
"We Armenians did not spare the Tartars. If persisted in, the slaughtering
of prisoners, the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become
commonplace actions expected and accepted as a matter of course.
I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground,
in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. They had been as helpless
and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as soldiers die in the
heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands,
and exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with
their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The religious persecution, cultural oppression and economical...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 161
In article <1993Apr21.202728.29375@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:
>You may not be afraid of anything but you act as if you are.
I always like your kind of odds. The Greek governments must be held
to account for the sub-human conditions of the Turkish minority living
in the Western Thrace under the brutal Greek domination. The religious
persecution, cultural oppression and economical ex-communication applied
to the Turkish population in that area are the dimensions of the human
rights abuse widespread in Greece.
"Greece's Housing Policies Worry Western Thrace Turks"
...Newly built houses belonging to members of the minority
community in Dedeagac province, had, he said, been destroyed
by Evros province public works department on Dec. 4.
Sungar added that they had received harsh treatment by the
security forces during the demolition.
"This is not the first demolition in Dedeagac province; more
than 40 houses were destroyed there between 1979-1984 and
members of that minority community were made homeless," he
continued.
"Greece Government Rail-Roads Two Turkish Ethnic Deputies"
While World Human Rights Organizations Scream, Greeks
Persistently Work on Removing the Parliamentary Immunity
of Dr. Sadik Ahmet and Mr. Ahmet Faikoglu.
In his 65-page confession, Salman Demirok, a former chief of PKK
operations in Hakkari confessed that high-level relations between
PKK, Greece and Greek Cypriot administration existed.
According to Demirok, Greek Cypriot administration not only
gives shelter to PKK guerillas but also supplies them with
food and weapons at the temporary camps set up in its territory.
Demirok disclosed that PKK has three safe houses in South Cyprus,
used by terrorists such as Ferhat. In the camps, he added,
terrorists were trained to use various weapons including RPG's
and anti-aircraft guns which had been purchased directly from
the Greek government. Greek Cypriot government has gone to the
extent of issuing special identification cards to PKK members so
that they can travel from one region to another without being
confronted by legal obstacles. Demirok's account was confirmed
by another PKK defector, Fatih Tan, who gave himself over to
police in Hakkari after spending four years with PKK. Tan explained
that the terrorists went through a training in camps in South Cyprus,
sometimes for a period of 12 weeks or more.
"Torture in Greece: Hidden Reality"
Case 1: Kostas Andreadis and Dimitris Voglis.
...Andreadis' head was covered with a hood and he was tortured
by falanga (beating on the soles of the feet), electric shocks,
and was threatened with being thrown out of the window. An
official medical report clearly documented this torture....
Case 2: Horst Bosniatzki, a West German Citizen.
...At midnight he was taken to the beach, chains were put to his
feet and he was threatened to be thrown to the sea. He was dragged
along the beach for about a 1.5 Km while being punched on the
head and kidneys...Back on the police station, he was beaten
on the finger tips with a thin stick until one of the fingertips
split open....
Case 3: Torture of Dimitris Voglis.
Case 4: Brothers Vangelis (16) and Christos Arabatzis (12),
Vasilis Papadopoulos (13), and Kostas Kiriazis (13).
Case 5: Torture of Eight Students at Thessaloniki Police
Headquarters.
SOURCE: The British Broadcasting Corporation, Summary of
World  Broadcasting -July 6, 1987: Part 4-A: The
Middle East, ME/8612/A/1.
"Abu Nidal's Advisers" Reportedly Training
"PKK & ASALA Militants" in Cyprus
Nicosia, Ankara,  Tel Aviv. The Israeli  secret service,
Mossad,  is   reported  to  have   acquired  significant
information in connection  with the camps set  up in the
Troodos  mountains   in  Cyprus  for  the   training  of
militants of the PKK and ASALA {Armenian Secret Army for
the Liberation  of Armenia}. According to  sources close
to Mossad, about 700 Kurdish, Greek Cypriot and Armenian
militants  are   undergoing  training  in   the  Troodos
mountains in  southern Cyprus.  The same  sources stated
that Abu  Nidal's special  advisers are  giving military
training to  the PKK and  ASALA militants in  the camps.
They added that the  militants leave southern Cyprus for
Libya, Lebanon, Syria, Greece  and Iran after completing
their training.  Mossad has established that  due to the
clashes  which were  taking  place  among the  terrorist
groups based  in Syria, the PKK  and ASALA organisations
moved to  the Greek Cypriot  part of Cyprus,  where they
would  be  more  comfortable. They  also  transferred  a
number of  their camps in  northern Syria to the Troodos
mountains.
Mossad  revealed that  the  Armenian National  Movement,
which is known as the MNA, has opened liaison offices in
Nicosia, Athens and  Tripoli in order to  meet the needs
of the  camps. The offices are used to provide  material
support for the  Armenian  camps. Meanwhile, the  leader
of the  Popular Front for  the Liberation of  Palestine,
George  Habash, is  reported  to  have ordered  his  men
not  to   participate  in  the  operations  carried  out
by  the  PKK &  ASALA, which  he  described  as "extreme
racist,  extreme  nationalist  and   fascist."  Reliable
sources have said that  Habash believed that  the recent
operations carried  out by the PKK  militants  show that
organisation  to  be a  band  of  irregulars  engaged in
extreme  nationalist  operations.  They  added  that  he
instructed  his militants  to sever their links with the
PKK  and avoid clashing with it. It has been established
that George Habash  expelled ASALA  militants  from  his
camp  after ASALA's  connections  with  drug trafficking
were exposed.
Source: Alan Cowell, 'U.S. & Greece in Dispute on Terror,' The New
York Times, June 27, 1987, p. 4.
Special to The New York Times
ATHENS, June 26 - A dispute developed today between Athens and
Washington over United States intelligence reports saying that
Athens, for several months, conducted negotiations with the
terrorist known as Abu Nidal...
They said the contacts were verified in what were termed hard
intelligence reports.
Abu Nidal leads the Palestinian splinter group Al Fatah
Revolutionary Council, implicated in the 1985 airport
bombings at Rome and Vienna that contributed to the Reagan
Administration's decision to bomb Tripoli, Libya, last year.
In Washington, State Department officials said that when
Administration officials learned about the contacts, the
State Department drafted a strongly worded demarche. The
officials also expressed unhappiness with Greece's dealings
with ASALA, the Armenian Liberation Army, which has carried
out terrorist acts against Turks....
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
Lines: 48
>From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
>Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
>Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
>Date: 23 Apr 1993 12:55:47 GMT
>Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
>
>
>   Although I realize that principle is not one of your strongest
>points, I would still like to know why do do not ask any question
>of this sort about the Arab countries.
>
>   If you want to continue this think tank charade of yours, your
>fixation on Israel must stop.  You might have to start asking the
>same sort of questions of Arab countries as well.  You realize it
>would not work, as the Arab countries' treatment of Jews over the
>last several decades is so bad that your fixation on Israel would
>begin to look like the biased attack that it is.
>
>   Everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid 'Center for
>Policy Research' is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot
>who hates Israel.
>
>   Why don't you try being honest about your hatred of Israel?  I
>have heard that your family once lived in Israel, but the members
>of your family could not cut the competition there.  Is this true
>about your family?  Is this true about you?  Is this actually not
>about Israel, but is really a personal vendetta?  Why are you not
>the least bit objective about Israel?  Do you think that the name
>of your phony-baloney center hides your bias in the least?  Get a
>clue, Mr. Davidsson.  Haven't you realized yet that when you post
>such stupidity in this group, you are going to incur answers from
>people who are armed with the truth?  Haven't you realized that a
>piece of selective data here and a piece there does not make up a
>truth?  Haven't you realized that you are in over your head?  The
>people who read this group are not as stupid as you would hope or
>need them to be.  This is not the place for such pseudo-analysis.
>You will be continually ripped to shreds, until you start to show
>some regard for objectivity.  Or you can continue to show what an
>anti-Israel zealot you are, trying to disguise your bias behind a
>pompous name like the 'Center for Policy Research.'  You ought to
>know that you are a laughing stock, your 'Center' is considered a
>joke, and until you either go away, or make at least some attempt
>to be objective, you will have a place of honor among the clowns,
>bigots, and idiots of Usenet.
I couldn't have said it better, Mark!
- Mike.
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Lines: 47
In article <C5wB46.I3o@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes...
>In article <22APR199307534304@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>> [I said the fixation on Bosnia is due to it being in a European country,
>>>  rather than the third world]
>>> [Ken says intervention in Somalia is a counter-example]
>>I am a staunch Republican, BTW.  The irony of arguing against military
>>intervention with arguments based on Vietnam has not escaped me.  I was opposed
>>to US intervention in Somalia for the same reasons, although clearly it was
>>not nearly as risky.
>
>Based on the same reasons?  You mean you were opposed to US intervention in
>Somalia because since Somalia is a European country instead of the third world,
>the desire to help Somalia is racist?  I don't think this "same reason" applies
>to Somalia at all.
No, you have completely misunderstood.  I was opposed to intervention in
Somalia for the same reason I am opposed to intervention in Bosnia - there is
no security interest of the United States there which justifies risking the
lives of American servicemen, and there are too many crises in the world for us
to take on all of them.  In the case of Bosnia, the risks are obviously much
greater, and there are other countries in a much better position and with far
better reasons to take action than the US.
>The whole point is that Somalia _is_ a third world country, and we were more
>willing to send troops there than to Bosnia--exactly the _opposite_ of what
>the "fixation on European countries" theory would predict.  (Similarly, the
>desire to help Muslims being fought by Christians is also exactly the opposite
>of what that theory predicts.)
You continue to misunderstand.  I did not say the reason why people want to
intervene is because of racist (<- you seem to be overly fond of using this
word, btw.  I said the phenomenon was race-related, which is not the same as
racist.  Perhaps this distinction is too subtle for you to grasp) motives - I
said the attention and outrage at the entire Yugoslavian situation was a result
of it being 1) closer to home, 2) happening to people we can identify with, and
3) relentlessly harped on by the media.  I never said anything about which side
would be preferred, which has a lot more to do with the presentation of the
conflict than any psychological factors.  I think there is no doubt that despite
the fact we intervened in Somalia, the level of attention devoted to there was
considerably less than what is devoted to Bosnia, if the newspapers and tv news
I see are any guide.
Dave
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: More on Center for Anti-Irsael Rhetoric
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
Dear Mr. Davidsson,
You claim that your purpose is to fight racism.  But you don't
seem to have any interest in injustice except that which may have
been committed by Israel.  The treatment of Jews in Arab nations,
an injustice of staggerring proportions, is an injustice that you
do not seem to care the least bit about.  Why not?
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: No humanity in Bosnia
Keywords: Barbarism
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: world
Lines: 47
In <1993Apr15.135934.23814@julian.uwo.ca> mrizvi@gfx.engga.uwo.ca (Mr. Mubashir Rizvi) writes:
>It is very encouraging that a number of people took so interest in my posting.I recieved a couple of letters too,some has debated the statement that events in Bosnia are unprecedented in the history of the modern world.Those who contest this statement present the figures of the World War II.However we must keep in mind that it was a World War and no country had the POWER to stop it,today is the matter not of the POWER but of the WILL.It
>seems to be that what we lack is the will.
The idea of the U.S, or any other nation, taking action, i.e., military
intervention, in Bosnia has not been well thought out by those who
advocate such action. After the belligerants are subdued, it would require
an occupation force for one or two generations. If you will stop and
think about it, you will realize that these people have never forgotten
a single slight or injury, they have imbibed hatred with their mother's
milk. If we stop the fighting, seize and destroy all weapons, they will
simply go back to killing each other with clubs. And the price for this
futility will be the lives of the young men and women we send there to
die. A price I am unwilling to even consider.
>Second point of difference (which makes it different from the holocast(sp?) ) is that at that time international community
>didnot have enough muscle to prevent the unfortunate event,
There is no valid comparison to the Holocaust. All of the Jewish people
that I have known as friends were not brought up to hate. To be wary of
others, most certainly, but not to hate. And except for the Warsaw
uprising, they were unarmed (and even in Warsaw badly out-gunned).
It is very easy to speak of muscle when they are someone else's muscles.
Suppose we do this thing, what will you tell the parents, wives, children,
lovers of those we are sending to die? That they gave their lives in some noble cause? Noble cause, separating some mad dogs who will turn on them.
Well, I will offer you some muscle. Suppose we tell them that they have
one week (this will give foreign nationals time to leave) to cease
their bloodshed. At the end of that week, bring in the Tomahawk firing
ships and destroy Belgrade as they destroyed the Bosnian cities. Perhaps
when some of their cities are reduced to rubble they will have a sudden
attack of brains. Send in missiles by all means, but do not send in
troops.
>today inspite of all the might,the international community is not just standing neutral but has placed an arms embargo which
By all means lift the embargo.
>is to the obvious disadvantage of the weeker side and therefore to the advantage of the bully.Hence indirecltly and possibly
>unintentionally, mankind has sided with the killers.And this,I think is unprecedented in the history of the modern world.
Which killers? Do you honestly believe they are all on one side?
>M.Rizvi
>
REB
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 81
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: composer.think.com
In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|>
|> In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|> |>
|> |> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
|> |> should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
|> |> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
|> |> innocent lives?
|>
|> Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
|> civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country? If the
|> buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why is it
|> further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why not just
|> kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there is more to
|> the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... "GETTING BACK"
|> ..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the villages. The least
|> it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli government for the lives of
|> civilians.
If you recall, a subject was raised some weeks ago that touched upon
this.  When someone claimed that guerillas were manifestations of
popular sentiment, the topic arose:"When does a civilian stop
becoming a civilian?".  If he houses and shelters guerillas of
his own free will, aiding them, has he violated his "civilian" status?
|> |> What? So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states
|> |> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
|> |> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the
|> |> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their
|> |> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
|> |> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of
|> |> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
|>
|> If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
|> no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks.
But don't you see that the same statement can be made both ways?
If Lebanon was interested in peace then it should accept the word
of Israel that the attacks were the cause for war and disarming the
Hizbollah will remove the cause for its continued occupancy.  Afterall,
Israel has already staged two parts of the withdrawal from areas
it occupied in Lebanon during SLG.
|> Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
|> disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
|> not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
|> Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. Of course, if Israel would withdraw
|> from Lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
|> make the Lebanese so mad as to do that. Furthermore, with Hezbollah
|> subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.
That is not exactly true.  The Hizbollah and their affiliated groups
have made several attempts to infiltrate the border of Israel.
|> |> It has not. Without the support, and active involvement, of Syria,
|> |> Lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred.
|> |> Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain
|> |> control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.
|>
|> Tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the Syrian border?
|> Not lately, eh?
|>
|> Israel knows very well that the Syrians are able to restrain ALL who would use
|> territory under their control to attack Israel. While Lebanon would be better
|> off with Syria and Israel out of its borders, the presence of Syrian troops
|> in Lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on Israeli territory (not on
|> Israeli troops in Lebanon, however. Please note the distinction) in the
|> past two years.
True, but the Syrians did allow (until at least 1984) guerillas to operate
in the areas that were under their control, provided that those guerillas
were attacking Israeli lines.
The problem is that Syria is also not as stable a partner for long term
peace as others in the area might be.
--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: composer.think.com
In article <1993Apr16.141204.21479@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|>
|>
|> BTW, does the Litani River not flow West and not South? I think that its waters
|> stay entirely within Lebanese territory and so what Hasan says about the Jordan
|> River makes no sense, in any case. The Hasbani River, on the other hand, flows
|> into the Jordan, if I am not mistaken.
The Litani river flows in a west-southwestern direction and indeed does
not run through the buffer zone.  The Hasbani does flow into the Jordan
but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write, there has been
no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to
climatic changes in rainfall.
|> Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: ucer@ee.rochester.edu (Kamil B. Ucer)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Organization: University of Rochester Department of Electrical Engineering
In article <1993Apr16.142935.535@cs.yale.edu> karage@scus1.ctstateu.edu (Angelos Karageorgiou Greek and Macedon the only combination) writes:
>
>	Ok. My Aykut., what about the busload of Greek turists that was
>torched, and all the the people in the buis died. Happened oh, about 5
>years ago in Instanbul.
>	What about the Greeks in the islands of Imbros and tenedos, they
>are not allowed to have churches any more, instead momama turkey has
>turned the church into a warehouse, I got a picture too.
>	What about the pontian Greeks of Trapezounta and Sampsounta,
>what you now call Trabzon and Sampson, they spoke a 2 thousand year alod
>language, are there any left that still speek or were they Islamicised?
>	Before we start another flamefest , and before you start quoting
>Argic all over again, or was it somebody else?, please think. I know it
>is a hard thing to do for somebody not equipped , but try nevertheless.
>	If Turks in Greece were so badly mistreated how come they
>elected two,m not one but two, representatives in the Greek government?
>How come they have free(absolutely free) hospitalization and education?
>Do the Turks in Turkey have so much?If they do then you have every right
>to shout, untill then you can also move to Greece and enjoy those
>privileges. But I forget , for you do study in a foreign university,
>some poor shod is tiling the earth with his own sweat.
>	BTW is Aziz Nessin still writing poetry? I'd like to read some
>of his new stuff. Also who was the guy that wrote "On the mountains of
>Tayros." ? please respond kindly to the last two questions, I am
>interested in finding more books from these two people.
>
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Yeian kai Eytyxeian  | The opinions expressed above are nobody else's but
>Angelos Karageorgiou | mine,MINE,MIIINNE,MIIINNEEEE,aaaarrgghhhh..(*&#$$*((+_$%
>Live long & Prosper  | NO CARRIER
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>     Any and all mail sent to me , can and will be used in any manner        <
>>     whatsoever. I may repost or publicise parts of messages or whole        <
>>     messages. If you disagree, please exercise your freedom of speech       <
>>     and don't send me anything.                                             <
Dear Mr. Karageorgiou,
I would like to clarify several misunderstandings in your posting. First the    bus incident which I believe was in Canakkale three years ago, was done by a    mentally ill person who killed himself afterwards. The Pontus Greeks were ex-   changedwith Turks in Greece in 1923. I have to logout now since my Greek friend
Yiorgos here wants to use the computer. Well, I'll be back.Asta la vista baby.
From: gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a KAAN,TIMUCIN)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2
Keywords: effective Greek & Armenian postings
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Lines: 21
Who the hell is this guy David Davidian. I think he talks too much..
Yo , DAVID you would better shut the f... up.. O.K ?? I don't like
your attitute. You are full of lies and shit. Didn't you hear the
saying "DON'T MESS WITH A TURC!!"...
See ya in hell..
Timucin.
--
KAAN,TIMUCIN
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1091a
Internet: gt1091a@prism.gatech.edu
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?
Nntp-Posting-Host: supergas
Reply-To: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Lines: 40
In article <1993Apr13.164305.701@bernina.ethz.ch>, nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch (Nadeem Malik) writes:
>
>Actually, if can remember correctly, was it not reported and even on camera
>some time during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, or when the itifada began,
>that CNN caught regular uniformed Israeli soldiers breaking the arms of
>some Arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner, (someone
>please give full details if they can remember).
So was it on CNN or not?
>This is one of the few
>occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the West and
>in the USA ... it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly
>changed the preception of the Israeli army's role in the mid-east.
>
>So there is proof for you!
What proof. You said above: "was it not reported..." and "someone please give
full details if they can remember". Hear say is not proof.
>It is obvious that is a systematic policy of the
>Israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes.
Yes, like the 700 or more Palestinians brutally murdered by their brothers.
>
>Nadeem
>
-----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Reply-To: bh437292@lance.colostate.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: parry.lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University
Lines: 95
In article <1993Apr15.224353.24945@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
|> 	Tell me, do these young men also attack Syrian troops?
In the South Lebanon area, only Israeli (and SLA) and Lebanese troops
are present.
Syrian troops are deployed north of the Awali river.  Between the
Awali river and the "Security Zone" only Lebanese troops are stationed.
|>
|> >with the blood of its soldiers.  If Israel is interested in peace,
|> >than it should withdraw from OUR land.
|>
|> 	There must be a guarantee of peace before this happens.  It
|> seems that many of these Lebanese youth are unable to restrain
|> themselves from violence, and unable to to realize that their actions
|> prolong Israels stay in South Lebanon.
That is your opinion and the opinion of the Israeli government.
I agree peace guarantees would be better for all, but I am addressing
the problem as it stands now.  Hopefully a comprehensive peace settlement
will be concluded soon, and will include security guarantees for
both sides.  My proposal was aimed at decreasing the casualties
in the interim period.  In my opinion, if Israel withdraws
unilaterally it would still be better off than staying.
The Israeli gov't obviously agrees with you and is not willing
to do such a move.  I hope to be be able to change your opinion
and theirs, that's why I post to tpm.
|> 	If the Lebanese army was able to maintain the peace, then
|> Israel would not have to be there.  Until it is, Israel prefers that
|> its soldiers die rather than its children.
As I explained, I contend that if Israel does withdraw unilaterally
I believe no attacks would ensue against northern Israel.  I also
explained why I believe that to be the case.  My suggestion
is aimed at reducing the level of tension and casualties on all sides.
It is unfortunate that Israel does not agree with my opinion.
|>
|> >If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw
|> >unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
|> >of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
|> >advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's
|> >public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations
|> >since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in
|> >peace and has already offered some important concessions.
|>
|> 	Israel should withdraw from Lebanon when a peace treaty is
|> signed.  Not a day before.  Withdraw because of casualties would tell
|> the Lebanese people that all they need to do to push Israel around is
|> kill a few soldiers.  Its not gonna happen.
That is too bad.
|> >Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
|> >be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not
|> >accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
|> >shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
|> >and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.
|>
|>
|> 	Why should Israel not demand this while holding the buffer
|> zone?  It seems to me that the better bargaining position is while
|> holding your neighbors land.
Because Israel is not occupying the "Security Zone" free of charge.
It is paying the price for that.  Once Israel withdraws it may have
lost a bargaining chip at the negociating table but it would save
some soldiers' lives, that is my contention.
If Lebanon were willing to agree to
|> those conditions, Israel would quite probably have left already.
|> Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that the Lebanese can disarm the
|> Hizbolah, and maintain the peace.
That is completely untrue.  Hizbollah is now a minor force in Lebanese
politics.  The real heavy weights are Syria's allies.  The gov't is
supported by Syria.  The Lebanese Army is over 30,000 troops and
unified like never before.  Hizbollah can have no moral justification
in attacking Israel proper, especially after Israeli withdrawal.
That would draw the ire of the Lebanese the Syrian and the
Israeli gov'ts.  If Israel does withdraw and such an act
(Hizbolllah attacking Israel) would be akin to political and moral
suicide.
Basil
|> Adam
|> Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
|>
|> "If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
|> wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: Re: Clinton's views on Jerusalem
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 23
bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin) writes:
>I recently read that during Bill Clinton's campaign, he stated
>that if elected he would immediately recognize Jerusalem as
>Israel's capital.  According to the article, Mr. Clinton
>reaffirmed this after winning the presidency.  However,
>during recent talks with President Mubarak, Secretary of
>State Christopher stated that "the status of Jerusalem
>will be a final matter of discussion between the parties".
>Now I don't want to start a big discussion over the status
>of Jerusalem.  All I want to know is if anyone can
>authenticate Mr. Clinton's statements with dates, places, etc.
From a recent interview in Middle East Insight magazine,
Clinton said that he supports moving the US Embassy to
Jerusalem, but would not do so at this time because it
would interrupt the peace talks.
--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!
"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
From: iacovou@gurney.cs.umn.edu (Neophytos Iacovou)
Subject: Re: WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THE SERBIAN-GREEK CONNECTION....
Nntp-Posting-Host: gurney.cs.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota
Lines: 26
In <1993Apr13.070905.26124@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) writes:
>First of all I have to reiterate that your terminology in describing
>the events of 1974 are extremely "misleading". Cyprus is NOT occupied
>by Turkish forces it was invited by Turkish Cypriots and "intervened"
Oh....I see...I didn't realize this...
I think that perhaps you should print flyers on this topic, and your
reasons for thinking the way you do. You should then distribute them
amongst the world's population. You see, I don't think there are many
people who are aware of this fact. Thank you for telling us the truth.
BTW: I would start by sending your flyers to each of the UN officials.
Also, after you have distributed your flyers you might consider
hiding. You see, I think that once more people read what you think
they will have to lock you up in a mental institute; and don't think
they will ever let you out.
It is a strange strange world you live in. I feel sorry for you.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neophytos Iacovou
University of Minnesota                     email:  iacovou@cs.umn.edu
Computer Science Department                         ...!rutgers!umn-cs!iacovou
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)
Reply-To: bh437292@lance.colostate.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: parry.lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University
Lines: 65
In article <1qmdtlINNkrc@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr15.204930.9517@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|> |>
|> |> In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> |> |> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> |> |> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> |> |> --
|> |> |> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
|> |> Mr. water-head,
|> |> i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
|> |> israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no
|> |> water is being used on the lebanese
|> |> side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
|> |> israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.
|>
|> Of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more
|> difficult.  You have not bothered to substantiate this in
|> any way.  Basil, do you know of any evidence that would support
|> this?
I agree with Shai,  there are many references to Israeli
plans on the Litani river but I have yet to find hard
evidence.  I had mentioned before that there is a report
commissioned by the UN to study the Litani river, it is
still in draft form.  The Israeli gov't also commissioned
a study on the river that was done by Dr. Ben Wolfe.
The Litani starts in the Bekaa valley in Lebanon,
flows Southward, then West across South Lebanon and
discharges into the Mediterranean near the city of Tyre.
There are other rivers such as the Hasbani and the Wazzani
that start in Lebanese territory than join the Jordan river.
The most mentioned plan was one that would divert water
from the Litani into these, then the water would flow
naturally into the Lac De Houle.  BUT there is no evidence
of any diversion structure (which would need to be at least
3 km long).  The area is mountainous, inaccessible and
occupied by Israel so I have not seen any independent
reports of the existence of any diversion structure there.
Another often mentioned diversion is through deep wells.
It is also rumored that Israe has 600 m wells
tapping into deep aquifers and drawing water on the
Israeli side of the border.  If such wells are indeed
under use they would be costly to operate
(high energy costs) and the Lebanese and Israeli gov't should
agree on the distribution of water from shared aquifers
as part of an overall peace plan and the bilateral
negociations on "regional issues".  The fact that we have
been at war all this time has led to the current state
of affairs where withdrawals from such aquifers is
completely unregulated.
Basil
|> |> Hasan
|>
|> --
|> Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
|> OS Software Engineer    |
|> Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
|> Cambridge, MA           |
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Reply-To: bh437292@lance.colostate.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: parry.lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University
Lines: 13
In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
[.....]
|> Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
|> selectively naive.
Oooh... now THAT hurts.  I will not suffer you through more naive
and one-sided views of mine.   Please skip my articles in the future
Oh Wise Tim, and have a good day.
Basil
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Reply-To: bh437292@lance.colostate.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: parry.lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University
Lines: 101
In article <SHAIG.93Apr15220200@composer.think.com>, shaig@composer.think.com (Shai Guday) writes:
|>    [snip]
|>    imagine ????  It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like
|>    to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
|>    in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
|>
|> I would not argue that all or even most of the villages are "terrorist
|> camps".  There are however some which come very close to serving that
|> purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way
|> prior to the invasion.
The village I described was actually the closest I could come to
describing mine.  I agree there may be other villages where the civilian
population has deserted because it is too close to Israeli lines and
thus gets bombed more often.  In such villages often the only remaining
inhabitants are guerillas and some elderly who have nowhere else to go.
But for the most part the typical South Lebanon village is more like
mine.  One where civilians and guerillas live together.  They are
often inhabiting the same house.  Many families are large, some
have members of the families involved in Hizollah, most others
are not.  That is what is so hard of South Lebanon, Israel is
not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines, but a guerilla
tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with
the local populace.  Not because they are evil cowards that
use women and children as shields, but because that is the only
way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army.
|> Some of the villages, and yours might well be among them, are as you
|> describe.  Not all are.  There are a large number of groups in the area,
|> backed by various organizations, with a wide range of purposes.  Hizbollah
|> and Amal were two of the larger ones and may still be.
Hizbollah and Amal are now the main two militias.  Though
Hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance
operation and better motivated by religious conviction.
As to retaliation,
|> while mistakes may be made, that is still a far cry from indiscriminate
|> bombing, which would have produced major casualties.
It may be a mixture of what we both say.  Sometimes Israel chooses
its targets carefully.  At other times it just sends its pilots on
sorties aimed at a town in general since it only knows that the
attackers came from that specific village but has no further
intelligence.  On several occasions Israel retalliated against
civilian refugee camps, even in North Lebanon, just to show
that it will not sit idly after its soldiers have been attacked.
Most of the time it directs the SLA to do the dirty work and
indiscriminately shell some Lebanese villages on the other side.
I have experienced this shelling myself on several occasions,
this is why the SLA militia is sometimes even more despised than
Israeli troops.
|
|> Well, here we disagree.  I think that Israel would willingly withdraw if
|> the Lebanese gov't was able to field a reliable force in the area to police
|> it and prevent further attacks.
I hope you are right on Israeli willingness to withdraw, but I still
contend that withdrawal would be the better course for Israel's
security, since it would reduce its  military losses, and I claim
that the Lebanese and Syrian gov'ts would be able to prevent any
further attacks on Northern Israel.
|>    There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
|>    goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such
|>    circumstances, and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
|>    capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
|>    in all other parts of Lebanon.
|>
|> No, the Syrian gov't is more than happy to have Israel sink into another
|> Lebanese morass.  I could elaborate if necessary.
Hmm...  Here we disagree on what serves Syria interests better.
I think Syria wants to have Lebanon all to itself.  It would
be willing to guarantee Northern Israel's security in return for
Israeli withdrawal.  I don't think Syria wants Israel to be
involved in its protectorate of Lebanon.  Syria is sitting at the
negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants
to get a political resolution.  A renewal of hostilities
along the Lebanese front could put the whole ME peace negotiations
back in question.
|>    I agree, only in the case of the Isareli soldiers their killing
|>    CANNOT be qualified as murder, no matter what you say.
|>
|> No, but it is regretable, as is the whole situation.
I agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable.
|> --
|> Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
|> OS Software Engineer    |
|> Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
|> Cambridge, MA           |
Basil
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Suicide Bomber Attack in the Territories
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Lines: 22
Attention Israel Line Recipients
Friday, April 16, 1993
Two Arabs Killed and Eight IDF Soldiers Wounded in West Bank Car
Bomb Explosion
Israel Defense Forces Radio, GALEI ZAHAL, reports today that a car
bomb explosion in the West Bank today killed two Palestinians and
wounded eight IDF soldiers. The blast is believed to be the work of
a suicide bomber. Radio reports said a car packed with butane gas
exploded between two parked buses, one belonging to the IDF and the
other civilian. Both busses went up in flames. The blast killed an
Arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the Mehola settlement.
An Israel Radio report stated that the other man who was killed may
have been the one who set off the bomb. According to officials at
the Haemek Hospital in Afula, the eight IDF soldiers injured in the
blast suffered light to moderate injuries.
-Danny Keren
From: horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron
Lines: 40
In today's Israeline posting, at the end (an afterthought?), I read:
> More Money Allocated to Building Infrastructure in Territories to
> Create Jobs for Palestinians
>
> KOL YISRAEL reports that public works geared at building
> infrastructure costing 140 million New Israeli Shekels (about 50
> million dollars) will begin Sunday in the Territories. This was
> announced last night by Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Finance
> Minister Avraham Shohat in an effort to create more jobs for
> Palestinian residents of the Territories. This infusion of money
> will bring allocations given to developing infrastructure in the
> Territories this year to 450 million NIS, up from last year's
> figure of 120 million NIS.
While I applaud investing of money in Yehuda, Shomron, v'Chevel-Azza,
in order to create jobs for their residents, I find it deplorable that
this has never been an active policy of any Israeli administration
since 1967, *with regard to their Jewish residents*. Past governments
found funds to subsidize cheap (read: affordable) housing and the
requisite infrastructure, but where was the investment for creating
industry (which would have generated income *and* jobs)?
After 26 years, Yehuda and Shomron remain barren, bereft of even
middle-sized industries, and the Jewish settlements are sterile
"bedroom communities", havens for (in the main) Israelis (both
secular *and* religious) who work in Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem but
cannot afford to live in either city or their surrounding suburbs.
There's an old saying: "bli giboosh, ayn kivoosh" -- just living there
wasn't enough, we had to *really* settle it. But instead, we "settled"
for Potemkin villages, and now we are paying the price (and doing
for others what we should have done for ourselves).
--
Yonatan B. Horen | Jews who do not base their advocacy of Jewish positions and
(408) 736-3923   | interests on Judaism are essentially racists... the only
horen@netcom.com | morally defensible grounds for the preservation of Jews as a
| separate people rest on their religious identity as Jews.
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freeman, with blood greetings from Israel
Nntp-Posting-Host: supergas
Reply-To: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Lines: 31
In article <1qev18INNnk7@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.142902.14479@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
>|> As for israelis, Menahim Begal Begin and Yitzhak Shakh Shamir were leaders
>                            ^^^^^                   ^^^^^
>Cute, real cute.  Now can you please stop being childish and get on
>with the issues?
>
>|> of many of these gangs that massacred Palestineans and became the
>|> HEROS of israel and its Prime ministers. Oh sorry I forgot Ben Gurion,
>|> too. I hope he is enjoying his coffin . Now, if israelis donot support
>|> (which i doubt) the oppression and killing from 1930's-now,
You probably mean the mass murders of Jews in the West Bank between 1936-1939.
>|> Hasan
>Shai Guday
Naftaly
----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Car bomb in the West Bank
Nntp-Posting-Host: supergas
Reply-To: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Lines: 34
From Israeline 4/16
Two Arabs Killed and Eight IDF Soldiers Wounded in West Bank Car
Bomb Explosion
Israel Defense Forces Radio, GALEI ZAHAL, reports today that a car
bomb explosion in the West Bank today killed two Palestinians and
wounded eight IDF soldiers. The blast is believed to be the work of
a suicide bomber. Radio reports said a car packed with butane gas
exploded between two parked buses, one belonging to the IDF and the
other civilian. Both busses went up in flames. The blast killed an
Arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the Mehola settlement.
An Israel Radio report stated that the other man who was killed may
have been the one who set off the bomb. According to officials at
the Haemek Hospital in Afula, the eight IDF soldiers injured in the
blast suffered light to moderate injuries.
The Arab that was killed was a probably from the Mossad so it is not count
as a murder.
Naftaly
-----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 80
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: composer.think.com
In article <Apr16.190846.63631@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan) writes:
|> In article <SHAIG.93Apr15220200@composer.think.com>, shaig@composer.think.com (Shai Guday) writes:
|>
|> That is what is so hard of South Lebanon, Israel is
|> not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines, but a guerilla
|> tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with
|> the local populace.  Not because they are evil cowards that
|> use women and children as shields, but because that is the only
|> way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army.
While that is currently true from their perspective, it is also
worthwhile to note that in such cases the populace often does suffer
from attempts to control the guerillas.  Furthermore, there were
cases in the past of Palestinian gun emplacements being situated
within villages.  The argument that can be made for small arms
fire can not be made for field pieces.
|> Hizbollah and Amal are now the main two militias.  Though
|> Hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance
|> operation and better motivated by religious conviction.
As I recall, Amal was primarily nationalistically "Lebanon for
the Lebanese" motivated.  I think that the difference between them
was also a matter of funding and support.  One question does
come to mind however,
Given that you claim the Hizbollah to be more committed etc... and
that their stated position is:
1.  No peace talks.
2.  No peace talks.
.
.
.
.
N-1. No peace talks.
N.  No Israel
if we assume that Lebanon and Syria are sincere in their desire for
peace, why hasn't the Hizbollah been disarmed?
|> I hope you are right on Israeli willingness to withdraw, but I still
|> contend that withdrawal would be the better course for Israel's
|> security, since it would reduce its  military losses, and I claim
|> that the Lebanese and Syrian gov'ts would be able to prevent any
|> further attacks on Northern Israel.
Bearing in mind the above and that military losses are more palatable
than civilian ones, I am sure you can understand why Israel is slow
to act in that manner.
|> |> No, the Syrian gov't is more than happy to have Israel sink into another
|> |> Lebanese morass.  I could elaborate if necessary.
|>
|> Hmm...  Here we disagree on what serves Syria interests better.
|> I think Syria wants to have Lebanon all to itself.  It would
|> be willing to guarantee Northern Israel's security in return for
|> Israeli withdrawal.  I don't think Syria wants Israel to be
|> involved in its protectorate of Lebanon.  Syria is sitting at the
|> negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants
|> to get a political resolution.  A renewal of hostilities
|> along the Lebanese front could put the whole ME peace negotiations
|> back in question.
I agree that Syria wants Lebanon to be part of its greater Syria.
I don't necessarily see that the Syrians would be unhappy to see
Israel up to its neck in another Lebanese morass afterwhich Syria
could continue on its merry schedule when Israeli public opinion
would lead to a second pullout.
|> I agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable.
<*sigh*>
Why can't some gov'ts negotiate as easily as some people?
--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Rights Violations in Azerbaijan #013
Summary: Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 339
Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #013
Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                     |
| I said that on February 27, when those people were streaming down   |
| our street, they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" and "Glory to   |
| Turkey!" And during the trial I said to that Ismailov, "What does   |
| that mean, 'Glory to Turkey'?" I still don't understand what Turkey |
| has to do with this, we live in the Soviet Union. That Turkey told  |
| you to or is going to help you kill Armenians? I still don't        |
| understand why "Glory to Turkey!" I asked that question twice and   |
| got no answer . . . No one answered me . . .                        |
|                                                                     |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
DEPOSITION OF EMMA SETRAKOVNA SARGISIAN
Born 1933
Cook
Sumgait Emergency Hospital
Resident at Building 16/13, Apartment 14
Block 5
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]
To this day I can't understand why my husband, an older man, was killed. What
was he killed for. He hadn't hurt anyone, hadn't said any word he oughtn't
have. Why did they kill him? I want to find out--from here, from there, from
the government--why my husband was killed.
On the 27th, when I returned from work--it was a Saturday--my son was at home.
He doesn't work. I went straight to the kitchen, and he called me, "Mamma, is
there a soccer game?" There were shouts from Lenin Street. That's where we
lived. I say, "I don't know, Igor, I haven't turned on the TV." He looked
again and said, "Mamma, what's going on in the courtyard?!" I look and see so
many people, it's awful, marching, marching, there are hundreds, thousands,
you can't even tell how many there are. They're shouting, "Down with the
Armenians! Kill the Armenians! Tear the Armenians to pieces!" My God, why is
that happening, what for? I had known nothing at that point. We lived together
well, in friendship, and suddenly something like this. It was completely
unexpected. And they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" And they had flags,
and they were shouting. There was a man walking in front well dressed, he's
around 40 or 45, in a gray raincoat. He is walking and saying something, I
can't make it out through the vent window. He is walking and saying something,
and the children behind him are shouting, "Tear the Armenians to pieces!" and
"Down with the Armenians!" They shout it again, and then shout, "Hurrah!" The
people streamed without end, they were walking in groups, and in the groups I
saw that there were women, too. I say, "My God, there are women there too!"
And my son says, "Those aren't women, Mamma, those are bad women." Well we
didn't look a long time. They were walking and shouting and I was afraid, I
simply couldn't sit still. I went out onto the balcony, and my Azerbaijani
neighbor is on the other balcony, and I say, "Khalida, what's going on, what
happened?" She says, "Emma, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what
happened." Well she was quite frightened too. They had these white sticks,
each second or third one had a white rod. They're waving the rods above their
heads as they walk, and the one who's out front, like a leader, he has a white
stick too. Well maybe it was an armature shaft, but what I saw was white, I
don't know.
My husband got home 10 or 15 minutes later. He comes home and I say, "Oh
dear, I'm frightened, they're going to kill us I bet." And he says, "What are
you afraid of, they're just children." I say, "Everything that happens comes
from children." There had been 15- and 16-year kids from the Technical and
Vocational School. "Don't fear," he said, "it's nothing, nothing all that
bad." He didn't eat, he just lay on the sofa. And just then on television they
broadcast that two Azerbaijanis had been killed in Karabakh, near Askeran.
When I heard that I couldn't settle down at all, I kept walking here and
there and I said, "They're going to kill us, the Azerbaijanis are going to
kill us." And he says, "Don't be afraid." Then we heard--from the central
square, there are women shouting near near the stage, well, they're shouting
different things, and you couldn't hear every well. I say, "You speak
Azerbaijani well, listen to what they're saying." He says "Close the window
and go to bed, there s nothing happening there." He listened a bit and then
closed the window and went to bed, and told us, "Come on, go to sleep, it's
nothing." Sleep, what did he mean sleep?  My Son and I stood at the window
until two in the morning watching. Well he's sick, and all of this was
affecting him. I say, "Igor, you go to bed, I'm going to go to bed in a minute
too." He went and I sat at the window until three, and then went to bed.
Things had calmed down slightly.
The 28th, Sunday, was my day off. My husband got up and said, "Come on, Emma,
get up." I say, "Today's my day off, let me rest." He says, "Aren't you going
to make me some tea?" Well I felt startled and got up, and said, "Where are
you going?" He says, "I'm going out, I have to." I say, "Can you really go
outside on a day like today? Don't go out, for God's sake. You never listen to
me, I know, and you're not going to listen to me now, but at least don't take
the car out of the garage, go without the car." And he says, "Come on, close
the door!" And then on the staircase he muttered something, I couldn't make it
out, he probably said "coward" or something.
I closed the door and he left. And I started cleaning . . . picking things up
around the house . . . Everything seemed quiet until one o'clock in the after-
noon, but at the bus station, my neighbor told me, cars were burning. I said,
"Khalida, was it our car?" She says, "No, no, Emma, don't be afraid, they
were government cars and Zhigulis.'' Our car is a GAZ-21 Volga. And I waited,
it was four o'clock, five o'clock . . . and when he wasn't home at seven I
said, "Oh, they've killed Shagen!"
Tires are burning in town, there's black smoke in town, and I'm afraid, I'm
standing on the balcony and I'm all . . . my whole body is shaking. My God,
they've probably killed him! So basically I waited like that until ten
o'clock and he still hadn't come home. And I'm afraid to go out. At ten
o'clock I look out: across from our building is a building with a bookstore,
and from upstairs, from the second floor, everything is being thrown outside.
I'm looking out of one window and Igor is looking out of the other, and I
don't want him to see this, and he, as it turns out, doesn't want me to see
it. We wanted to hide it from one another. I joined him. "Mamma," he says,
"look what they're doing over there!" They were burning everything, and there
were police standing there, 10 or 15 of them, maybe twenty policemen standing
on the side, and the crowd is on the other side, and two or three people are
throwing everything down from the balcony. And one of the ones on the balcony
is shouting, "What are you standing there for, burn it!" When they threw the
television, wow, it was like a bomb! Our neighbor on the third floor came out
on her balcony and shouted, "Why are you doing that, why are you burning those
things, those people saved with such difficulty to buy those things for their
home. Why are you burning them?" And from the courtyard they yell at her, "Go
inside, go inside! Instead why don't you tell us if they are any of them in
your building or not?" They meant Armenians, but they didn't say Armenians,
they said, "of them." She says, "No, no, no, none!" Then she ran downstairs to
our place, and says, "Emma, Emma, you have to leave!" I say, "They've killed
Shagen anyway, what do we have to live for? It won't be living for me without
Shagen. Let them kill us, too!" She insists, saying, "Emma, get out of here,
go to Khalida's, and give me the key. When they come I'll say that it's my
daughter's apartment, that they're off visiting someone." I gave her the key
and went to the neighbor's, but I couldn't endure it. I say, "Igor, you stay
here, I'm going to go downstairs, and see, maybe Papa's . . . Papa's there."
Meanwhile, they were killing the two brothers, Alik and Valery [Albert and
Valery Avanesians; see the accounts of Rima Avanesian and Alvina Baluian], in
the courtyard. There is a crowd near the building, they're shouting, howling,
and I didn't think that they were killing at the time. Alik and Valery lived
in the corner house across from ours. When I went out into the courtyard I saw
an Azerbaijani, our neighbor, a young man about 30 years old. I say, "Madar,
Uncle Shagen's gone, let's go see, maybe he's dead in the garage or near the
garage, let's at least bring the corpse into the house. "He shouts, "Aunt
Emma, where do you think you're going?! Go back into the house, I'll look for
him." I say, "Something will happen to you, too, because of me, no, Madar,
I'm coming too." Well he wouldn't let me go all the same, he says, "You stay
here with us, I'm go look." He went and looked, and came back and said, "Aunt
Emma, there's no one there, the garage is closed. "Madar went off again and
then returned and said, "Aunt Emma, they're already killed Alik, and Valery's
there . . . wheezing."
Madar wanted to go up to him, but those scoundrels said, "Don't go near him,
or we'll put you next to him." He got scared--he's young--and came back and
said, "I'm going to go call, maybe an ambulance will come, at least to take
Alik, maybe he'll live . . . " They grew up together in our courtyard, they
knew each other well, they had always been on good terms. He went to call, but
not a single telephone worked, they had all been shut off. He called, and
called, and called, and called--nothing.
I went upstairs to the neighbor's. Igor says, "Two police cars drove up over
there, their headlights are on, but they're not touching them, they are still
lying where they were, they're still lying there . . . "We watched out the
window until four o'clock, and then went downstairs to our apartment. I didn't
take my clothes off. I lay on the couch so as not to go to bed, and at six
o'clock in the morning I got up and said, "Igor, you stay here at home, don't
go out, don't go anywhere, I'm going to look, I have to find Papa, dead or
alive . . . let me go . . . I've got the keys from work."
At six o'clock I went to the Emergency Hospital. The head doctor and another
doctor opened the door to the morgue. I run up to them and say, "Doctor, is
Shagen there?" He says, "What do you mean? Why should Shagen be here?!" I
wanted to go in, but he wouldn't let me. There were only four people in there,
they said. Well, they must have been awful because they didn't let me in. They
said, "Shagen's not here, he's alive somewhere, he'll come back."
It's already seven o'clock in the morning. I look and there is a panel truck
with three policemen. Some of our people from the hospital were there with
them. I say, "Sara Baji ["Sister" Sara, term of endearment], go look, they've
probably brought Shagen." I said it, shouted it, and she went and came back
and says, "No, Emma, he has tan shoes on, it's a younger person." Now Shagen
just happened to have tan shoes, light tan, they were already old. When they
said it like that I guessed immediately. I went and said, "Doctor, they've
brought Shagen in dead." He says, "Why are you carrying on like that, dead,
dead . . . he's alive." But then he went all the same, and when he came back
the look on his face was . . . I could tell immediately that he was dead. They
knew one another well, Shagen had worked for him a long time. I say, "Doctor,
is it Shagen?" He says, "No, Emma, it's not he, it's somebody else entirely."
I say, "Doctor, why are you deceiving me, I'll find out all the same anyway,
if not today, then tomorrow." And he said . . . I screamed, right there in the
office. He says, "Emma, go, go calm down a little." Another one of our
colleagues said that the doctor had said it was Shagen, but . . . in hideous
condition. They tried to calm me down, saying it wasn't Shagen. A few minutes
later another colleague comes in and says, "Oh, poor Emma!" When she said it
like that there was no hope left.
That day was awful. They were endlessly bringing in dead and injured
people.
At night someone took me home. I said, "Igor, Papa's been killed."
On the morning of the 1st I left Igor at home again and went to the hospital:
I had to bury him somehow, do something. I look and see that the hospital is
surrounded by soldiers. They are wearing dark clothes. "Hey, citizen, where
are you going?" I say, "I work here," and from inside someone shouts, "Yes,
yes, that's our cook, let her in." I went right to the head doctor's office
and there is a person from the City Health Department there, he used to
work with us at the hospital. He says, "Emma, Shagen's been taken to Baku.
In the night they took the wounded and the dead, all of them, to Baku." I
say, "Doctor, how will I bury him?" He says, "We're taking care of all that,
don't you worry, we'll do everything, we'll tell you about it. Where did you
spend the night?" I say, "I was at home." He says, "What do you mean you
were at home?! You were at home alone?" I say, "No, Igor was there too." He
says, "You can't stay home, we're getting an ambulance right now, wait just
one second, the head doctor is coming, we're arranging an ambulance right
now, you put on a lab coat and take one for Igor, you go and bring Igor here
like a patient, and you'll stay here and we'll se~ later what to do next ..."
His last name is Kagramanov. The head doctor's name is Izyat Jamalogli
Sadukhov.
The "ambulance" arrived and I went home and got Igor. They admitted him as a
patient, they gave us a private room, an isolation room. We stayed in the
hospital until the 4th.
Some police car came and they said, "Emma, let's go." And the women, our
colleagues, then they saw the police car, became anxious and said, "Where are
you taking her?" I say, "They're going to kill me, too . . . " And the
investigator says, "Why are you saying that, we're going to make a positive
identification." We went to Baku and they took me into the morgue . . . I
still can't remember what hospital it was . . . The investigator says, "Let's
go, we need to be certain, maybe it's not Shagen." And when I saw the caskets,
lying on top of one another, I went out of my mind. I say, "I can't look, no."
The investigator says, "Are there any identifying marks?" I say, "Let me see
the clothes, or the shoes, or even a sock, I'll recognize them." He says,
"Isn't they're anything on his body?" I say he has seven gold teeth and his
finger, he only has half of one of his fingers. Shagen was a carpenter, he had
been injured at work . . .
They brought one of the sleeves of the shirt and sweater he was wearing, they
brought them and they were all burned . . . When I saw them I shouted, "Oh,
they burned him!" I shouted, I don't know, I fell down . . . or maybe I sat
down, I don't remember. And that investigator says, "Well fine, fine, since
we've identified that these are his clothes, and since his teeth . . . since
he has seven gold teeth . . . "
On the 4th they told me: "Emma, it's time to bury Shagen now." I cried, "How,
how can I bury Shagen when I have only one son and he's sick? I should inform
his relatives, he has three sisters, I can't do it by myself." They say, "OK,
you know the situation. How will they get here from Karabagh? How will they
get here from Yerevan? There's no transportation, it s impossible."
He was killed on February 28, and I buried him on March 7. We buried him in
Sumgait. They asked me, "Where do you want to bury him?" I said, "I want to
bury him in Karabagh, where we were born, let me bury him in Karabagh," I'm
shouting, and the head of the burial office, I guess, says, "Do you know what
it means, take him to Karabagh?! It means arson!" I say, "What do you mean,
arson? Don't they know what's going on in Karabagh? The whole world knows that
they killed them, and I want to take him to Karabagh, I don't have anyone
anymore." I begged, I pleaded, I grieved, I even got down on my knees. He
says, "Let's bury him here now, and in three months, in six months, a year,
if it calms down, I'll help you move him to Karabagh . . . "
Our trial was the first in Sumgait. It was concluded on May 16. At the
investigation the murderer, Tale Ismailov, told how it all happened, but then
at the trial he . . . tried to wriggle . . . he tried to soften his crime.
Then they brought a videotape recorder, I guess, and played it, and said,
"Ismailov, look, is that you?" He says, "Yes." "Well look, here you're
describing everything as it was on the scene of the crime, right?" He says,
"Yes." "And now you're telling it differently?" He says, "Well maybe I
forgot!" Like that.
The witnesses and that criminal creep himself said that when the car was going
along Mir Street, there was a crowd of about 80 people . . . Shagen had a
Volga GAZ-21. The 80 people surrounded his car, and all 80 of them were
involved. One of them was this Ismailov guy, this Tale. They--it's unclear
who--started pulling Shagen out of the car. Well, one says from the left side
of the car, another says from the right side. They pulled off his sports
jacket. He had a jacket on. Well they ask him, "What's your nationality?" He
says, "Armenian." Well they say from the crowd they shouted, "If he's an
Armenian, kill him, kill him!" They started beating him, they broke seven of
his ribs, and his heart . . . I don't know, they did something there, too
. . . it's too awful to tell about. Anyway, they say this Tale guy . . . he
had an armature shaft. He says, "I picked it up, it was lying near a bush,
that's where I got it." He said he picked it up, but the witnesses say that he
had already had it. He said, "I hit him twice," he said, " . . . once or twice
on the head with that rod." And he said that when he started to beat him
Shagen was sitting on the ground, and when he hit him he fell over. He said,
"I left, right nearby they were burning things or something in an apartment,
killing someone," he says, "and I came back to look, is that Shagen alive or
not?" I said, "You wanted to finish him, right, and if he was still alive, you
came back to hit him again?" He went back and looked and he was already dead.
"After that," that bastard Tale said, "after that I went home."
I said, "You . . . you . . . little snake," I said, "Are you a thief and a
murderer?" Shagen had had money in his jacket, and a watch on his wrist. They
were taken. He says he didn't take them
When they overturned and burned the car, that Tale was no longer there, it was
other people who did that. Who it was, who turned over the car and who burned
it, that hasn't been clarified as yet. I told the investigator, "How can you
have the trial when you don't know who burned the car?" He said something, but
I didn't get what he was saying. But I said, "You still haven't straightened
everything out, I think that's unjust."
When they burned the car he was lying next to it, and the fire spread to him.
In the death certificate it says that he had third-degree burns over 80
percent of his body . . .
And I ask again, why was he killed? My husband was a carpenter; he was a good
craftsman, he knew how to do everything, he even fixed his own car, with his
own hands. We have three children. Three sons. Only Igor was with me at the
time. The older one was in Pyatigorsk, and the younger one is serving in the
Army. And now they're fatherless...
I couldn't sit all the way through it. When the Procurator read up to 15
years' deprivation of freedom, I just . . . I went out of my mind, I didn't
know what to do with myself, I said, "How can that be? You," I said, "you are
saying that it was intentional murder and the sentence is 15 years'
deprivation of freedom?" I screamed, I had my mind! I said, "Let me at that
creep, with my bare hands I'll . . . " A relative restrained me, and there
were all those military people there . . . I lest. I said," This isn't a
Soviet trial, this is unjust!" That's what I shouted, l said it and left . . .
I said that on February 27, when those people were streaming down our street,
they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" and "Glory to Turkey!" And during the
trial I said to that Ismailov, "What does that mean, 'Glory to Turkey'?" I
still don't understand what Turkey has to do with this, we live in the Soviet
Union. That Turkey told you to or is going to help you kill Armenians? I still
don't understand why "Glory to Turkey!" I asked that question twice and got no
answer . . . No one answered me . . .
May 19, 1988
Yerevan
- - - reference - - -
[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 178-184
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: AS.VXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Vic Filler)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin
Organization: Stanford University
Lines: 56
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu
In article <1993Apr19.204243.19392@cs.rit.edu>,
bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay) writes:
>
>I have previously posted quotations by Irgun participants that
>totally destroys Begin's whitewash.  I have no particular desire
>to post it yet again.
>
>Brendan.
>(normally bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)
You apparently think you are some sort of one-man judge and jury who
can declare "total" victory and then sit back and enjoy the
applause.  But you've picked the wrong topic if you think a few
rigged "quotations" can sustain the legend and lie of the Deir
Yassin "massacre."
You have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology.
At the most basic level, you should know that there is a big
difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding
"quotations" that support your preset opinions.
If you have studied the history of Israel at all you must know that
many of the sources of your "quotations" have an axe to grind, and
therefore you must be very careful about whom you "quote."  For
example, Meir Pa'il, whom you cite, was indeed a general, a scholar,
and a war hero.  But that doesn't mean everything that comes out of
his mouth is gold.  In fact (and here your lack of experience
shows), Pa'il is such a fanatic, embittered leftist that much of his
anti-Israel blathering (forget about anti-Irgun blathering) would be
considered something like treason in non-Israel contexts.  But of
course you don't consider this AT ALL when you find a juicy
"quotation" that you can use to attack Israel.
Benny Morris (of Hashomer Hatzair) represents himself as a "scholar"
when he rehashes the old attacks on the Irgun.  Don't be fooled.
It's just the old Zionist ideological catfight, surfacing as an
attack on the (then-) Likud government.  If you will look closely at
the section on Deir Yassin in his book on the War of Independence,
you will see his "indictment" to be pure hot air.  And this is the
BEST HE CAN DO after decades of digging for any sort of damning
evidence.  Unfortunately for him, because his book parades itself as
"scholarly," he is forced to put footnotes.  So you can clearly see
that his Deir Yassin account is based on nothing.
The Deir Yassin "massacre" never took place as the propagandists
tell it, any more than the Sabra and Shatila "massacres." Do you get
the feeling people like to blame the Jews for "massacres," even if
they have to make them up?  It must sound spicy.  Even some Jews
like to do it, for reasons of their own.
Please, don't confuse any of you Deir Yassin "massacre" stuff
with facts or scholarship.  You should stick to Begin's version
unless you find something serious to contradict it.
Vic
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 16
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu
tsiel writes:
>If indeed Israeli soldiers killed a "Hamas Mujahid" with an anti-tank missile
>then I'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not have been able
>to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile.
maybe the missile didn't hit directly such that his body
gets "desintegrated."  of course, destroying 10 houses to
kill someone is not a surgical operation, or is it?
--
___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
(______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 20
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu
m.z.magil writes:
>It surprises me that this "story" has not yet made it to
>the front pages of the major newspapers (which love to make the State of
>Israel look as evil as humanly possible)!  Such a story would be "eaten up"
>by some of the papers over here.  So please explain to me why I have never
>seen nor heard of it before!  - Believe me, I'm not expecting a reply because
>we both know where the story came from... YOUR DREAMS!!!!
i would like to remind my jewish colleague mzm that much of the
stories of the holocaust (including the ones in the u.s. holocaust
memorial museum) were *not* eaten up by some of the papers.
we just have to wait to build muesums for it..
--
___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
(______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo
From: ucer@ee.rochester.edu (Kamil B. Ucer)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Organization: University of Rochester Department of Electrical Engineering
In article <1993Apr23.002811.22496@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 2120788@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>I've heard many Turks say this and it surpises me that they don't read about
>it.Remember the Treaty of Sevres-as a consequence of being in the Axis powers
>in WWI.The Turks UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW were supposed to look after their
>minorities ie. Greeks,Armenians,Kurds(I must say Turk-Kurd relations are
>improving slightly with time) and not pose a threat to Turkey's neighbours.
>The Turks blatantly rejected this treaty(the Germans grudgingly accepted
>Versailles which was a million times worse for the health and pride of the
>German people).The Greeks who had an army there,were there with BRITISH
>and FRENCH backing to enforce Sevres.
>    In possibly the first example of appeasement the Young Turk government
>managed screwed the Treaty of Laussane out of the weak allies,this was after
>the Greek forces were were destroyed at Smyrna.When this occurred incidently,
>FRENCH warships were in the harbour and many Greeks trying escape swam to the
>FRENCH warships and climbed aboard only to get their arms cut off by the FRENCH
>as they clawed they're way up the sides of the ships.
>Libertae,egalitae,fraternatae.
It seems to me that you are the one who is supposed to do some reading. I think
that our major difference in opinion is on the legitimacy of Sevres. First, thattreaty was signed by the Ottoman Empire therefore legally it does not bind the
Republic of Turkey. The new independence movement (which by the way, is not the same as the Young Turks) naturally rejected it out of hand. to say that we
should accept because the Germans did theirs is absurd. We saw what the cosequences of such harsh treaties were in Hitler. Second, the Sevres treaty was even
worse than Versailles. It divided the Ottoman Empire in to several influence
zones, had the capital occupied, the economy under Allied control, the army di
minished to nothing but a police force, in short a country in name only. I'd
wonder if you would like to live under such conditions. And for the record, I donot feel sorry for the soldiers killed in IZMIR harbour. Before evacuating the
city, the Greek forces burned it down, so it serves them right.
As for being fooled by Allied promises, that too is your fault. You did not come to Anatolia just to enforce Sevres but to take part in the plunder  as well.
K. Burak Ucer
-
From: gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a KAAN,TIMUCIN)
Subject: Re: Lezgians Astir in Azerbaijan and Daghestan
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Lines: 16
HELLO, shit face david, I see that you are still around. I dont want to
see your shitty writings posted here man. I told you. You are getting
itchy as your fucking country. Hey , and dont give me that freedom
of speach bullshit once more. Because your freedom has ended when you started
writing things about my people. And try to translate this "ebenin donu
butti kafa David.".
BYE, ANACIM HADE.
TIMUCIN
--
KAAN,TIMUCIN
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1091a
Internet: gt1091a@prism.gatech.edu
From: aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Aurag Hassan)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin
Organization: Universite de Montreal
Lines: 25
Are you trying to say that there were no massacres in Deir Yassin
or in Sabra and Shatila? If so then let me tell you some good jokes:
There is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in WWII
Palestinians just did what Davidians did for fourty years and more.
In fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place.
People die that is all. No one gets killed.
Maybe also vietamiese didn't die in Vietnam war killed by american
napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that's all.
Maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there.they
may be thought it was like snifing cocaine. No?
What do you think of this ? Isn't it stupid to say so?
Well it is as stupid as what you said .Next time you want to lie do it
intelligently.
Sincerely yours.
Hassan
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: Brendan McKay Clarifies the Nazi Racial Theory
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.
Lines: 59
Only Brendan McKay, or maybe ARF, would come to the rescue of Nazi
racial theory.  Is it distressing Brendan?  The point is that any
eugenic solution to the Jewish Problem as Elias has proposed smacks
of pure Nazism.  The fact that Elias' proposal cast the entire "problem"
as one of the abnormal presence of Israeli society in the Middle East,
and that he buried a slam against U.S. aid to Israel in the midst of
his "even-handed" solution of the Jewish Question, made it obvious what
he had in mind: disolving the Jewish polity.  That *is* a Nazi doctrine:
rectification of the "abnormal presence" of the Jewish people within a
larger body politic.  Whether your "solution" involves gas, monetary
incentives to the poor Jews to marry out, or as Feisal Husseini has
said, "disolve the Zionist entity by forcing it to engage the normal
surrounding Arab culture," you are engaged in a Nazi project.
Just as obvious is your statement: "I will not comment on the value
or lack of value of Elias's proposal."  Still striking the glancing
blow, right Brendan?  You could easily see where he was going, but you
"will not comment."  So, you are complicitous.
What is your fascination with Nazi racial theory, anyway?
-- Chris Metcalfe ("someone else")
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In article <1993Apr22.175022.15543@cs.rit.edu> bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay) writes:
>>>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>>>---------------------------------------------------------- by
>>>			  Elias Davidsson
>>>
>>>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>>>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>>>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>>>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>>>truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>>>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
>>
>>    Sounds just like a racial theory that Hitler outlined in Mein Kampf.
>
>Someone else said something similar.  I will not comment on the
>value or lack of value of Elias's "proposal".  I just want to say
>that it is very distressing that at least two people here are
>profoundly ignorant of Nazi racial doctrine.  They were NOT
>like Elias's idea, they were more like the opposite.
>
>Nazis believed in racial purity, not racial assimilation.  An
>instructive example is the Nazi attitude to Gypsies.  According to
>Nazi theoreticians, Gypsies were an Aryan race.  They were persecuted,
>and in huge numbers murdered, because most European Gypies were
>considered not pure Gypsies but "mongrels" formed from the pure Gypsy
>race and other undesirable races.  This was the key difference between
>the theoretical approach to Jews and Gypsies, by the way.  It is also
>true that towards the end of WWII even the "purist" Gypsies were
>hunted down as the theory was forgotten.
>
>Brendan.
>(email:  bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Legality of the jewish purchase
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Lines: 7
While one may question the motives of the Arabs who sold land to Jews,
often while publicly criticizing the sale of land to Jews, it was the
Jews and not the Arabs who were taken advantage of, as the prices the
Jews paid for barren land was many times the price fertile land was
being sold for in the United States at the same time.
--
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Anti-Zionism is Racism
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Lines: 14
B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
>Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
>the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
>(the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
>saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
>Steve
Just felt it was important to add four letters that Steve left out of
his Subject: header.
--
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 59
In article <93106.082650FINAID5@auvm.american.edu> <FINAID5@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>Message-ID: <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu> Mr.Napoleon responds:
>
>** There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor
>**until 1923 Someone had to protect them. If not us who??
>
>
>Is that so? or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman
>empire to grab some land. As soon as you got green lights from
>allied forces, you occupied Izmir and other cities in western
>Turkey. You killed and  raped millions people without any reason.
>Of course, you paid the price. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk made
>you swim in aegean sea but not far enough. Your aggressions thru
>Turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall
>not get you anywhere.
Don't swallow propaganda as truth Sir. British promised to Venizelos
(greek PM) that mainly greek populated areas of the Ottomans will be
given to Greece, _if_ he will agree to drag Greece in the side of
the British during the WWI (because the greek King was proGerman).
The British succeeded by bombarding Athens (1916), killing quite a few,
forcing abdication of the King, division of Greece into two separate
states (North-South), and finally laying the ground for the most disasterous
division between greeks for our century.(So don't feel bitter that the
"Allies" gave any green light because they liked us....)
Anyway, the British succeed to establish Venizelos, war starts at a second
front against the Germans in the south while they were fighting the war
in the East against the Russians, and finally the WWII came in an end.
After that the British (and French) forgot immediately their promises
(as usually). Even though publicly they say that they support the Greek
cause, practically they not only do nothing, but instead, using some usual
"reasoning" and other crap rhetoric as a pretext, they gradually
backup Kemal (who had given now to the British "water and bread" that
he will dissolve the superethnic Ottoman and contract it into a small
ethnic-state). The main drive behind this British switch was the plan
to keep a Muslim state in the region as buffer against a Russian expansion
into warm-water facilities. The "greek empire" being an Orthodox Christian
state was too prone to become Russian client.
Out of this intrigue, the current state of affairs was established on our
lands. While Venizelos and Kemal were promoted as true "Giants" by the
British, since they worked to realize their goals in the region.
Under the same plan, currently Greece and Turkey are recipients of big
military funds from the US; both they are functioning as anti-Russian
buffers, while simultaneously both remain good clients of State Dept. because
otherwise the use of terror of changing "the balance of power in the Aegean"
will be used.
Under the same exact rational you should see the Cyprus problem.
Gr
PS: I don't make any anti-...whatever rhetoric. This is the situation
in our region and needs to be said. The previously mentioned powers
are not anything special; they are fucntioning the same way which
anyone else functions all throughout history. So I don't selectively
single them out; just they are relevant to _our_ current afairs.
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 85
04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
By David Ljunggren
MOSCOW, April 16, Reuter - Armenia accused Turkey on Friday of flying weapons
x and troops across Armenian airspace to Azerbaijan and strongly hinted it
might try to shoot the planes down, local journalists in Yerevan said.
Separately, Itar-Tass news agency said Armenian forces had halted their latest
offensive which has swallowed up one-tenth of Azerbaijan and sent tensions in
the Transcaucasian region soaring.
The journalists in the Armenian capital quoted Armen Duliyan, head of the
Armenian defence ministry press centre, as saying Ankara had been sending
planes up to 15 times a day to Azerbaijan with arms and troops.
It looks as though the Armenian leadership will have to warn Turkey about
the impermissibility of such actions," the journalists quoted Duliyan as
saying.
"If such steps are pursued in the future we will have recourse to appropriate
measures. We have all the necessary means, including modern anti-aircraft
units."
Turkey, which shares a border with Armenia, has supported Azerbaijan in the
conflict over the mainly Armenian-populated Nagorno-Karabakh region in which
more than 2,500 people have been killed since fighting erupted in 1988.
The Turkish foreign ministry said on Friday it had so far sent one plane to
Azerbaijan containing humanitarian aid.
A Turkish foreign ministry spokesman on Thursday would not comment directly
on a report by Hurriyet newspaper that a first consignment of rockets, rocket
launchers, ammunition and light weapons had arrived in Azerbaijan from Turkey.
Duliyan said Turkey had been sending up to 30 trucks a day carrying troops
and arms to the bordering Azeri autonomous territory of Nakhichevan, from where
they were flown across Armenian airspace to the Azeri capital Baku.
"All the responsibility for possible consequences will be borne by the
country which is affording military assistance over our airspace," he said.
Armenia denies any formal role in the conflict, saying that the troops
involved in the fighting are from the enclave itself.
Tass said the Karabakh forces decided on Friday to suspend their offensive
along the entire Armenian-Azerbaijani front.
"The Karabakh authorities are reportedly ready to give independent
inspectors a chance to see for themselves on the spot that the (enclave's)
leadership is striving to achieve a ceasefire," the agency said.
Armenian President Levon Ter-Petrosyan called for a two-stage ceasefire in
Karabakh when he arrived in the Belarus capital Minsk on Friday for a summit of
Commonwealth leaders.
"The first stage of the settlement should involve a ceasefire and securing the
protection of the Karabakh population," Tass quoted him as saying.
At least 10 ceasefires have been brokered in the conflict but all have
collapsed.
"The second stage should involve discussing and finding a solution to the
legal issues: that is, a clarification of the status of Nagorno-Karabakh," he
said. The republic declared full independence last year but the move has not
been recognised by any other country.
Armenia insists that a separate Karabakh delegation should take part in future
peace talks, something Azerbaijan rejects.
Local news agencies in Baku said on Friday that Interior Minister Iskender
Gamidov, a fiery nationalist and hardliner in the territorial dispute with
Armenia, had resigned.
Turan news agency said he quit on Thursday and had cleared his office.
Khabar-Servis agency said he would be replaced by the military commandant of
Baku, police Major-General Abdullah Allakhverdiyev. There was no official
confirmation.
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Lines: 293
Dear friends,
I am a graduate student in Education at the University of Tennessee. As part of
the requirements for a research class in music education I designed a
questionnaire to colect data for my research project. The study intends to
determine which techniques (if any) have been used to teach music for the deaf.
If you have any experience in music education for the deaf and would like to
help me with this project, your help would be very much appreciated.
If you also want to exchange some ideas about the subject matter, feel yourself
welcome. I have been working in this area for a while (in Brazil _ by the way,
I am Brazilian _ and also in US) and I am very pleased with the results.
I hope that this inquiry will not cause too many inconveniences. Thank you for
or time and consideration.
__QUESTIONNAIRE__
Teaching Music for deaf children.
NAME ________________________________
ADDRESS/ E-MAIL _____________________
EMPLOYING INSTITUTION _______________
YEARS OF EXPERIENCE_________ GRADE LEVEL(S)____
EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND:BACHELOR__ MASTERS__ DOCTORATE__
PROFESSIONAL FIELD:SPECIAL EDUC.__  MUSIC EDUC.__ OTHER*__
*If you checked "other", please indicate your major: ____
Some school systems require music to be taught to deaf children, other
school systems have not thought of the possibility to teach music for children
with hearing limitations. The following questionnaire was designed to find out
how teachers face the issue of teaching or not teaching music for the deaf.
Also, a part of this study is to determine teachers attitudes towards music
programs for deaf children.
DIRECTIONS:
READ THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS AND CIRCLE THE NUMBER THAT BEST DESCRIBES
YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS MUSIC FOR DEAF CHILDREN (LEFT COLUMN), AND CIRCLE THE
APPROPRIATE "YES", "NO" OR "NOT APPLICABLE", WHETHER YOU DO THE TASK (RIGHT
COLUMN).
SD= Strongly disagree			Y= yes
DIS= Disagree				N= no
NEU= Neutral				N/A= not applicable
AG= Agree
SA= Strongly agree
SD  DIS  NEU  AG  SA		COMPETENCIES			Y  N  N/A
___________________________________________________________________________
1   2    3    4   5	1.Deaf children can be educated in      y  n  n/a
music.
1   2    3    4   5	2.Deaf children should have regular     y  n  n/a
music classes.
1   2    3    4   5	3.A special music teacher must posses   y  n  n/a
an appropriate training in a variety
of communication methods to use with
deaf children.
1   2    3    4   5	4.In preparing the lessons the teacher  y  n  n/a
must keep in mind that deaf children
may present special needs in order to
participate in musical activities.
1   2   3     4   5	5.Deaf and normal hearing children   	y  n  n/a
should have music classes together.
1   2   3     4   5	6. 80% of a succesful music experience  y  n  n/a
by a deaf child depends upon the
teacher's creativity and commitment
with the subject matter.
1   2   3     4   5	7.Deaf children can learn to appreciate y  n  n/a
music but they will never be a musician
or a performer.
1   2   3     4   5	8.Deaf children are not able to		y  n  n/a
discriminate and recognize sounds.
1   2   3     4   5	9.Deaf children can not distinguish	y  n  n/a
among loud and soft sounds.
1   2   3     4   5	10.Deaf children can never match the    y  n  n/a
music in their head to a note on a
musical instrument.
1   2   3     4   5	11.The most appropriate material to	y  n  n/a
start music classes for the deaf
would be the folk songs said he would be replaced by the military commandant of
Baku, police Major-General Abdullah Allakhverdiyev. There was no official
confirmation.
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY SOLD 400 TONES OF ARMENIAN BONES IN 1924.
Keywords: April 24, 1993, 78th Anniversary of the Turkish Genocide of Armenians
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 68
Yarn of Cargo of Human Bones [1]
Copyright, 1924, by the New York Times Company
Special Cable to The New York Times
PARIS, Dec 22, -- Marseilles is excited by a weird story of the arrival in
that port of a ship flying the British flag and named Zan carrying a
mysterious cargo of 400 tons of human bones consigned to manufacturers there.
The bones are said to have been loaded at Mudania on the Sea of Marmora and
to be the remains of the victims of massacres in Asia Minor. In view of the
rumors circulating it is expected that an inquiry will be instigated.
- - - Reference - - -
[1] _New York Times_, December 23, 1924, page 3, column 2 (bottom)
- - - - - - - - - - - -
On the 78th Commemorative Anniversary of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians,
we remember those whose only crime was to be Armenian in the shadow of an
emerging Turkish proto-fascist state. In their names we demand justice.
In April 1915, the Turkish government began a systematically executed
de-population of the eastern Anatolian homeland of the Armenians through a
genocidal extermination. This genocide was to insure that Turks exclusively
ruled over the geographic area today called the Republic of Turkey. The
result: 1.5 million murdered, 30 billion dollars of Armenian property stolen
and plundered. This genocide ended nearly 3,000 years of Armenian civilization
on those lands. Today, the Turkish government continues to scrape clean any
vestige of a prior Armenian existence on those lands. Today's Turkish
governmental policy is to re-write the history of the era, to manufacture
distortion and generate excuses for their genocide of the Armenian people. In
the face of refutation ad nauseam, the Turkish Historical Society and cronies
shamelessly continue to deny that any such genocide occurred. This policy
merely demonstrates that in the modern era, genocide is an effective state
policy when it remains un-redressed and un-punished. A crime unpunished is a
crime encouraged. Adolf Hitler took this cue less than 25 years after the
successful genocide of the Armenians.
Turkey claims there was no systematic deportation of Armenians, yet...
Armenians were removed from every city, town, and village in the whole of
Turkey! Armenians who resisted deportation and massacre are referred to as
"rebels".
Turkey claims there was no genocide of the Armenians, yet...Turkish population
figures today show zero Armenians in eastern Turkey, the Armenian homeland.
Turkey claims Armenians were always a small minority, yet...Turkey claims
Armenians were a "threat".
In a final insult to the victims, the Republic of Turkey sold the bones of
approximately 100,000 murdered Armenians for profit to Europe.
Today, the Turkish government is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. The
success of this genocide is hangs over the heads of Turkey's Kurdish
population.
The Armenians demand recognition, reparation, return of Armenian land and
property lost as a result of this genocide.
ARMENIANS DEMAND JUSTICE                              ERMENILER ADALET ISTIYOR
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal
From: hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES (Henrik)
Lines: 95
Nntp-Posting-Host: viktoria.dsv.su.se
Reply-To: hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
Organization: Dept. of Computer and Systems Sciences, Stockholm University
|>The student of "regional killings" alias Davidian (not the Davidian religios sect) writes:
|>Greater Armenia would stretch from Karabakh, to the Black Sea, to the
|>Mediterranean, so if you use the term "Greater Armenia" use it with care.
Finally you said what you dream about. Mediterranean???? That was new....
The area will be "greater" after some years, like your "holocaust" numbers......
|>It has always been up to the Azeris to end their announced winning of Karabakh
|>by removing the Armenians! When the president of Azerbaijan, Elchibey, came to
|>power last year, he announced he would be be "swimming in Lake Sevan [in
|>Armeniaxn] by July".
*****
Is't July in USA now????? Here in Sweden it's April and still cold.
Or have you changed your calendar???
|>Well, he was wrong! If Elchibey is going to shell the
|>Armenians of Karabakh from Aghdam, his people will pay the price! If Elchibey
****************
|>is going to shell Karabakh from Fizuli his people will pay the price! If
******************
|>Elchibey thinks he can get away with bombing Armenia from the hills of
|>Kelbajar, his people will pay the price.
***************
NOTHING OF THE MENTIONED IS TRUE, BUT LET SAY IT's TRUE.
SHALL THE AZERI WOMEN AND CHILDREN GOING TO PAY THE PRICE WITH
**************
BEING RAPED, KILLED AND TORTURED BY THE ARMENIANS??????????
HAVE YOU HEARDED SOMETHING CALLED: "GENEVA CONVENTION"???????
YOU FACIST!!!!!
Ohhh i forgot, this is how Armenians fight, nobody has forgot
you killings, rapings and torture against the Kurds and Turks once
upon a time!
|>And anyway, this "60
|>Kurd refugee" story, as have other stories, are simple fabrications sourced in
|>Baku, modified in Ankara. Other examples of this are Armenia has no border
|>with Iran, and the ridiculous story of the "intercepting" of Armenian military
|>conversations as appeared in the New York Times supposedly translated by
|>somebody unknown, from Armenian into Azeri Turkish, submitted by an unnamed
|>"special correspondent" to the NY Times from Baku. Real accurate!
Ohhhh so swedish RedCross workers do lie they too? What ever you say
"regional killer", if you don't like the person then shoot him that's your policy.....l
|>[HE]	Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.<-------
|>[HE]	since it's content is announced to be weapons? 				i
i
|>Well, big mouth Ozal said military weapons are being provided to Azerbaijan	i
|>from Turkey, yet Demirel and others say no. No wonder you are so confused!	i
i
i
Confused?????								i
You facist when you delete text don't change it, i wrote:		i
i
Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.	i
Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons  <-----------i
to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan
it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons
since it's content is announced to be weapons?
If there is one that's confused then that's you! We have the right (and we do)
to give weapons to the Azeris, since Armenians started the fight in Azerbadjan!
|>You are correct, all Turkish planes should be simply shot down! Nice, slow
|>moving air transports!
Shoot down with what? Armenian bread and butter? Or the arms and personel
of the Russian army?
Hilmi Eren
Stockholm University
Nntp-Posting-Host: sinober.ifi.uio.no
From: michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Lines: 18
Originator: michaelp@sinober.ifi.uio.no
In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
> In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
> Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
> the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
> (the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
> saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
>
> Steve
>
Was the article about zionism? or about something else. The majority
of people I heard emitting this ignorant statement, do not really
know what zionism is. They have just associated it with what they think
they know about the political situation in the middle east.
So Steve: Lets here, what IS zionism?
Michael
From: bds@uts.ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce d. Scott)
Subject: Re: News briefs from KH # 1026
Organization: Rechenzentrum der Max-Planck-Gesellschaft in Garching
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uts.ipp-garching.mpg.de
Mack posted:
"I know nothing about statistics, but what significance does the
relatively small population growth rate have where the sampling period
is so small (at the end of 1371)?"
This is not small. A 2.7 per cent annual population growth rate implies
a doubling in 69/2.7 \approx 25 years. Can you imagine that? Most people
seem not able to, and that is why so many deny that this problem exists,
for me most especially in the industrialised countries (low growth rates,
but large environmental impact). Iran's high growth rate threatens things
like accelerated desertification due to intensive agriculture, deforestation,
and water table drop. Similar to what is going on in California (this year's
rain won't save you in Stanford!). This is probably more to blame than
the current government's incompetence for dropping living standards
in Iran.
--
Gruss,
Dr Bruce Scott                             The deadliest bullshit is
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik       odorless and transparent
bds at spl6n1.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de                 -- W Gibson
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #011
Summary: Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 210
Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #011
Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
+-------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                       |
|   "Right, we should slaughter the Armenians!" and     |
|    "There's no need to be afraid, all of Moscow is    |
|    behind us." I even heard that: "All Moscow is      |
|    behind us." Well I watched and listened in and     |
|    realized that this was no joke.                    |
|							|
+-------------------------------------------------------+
DEPOSITION OF YURI VAGARSHAKOVICH MUSAELIAN
Born 1953
Line Electrician
Sumgait Streetcar and Trolleybus Administration
Resident at Building 4/21, Apartment 29
Block 14, Narimanov Street
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]
I spent almost all of February doing overhaul. The 27th was a short day at
work, we worked until eleven or eleven-thirty and left for home. I decided
to go for a short walk. I went to Primorsky Park. I walked past the Eternal
Flame and saw a group of about 8 to 10 people standing there. When I had
walked another 15 to 20 yards I heard the screech of automobile brakes
behind me. I turned my head toward the sound. It was a light blue GAZ-24
Volga. I see that the people who were standing there have gone over to the
car. A man and a woman get out. The man is expensively dressed, in a suit,
and the woman has a raincoat on. She doesn't have anything on her head, and
her hair is let down, sightly reddish hair, a heavy-set woman. They're 40 to
45 years old. They get something out of the trunk. The people start to help
them. I become curious just what are they pulling out of there?
When I got up close I heard them turn something on. I didn't see what it was,
but it was probably a tape recorder. They put it on the ground near the
Eternal Flame honoring the 26 Baku Commissars and formed a tight circle
around it. I ask, "What's going on?" Someone tells me, "Come listen." Well
they were Azerbaijanis, I had asked in Azerbaijani. I hear appeals: "Brother
Muslims, our time has come . . . " and something else along that line. I
didn't understand what it was all about. I walked around the group trying to
get a look at the owner of the tape recorder. But the circle drew in tighter.
New people started coming from various directions, five here, seven there. And
the comments started: "Right, we should slaughter the Armenians!" and "There's
no need to be afraid, all of Moscow is behind us." I even heard that: "All
Moscow is behind us." Well I watched and listened in and realized that this
was no joke. I quietly left and went home.
Now before that at work I had heard that something was going on in Karabagh,
that there were demonstrations there. Well, people were saying all kinds of
things, but I didn't have any idea what was really going on.
My wife and son were at home, but my daughter was at my aunt's house in Baku.
I didn't say anything to my wife. We sat and drank tea. Sometime around two
o'clock right behind our house suddenly there is noise, whistling, and
shouting. I looked out the window and saw a crowd. The crowd is moving slowly,
like they show on TV when blacks in South Africa are striking or having a
demonstration and move slowly.
My wife asks what's going on out there. I say I don't know. I put on some
outdoor clothes and went out to find out what it was all about. In the crowd
people are shouting "Down with the Armenians!" and "Death to the Armenians!" I
waited for the entire crowd to pass. At first they went down Narimanov Street
on the side with the SK club and the City Party Committee; then they turned
and went against the traffic--it's one way there--down the Street of the 26
Baku Commissars toward the streetcar line. I went home and told my wife there
was a demonstration going on. In fact I thought that we were having the same
kind of demonstrations that they had had in Yerevan and in Karabagh. Aside
from the things they were shouting, I was surprised that there were only young
people in the crowd. And they were minors, under draft age.
My wife and son wanted to go upstairs to visit a friend, but I was kind of
uneasy and said, "No, let's stay at home instead." An hour went by, or maybe
an hour and a half. Well, I wasn't keeping track of the time, I can't say
exactly how long it was. I look and see another crowd on Narimanov, but now on
the side with the microdistricts, the bazaar, and the Rossiya movie theater.
I put outside clothes on and went out again. There's noise, an uproar outside,
and the crowd has grown. There are more people. And whereas the first time
there were individual shouts, this time they are more focused, more
aggressive. No, I think, something's wrong here, this isn't any demonstration.
They would run, stop, then walk quickly and make sharp dashes, and then run
again. I was walking along the sidewalk and they were in the street. I
followed them. I was thinking I'd just watch and see. Who knew where this was
leading? We came out on Lenin Square. At the square the SK club is on one
side, and the City Party Committee is on the other. I went toward the square
and heard noise and shouting, as though the whole town had turned out. There
was some sort of a rally going on. I go closer and hear exclamations, appeals.
I heard both anti-Armenian and anti-Soviet appeals. "We don't need
perestroika, we want to go on living like we have been." Now what did they
mean by "living like we have been?" The Azerbaijanis work like everyone else.
But too many people live at the expense of the government and at the expense
of others. Speculation, theft, and cheating go on all the time. And not just
in Azerbaijan, everywhere, in all the republics, but I've never seen it
anywhere else like I have in Azerbaijan.
Now at this rally someone says that they should go around to the Armenians'
apartments and drive them out, beat them and drive them out. True, I didn't
hear them say "kill them" over the microphone, I only heard "beat them and
drive them out." I stayed at the square a few minutes longer. First one, then
another are going up onto the stage, and no one tries to stop the crowd. Off
to the side of the crowd there were small groups of three or four people, and
I think they were MVD [Ministry of Internal Affairs] or State Security KGB.
There were also uniformed policemen there, but I didn't see any of them try
to pacify the crowd. New people kept coming up onto the stage.
Well I had finally decided that this could end badly: This was no
demonstration, and I had to protect my family.
I left the Square to return home and suddenly noticed a truck. It was next
to the City Party Committee, on Narimanov Street, it stood next to the tai-
lor's shop there, a low truck, and it had low, wooden panels. I see that some-
thing is being unloaded, crates of some sort. I decided to go look because
after all those appeals I was apprehensive and thought there might be weapons
in there. They pulled the crates out onto the square, not toward the City
Party Committee, but toward the SK club. And when I went right up to them I
saw that they were cases of vodka. There were two people handing down the
cases from the bed of the truck, and on the ground there were many people, 15
to 20. They were handing them down from the truck and each case was carried
off by two people. Two people, one case of vodka. And there was a man standing
right next to the truck and he was handing out roundish black lumps, maybe
about the size of a fist, maybe a little bigger or smaller. It was anasha.
When I passed next to that person, he stood with his side to me. There was
about a yard and a half between us, and two people were standing near him. He
has a package in his hand, and he's pulling out anasha and handing it out. I
have never smoked it myself. Once I tried it for fun, but I've seen a lot of
people smoke it, I've seen it many times, and I know what it is. I strolled
around and no one asked me who I was or what I was doing there.
Before I got to the Glass Bazaar I heard more howling, more warlike shouting.
I turned around and saw them running. Well I'll just keep on going like I am,
I thought. When they caught up with me I saw that they were carrying flags.
And I recognized the person who was carrying the flag on my side of the
street. He's a young guy, 21 or 22 years old. He was carrying a red flag,
which had "Ermeni oryum" written on it in Azerbaijani, that means "Death to
Armenians!" That guy used to live off the same courtyard as us. I don't really
know what his name is, but I know his father very well. His father's name is
Rafik; he used to be a cook, and then became head chef. He used to have a dark
blue Zhiguli van, then he sold it and now he has a white Zhiguli 06. His
family, as I said, lived on the same courtyard as we did. Our building was on
Narimanov Street, and theirs was on the Street of the 26 Baku Commissars;
their apartment was in the far entryway, on the fifth floor, the door on the
left. Now Rafik's little brother lives there, and he, Rafik, I heard, got a
new apartment either in the forth or eighth microdistrict. In a word, his son
was carrying a flag that said "Death to Armenians!" I was surprised because
before this I had gotten the impression that all of this nonsense was being
done not by people from Sumgait, but by Azerbaijanis from Agdam and Kafan.
Well anyway I went home. My wife was upset. I told her, "It's OK, it'll pass,
they're young kids, they've just gotten all whooped up." Naturally I didn't
want her to get overly upset. After a while a new surge of crowd went by. And
this time they were breaking glass. I could hear it breaking, but I couldn't
see where. Well I think, here we go, the machine's in motion. They weren't
handing out that vodka and anasha for nothing. I didn't see people drinking
and smoking on the spot, but they certainly hadn't unloaded the vodka and
hashish to put in a store window!
So the thought flashed through my head that the machine was running, no one
would stop them now, they weren't even trying, although, I'll say it again,
the police were there, I saw them. And it's not just that the police weren't
breaking them up, they were joking with them, they were having a good time.
True, at the time I couldn't even imagine that under our government, our much-
vaunted leadership--and I'm not afraid to say these words: so many people
died, So many women were abused, and how many abominations there were!--I
couldn't imagine that under our much-vaunted authorities, and if I were to be
specific, I would say under the much-touted authorities in our city of
Sumgait, I couldn't imagine that such things could take place.
When they started breaking glass I told my wife and son: "Let's go upstairs."
We went to our neighbors, the Grigorians, on the fourth floor. And in the
evening, when those crowds started going past again, I went outside once more.
I stopped at "The Corner," a place called that right next to the bazaar. I
look and see a crowd on the run. And there, a few yards from the entrance to
the bazaar, are three respectable-looking men of around, say, 50 years old.
The crowd was running and one of the three waved with his arm and pointed
toward the bazaar. And then the whole crowd, as though it were one person,
wheeled and raced toward the bazaar. And not a soul went past those three, as
though it were off limits! Well everything got all churned up, there was more
noise, and the glass was flying again.
We spent the night at the neighbors'. My apartment was on the first floor,
there was really no way to defend yourself there.
In the morning I went out to buy bread and to see what was happening in town.
On the way I saw someone hunched up, still. I never found out who it was or
what happened to him. There were 10 to 15 people standing near him. I got the
bread and on my way back, they had gathered around the person who was lying
there hunched up, sort of enclosing him; because of the way they were standing
you couldn't even see him.
That was on the morning of February 28. Everyone knows the rest.
May 17, 1988
Yerevan
- - - reference - - -
[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 161-164
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: mtaghavi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Amir Taghavi)
Subject: U.S. WANTS IRAN TO END TERRORISM LINKS
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnusug.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 27
WASHINGTON (UPI) -- A senior State Department official on Tuesday
ruled out any softening of U.S. attitudes toward Iraq but said relations
with Iran's Islamic regime could improve substantially if that
government disassociates itself from international terrorism.
``Despite the name-calling and the harsh rhetoric from across the
Gulf, despite all this, we do not take a position of permanent hostility
towards the Islamic Republic of Iran,'' David Mack, deputy assistant
secretary for Near Eastern Affairs, said.
The primary U.S. objection is ``Iran's international behaviour''
which includes ``extending support of violence'' to disrupt the Arab
Israeli peace process and its rapid build-up of dangerous weapons.
Mack said ``Iran could contribute to regional stability and peace but
first it is to end the behaviour which threatens this area.''
Mack spoke at the U.S.-GCC business conference aimed at promoting
Gulf-American trade. He said the ``Middle East will be an item very high
on the agenda of the U.S. administration.''
The importance of the Gulf is underlined by Secretary of State Warren
Christoper's visit last year to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait before anywhere
else in the world, Mack said. He added that the U.S. has no long-term
plan to station troops in the Gulf.
Mack also insisted that the Clinton administration will continue to
pressure Iraq to ``comply with all the U.N. Security resolutions.''
``As long as Iraq is ruled by Saddam Hussein we do not expect
compliance,'' Mack told delegates.
"Copyright 1993 by <UPI/Newsbytes>
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500354:000:5791
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 23 15:10:00 1993
Lines: 126
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?
Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
------------------------------------
While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
attempt to starve the Gazans.
The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
strip and seek work in Israel.
While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.
The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
justice. A population denied basic human rights is entitled to
rise up against its tormentors.
As is known, the Israeli regime is considering Gazans unworthy of
Israeli citizenship and equal rights in Israel, although they are
considered worthy to do the dirty work in Israeli hotels, shops
and fields. Many Gazans are born in towns and villages located in
Israel. They may not live there, for these areas are reserved for
the Master Race.
The Nazi regime accorded to the residents of the Warsaw ghetto the
right to self- administration.  They selected Jews to pacify the
occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. Some
Jewish collaborators were killed. Israel also wishes to rule over
Gaza through Arab collaborators.
As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
society does not consider Gazans full human beings. This attitude
is consistent with the attitude of the Nazis towards Jews. The
current policies by the Israeli government of cutting off Gaza are
consistent with the wish publicly expressed by Prime Mininister
Yitzhak Rabin that 'Gaza sink into the sea'. One is led to ask
oneself whether Israeli leaders entertain still more sinister
goals towards the Gazans ? Whether they have some Final Solution
up their sleeve ?
I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.
Elias Davidsson Iceland
From elias@ismennt.is Fri Apr 23 02:30:21 1993 Received: from
isgate.is by igc.apc.org (4.1/Revision: 1.77 )
id AA00761; Fri, 23 Apr 93 02:30:13 PDT Received: from
rvik.ismennt.is by isgate.is (5.65c8/ISnet/14-10-91); Fri, 23 Apr
1993 09:29:41 GMT Received: by rvik.ismennt.is
(16.8/ISnet/11-02-92); Fri, 23 Apr 93 09:30:23 GMT From:
elias@ismennt.is (Elias Davidsson) Message-Id:
<9304230930.AA11852@rvik.ismennt.is> Subject: no subject (file
transmission) To: cpr@igc.org Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 9:30:22 GMT
X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO
Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
------------------------------------
While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
attempt to starve the Gazans.
The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
strip and seek work in Israel.
While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.
The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
justice. A population denied basic human rights is entitled to
rise up against its tormentors.
As is known, the Israeli regime is considering Gazans unworthy of
Israeli citizenship and equal rights in Israel, although they are
considered worthy to do the dirty work in Israeli hotels, shops
and fields. Many Gazans are born in towns and villages located in
Israel. They may not live there, for these areas are reserved for
the Master Race.
The Nazi regime accorded to the residents of the Warsaw ghetto the
right to self- administration.  They selected Jews to pacify the
occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. Some
Jewish collaborators were killed. Israel also wishes to rule over
Gaza through Arab collaborators.
As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
society does not consider Gazans full human beings. This attitude
is consistent with the attitude of the Nazis towards Jews. The
current policies by the Israeli government of cutting off Gaza are
consistent with the wish publicly expressed by Prime Mininister
Yitzhak Rabin that 'Gaza sink into the sea'. One is led to ask
oneself whether Israeli leaders entertain still more sinister
goals towards the Gazans ? Whether they have some Final Solution
up their sleeve ?
I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.
Elias Davidsson Iceland
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Symbiotics: Zionism-Antisemitism
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500355:000:10647
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 23 15:14:00 1993
Lines: 197
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Symbiotics: Zionism-Antisemitism
Zionism and the Holocaust
-------------------------- by Haim Bresheeth
The first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history
of the Holocaust by Zionist propaganda is that Zionism without
anti-semitism is impossible. Zionism agrees with the basic tenet
of anti-Semitism, namely that Jews cannot live with non- Jews.
The history and roots of the Holocaust go back a long way. While
the industru of death and destruction did not operate before 1942,
its roots were firmly placed in the 19th Century. Jewish
aspirations for emancipation emerged out of the national struggles
in Europe. When the hopes for liberation through
bourgeois-democratic change were dashed, other alternatives for
improving the lot of the Jews of Europe achieved prominence.
The socialist Bund, a mass movement with enormous following, had
to contend with opposition from a new and small, almost
insignificant opponent, the political Zionists.  In outline these
two offered diametrically opposed options for Jews in Europe.
While the Bund was suggesting joining forces with the rest of
Europe's workers, the Zionists were proposing a new programme
aimed at ridding Europe of its Jews by setting up some form of a
Jewish state.
Historically, nothing is inevitable, all depends on the balance of
forces involved in the struggle. History can be seen as an option
tree: every time a certain option is chosen, other routes become
barred. Because of that choice, movement backwards to the point
before that choice was made is impossible. While Zionism as an
option was taken by many young Jews, it remained a minority
position until the first days of the 3rd Reich. The Zionist
Federation of Germany (ZVfD), an organisation representing a tiny
minority of German Jews, was selected by the Nazis as the body to
represent the Jews of the Reich. Its was the only flag of an
interantional organisation allowed to fly in Berlin, and this was
the only international organisation allowed to operate during this
period. From a marginal position, the leaders of the Zionist
Federation were propelled to a prominence and centrality that
surprised even them. All of a sudden they attained political
power, power based not on representation, but from being selected
as the choice of the Nazi regime for dealing with the the 'Jewish
problem'. Their position in negotiating with the Nazis agreements
that affected the lives of many tens of thousands of the Jews in
Germany transformed them from a utopian, marginal organisation in
Germany (and some other countries in Europe) into a real option to
be considered by German Jews.
The best example of this was the 'Transfer Agreement' of 1934.
Immediately after the Nazi takeover in 1933, Jews all over the
world supported or were organising a world wide boycott of German
goods. This campaign hurt the Nazi regime and the German
authorities searched frantically for a way disabling the boycott.
It was clear that if Jews and Jewish organisations were to pull
out, the campaign would collapse.
This problem was solved by the ZVfD. A letter sent to the Nazi
party as early as 21.  June 1933, outlined the degree of agreement
that existed between the two organisations on the question of
race, nation, and the nature of the 'Jewish problem', and it
offered to collaborate with the new regime:
"The realisation of Zionism could only be hurt by resentment of
Jews abroad against the German development. Boycott propaganda -
such as is currently being carried out against Germany in many
ways - is in essence unZionist, because Zionism wants not to do
battle but to convince and build."
In their eagerness to gain credence and the backing of the new
regime, the Zionist organisation managed to undermine the boycott.
The main public act was the signature of the "Transfer Agreement"
with the Nazi authorities during the Zionist Congress of 1934. In
essence, the agreement was designed to get Germany's Jews out of
the country and into Mandate Palestine. It provided a possibility
for Jews to take a sizeable part of their property out of the
country, through a transfer of German goods to Palestine. This
right was denied to Jews leaving to any other destination. The
Zionist organisation was the acting agent, through its financial
organisations. This agreement operated on a number of fronts -
'helping' Jews to leave the country, breaking the ring of the
boycott, exporting German goods in large quantities to Palestine,
and last but not least, enabling the regime to be seen as humane
and reasonable even towards its avowed enemies, the Jews. After
all, they argued, the Jews do not belong in Europe and now the
Jews come and agree with them.
After news of the agreement broke, the boycott was doomed. If the
Zionist Organization found it possible and necessary to deal with
the Nazis, and import their goods, who could argue for a boycott ?
This was not the first time that the interests of both movements
were presented to the German public as complementary. Baron Von
Mildenstein, the first head of the Jewish Department of the SS,
later followed by Eichmann, was invited to travel to Palestine.
This he did in early 1933, in the company of a Zionist leader,
Kurt Tuchler. Having spent six months in Palestine, he wrote a
series of favourable articles in Der STURMER describing the 'new
Jew' of Zionism, a Jew Nazis could accept and understand.
This little-known episode established quite clearly the
relationship during the early days of Nazism, between the new
regime and the ZVfD, a relationship that was echoed later in a
number of key instances, even after the nature of the Final
Solution became clear. In many cases this meant a silencing of
reports about the horrors of the exterminations. A book
concentrating on this aspect of the Zionist reaction to the
Holocaust is Post-Ugandan Zionism in the Crucible of the
Holocaust, by S. B. Beth-Zvi.
In the case of the Kastner episode, around which Jim Allen's play
PERDITION is based, even the normal excuse of lack of knowledge of
the real nature of events does not exist. It occured near the end
of the war. The USSR had advanced almost up to Germany. Italy and
the African bases had been lost. The Nazis were on the run, with a
number of key countries, such as Rumania, leaving the Axis. A
second front was a matter of months away, as the western Allies
prepared their forces. In the midst of all this we find Eichmann,
the master bureaucrat of industrial murder, setting up his HZ in
occupied Budapest, after the German takeover of the country in
April 1944. His first act was to have a conference with the Jewish
leadership, and to appoint Zionist Federation members, headed by
Kastner as the agent and clearing house for all Jews and their
relationship with the SS and the Nazr authorities. Why they did
this is not difficult to see. As opposed to Poland, where its
three and  a half million Jews lived in ghettoes and were visibly
different from the rest of the Polish population, the Hungarian
Jews were an integrated part of the community. The middle class
was mainly Jewish, the Jews were mainly middle-class. They enjoyed
freedom of travel, served in the Hungarian (fascist) army in
fronline units, as officers and soldiers, their names were
Hungarian - how was Eichmann to find them if they were to be
exterminated ? The task was not easy, there were a million Jews in
Hungary, most of them resident, the rest being refugees from other
countries. Many had  heard about the fate of Jews elsewhere, and
were unlikely to believe any statements by Nazi officials.
Like elsewhere, the only people who had the information and the
ear of the frightened Jewish population were the Judenrat. In this
case the Judenrat comprsied mainly the Zionist Federation members.
Without their help the SS, with 19 officers and less than 90 men,
plus a few hundred Hungarian police, could not have collected and
controlled a million Jews, when they did not even know their
whereabouts. Kastner and the others were left under no illusions.
Eichmann told Joel Brand, one of the members of Kastner's
committee, that he intended to send all Hungary's Jews to
Auschwitz, before he even started the expulsions!  He told them
clearly that all these Jews will die, 12,000 a day, unless certain
conditions were met.
The Committee faced a simple choice - to tell the Jews of Hungary
about their fate, (with neutral Rumania, where many could escape,
being in most cases a few hours away) or to collaborate with the
Nazis by assisting in the concentration process. What would not
have been believed when coming from the SS, sounded quite
plausible when coming from the mouths of the Zionist leadership.
Thus it is, that most of the Hungarian Jews went quietly to their
death, assured by their leadership that they were to be sent to
work camps.
To be sure, there are thirty pieces of silver in this narrative of
destruction: the trains of 'prominents' which Eichmann promised to
Kastner - a promise he kept to the last detail. For Eichmann it
was a bargain: allowing 1,680 Jews to survive, as the price paid
for the silent collaboration over the death of almost a million
Jews.
There was no way in which the Jews of Hungary could even be
located, not to say murdered, without the full collaboration of
Kastner and his few friends. No doubt the SS would hunt a few Jews
here and there, but the scale of the operation would have been
miniscule compared to the half million who died in Auschwitz.
It is important to realise that Kastner was not an aberration,
like say Rumkovsky in Lodz. Kastner acted as a result of his
strongly held Zionist convictions. His actions were a logical
outcome of earlier positions. This is instanced when he exposed to
the Gestapo the existence of a British cell of saboteurs, Palgi
and Senesh, and persuaded them to give themselves up, so as not to
disrupt his operations. At no point during his trial or elsewhere,
did Kastner deny that he knew exactly what was to happen to those
Jews.
To conclude, the role played by Zionists in this period, was
connected to another role they could, and should have played, that
of alarming the whole world to what was happening in Europe. They
had the information, but politically it was contrary to their
priorities. The priorities were, and still are, quite simple: All
that furthers the Zionist enterprise in Palestine is followed,
whatever the price. The lives of individuals, Jews and non-Jews,
are secondary. If this process requires dealing with fascists,
Nazis and other assorted dictatorial regimes across the world, so
be it.
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Hebrew labor: racist connotations
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500356:000:1777
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 23 15:18:00 1993
Lines: 37
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Hebrew labor: racist connotations
AVODA IVRIT - HEBREW LABOR
---------------------------------
"Hebrew labor" is a concept which has served the Zionist movement
for a long time.  It has a double-barreled message: 1) The new Jew
must learn to do physical labor, i.e. working the land; 2) The
land in this country must pass into Jewish hands, i.e. to the same
new Jew who has "learned" to work it. Both aspects of the
two-pronged concept of "Hebrew labor" have racist connotations. On
the one hand, the diaspora Jew's lack of training in physical
labor is a myth shared by Zionists and antisemites.  On the other
hand, its meaning in practice has been the displacement of the
Arab farmer from the source of his livelihood.
The occupation and the cheap Palestinian labor which streamed from
the occupied territories to the factories, orchards, and
hot-houses of Israel relegated the myth of "Hebrew labor" to the
history books and nostalgic memories of the Zionist Movement. It
has blossomed forth anew, however, as the government's answer to
problems caused by the closure of the territories. Today too this
concept has two functions: 1) to give a progressive look to the
closing of the Palestinian population.  Or in the words of
Environment Minister Yossi Sarid, "I have no tears for those who
get rich off of cheap labor". 2) to furnish an answer to the
unemployed Israeli who complains of being obliged to work for
wages that are lower than the unemployment insurance he receives.
The Israeli government is considering plans to import labor from
the far- East to replace native people, Palestinians, who work in
their own country, thus creating conflicting interests between two
ethnical communities and ruling over them.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: More on ADL spying case
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
Lines: 222
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: grl.isi.edu
Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.
NEW DETAILS OF EXTENSIVE ADL SPY OPERATION EMERGE
* INQUIRY: Transcripts reveal nearly 40 years of espionage
by a man who infiltrated political groups
By Richard C. Paddock, Times staff writer.
SAN FRANCISCO -- To the outside world, Roy Bullock was a small-time
art dealer who operated from his house in the Castro District.  In
reality, he was an undercover spy who picked through garbage and
amassed secret files for the Anti-Defamation League for nearly 40
years.
His code name at the prominent Jewish organization was Cal, and he was
so successful at infiltrating political groups that he was once chosen
to head an Arab-American delegation that visited Rep. Nancy Pelosi
(D-San Francisco) in her Washington, D.C., office.
For a time, Cal tapped into the phone message system of the White
Aryan Resistance to learn of hate crimes.  From police sources he
obtained privileged, personal information on at least 1,394 people.
And he met surreptitiously with agents of the South African government
to trade his knowledge for crisp, new $100 bills.
These are among the secrets that Bullock and David Gurvitz, a former
Los Angeles-based operative, divulged in extensive interviews with
police and the FBI in a growing scandal over the nation-wide
intelligence network operated by the Anti-Defamation League.
Officials of the Anti-Defamation League, while denying any improper
activity, have said they will cooperate with the investigation.  They
have refused to discuss Bullock and Gurvitz.
Transcripts of the interviews -- among nearly 700 pages of documents
released by San Francisco prosecutors last week -- offer new details
of the private spy operation that authorities allege crossed the line
into illegal territory.
At times, the intelligence activities took on a cloak-and-dagger air
with laundered payments, shredded documents, hotel rendezvous with
foreign agents and code names like "Ironsides" and "Flipper."
On one occasion, Gurvitz recounts, he received a tip that a
pro-Palestinian activist was about to board a plane bound for Haifa,
Israel.  Although the Anti-Defamation League publicly denies any ties
to Israel, Gurvitz phoned an Israeli consular official to warn him.
Shortly afterward, another official called Gurvitz back and debriefed
him.
The court papers also added to the mystery of Tom Gerard, a former CIA
agent and San Francisco police officer accused of providing
confidential material from police files to the Anti-Defamation League.
Gerard fled to the Philippines last fall after he was interviewed by
the FBI, but left behind a briefcase in his police locker.  Its
contents included passports, driver's licenses and identification
cards in 10 different names; identification cards in his own name for
four American embassies in Central America; and a collection of blank
birth certificates, Army discharge papers and official stationery from
various agencies.
Also in the briefcase were extensive information on death squads, a
black hood, apparently for use in interrogations, and photos of
blindfolded and chained men.
Investigators suspect that Gerard and other police sources gave the
ADL confidential driver's license or vehicle registration information
on a vast number of people, including as many as 4,500 members of one
target group, the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee.
Each case of obtaining such data from a law enforcement officer would
constitute a felony, San Francisco Police Inspector Ron Roth noted in
an affidavit for a search warrant.
The Anti-Defamation League, a self-described Jewish defense and civil
rights organization, acknowledges it has long collected information on
groups that are anti-Semitic, extremist or racist. The ADL's
fact-finding division, headed by Irwinn Suall in New York, enjoys a
reputation for thoroughness and has often shared its information with
police agencies and journalists.
However, evidence seized from Bullock's computer shows he kept files
on at least 950 groups of all political stripes, including the
American Civil Liberties Union, Earth Island Institute, the United
Farm Workers, Jews for Jesus, Mother Jones magazine, the Center for
Investigative Reporting, the Bo Gritz for President Committee, the
Asian Law Caucus and the AIDS activist group ACT UP.
The computer files also included information on several members of
Congress, including Pelosi, House Armed Services Committee Chairman
Ron Dellums (D-Berkeley) and former Republican Rep. Pete McCloskey
from the Bay Area.
In their statements, Bullock and Gurvitz said the Anti-Defamation
League has collected information on political activists in the Los
Angeles area for more than 30 years.  They said they worked closely
with three Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies who specialized in
intelligence work, a Los Angeles Police Department anti-terrorism
expert and a San Diego County Sheriff's Department intelligence
officer.
A spokesman for the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department said he knew
nothing of any contact between the deputies and the ADL.  The Los
Angeles Police Department, which earlier refused to cooperate with the
investigation, and the San Diego Sheriff's Department declined
comment.
Bullock, 58, is one of the most intriguing characters in the spy
drama.  Although he is not Jewish, he began working undercover as a
volunteer for the ADL and the FBI in Indiana in 1954 after reading a
book about a man who infiltrated the Communist Party.
Bullock moved to Los Angeles in 1960 and was given a paid position by
the ADL as an intelligence operative, he told authorities.  In the
mid-1970s, he moved to San Francisco and continued his spy operations
up and down the West Coast.
To keep his identity secret, his salary has always been funneled
through Beverly Hills attorney Bruce I. Hochman -- who has never
missed a payment in more than 32 years, Bullock said.
"I was an investigator for the ADL.  I investigated any and all
anti-democratic movements," Bullock said.  ". . . Officially, I'm only
a contract worker with Bruce Hochman.  That way, the league would not
be officially connected with me."
Bullock said he became a master at infiltrating groups from Communists
to Arab-American to gay radicals to skinheads, usually using his own
name but once adopting the alias Elmer Fink.
"I'm one of a kind," he told police.
In recent years, however, his ADL affiliation has increasingly become
known, and at one point he was confronted by a skinhead armed with a
shotgun who threatened to kill him.
In the mid-1980s, he helped San Francisco police solve a bombing at a
synagogue by combing through the trash of extremist Cory Phelps and
matching handwriting with samples on a threatening letter obtained by
police.  In part because of this investigation, he became close
friends with Gerard, who at the time was working in the San Francisco
police intelligence division.
Bullock frequently searched through the garbage of target groups.  An
FBI report noted how he investigated one Palestinian group:
"Bullock would write reports based on what he found in the trash, and
would share the reports with Gerard.  Bullock also gave the trash to
Gerard for Gerard to examine.  Gerard would later return the trash to
Bullock."
From a wide range of sources, Bullock compiled files on 9,876
individuals and more than 950 political groups.  Gerard, whose files
contained many identical entries, kept files on 7,011 people.
In 1987, Bullock and Gerard began selling some of their vast wealth of
information to the South African government.  Bullock tells of
meetings secretly with South African agents at San Francisco hotels
and receiving envelopes filled with thousands of dollars in new $100
bills.
Bullock insists the information he sold consisted of data he culled
only from public sources. Once he rewrote an innocuous item published
by San Francisco Chronicle columnist Herb Caen about South African
Bishop Desmond Tutu and the wife of prominent attorney Melvin Belli --
and submitted it as his own work.
Bullock said it was Gerard who sold official police intelligence.
Bullock said he split about $16,000 from the South African government
evenly with Gerard, telling him at one point, "I may be gay but I'm a
straight arrow."
In his interviews with the police and FBI, Bullock talked freely about
engaging in certain activities that prosecutors say would appear to
violate the law.
For example, Bullock admitted to receiving driver's license records
and criminal histories from Gerard on about 50 people -- a fraction of
the confidential police data found in his computer.  And he said
Gerard gave him complete San Francisco Police Department intelligence
files on various Nazi groups that were supposed to be destroyed under
department policy.
Bullock said he also received a confidential FBI report on the Nation
of Islam that he later shredded at the Anti-Defamation League's San
Francisco office.
Bullock seemed proud of his "Operation Eavesdrop," in which he used a
paid informant, code-named Scumbag, to help tap into a White Aryan
Resistance phone message network, listening to the messages left by
members of the right-wing group.  "For a short time, it was
wonderful," he told police.
In Los Angeles, ADL operative Gurvitz was hired about four years ago
as a "fact-finder" to keep intelligence files and occasionally go
undercover to the meetings of target groups.
Among other things, he told San Francisco authorities, the Los Angeles
ADL office kept a record of any Arab-American who had "anti-Israel
leanings" or who wrote a letter to a newspaper expressing such
sentiment.
Gurvitz was recently forced to resign after an incident in which he
attempted to misuse the ADL intelligence network to seek revenge on a
rival who got a job Gurvitz wanted at the Simon Wiesenthal Center for
Holocaust Studies.  Gurvitz got confidential police data on the rival
and threatened to expose him as a Jewish spy to a right-wing hate
group.
Gurvitz has since begun cooperating with police and the FBI in the
probe, providing considerable information about the ADL operation.
Unlike Bullock, he has been assured he is not a subject of the
investigation.
Gurvitz declined through his father in Los Angeles to be interviewed
by The Times. Bullock's attorney said his client would not comment.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
From: gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin)
Subject: Kol Israel Broacasts
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Toronto
Lines: 5
Does anyone have a schedule of Kol Israel broadcasts in different
languages that could be posted or e-mailed to me. Your
assistance would be greatly appreciated
GF
Reply-To: dcs@witsend.tnet.com
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
X-Newsposter: TMail version 1.20R
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism
Distribution: world
Lines: 23
In <1993Apr21.104330.16704@ifi.uio.no>, michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)  wrote:
#
# In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
# > In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
# > Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
# > the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
# > (the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
# > saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
# >
# Was the article about zionism? or about something else. The majority
# of people I heard emitting this ignorant statement, do not really
# know what zionism is. They have just associated it with what they think
# they know about the political situation in the middle east.
#
# So Steve: Lets here, what IS zionism?
Assuming that you mean 'hear', you weren't 'listening': he just
told you, "Zionism is Racism."  This is a tautological statement.
--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---
From: oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Lines: 28
In article <1993Apr20.214322.8698@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.131336@IASTATE.EDU>, oyalcin@IASTATE.EDU (Onur Yalcin) writes:
>OY] ...[deleted]...
>OY]
>OY] If you are really interested, I can provide you with a number of references
>OY] on the issue.  Just send me EMail for that.
>
>	You think I am that STUPID to ask you for REFERENCES !  NOT !
>	I have many GREEK friends that I could ask for the INFO if I
>	needed. I have already read many articles and DO NOT need
>	your help. Boy, how generous !!
>
There is a very narrow margin of stupidity between accepting my references and
those of the Greeks, and you just said you'd rather do the latter! That's fine
with me. I was sincere in my offer, but this saves me the effort. It doesn't
take a half-brained man to go to any library and check out a bunch of sources
of decent objectivity. Just ask a good friend for help. !:-)
"Stay on these roads,"
Onur Yalcin
--
Onur Yalcin
oyalcin@iastate.edu
"Un punto in piu`"
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 68
In article <1483500351@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>PS: My proposal has nothing to do with Nazi eugenics. It has to do with
>the search for peace which would enable justice. I don't consider that
>justice is done, when non-Jews who fled or were expelled in 1948/1967
>are not permitted to return to their homeland.
How about Jews who were expelled from their homelands in Iraq, Syria,
Jordan, Algeria, etc.?  Don't they deserve justice, too?
>This can at best be called
>pragmatism, a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong. It can
>never be called justice.
Why is your criticism ALWAYS directed against Israel, but never
against the Arab states, even when they are so much more guilty of the
accusations you make?  Is it because you now call yourself a
Palestinean?
>And peace without justice will never be peace.
This is why the "land-for-peace" formula is so foolish.  Land-for-land
or peace-for-peace seems much more just, except that it would cost the
Arabs something and so is not under consideration.
Let's not forget that about half of Israel's population are refugees
from Arab countries.  Somehow, THEIR land now being occupied by Arab
states and THEIR homes now being lived-in by Arab people are not
included in any negotiations.  Is this your prescription for peace?
>It is my conviction that the situation in which a state, through the
>law, attempts to discourage mixed marriages (as Israel does), is not
>normal. Such a state resembles more Nazi Germany and South Africa than
>Western democracies, such as the United States, in which Jews are free to
>marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands.
Again, you've somehow managed to overlook the fact that the Arab
states are much more restrictive on these points.  In fact, the
officially Judenrein policies of almost all of the Arab states makes
them resemble Nazi Germany chillingly closely.
>American Jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed
>Christian State and to have their Green cards stamped with a mark JEW.
There are many states in which Christians can live happily, many which
have official religions and Christian majorities and Christian-based
laws.  There are some 2 dozen Arab and Islamic states.  There is only
1 (one) Jewish state.  Do you have a problem with this?  Is this one
Jewish state too many?  There are others who might agree with you, you
know.
>I would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views
>and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional, infantile
>outbursts which might leed readers to infer that Jews who respect
>Judaism are uncivilized. Such behaviour is not good for Judaism.
Have you just arrived on tpm recently???  Again, the supporters of the
Arab and Islamic camps are frequently and massively guilty of
"emotional, infantile outbursts" which have weakened their positions
dramatically.  Somehow, your criticisms are very one-sided and
simple-minded.
P.S. How's the Fund coming along?
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 66
In article <ARENS.93Apr20192345@grl.ISI.EDU> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>At issue was not a trial behind closed doors, but arrest, trial and
>imprisonment in complete secrecy.  This was appraently attempted in the
>case of Vanunu and failed.  It has happened before, and there is reason
>to believe it still goes on.
The lengthy article you quote doesn't imply this.  It only states that
it is somehow POSSIBLE, not that it is in any way likely.  This is akin
to an article saying that it is POSSIBLE that the USAF has several
captured UFOs, without supporting the liklihood of such an assertion.
>Read this:
>From Ma'ariv, February 18 (possibly 28), 1992
>PUBLICATION BAN
>
>By Baruch Me'iri
>
>All those involved in this matter politely refused my request, one way
>or another: "Look, the subject is too delicate.  If I comment on it, I
>will be implicitly admitting that it is true; If I mention a specific
>case, even hint at it, I might be guilty of making public something
>which may legally not be published".
In other words, they were telling a pesky reporter to keep guessing.
Israel maintains this same attitude about nuclear weapons it may or
may not have.  The US maintains the same attitude about the presence
of nuclear weapons on specific naval craft.  By refusing to
acknowledge the existence of such weapons on specific ships, US
warships have, I believe, become unwelcome in New Zealand, which has
declared itself a nuclear-free-zone.
>The State of Israel has never officially admitted that for many years
>there have been in its prisons Israeli citizens who were sentenced to
>long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the
>crimes of which they were accused ever being made public. More
>precisely: A court ordered publication ban was placed on the fact of
>their arrest, and later on their imprisonment.
The USAF has never officially admitted to having any UFOs, either.
>In Israel of 1993, citizens are imprisoned without us, the citizens of
>this country, knowing anything about it.  Not knowing anything about
>the fact that one person or another were tried and thrown in prison,
>for security offenses, in complete secrecy.
This is stated as a fact without supporting evidence.  It would've
been more convincing if your reporter had come up with just one name
of someone who is sitting in jail, lost to the world, as he suggests.
Maybe Elvis, or JFK, somebody.
Let's put it this way: If Israel has put people away without
publicizing their arrests or the legal proceedings against them, how
has their disappearance been explained?  People have relatives,
friends and colleagues, you know.  Israel is not known as a place
where people are made to vanish.  Would you care to give us a list of
people whose whereabouts are unknown?  People who are presumed to be
imprisoned?  This whole conspiracy story isn't something that we've
come to associate with Yigal Arens before.  Perhaps from now on, we
should.
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
Subject: Re: THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY SOLD 400 TONES OF ARMENIAN BONES IN 1924.
Keywords: April 24, 1993, 78th Anniversary of the Turkish Genocide of Armenians
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 42
dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>On the 78th Commemorative Anniversary of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians,
>we remember those whose only crime was to be Armenian in the shadow of an
>emerging Turkish proto-fascist state. In their names we demand justice.
>In April 1915, the Turkish government began a systematically executed
>de-population of the eastern Anatolian homeland of the Armenians through a
>genocidal extermination. This genocide was to insure that Turks exclusively
>ruled over the geographic area today called the Republic of Turkey. The
>result: 1.5 million murdered, 30 billion dollars of Armenian property stolen
>and plundered. This genocide ended nearly 3,000 years of Armenian civilization
>on those lands. Today, the Turkish government continues to scrape clean any
>vestige of a prior Armenian existence on those lands. Today's Turkish
>governmental policy is to re-write the history of the era, to manufacture
>distortion and generate excuses for their genocide of the Armenian people. In
>the face of refutation ad nauseam, the Turkish Historical Society and cronies
>shamelessly continue to deny that any such genocide occurred. This policy
>merely demonstrates that in the modern era, genocide is an effective state
>policy when it remains un-redressed and un-punished. A crime unpunished is a
>crime encouraged. Adolf Hitler took this cue less than 25 years after the
>successful genocide of the Armenians.
[ ... ]
>ARMENIANS DEMAND JUSTICE                              ERMENILER ADALET ISTIYOR
>--
>David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
>S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the
>P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
>Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal
To which I say:
Hear, hear.  Motion seconded.
Hovig
--
Hovig Heghinian
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Department of Computer Science
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 7
I understand how israel captured the teritory and feels that it
is its right to annex it. I can't fully understand why it has
to deal with palestinians much the same way jews were treated
before the holocaust (the Final Solution) by Hitler. What I
totally don't get is why the U.S. has to subsidize the
existance of such a thorough abuser of human rights.
Just wondering
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 15
Well i'm not sure about the story nad it did seem biased. What
I disagree with is your statement that the U.S. Media is out to
ruin Israels reputation. That is rediculous. The U.S. media is
the most pro-israeli media in the world. Having lived in Europe
I realize that incidences such as the one described in the
letter have occured. The U.S. media as a whole seem to try to
ignore them. The U.S. is subsidizing Israels existance and the
Europeans are not (at least not to the same degree). So I think
that might be a reason they report more clearly on the
atrocities.
What is a shame is that in Austria, daily reports of
the inhuman acts commited by Israeli soldiers and the blessing
received from the Government makes some of the Holocaust guilt
go away. After all, look how the Jews are treating other races
when they got power. It is unfortunate.
From: enis@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (enis.surensoy)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Organization: AT&T
Lines: 4
>Armenia says it could shoot down Turkish planes
Armenia does not have pot to piss in it; let alone shooting
down modern war planes.
From: farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp (Farzin Mokhtarian)
Subject: Re: KH news # 1026
Originator: sehari@vincent2.iastate.edu
Organization: NTT Corp. Japan
Lines: 23
I wrote:
@ From:  Kayhan Havai # 1026
@ --------------------------
@
@ o Dr. Namaki,  deputy minister of health stated that infant
@   mortality (under one year old) in Iran went down from 120
@   per  thousand before the revolution to 33 per thousand at
@   the end of 1371 (last month).
@
@ o Dr Namaki also stated that before the revolution only
@   254f children received vaccinations to protect them
@   from various deseases but this figure reached 93at
@   the end of 1371.
Something funny happens to the percent sign. In paragraph
above, the vaccination rate went from 25 percent to 93 percent.
- Farzin
--
From: ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca (Mohamad Ebrahimi)
Subject: PBS Frontline: Iran and the bomb
Nntp-Posting-Host: ic17.ee.umanitoba.ca
Organization: Elect & Comp Engineering, U of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba,Canada
Lines: 75
I would like to share with netters a few points I picked up from the PBS
Frontline program regarding Iran's nuclear activities, aired on Tuesday
April 13. For the sake of brevity, I'll present them in some separate
points.
1- As many other western programs, this program was laid on a bed of
misinformation throughout the program, to maximize the effect of the
program on the viewer. Some of the misinformations were as follows:
- It was alleged that:" Late Imam Khomeini objected to Shah's technological
advancements as anti-Islamic, but now things have changed and the proof of
change is that some Iranian merchants are now selling personal computers. "!
These are the most ridiculous lies, one can make about the objectives
of the Islamic Revolution in toppling the Shah and state of the technology
in Iran after revolution.
-Iran was equally accused of using chemical weapons against Iraqi aggressors
while there has never been any proof in this regard, and nobody has seen
Iraqi soldiers or civilians injured by Iranian chemical weapons, in
contrary to what the whole world has seen about Iranian soldiers and
civilians, injured by Iraqi chemical weapons.
- While the number of martyrs during the sacred defense against Iraqi
aggression has been officially announced to be about 117,000 and even most
radical counter-revolutionary groups claim that Iran and Iraq had a total
of one million dead, this program claims that Iran alone has one million
dead left from the war.
- The translation of Iranian officials' talks are not 100% true. For
example when Iranian head of Atomic Energy says that: " It hurts me to
see that Iran is the subject of these unfriendly propaganda." The
translator says: " It hurts to see that Iran is doing unfriendly
research."!
2- Almost all alleged devices or material bought or planned to be bought
by Iranians were of countless dual usage, while the program tries to
undermine their non-military uses, without any reference to Iran's
big population and its inevitable need to other sources of energy in
near future and its current deficit in electrical power.
3- The whole program is trying to show the Sharif University of
Technology as a nuclear research center, while even the cameramen of the
program know well that in a country like Iran without a so tightly closed
society no one can make a nuclear bomb in a university! Taking in account
the scientific advancement of Sharif U. in engineering fields and its
potential role in improvement of Iran's industries and eventually the
lives of people, it is obvious that they are persuading other countries
to prevent them from further helping this university or other ones
in scientific and industrial efforts.
4- A key point in program's justifications is trying to disvalidate as
much as possible all efforts done by IAEA [*] in their numerous visits from
Iran's different sites. They say: "We are not sure if the places visited
by IAEA are the real ones or not" !, or " We can not rely on IAEA's
reports and observation, because they failed to see Iraq's nuclear
activities before" as if they didn't know that Iraq was trying to build
nuclear weapons!
5- As an extremely personal opinion, the most disgusting aspect of the
program was the arrogance of the member of US Senate foreign Affairs,
William Triplet, in his way of talking, as if he was the god talking
from the absolute knowledge!
I hope all Iranians be aware of the gradual buildup against their
country in western media, and I hope Iranian authorities continue to
their wise and calculated approach with regard to international affairs
and peaceful coexistence with friendly nations.
Mohammad
[*] International Atomic Energy Agency
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin
Nntp-Posting-Host: darch
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, NY
Lines: 103
In article <1r94f9$ge3@morrow.stanford.edu> AS.VXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Vic Filler) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.204243.19392@cs.rit.edu>,
>bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay) writes:
>>
>>I have previously posted quotations by Irgun participants that
>>totally destroys Begin's whitewash.  I have no particular desire
>>to post it yet again.
>>
>>Brendan.
>>(normally bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)
>
>You apparently think you are some sort of one-man judge and jury who
So what are you?
>can declare "total" victory and then sit back and enjoy the
>applause.  But you've picked the wrong topic if you think a few
>rigged "quotations" can sustain the legend and lie of the Deir
>Yassin "massacre."
I don't think that, you are just making noise.
>You have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology.
That's true.  I try to learn from people who know more than me,
not from useless farts.
>At the most basic level, you should know that there is a big
>difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding
>"quotations" that support your preset opinions.
Of course, I have said that more times in this group than
anyone else, I'd think.
>If you have studied the history of Israel at all you must know that
>many of the sources of your "quotations" have an axe to grind, and
>therefore you must be very careful about whom you "quote."  For
Quite true, that's why I am so careful in selecting quotes.
>example, Meir Pa'il, whom you cite, was indeed a general, a scholar,
>and a war hero.  But that doesn't mean everything that comes out of
>his mouth is gold.  In fact (and here your lack of experience
>shows), Pa'il is such a fanatic, embittered leftist that much of his
Oh bullshit.  Fanatic my bum.  Prove your blah or cork it.
>anti-Israel blathering (forget about anti-Irgun blathering) would be
>considered something like treason in non-Israel contexts.  But of
>course you don't consider this AT ALL when you find a juicy
>"quotation" that you can use to attack Israel.
How would you know what I consider?  Read my mind?
>Benny Morris (of Hashomer Hatzair) represents himself as a "scholar"
>when he rehashes the old attacks on the Irgun.  Don't be fooled.
>It's just the old Zionist ideological catfight, surfacing as an
>attack on the (then-) Likud government.  If you will look closely at
>the section on Deir Yassin in his book on the War of Independence,
>you will see his "indictment" to be pure hot air.  And this is the
>BEST HE CAN DO after decades of digging for any sort of damning
>evidence.  Unfortunately for him, because his book parades itself as
>"scholarly," he is forced to put footnotes.  So you can clearly see
>that his Deir Yassin account is based on nothing.
I looked very closely at a large number of sources.  You have no
idea what you are talking about.
>The Deir Yassin "massacre" never took place as the propagandists
>tell it, any more than the Sabra and Shatila "massacres." Do you get
That's true about the accounts of both Irgun and Arab propagandists.
Like Begin, for example.
>the feeling people like to blame the Jews for "massacres," even if
No, I never got that feeling.  I got rather opposite feelings
about people like you, though.
>they have to make them up?  It must sound spicy.  Even some Jews
>like to do it, for reasons of their own.
Honesty?  Perhaps you would explain the testimony from members
of the Irgun, to be found in their own handwriting in the
Irgun Archives in Tel Aviv, that the wounded Arabs were killed,
that a group of 80 prisoners was massacred, that Lehi proposed
exterminating everybody at the pre-raid meeting.  Exactly what
reasons can you propose that this testimony should be rejected
in favour of Begin's?
>Please, don't confuse any of you Deir Yassin "massacre" stuff
>with facts or scholarship.  You should stick to Begin's version
>unless you find something serious to contradict it.
This is very funny.  You carried on about unsupported evidence,
propagandists, axes to grind, and you end up telling us to stick
to the account of the leader of the alleged killers.  You are
obviously a hopeless case, as everyone can plainly see.
>Vic
Brendan.
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 26
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu
ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>Well i'm not sure about the story nad it did seem biased. What
>I disagree with is your statement that the U.S. Media is out to
>ruin Israels reputation. That is rediculous. The U.S. media is
>the most pro-israeli media in the world. Having lived in Europe
>I realize that incidences such as the one described in the
>letter have occured. The U.S. media as a whole seem to try to
>ignore them. The U.S. is subsidizing Israels existance and the
>Europeans are not (at least not to the same degree). So I think
>that might be a reason they report more clearly on the
>atrocities.
>	What is a shame is that in Austria, daily reports of
>the inhuman acts commited by Israeli soldiers and the blessing
>received from the Government makes some of the Holocaust guilt
>go away. After all, look how the Jews are treating other races
>when they got power. It is unfortunate.
Well said Mr. Beyer :)
--
___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
(______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.
Keywords: usa federal, government, international, non-usa government
Nntp-Posting-Host: gs135.sp.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 39
In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>  BTW, with Bosnia's large Moslem population, why have nations like
>  Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and others with either money
>  or strong military forces not spoken out more forcibly or offered
>  to help out Bosnia?
Obviously, you really don't know.
They *have* spoken out (cf Sec'y of State Christopher's recent trip to the ME),
they have provided millions in aid, and they have participated in the airlifts
to Sarajevo.  They *would* supply military aid, if the UN would lift the embargo
on arms sales.
>  The Turkish ambassador has ocassionally said
>  a thing or two, but that's all; I see no great enthusism from any
>  of those places to get *their* hands dirty.    Why does the US always
>  get stuck with this stuff?
>
See above.  (Kuwait has directly participated in the airlift of food to
Sarajevo.)
>  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>  don't count?
Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
"oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.
>
>
>---peter
>
>
>
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.
Keywords: usa federal, government, international, non-usa government
Nntp-Posting-Host: gs135.sp.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 15
I said:
In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>  don't count?
Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
"oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.
...and let's not forget Somalia, which is about as far from white as it
gets.
That's two in a row, care to try for more?
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 66
In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?
>
>While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto,
"fete"??? Since this word both formally and commonly refers to
positive/joyous events, your misuse of it here is rather unsettling.
>they repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto
>and attempt to starve the Gazans.
I certainly abhor those Israeli policies and attitudes that are
abusive towards the Palestinians/Gazans. Given that, however, there
*is no comparison* between the reality of the Warsaw Ghetto and in
Gaza.
>
>The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
>recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
>justice.
Just as international law recognizes the right of the occupying
entity to maintain order, especially in the face of elements
that are consciously attempting to disrupt the civil structure.
Ironically, international law recognizes each of these focusses
(that of the occupied and the occupier) even though they are
inherently in conflict.
>
>As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
>with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
>Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
>self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
>society does not consider Gazans full human beings.
Israel certainly cannot, and should not, continue its present
policies towards Gazan residents. There is, however, a third
alternative- the creation and implementation of a jewish "dhimmi"
system with Gazans/Palestinians as benignly "protected" citizens.
Would you find THAT as acceptable in that form as you do with
regard to Islam's policies towards its minorities?
>Whether they have some Final Solution up their sleeve ?
It is a race, then? Between Israel's anti-Palestinian/Gazan
"Final Solution" and the Arab World's anti-Israel/jewish
"Final Solution". Do you favor one? neither?
>
>I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
>they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
>political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.
Since there is justifiable worry by various parties that Israel
and Arab/Palestinian "final solution" intentions exist, isn't it
important that BOTH Israeli *and* Palestinian/Gazan "rights"
be secured?
>
>Elias Davidsson Iceland
>
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Legality of the jewish purchase
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 96
In article <1993Apr19.214951.19180@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>
>(Amir Y Rosenblatt) writes
>   > Sam Zbib Writes
>   >>No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
>   >>Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
>   >>anti-trust in the business world.
>   >>
>   >>Since we are debating the legality of a commercial
>   >>transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines
>   >>and ethics of such transactions. Basic ANTI-TRUST law says
>   >>that, while you can purchase IBM stocks for the purpose of
>   >>investing, you can not acquire a large number of those
>   >>shares with the intent or controlling IBM. You can do so
>   >>only if you make your intentions CLEAR apriori . Clearly,
>   >>the Jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some
>   >>designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate.
>   >They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.
>   >>
>   >>The palastenians sold their properties to the Jews in the
>   >>old tradition of arab hospitality. Being a multi-ethnic /
>   >>multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours
>   >>was no different, just another religion. Plus they paid fair
>   >>market value, etc... They did not know they were victims of
>   >>an international conspiracy. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist
>   >>myself, but this one is hard to dismiss).
>   >>
>
>>Right now, I'm just going to address this point.
>>When the Jewish National Fund bought most of its land,
>>It didn't buy it from the Palestinians themselves, because,
>>for the most part, they were tenant farmers (fallahin),
>>living on land owned by wealthy Arabs in Syria and Lebanon.
>>The JNF offered a premium deal, so the owners took advantage of
>>it.   It's called commerce.  The owners, however, made no
>>provisions for those who had worked for them, basically shafting
>>them by selling the land right out from under them.
>>They are to blame, not the Jews.
>>
>>
>
>Amir:
>Why would you categorize the sale of land as shafting? was
>it because it was sold to Jews? was it fair to assume that the
>fallahin would be mistreated by the jews? is this the norm of
>any commerce (read shafting) between arabs and  jews?
It was shafting on the part of the Arab land owners for doing it
without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible
enough to make provisions for them, but rather just leaving
them to their fate.
>
>Your claim that the Lebanese/Syrian Landlords sold Palestine
>(if true, even partially) omits the fact that the mandate
>treaty put Lebanon and Syria under French rule, while
>Palestine under british.  Obiviously, any such landlord
>would have found himself a foreigner in Palestine and would
>be motivated to sell, regardless of the price.
The point is that the land was sold legally, often at prices
above its actual value.  It was legal, and good business for
the sellers, though it left the Palestinians who worked the land
in a poor situation.
>
>It is interesting though that you acknowledge that the
>palestinians were shafted. Do many Israelis or Jews share
>your opinion ?  Do you  absolve the purchaser from
>any ethical commitments just because it wasn't written down?
I don't know if others share this opinion.  It is mine,
and I'm sure there are some who agree and some who don't
The way I see it, the fallahin were caught in circumstances
beyond their control, in that since they didn't own the land,
they didn't have a say. Of course, now for the sake of the "greater
Arab unity" the Arabs are angry that the land was sold to the Jews
(an act that is illegal in Jordan), but when it happened, it was just
business.
>
>All told, I did not see an answer in your response. The
>question was whether the intent behind the purchase was
>aimed at controlling the public assets (land,
>infra-structure etc...). IMHO the Palestinians have grounds
>to contest the legality of the purchase, say in world court.
>
>Sam
>
>       My opinions are my own and no one else's
The purpose of buying the land was to provide space and jobs for
Jewish immigrants.  In any case, no matter what the purpose,
the sales were legal, so I really don't see any grounds for
contesting them.
Amir
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly...
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Lines: 47
dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
Gannon, why don't you tell the readers of these newsgroups
how you hail Nazism on your BBS, and post long articles
claiming non-Whites are inferior?
# THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
The Museum is entirely funded by private donations, but don't
expect this fact to deter "Maynard".
BTW, Gannon's ideological fathers also had a passion for constructing
museums and collections, some of which served to educate the
public about the racial supremacy of the Aryans. One such
collection was that of skeletons, and there was no lack of these
around:
Letter from SS-Standartenfuehrer Sievers to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer
Dr. Brandt, November 2 1942
["Trial of the Major War Criminals", p. 520]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Comarade Brandt,
As you know, the Reichsfuehrer-SS has directed that
SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Prof. Dr. Hirt be supplied with everything
needed for his research work. For certain anthropological
researches - I already reported to the Reichsfuehrer-SS on
them - 150 skeletons of prisoners, or rather Jews, are
required, which are to be supplied by the KL Auschwitz.
However, the good Doctor needed some more items to complete his
research:
Testimony of Magnus Wochner, SS guard at the Natzweiler Concentration
Camp
["The Natzweiler Trial", Edited by Anthony M. Webb, p. 89]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
... I recall particularly one mass execution when about 90 prisoners
(60 men and 30 women), all Jews, were killed by gassing. This took
place, as far as I can remember, in spring 1944. In this case the
corpses were sent to Professor Hirt of the department of Anatomy in
Strasbourg.
-Danny Keren.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
Lines: 43
NNTP-Posting-Host: grl.isi.edu
In-reply-to: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET's message of 19 Apr 93 14:58:49 GMT
In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>
> In article <ARENS.93Apr13161407@grl.ISI.EDU> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal
> Arens) writes:
>
> >Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.
> > ........
>
> The problem if  transffering US government files about Yigal Arens
> and some other similar persons does or does not violate a federal
> or a local American law seemed to belong to some local american law
> forum  not to this forum.
> The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
> of those files.
> So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
> 1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?
I'm not aware that the US government considers me dangerous.  In any
case, that has nothing to do with the current case.  The claim against
the ADL is that it illegally obtained and disseminated information that
was gathered by state and/or federal agencies in the course of their
standard interaction with citizens such as myself.  By that I refer to
things such as: address and phone number, vehicle registration and
license information, photographs, etc.
> 2. Why does the ADL have an interest in that person ?
You should ask the ADL, if you want an authoritative answer.  My guess
is that they collected information on anyone who did or might engage in
political criticism of Israel.  I further believe that they did this as
agents of the Israeli government, or at least in agreement with them.
At least some of the information collected by the ADL was passed on to
Israeli officials.  In some cases it was used to influence, or attempt
to influence, people's access to jobs or public forums.  These matters
will be brought out as the court case unfolds, since California law
entitles people to compensation if such actions can be proven.  As my
previous posting shows, California law entitles people to compensation
even in the absence of any specific consequences -- just for the further
dissemination of certain types of private information about them.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
Lines: 184
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: grl.isi.edu
In-reply-to: backon@vms.huji.ac.il's message of 20 Apr 93 21:38:19 GMT
In article <1993Apr20.213819.664@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>
> In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
> >
> > 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
> > individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
> > identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
> > state secrets ?
>
>
> Apart from Mordechai Vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors, there
> was one other espionage case (the nutty professor at the Nes Ziona
> Biological Institute who was a K.G.B. mole) who was tried "in camera".
> I wouldn't exactly call it a state secret. The trial was simply tried
> behind closed doors. I hate to disappoint you but the United States
> has tried a number of espionage cases in camera.
At issue was not a trial behind closed doors, but arrest, trial and
imprisonment in complete secrecy.  This was appraently attempted in the
case of Vanunu and failed.  It has happened before, and there is reason
to believe it still goes on.
Read this:
From Ma'ariv, February 18 (possibly 28), 1992
PUBLICATION BAN
The State of Israel has never officially admitted that for many
years there have been in its prisons Israeli citizens who were
sentenced to long prison terms without either the fact of
their arrest or the crimes of which they were accused ever
being made public.
By Baruch Me'iri
All those involved in this matter politely refused my request, one way
or another: "Look, the subject is too delicate.  If I comment on it, I
will be implicitly admitting that it is true; If I mention a specific
case, even hint at it, I might be guilty of making public something
which may legally not be published".
The State of Israel has never officially admitted that for many years
there have been in its prisons Israeli citizens who were sentenced to
long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the
crimes of which they were accused ever being made public. More
precisely: A court ordered publication ban was placed on the fact of
their arrest, and later on their imprisonment.
In Israel of 1993, citizens are imprisoned without us, the citizens of
this country, knowing anything about it.  Not knowing anything about
the fact that one person or another were tried and thrown in prison,
for security offenses, in complete secrecy.
In the distant past -- for example during the days of the [Lavon - YA]
affair -- we heard about "the third man" being in prison.  But many
years have passed since then, and what existed then can today no
longer be found even in South American countries, or in the former
Communist countries.
But it appears that this is still possible in Israel of 1993.
The Chair of the Knesset Committee on Law, the Constitution and
Justice, MK David Zucker, sent a letter on this subject early this
week to the Prime Minister, the Minister of Justice, and the Cabinet
Legal Advisor.  Ma'ariv has obtained the content of the letter:
"During the past several years a number of Israeli citizens have been
imprisoned for various periods for security offenses.  In some of
these cases a legal publication ban was imposed not only on the
specifics of the crimes for which the prisoners were convicted, but
even on the mere fact of their imprisonment.  In those cases, after
being legally convicted, the prisoners spend their term in prison
without public awareness either of the imprisonment or of the
prisoner", asserts MK Zucker.
On the other hand Zucker agrees in his letter that, "There is
absolutely no question that it is possible, and in some cases it is
imperative, that a publication ban be imposed on the specifics of
security offenses and the course of trials.  But even in such cases
the Court must weigh carefully and deliberately the circumstances
under which a trial will not be held in public.
"However, one must ask whether the imposition of a publication ban on
the mere fact of a person's arrest, and on the name of a person
sentenced to prison, is justified and appropriate in the State of
Israel.  The principle of public trial and the right of the public to
know are not consistent with the disappearance of a person from public
sight and his descent into the abyss of prison."
Zucker thus decided to turn to the Prime Minister, the Minister of
Justice and the Cabinet Legal Advisor and request that they consider
the question.  "The State of Israel is strong enough to withstand the
cost incurred by abiding by the principle of public punishment.  The
State of Israel cannot be allowed to have prisoners whose detention
and its cause is kept secret", wrote Zucker.
The legal counsel of the Civil Rights Union, Attorney Mordechai
Shiffman said that, "We, as the Civil Rights Union, do not know of any
cases of security prisoners, Citizens of Israel, who are imprisoned,
and whose imprisonment cannot be made public.  This is a situation
which, if it actually exists, is definitely unhealthy.  Just like
censorship is an unhealthy matter".
"The Union is aware", says Shiffman, "of cases where notification of a
suspect's arrest to family members and lawyers is withheld.  I am
speaking only of several days.  I know also of cases where a detainee
was not allowed to meet with an attorney -- sometimes for the whole
first month of arrest.  That is done because of the great secrecy.
"The suspect himself, his family, his lawyer -- or even a journalist --
can challenge the publication ban in court.  But there are cases where
the family members themselves are not interested in publicity.  The
journalist knows nothing of the arrest, and so almost everyone is
happy..."
Attorney Yossi Arnon, an official of the Bar, claims that given the
laws as they exist in Israel today, a situation where the arrest of a
person for security offenses is kept secret is definitely possible.
"Nothing is easier.  The court orders a publication ban, and that's
that.  Someone who has committed security offenses can spend long
years in prison without us knowing anything about it."
-- Do you find this situation acceptable?
Attorney Arnon: "Definitely not.  We live in a democratic country, and
such a state of affairs is impermissible.  I am well aware that
publication can be damaging -- from the standpoint of security -- but
total non-publication, silence, is unacceptable. Consider the trial of
Mordechai Vanunu: at least in his case we know that he was charged
with aggravated espionage and sentenced to 18 years in prison.  The
trial was held behind closed doors, nobody knew the details except for
those who were authorized to.  It is somehow possible to understand,
though not to accept, the reasons, but, as I have noted, we at least
are aware of his imprisonment."
-- Why is the matter actually that serious?  Can't we trust the
discretion of the court?
Attorney Arnon: "The judges have no choice but to trust the
presentations made to them. The judges do not have the tools to
investigate.  This gives the government enormous power, power which
they can misuse."
-- And what if there really is a security issue?
Attorney Arnon: "I am a man of the legal system, not a security expert.
Democracy stands in opposition to security.  I believe it is possible
to publicize the matter of the arrest and the charges -- without
entering into detail.  We have already seen how the laws concerning
publication bans can be misused, in the case of the Rachel Heller
murder.  A suspect in the murder was held for many months without the
matter being made public."
Attorney Shiffman, on the other hand, believes that state security can
be a legitimate reason for prohibiting publication of a suspect's
arrest, or of a convicted criminal's imprisonment.  "A healthy
situation?  Definitely not.  But I am aware of the fact that mere
publication may be harmful to state security".
A different opinion is expressed by attorney Uri Shtendal, former
advisor for Arab affairs to Prime Ministers Levi Eshkol and Golda
Meir.  "Clearly, we are speaking of isolated special cases.  Such
situations contrast with the principle that a judicial proceeding must
be held in public. No doubt this contradicts the principle of freedom
of expression.  Definitely also to the principle of individual freedom
which is also harmed by the prohibition of publication.
"Nevertheless", adds Shtendal, "the legislator allowed for the
possibility of such a ban, to accommodate special cases where the
damage possible as a consequence of publication is greater than that
which may follow from an abridgment of the principles I've mentioned.
The authority to decide such matters of publication does not rest with
the Prime Minister or the security services, but with the court, which
we may rest assured will authorize a publication ban only if it has
been convinced of its need beyond a shadow of a doubt."
Nevertheless, attorney Shtendal agrees: "As a rule, clearly such a
phenomenon is undesirable. Such an extreme step must be taken only in
the most extreme circumstances."
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal
Nntp-Posting-Host: dzoo.ch.apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 33
In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
>
>
>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>---------------------------------------------------------- by
>			  Elias Davidsson
>
>Having stated my assumptions, I will now state my proposal.
>
>1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
>for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
>and the other Palestinian-Arab.
...
>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
Sounds just like a racial theory that Hitler outlined in Mein Kampf.
>Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: BB Confessions.
Nntp-Posting-Host: supergas
Reply-To: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Lines: 25
In article <1993Apr18.022218.17318@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:
>
>But the irony is that the Jewish population has no problem in electing
>a leader who has CONFESSED  to having an extra marrital affair.
>
>This is a first.
>
>AA.
The American people didn't have any problem with it too (Clinton). Actually I
think that it does not make any difference as long as they have the
qualifications to become leaders. BTW in my political view I hope  (and should be
the Arab hope too) that Binyamin Netanyahu will not be ellected as prime minister
of Israel.
Naftaly
----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2
Keywords: effective Greek & Armenian postings
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 36
In article <93332@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a
KAAN,TIMUCIN) wrote:
[KAAN] Who the hell is this guy David Davidian. I think he talks too much..
I am your alter-ego!
[KAAN] Yo , DAVID you would better shut the f... up.. O.K ??
No, its' not OK! What are you going to do? Come and get me?
[KAAN]  I don't like your attitute. You are full of lies and shit.
In the United States we refer to it as Freedom of Speech. If you don't like
what I write either prove me wrong, shut up, or simply fade away!
[KAAN] Didn't you hear the saying "DON'T MESS WITH A TURC!!"...
No. Why do you ask? What are you going to do? Are you going to submit me to
bodily harm? Are you going to kill me? Are you going to torture me?
[KAAN] See ya in hell..
Wrong again!
[KAAN] Timucin.
All I did was to translate a few lines from Turkish into English. If it was
so embarrassing in Turkish, it shouldn't have been written in the first place!
Don't kill the messenger!
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: pgf5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Hamas methods of Murder
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 9
If anyone gets the New York Times, the Edit page has a transcript
of a VHS from Hams describing their methods of torture and
execution. I will post it later on.
From: zbib@bnr.ca (Sam Zbib)
Subject: Legality of the Jewish Purchase (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bcarh1fa
Reply-To: zbib@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Lines: 134
Adam Shostack writes:
> Sam Zbib writes
>>I'm surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
>>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
>>state, as a hostile action leading to war.
>	It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
> exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
> 400 000 arab citizens.
Could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of
Israel right after it was formed.
> 	And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
> action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
> to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
> is not a hostile action leading to war.
No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
anti-trust in the business world.
Since we are debating the legality of a commercial
transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines
and ethics of such transactions. Basic ANTI-TRUST law says
that, while you can purchase IBM stocks for the purpose of
investing, you can not acquire a large number of those
shares with the intent or controlling IBM. You can do so
only if you make your intentions CLEAR apriori . Clearly,
the Jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some
designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate.
They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.
The palastenians sold their properties to the Jews in the
old tradition of arab hospitality. Being a multi-ethnic /
multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours
was no different, just another religion. Plus they paid fair
market value, etc... They did not know they were victims of
an international conspiracy. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist
myself, but this one is hard to dismiss).
>>As to whether the Jews wanted to live in peace, maybe.
>>However they wanted and still want an exclusively Jewish
>>state, where Jews are in control and Jews are the masters of
>>the land.  Living in peace is meaningless unless it means
>>living *WITH* someone else, as equal. For a native arab, this
>>does not leave many options.
>	Oh, you mean like both Jews and Arabs being citizens?  The
>arabs who stayed are now citizens, with as much right to choose who
>they vote for as the Jews.
Again Adam, the devil is in the details. I don't want to get
on a tangent here but its the same reasonning that says its
OK to return 100 deportes and leave the rest. Because 100 is
a nice number that you can devide by 10, 100 and besides, it
has an integer square root.
>>Those palestinians who stayed, actually stayed despite of what
>>happened, and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless
>>and ineffective minority.
>>If I were wrong, you'd have Israel recall all the
>>palestinian refugees (we're talking millions). After all,
>>they are civilians.
>	Huh?  The people who left, did so voluntarily.  There is no
>reason for Israel to let them in.
Do you actually believe this? My experience tells me that
every palestinian I knew still keeps the key to his home, in
Palestine. Besides they often refer to their exodus as an
escape from hell (so to speak). I know none that agrees with
you. Did you sample their opinions? I know you don't care,
just being rethorical.
>>Israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it
>>had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid
>>flowing).
>	Israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...It
>still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained.  And how
>is granting citizenship a facade?
Don't get me wrong. I beleive that Israel is democratic
within the constraints of one dominant ethnic group (Jews).
Israel probably had a few options after 1948: ethnic
cleansing Serbian style, and deserve the wrath of the
international community, or make the best out of a no win
condition: show the world how good Israel is towards the
'bad' arabs. Personaly, I've never heard anything about the
arab community in Isreal. Except that they're there.  So
yes, they're there. But as a community with history and
roots, its dead.
>>	Tell me something, Sam.  What makes land "arab?"
>How shall I explain, Its a contract between the man and the
>land.  Control isn't it. The Ottomans ruled 400 years, and
>then left with barely a trace.  The concept of Land identity
>is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic West.  It is
>partly the concept of 'le sol natal', native soil.  I know
>that jews had previous history in the region, but none in
>recent memory.  I'm talking everyday life not archeology.
>	Try again, you tell me what its isn't, but you fail to
> establish what it is.
>	Also, Jews did have history in Israel for over a thousand
>years.  There were lots of Jews slaughtered by Crusaders in Israel.
>There was a thriving community in Gaza city from roughly 1200-1500.
>Jews were a majority in Jerusalem from 1870 or so onwards.  Does that
>make the land Jewish?
I stand corrected. I meant that the jewish culture was not
predominant in Palestine in recent history. I have no
problem with Jerusalem having a jewish character if it were
predominantly Jewish. So there. what to make of the rest
Palestine?
> Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
--
Sam Zbib                                         Bell-Northern Research
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bitnet/Internet: zbib@bnr.ca                    VOICE:  (613) 763-5889
FAX:    (613) 763-2626
Surface Mail: Stop 162, P.O.Box 3511, Station C, Ottawa, Canada, K1Y 4H7
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions are my own and no one else's
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian admission to the crime of Turkish Genocide.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 34
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages).
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 19 (first paragraph)
"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same
fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."
p. 130 (third paragraph)
"The city was a scene of confusion and terror. During the early days of
the war, when the Russian troops invaded Turkey, large numbers of the
Turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the Russian
advance."
p. 181 (first paragraph)
"The Tartar villages were in ruins."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian slaughter of more than 600,000 Kurdish people in 1915.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 21
Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.
"When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster
of 1914, their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular
Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey. One of
these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a blood-thirsty adventurer.
These Armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses, more
than six hundred thousand Kurds being killed between 1915 and 1916 in
the eastern vilayets of Turkey."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Their eyes gouged out by fascist Armenians: Armenian Barbarism.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 31
Atrocity Reports Horrify Azerbaijan :
"Azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles
away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off...
'Women and children had been scalped,' said Assad Faradzev, an aide to
Karabagh's Azeri governor.  Azeri television showed pictures of one
truckload of bodies brought to the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their
faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out."
Brian Killen (Reuters)
The Washington Times, 3/3/92
Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabagh, Moldova:
"Journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some
of the civilians, and Azerbaijani officials said Armenians began shooting
at them when they sought to recover the bodies."
Fred Hiatt
The Washington Post, 3/3/92
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The Armenians were fascist: Historical Armenian Fascism.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 47
The Armenians were deeply anti-semitic as well. In the May 10, 1936
edition of 'Hairenik Weekly' the vice-mayor of Bucharest, Rumania is
quoted as saying:
"The Armenians helped us not to become the slaves of the Jewish
elements in our country."
In another edition, an author named Captain George Haig writes:
"And the type of Jew who is imported to Palestine...is not anything
to be proud about. Their loose morals, and other vices were
unknown to the Arabs prior to Balfour Declaration, on top of
all communist activities were the cause of most of the Arab
criticism."[1]
As Uzun exposed, the Armenians were fascist. Before Pearl Harbor,
the Dashnak daily 'Hairenik' (not to be confused with the Tzeghagrons
'Hairenik Weekly') expressed pro-Nazi sentiments:
"And came Adolf Hitler, after herculean struggles. He spoke
to the racial heart strings of the German, opened the
fountain of his national genius, strock down the spirit
of defeatism...At no period since the World War had Berlin
conducted so realistic, well organized, and planned policy
as now, since Hitler's assumption to power...And whatever
others may think concerning Hitlerism and Fascism as a
system of Government, it is proved that they have revitalized
and regenerated the two states, Germany and Italy."[2]
[1] Captain George Haig, 'The Case of Palestine,' in Hairenik
Weekly, Friday, September 25, 1936.
[2] 'Hairenik,' official organ of the Dashnaktsuitune, Sept.
17, 1936; quoted in John Roy Carlson, 'The Armenian Displaced
Persons' (see endnote 1), p. 21.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 159
>In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu
(Brad Hernlem) writes:
>|>
>|> In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu
(Tim Clock) writes:
>|>
>|> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover,
>|> Israel should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with
>|> attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the
>|> other respects innocent lives?
> Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are
> using civilians for cover,
"Assuming"? Also: come on, Brad. If we are going to get anywhere in
this (or any) discussion, it doesn't help to bring up elements I never
addressed, *nor commented on in any way*. I made no comment on who is
"right" or who is "wrong", only that civilians ARE being used as cover
and that, having been placed "in between" the Israelis and the guerillas,
they *will* be injured as both parties continue their fight.
[The *purpose* of an army's use of military uniforms
is *to set its members apart* from the civilians so that
civilians will not be thought of by the other side as
"combatants". So, what do you think is the "meaning behind",
the intention and the effect when an "army" purposely
*does not were uniforms but goes out of its way to *look
like civilians'? *They are judging that the benefit they will
receive from this "cover" is more important that the harm
that will come to civilians.*
This is a comment on the Israeli experience and is saying
that the guerillas *do* have some responsibility in putting civilians
in "the middle" of this fight. By putting on uniforms and living apart
from civilians (barracks, etc.), the guerillas would significantly lower
the risk to civilians.
But if the guerillas do this aren't *they* putting themselves
at greater risk? Absolutely, they ask themselves "why set
ourselves apart (by wearing uniforms) when there is a ready-made
cover for us (civilians)? That makes sense from their point of
view, BUT when this cover is used, the guerillas should accept
some of the responsibility for subsequent harm to civilians.
> If the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why
> is it further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why
> not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there
> is more to the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION...
> "GETTING BACK"..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the
> villages. The least it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli
> government for the lives of civilians.
I agree with you here. I have always thought that Israel's bombing
sortees and bombing policy is stupid, thoughtless, inhumane AND
ineffective. BUT, there is no reason that Israel should passive wait
until attackers chose to act; there is every reason to believe that
"taking the fight *to* the enemy" will do more to stop attacks.
As I said previously, Israel spent several decades "sitting passively"
on its side of a border and only acting to stop these attacks *after*
the attackers had entered Israeli territory. It didn't work very well.
The "host" Arab state did little/nothing to try and stop these attacks
from its side of the border with Israel so the number of attacks
were considerably higher, as was their physical and psychological impact
on the civilians caught in their path.
>
>|> What?So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states
>|> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
>|> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the
>|> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their
>|> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
>|> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of
>|> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
>|>
> If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
> no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks.
This is just another "selectively applied" statement.
The reason for this drawn-out impasse between Ababs/Palestinians and Israelis
is that NEITHER side is willing to accept the Word of the other. By your
criteria *everyone* should stay away from the negotiations.
That is precisely why the Palestinians (in their recent PISGA proposal for
the "interim" period after negotiations and leading up to full autonomy) are
demanding conditions that essentially define "autonomy" already. They DO
NOT trust that Israel will "follow through" the entire process and allow
Palestinians to reach full autonomy.
Do you understand and accept this viewpoint by the Palestinians?
If you do, then why should Israel's view of Arabs/Palestinians
be any different? Why should they trust the Arab/Palestinians' words?
Since they don't, they are VERY reluctant to give up "tangible assets
(land, control of areas) in exchange for "words". For this reason,
they are also concerned about the sorts of "guarantees" they will have
that the Arabs WILL follow through on their part of any agreement reached.
>
>But don't you see that the same statement can be made both ways?
>If Lebanon was interested in peace then it should accept the word
>of Israel that the attacks were the cause for war and disarming the
>Hizbollah will remove the cause for its continued occupancy.
Absolutely, so are the Arabs/Palestinians asking FIRST for the
Israelis "word" in relation to any agreement? NO, what is being
demanded FIRST is LAND. When the issue is LAND, and one party
finally gets HOLD of this "land", what the "other party" does
is totally irrelevent. If I NOW have possession of this land,
your words have absolutely no power; whether Israel chooses to
keeps its word does NOT get the land back.
>Afterall, Israel has already staged two parts of the withdrawal from
>areas it occupied in Lebanon during SLG.
>
> Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
> disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
> not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
> Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son.
While the "major armaments" (those allowing people to wage "civil wars")
have been removed, the weapons needed to cross-border attacks still
remain to some extent. Rocket attacks still continue, and "commando"
raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard
for human life (yours of that of others). Such attacks also continue.
> Of course, if Israel would withdraw from Lebanon
> and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
> make the Lebanese so mad as to do that.
Bat guano. The situation you call for existed in the 1970s and attacks
were commonplace.
>Furthermore, with Hezbollah subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.
There is NO WAY these groups can be effectively "disarmed" UNLESS the state
is as authoritarian is Syria's. The only other way is for Lebanon to take
it upon itself to constantly patrol the entire border with Israel, essentially
mirroring Israel's border secirity on its side. It HAS TO PROVE TO ISREAL that
it is this committed to protecting Israel from attack from Lebanese territory.
>
>|> Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain
>|> control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.
>|>
> Tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the Syrian border?
> Not lately, eh?
That's what I said, ok? But, doesn't that mean that Syria has to "take over"
Lebanon? I don't think Israel or Lebanon would like that.
>
What both "sides" need is to receive something "tangible". The Arabs/
Palestinians are looking for "land" and demanding that they receive it
prior to giving anything to Israel. Israel has two problems: 1) if it
gives up real *land* it IS exposing itself to a changed geostrategic
situation (and that change doesn't help Israel's position), and 2) WHEN
it gives up this land IT NEEDS to receive something in return to
compensate for the increased risks
Tim
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 25
In article <Apr16.182858.51611@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>
>[.....]
>
>|> Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
>|> selectively naive.
>
>Oooh... now THAT hurts.  I will not suffer you through more naive
>and one-sided views of mine.   Please skip my articles in the future
>Oh Wise Tim, and have a good day.
>
>Basil
What is the point in throwing out one-sided viewpoints (which means:
ignoring that the "other side's" perspective and experience HAS ANY
LEGITIMACY) while assuming that "your side" possesses no faults and
bears no responbility for ANY of the negative impacts of a particular
event? Isn't the former onesided? Isn't the latter naive? If you feel
that my opinion is wrong then please tell me how. "Strategic withdrawal"
under the cover of a snide remark seems to be the favored tactic on this
net but doesn't accomplish anything.
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
Nntp-Posting-Host: supergas
Reply-To: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Lines: 104
THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
(Following is a transcript of a recruitment and training
videotape made last summer by the Qassam Battalions, the military
arm of Hamas, an Islamic Palestinian group. Hamas figures
significantly in the Middle East equation. In December, Israel
deported more than 400 Palestinians to Lebanon in response to
Hamas's kidnapping and execution of an Israeli soldier. A longer
version appears in the May issue of Harper's Magazine, which
obtained and translated the tape.)
My name is Yasir Hammad al-Hassan Ali. I live in Nuseirat [a
refugee camp in the Gaza Strip]. I was born in 1964. I finished
high school, then attended Gaza Polytechnic. Later, I went to work
for Islamic University in Gaza as a clerk. I'm married and I have
two daughters.
The Qassam Battalions are the only group in Palestine
explicitly dedicated to jihad [holy war]. Our primary concern is
Palestinians who collaborate with the enemy. Many young men and
women have fallen prey to the cunning traps laid by the [Israeli]
Security Services.
Since our enemies are trying to obliterate our nation,
cooperation with them is clearly a terrible crime. Our most
important objective must be to put an end to the plague of
collaboration. To do so, we abduct collaborators, intimidate and
interrogate them in order to uncover other collaborators and expose
the methods that the enemy uses to lure Palestinians into
collaboration in the first place. In addition to that, naturally,
we confront the problem of collaborators by executing them.
We don't execute every collaborator. After all, about 70
percent of them are innocent victims, tricked or black-mailed into
their misdeeds. The decision whether to execute a collaborator is
based on the seriousness of his crimes. If, like many
collaborators, he has been recruited as an agent of the Israeli
Border Guard then it is imperative that he be executed at once.
He's as dangerous as an Israeli soldier, so we treat him like an
Israeli soldier.
There's another group of collaborators who perform an even
more loathsome role -- the ones who help the enemy trap young men
and women in blackmail schemes that force them to become
collaborators. I regard the "isqat" [the process by which a
Palestinians is blackmailed into collaboration] of single person as
greater crime than the killing of a demonstrator. If someone is
guilty of causing repeated cases of isqat, than it is our religious
duty to execute him.
A third group of collaborators is responsible for the
distribution of narcotics. They work on direct orders from the
Security Services to distribute drugs as widely as possible. Their
victims become addicted and soon find it unbearable to quit and
impossible to afford more. They collaborate in order to get the
drugs they crave. The dealers must also be executed.
In the battalions, we have developed a very careful method of
uncovering collaborators, We can't afford to abduct an innocent
person, because once we seize a person his reputation is tarnished
forever. We will abduct and interrogate a collaborator only after
evidence of his guilt has been established -- never before. If
after interrogation the collaborator is found guilty beyond any
doubt, then he is executed.
In many cases, we don't have to make our evidence against
collaborators public, because everyone knows that they're guilty.
But when the public isn't aware that a certain individual is a
collaborator, and we accuse him, people are bound to ask for
evidence. Many people will proclaim his innocence, so there must be
irrefutable proof before he is executed. This proof is usually
obtained in the form of a confession.
At first, every collaborator denies his crimes. So we start
off by showing the collaborator the testimony against him. We tell
him that he still has a chance to serve his people, even in the
last moment of his life, by confessing and giving us the
information we need.
We say that we know his repentance in sincere and that he has
been a victim. That kind of talk is convincing. Most of them
confess after that. Others hold out; in those cases, we apply
pressure, both psychological and physical. Then the holdouts
confess as well.
Only one collaborator has ever been executed without an
interrogation. In that case, the collaborator had been seen working
for the Border Guard since before the intifada, and he himself
confessed his involvement to a friend, who disclosed the
information to us. In addition, three members of his network of
collaborators told us that he had caused their isqat. With this
much evidence, there was no need to interrogate him. But we are
very careful to avoid wrongful executions. In every case, our
principal is the same: the accused should be interrogated until he
himself confesses his crimes.
A few weeks ago, we sat down and complied a list of
collaborators to decide whether there were any who could be
executed without interrogation. An although we had hundreds of
names, still, because of our fear of God and of hell, we could not
mark any of these men, except for the one I just mentioned, for
execution.
When we execute a collaborator in public, we use a gun. But
after we abduct and interrogate a collaborator, we can't shoot him
-- to do so might give away our locations. That's why collaborators
are strangled. Sometimes we ask the collaborator, "What do you
think? How should we execute you?" One collaborator told us,
"Strangle me." He hated the sight of blood.
-----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press. Madness.
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500342:000:6673
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 16 16:49:00 1993
Lines: 130
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press. Madness.
/* Written  4:34 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press. Madness." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.
Paper: Zman Tel Aviv (Tel Aviv's time). Friday local Tel Aviv's
paper, affiliated with Maariv.
Date: 19 February 1993
Journalist: Guy Ehrlich
Subject: Interview with soldiers who served in the Duvdevan
(Cherry) units, which disguise themselves as Arabs and operate
within the occupied territories.
Excerpts from the article:
"A lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as
Arabs, things good and bad, some of the falsehoods. But the most
important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with. It is
that everyone who serves in the Cherry, after a time goes in one
way or another insane".
A man who said this, who will here be called Danny (his full name
is known to the editors) served in the Cherry. After his discharge
from the army he works as delivery boy. His pal, who will here be
called Dudu was also serving in the Cherry, and is now about to
depart for a round-the-world tour. They both look no different
from average Israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript
service. But in their souls, one can notice something completely
different....It was not easy for them to come out with disclosures
about what happened to them. And they think that to most of their
fellows from the Cherry it woundn't be easy either. Yet after they
began to talk, it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking.
The following article will contain all the horror stories
recounted with an appalling openness.
(...) A short time ago I was in command of a veteran team, in
which some of the fellows applied for release from the Cherry. We
called such soldiers H.I. 'Hit by the Intifada'. Under my command
was a soldier who talked to himself non-stop, which is a common
phenomenon in the Cherry. I sent him to a psychiatrist. But why I
should talk about others when I myself feel quite insane ? On
Fridays, when I come home, my parents know I cannot be talked to
until I go to the beach, surf a little, calm down and return. The
keys of my father's car must be ready for in advance, so that I
can go there. I they dare talk to me before, or whenever I don't
want them to talk to me, I just grab a chair and smash it
instantly. I know it is my nerve:  Smashing chairs all the time
and then running away from home, to the car and to the beach. Only
there I become normal.(...)
(...) Another friday I was eating a lunch prepared by my mother.
It was an omelette of sorts. She took the risk of sitting next to
me and talking to me. I then told my mother about an event which
was still fresh in my mind. I told her how I shot an Arab, and how
exactly his wound looked like when I went to inspect it. She began
to laugh hysterically. I wanted her to cry, and she dared laugh
straight in my face instead ! So I told her how my pal had made a
mincemeat of the two Arabs who were preparing the Molotov
cocktails. He shot them down, hitting them beautifully, exactly as
they deserved. One bullet had set a Molotov cocktail on fire, with
the effect that the Arab was burning all over, just beautifully. I
was delighted to see it.  My pal fired three bullets, two at the
Arab with the Molotov cocktail, and the third at his chum. It hit
him straight in his ass. We both felt that we'd pulled off
something.
Next I told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts
in the belly of another Arab and how all of us ran toward that
spot to take a look. I reached the spot first. And then that Arab,
blood gushing forth from his body, spits at me. I yelled: 'Shut
up' and he dared talk back to me in Hebrew! So I just laughed
straight in his face. I am usually laughing when I stare at
something convulsing right before my eyes. Then I told him: 'All
right, wait a moment'. I left him in order to take a look at
another wounded Arab. I asked a soldier if that Arab could be
saved, if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the
help of a stone of something else like that. I keep telling all
this to my mother, with details, and she keeps laughing straight
into my face. This infuriated me. I got very angry, because I felt
I was becoming mad. So I stopped eating, seized the plate with he
omelette and some trimmings still on, and at once threw it over
her head. Only then she stopped laughing. At first she didn't know
what to say.
(...) But I must tell you of a still other madness which falls
upon us frequently. I went with a friend to practice shooting on a
field. A gull appeared right in the middle of the field. My friend
shot it at once. Then we noticed four deer standing high up on the
hill above us. My friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it.
We enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock. We shot down two
deer more and went to take a look. When we climbed the rocks we
saw a young deer, badly wounded by our bullet, but still trying to
such some milk from its already dead mother. We carefully
inspected two paths, covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of
the two deer we had hit. We were just delighted by that sight. We
had hit'em so good ! Then we decided to kill the young deer too,
so as spare it further suffering. I approached, took out my
revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short
distance. When you shoot straight at the head you actually see the
bullets sinking in.  But my fifth bullet made its brains fall
outside onto the ground, with the effect of splattering lots of
blood straight on us. This made us feel cured of the spurt of our
madness. Standing there soaked with blood, we felt we were like
beasts of prey. We couldn't explain what had happened to us. We
were almost in tears while walking down from that hill, and we
felt the whole day very badly.
(...) We always go back to places we carried out assignments in.
This is why we can see them. When you see a guy you disabled, may
be for the rest of his life, you feel you got power. You feel
Godlike of sorts."
(...) Both Danny and Dudu contemplate at least at this moment
studying the acting. Dudu is not willing to work in any
security-linked occupation. Danny feels the exact opposite. 'Why
shouldn't I take advantage of the skills I have mastered so well ?
Why shouldn't I earn $3.000 for each chopped head I would deliver
while being a mercenary in South Africa ? This kind of job suits
me perfectly. I have no human emotions any more. If I get a
reasonable salary I will have no problem to board a plane to
Bosnia in order to fight there."
Transl. by Israel Shahak.
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press: Nazi methods.
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500343:000:3194
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 16 16:50:00 1993
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From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press: Nazi methods.
/* Written  4:38 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press: Nazi methods." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS
Newspaper: Ha'aretz Date: 14 February1993 Author: Gideon Levi
Subject: NAZI methods in Gaza
Title: In the neighborhood of Hope, among the rubble
(Excerpts)
Mahmoud Jowara'r stared at me long and sadly: "I worked my entire
life in order to built that house and this is what is left". Only
TV could transmit the full sadness of his face. "You say that we
teach our children to hate you, but what do you expect to happen
to a child who sees this ?" And once again he wraps himself in a
lengthy silence, his face crumbling into weeping. Mahmoud stood in
the field of rubble that was once his home. The term
'dispossession' has an absolute meaning here. Nothing is left of
what he accumulated during his entire life, only the rubble of a
house and shreds of belongings.
Once again Khan Yunis. Once again demolished homes. Last Thursday
there was a search for wanted people here. Once again the IDF
forces employed the new method, fired and bombed and shot missiles
and placed explosives. Already three times during the past weeks I
have gone out to see the destruction and each time I was more
horrifying scenes. This time they hit the largest number of
houses, 17 according to the IDF estimate, ten of them completely
demolished. But not only that:  the method has also become more
brutal. Three weeks ago, in Tufah neighborhood in Gaza, the
residents were still told to remove their valuables from their
homes.  This time the army skipped that part; three weeks ago the
handcuffed men, inhabitants of the demolished homes, were supplied
with some water and one apple during the 12 hours they had to
stand. This time there was only water. Three weeks ago they were
even allowed to go out to the toilet. This time the soldier just
gold them: Piss and shit in your pants. And thus, last Thursday,
some 45 men stood for about 12 hours, their hands bound behind
their backs, their eyes blindfolded, without food, with wet pants
on their legs and a terrible feeling of humiliation in their
hearts, listening to the sounds of the explosions destroying their
homes, one after the other.
(...)
Dr. Juma'a Fuad Said al-Rubi. the brother from Saudi Arabia,
emerges from among the ruins. Ten days ago he arrived for a family
visit, mainly in order to celebrate the housewarming with his
father and brothers. On Thursday he was handcuffed like everyone
else for 12 hours, and later went with everyone to view the
destrucion. He tried to explain that he was a visitor and that he
is a physician, but only got a shove.  Like all the rest he also
urinated in his pants, while standing with his hands bound and his
eyes blindfolded for the entire day. Juma'a al-Rubi studied
medicine at Cairo University, and for ten years he has been
treating wealthy Saudis in Medina. His wife and four children
remained there. Now his documents have been lost and he does not
know how he will return to them. "There is no humanity", stated
the physician from Saudi Arabia.
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press. TORTURE.
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500344:000:3833
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From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press. TORTURE.
/* Written  4:41 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press. TORTURE." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.
Newspaper: Ma'ariv Date: 18. December 1992 Author: Avi Raz
Subject: Torture
Title of article: Moderate physical pressure
Several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation
room in Tulkarm prison, during which he says he was humiliated,
beaten and tortured, Omar Daoud Jaber heard his interrogator, a
Shabak agent 'Captain Louis', chatting on the phone with his wife.
"At those moments", Omar said, "I felt that he was like a
humanbeing, but right after he finished talking, he would be beat
me and say, 'You listened to the conversation and enjoyed
yourself' and I understood that he was not really a human being".
In late October 1992, after 38 days in detention at Tulkarm
prison, Omar Jaber was released without charges. "Among the Jews,
as among the Arabs, there are good people and bad people", he said
after his release, "but there, in Tulkarm, in the interrogations
rooms, you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that
he is a human being". Although he left the detention installation
in Tulkarm bruised and humiliated ("I sat at home for ten days. My
hands shook from nerves"), one may consider Omar Jaber lucky: He
got out, not so healthy, but entire, and even ultimately returned
to normal functioning, at the small solar heater plant he owns.
In contrast, Hassan Bader al-Zbeidi, for example, was released
seven weeks ago from detention in Tulkarm after 33 days in the
Shabak wing, cut off from his surroundings. He doesn't speak or
react. Mustafa Barakat, aged only 23, who was arrested in early
August and was brought to the Tulkarm detention installation, left
it one day later - dead. "We have recently received an especially
large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at
the Tulkarm detention installation by Shabak interrogators", noted
Dr. Niv Gordon, director of the Association of Israel and
Palestinian Physicians for Human Rights. (...)
The right to complain against the Shabak does not excite Anan
Saber Makhlouf, a 20 year old student. In fact, he was extremely
fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated
in Tulkarm prison, in case the publication in the paper would
return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment.
(...follow description of tortures....)
Omar, a tall bearded man, was silent. "I do not want to talk about
it", he finally said, quietly. Some time later, embarrased and
ashamed, he spoke: "Sometimes he beats you and beats you until
you'll kiss his hand, and not only his hand. Even the hands of
another interrogator, and another, whom he calls into the room,
and the last interrogator says:" Now you are kissing my hand, and
later if I want, you will kiss my ass."
These things take place in an Israeli army detention installation,
located within the military government compound in Tulkarm (West
Bank). But the Shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom. In
early March the IDF allowed representatives of B'Tselem, the
Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Territories, to
visit Tulkarm prison, but denied them access to the interrogation
wing. "The interrogation wing is Shabak property, being solely
under Shabak responsibility. All interrogations are performed by
it", said Lieutnant Sharon Sho'an, the commander of the
installation, according to the internal report written by B'tselem
member, Yuval Ginbar, following the visit. Major David Pe'er,
governing commander of the prison system in the Central Command,
was quoted in the report:  "There is an ethical problem here - no
one can enter the interrogation wing".
Transl. by I. Shahak
From: Howard Frederick <hfrederick@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Turkish Government Agents on UseNet
Nf-ID: #R:1993Apr15.204512.11971@urartu.sd:1238805668:cdp:1483500341:000:1042
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!hfrederick    Apr 16 14:31:00 1993
Lines: 20
I don't know anything about this particular case, but *other*
governments have been known to follow events on the Usenet.  For
example after Tienanmien Square in Beijing the Chinese government
began monitoring cyberspace.  As the former Director of PeaceNet,
I am aware of many incidents of local, state, national and
international authorities monitoring Usenet and other conferences
such as those on the Institute for Global Communications.  But
what's the big deal?  You shouldn't advocate illegal acts in this
medium in any case.  If you are concerned about being monitored,
you should use encyrption software (available in IGC's "micro"
conference).  I know for a fact that human rights activists in the
Balkan-Mideast area use encryption software to send out their
reports to international organizations.  Such message *can* be
decoded however by large computers consuming much CPU time, which
probably the Turkish government doesn't have access to.
Howard Frederick, University of California, Irvine Department of
Politics and Society
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press. Short notes.
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500345:000:1466
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 16 16:51:00 1993
Lines: 39
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press. Short notes.
/* Written  4:43 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press. Short notes." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS
Hadashot, 14 March 1993:
The Israeli Police Department announced on the evening of Friday,
March 12 that it is calling upon [Jewish] Israeli citizens with
gun permits to carry them at all times "so as to contribute to
their security and that of their surroundings".
Ha'aretz, 15 March 1993:
Yehoshua Matza (Likud), Chair of the Knesset Interior Committee,
stated that he intends to demand that the police department make
it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills
[non-Jewish] terrorists will not be put on trial.
Ha'aretz, 16 March1993:
Today a private security firm and units from the IDF Southern
Command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the Gaza
strip, as an additional stage in the upgrading of security
measures in the Strip.
The gates will aid in the searching of [non-Jewish] Gaza residents
as they leave for work in Israel. They can be used to reveal the
presence of knives, axes, weapons and other sharp objects.
In addition to the gates, which will be operated by a private
civilian company, large quantities of magnetic-card reading
devices are being brought to the inspection points, to facilitate
the reading of the magnetic cards these [non-Jewish] workers must
carry.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 39
In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>Most of the
>people in my village are regular inhabitants that go about their daily
>business, some work in the fields, some own small shops, others are
>older men that go to the coffe shop and drink coffee.  Is that so hard to
>imagine ????
...quickly followed by...
>SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
>the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not
>know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
>suspect who they are and what they are up to.
This is the standard method for claiming non-combatant status, even
for the commanders of combat.
>These young men are
>supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
>ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
>for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
>by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
>of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.
"Innocent civilians"???  Like the ones who set up the booby traps or
engaged in shoot-outs with soldiers or attack them with grenades or
axes?
>We are now accustomed to Israeli tactics, and we figure that this is
And the rest of the world is getting used to Arab tactics of claiming
innocence for even the most guilty of the vile murderers among them.
Keep it up long enough and it will backfire but good.
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 15
In article <1qmr5qINN5af@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>The Litani river flows in a west-southwestern direction and indeed does
>not run through the buffer zone.  The Hasbani does flow into the Jordan
>but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write, there has been
>no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to
>climatic changes in rainfall.
What did you have to go and bring THAT up for?  Now they're going to
say that Israel is stealing the RAIN, too....
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 13
In article <1993Apr14.224726.15612@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>Jake Livni writes
>> Sam Zbib writes
[all deleted...]
Sam Zbib's posting is so confused and nonsensical as not to warrant a
reasoned response.  We're getting used to this, too.
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
The comparison of the Palestinian situation with the Holocaust
is insulting and completely false.  Any person making such a rude
and false comparison is either ignorant of the Holocaust, or also
ignorant of the situation in the mideast, or is an anti-semite.
To compare a complicated political situation with the genocide
of 6,000,000 Jews is racist in and of itself.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 8
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
As someone who reads Israeli newpapaers every day, I can state
with absolute certainty, that anybody who relies on western media
to get a picture of what is happening in Israel is not getting an
accurate picture.  There is tremendous bias in those stories that
do get reported.  And the stories that NEVER get mentioned create
a completely false picture of the mideast.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 7
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
How many of you readers know anything about Jews living in the
Arab countries?  How many of you know if Jews still live in these
countries?  How many of you know what the circumstances of Arabic
Jews leaving their homelands were?  Just curious.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 227
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
Center for Policy Research writes...
>Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?
>
>
>Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
>------------------------------------
>
>While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
>repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
>attempt to starve the Gazans.
Your comparison with the Warsaw Ghetto uprising is insulting,
and racist beyond belief.  The attempts to quiet any violence
in the Gaza Strip are just that.  The efforts to quell murder
and mayhem in the Gaza strip were the resluts of violence and
came AFTER the violence.  It was not an arbitrary racial move
like the nazi treatment of Jews.  Jews had NOT committed acts
of violence and murder as have the residents of Gaza.  I find
your eagerness to ignore the acts of murder nothing more than
anti-Israel bigotry.
>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>strip and seek work in Israel.
It is NOT punishment, but protection from repeated attacks by
residents of Gaza.  You self-servingly omit any references to
WHY Israel has had to take action.  Apparaently the deaths of
innocent Israeli civilians do not enter into your equation, a
racist ommission on your part.
>While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
>Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
>the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
>Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.
>
>The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
>recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
>justice. A population denied basic human rights is entitled to
>rise up against its tormentors.
The right of Israel to protect its citizens from murderers is
also recognized by international law.  Israeli civilians have
been getting stabbed to death on a daily basis.  If this wave
of murder does not matter to you, then your posturing for the
basic human rights you claim matter so much to you is nothing
but an anti-Israel charade.
>As is known, the Israeli regime is considering Gazans unworthy of
>Israeli citizenship and equal rights in Israel, although they are
>considered worthy to do the dirty work in Israeli hotels, shops
>and fields.
Do you know of residents of Gaza who have applied for Israeli
citizenship and were denied?  I have heard of no such denials
taking place.  Can you document this, or is this more of your
stupid and innacurate propaganda?  The truth is that if Gazan
residents applied for citizenship, HAMAS would murder them as
collaborators.
Many Gazans are born in towns and villages located in
>Israel. They may not live there, for these areas are reserved for
>the Master Race.
How dare you use such a disgusting phrase.  How very easy you
attack a people, when you omit facts which fly in the face of
your pure racism.  Perhaps you are judging a people to be the
racists that you are.  Do you believe that all Jews must have
the same bigoted makeup as you?
Here's another little fly in your ointment, about the 'master
race,' for you to avoid...
Two months ago a plane with 86 Bosnian Muslims left Bosnia to
seek asylum in the middle east.  Four Arab nations refused to
grant them asylum.  Then when Israli Arabs agreed to take the
responsibility for them, they were allowed into Israel.  Yes,
Israel.  But when the plane landed, the Israeli Arabs who had
previously agreed to take care of them refused to be involved
with the rescue project, because they felt that it would make
Israel look good.  It was more important to avoid any good PR
for Israel than to take care of fellow Muslims.  Israel moved
them to a kibbutz, where they are safe and secure.  The truth
is that time after time the Islamic world has turned its back
on Muslims in need more than Israel has.  Even in the case of
the 400 deportees, Lebanon was willing to let their so-called
Arab brothers freeze to death rather than give them sanctuary
in Lebanon.
Nearly twice as many Palestinians have been murdered by other
Palestinians than in confrontations with Israel.  Hundreds of
thousands of Palestinians had been deported from Kuwait, just
because they were Palestinian.  The truth is that your phoney
concern for the welfare of the Palestinians is nothing but an
excuse to attack Israel.  You are part of the ignorant effort
to confine all concern for the welfare of the Palestinians to
attacking Israel.  But the truth is there are greater reasons
than Israel for the plight of the Palestinians.  To disregard
Jordan or Kuwait or Saudi Arabia or any of the other oil-rich
nations who do nothing for these people, is to use the plight
of these poor people as a vehicle for your hatred of Jews, or
your hatred of Israel.  Anti-semitism and anti-Zionism is NOT
the same as pro-Palestinian and anyone who insists that it is
the same really does not give two hoots for their welfare.
>The Nazi regime accorded to the residents of the Warsaw ghetto the
>right to self- administration.  They selected Jews to pacify the
>occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. Some
>Jewish collaborators were killed. Israel also wishes to rule over
>Gaza through Arab collaborators.
Your pathetic analogy is so absent of relevant fact that your
racism cannot be disguised.  Jews had never declared war on a
Polish people.  Jews had never attacked Poles with knives, or
had used the Ghetto as a staging ground for attacks.  To take
something like the Warsaw Ghetto(the creation of which you do
not even bother to discuss!)and the uprising that followed is
to degrade the dead, and to show that intelligent debate on a
difficult situation is beyond your intellectual purview.  You
clearly have never even read a single word of the Covenant of
the Islamic Resistance Movement.  Here is arguably the single
most anti-semitic genocidal document since Mein Kampf, yet it
is totally disregarded in your rantings.  Your racism is most
evident in your eagerness to avoid such documentation.  If it
were considered, you might actually have to deal with mideast
problems in a balanced manner, rather than in an anti-semitic
manner.
>As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
>with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
>Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
>self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
>society does not consider Gazans full human beings.
And just how was Gaza obtained?  Do you forget that Israel is
not in the habit of grabbing land for the hell of it, but had
taken Gaza in a war that it did not start?  Did you know land
Israel captures in wars, wars which other nations have ALWAYS
started, aren't the same as Israel, and they are subject to a
completely different set of international laws?  Since you do
continuously refer to international law, would you please say
what specific international laws Israel is violating?
This attitude
>is consistent with the attitude of the Nazis towards Jews.
I can cite 6,000,000 reasons why it is not.
>                                                             The
>current policies by the Israeli government of cutting off Gaza are
>consistent with the wish publicly expressed by Prime Mininister
>Yitzhak Rabin that 'Gaza sink into the sea'.
Where is this quote?  I have never heard Rabin assert that he
wished such a thing.  Since you are in general a liar, you'll
have to provide the entire quote, with source, or this effort
will be regarded as just another one of your fabrications.
>                                           One is led to ask
>oneself whether Israeli leaders entertain still more sinister
>goals towards the Gazans ? Whether they have some Final Solution
>up their sleeve ?
Only you are led to ask such a loaded, racist, intellectually
dishonest question.  You inability to come to terms with what
you are has turned you into a racist of the highest order.
>I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
>they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
>political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.
Why do you not feel the same compassion for the Jews of Iran,
or Iraq, or Yemen, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria?  Do you have an
inkling of what they have endured over the past decades?  Or,
what about the plight of the Palestinians in Kuwait?  Or what
about the treatment of the Bosnian Muslims?  Do you think the
residents of Gaza are being subjected to what all the Muslims
in Bosnia are enduring?  Why are you indifferent to the death
and suffering of people?  Why do you not care that these folk
are being exterminated?  Why do you not care that only Israel
has given any of these people safe haven?  Could it be due to
the fact that it is not Israel who is doing the killing?  The
people in Gaza are not being exterminated.  They aren't being
killed.  They aren't being raped.  They aren't being starved.
They aren't being driven from their lands.  They are not kept
from receiving food or other supplies.  But the Bosnians are.
And the ONLY country which has provided some sanctuary to the
Bosnian Muslims is the same nation that you have devoted your
life to attacking, in the guise of compassion.
Your rantings are so unfettered by the burden of intellectual
honesty that you ought to take a deep breath and ask yourself
what your real motives are.  Do not flatter yourself into the
belief that truth or compassion are what drives you.  In your
case, it is clear that hate beats out love every time.  Maybe
you are burdened with some kind of guilt for having been born
a Jew.  It is obvious that your hatred of your own Judaism is
being dumped on all other Jews.  Why else would you suggest a
racist idea like breeding Jews out of existence?  Maybe these
fits of anti-semitism are a result of being cut off from your
own people for an extended period.  Whatever the case may be,
it is clear that you are not what you have labored so hard to
appear to be.  When you realize that you can't care for other
people while you hate yourself you might actually begin to do
some good.
But for now, you are a fruad.
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Hamza Salah, the Humanist
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Lines: 13
cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
# Well said Mr. Beyer :)
He-he. The great humanist speaks. One has to read Mr. Salah's posters,
in which he decribes Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps
promising the "final battle" between Muslims and Jews (in which the
stons and the trees will "cry for the Muslims to come and kill the
Jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about Jews dying from heart
attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved.
-Danny Keren.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 8
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
Mr. Salah, why are you such a homicidal racist?  Do you feel this
same hatred towards Christans, or is it only Jews?  Are you from
a family of racists?  Did you learn this racism in your home?  Or
are you a self-made bigot?  How does one become such a racist?  I
wonder what you think your racism will accomplish.  Are you under
the impression that your racism will help bring peace in the mid-
east?  I would like to know your thoughts on this.
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 30
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu
In a previous article, ai843@yfn.ysu.edu (Ishaq S. Azzam) says:
>
>In a previous article, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) says:
>
>>
>>   How many of you readers know anything about Jews living in the
>>Arab countries?  How many of you know if Jews still live in these
>>countries?  How many of you know what the circumstances of Arabic
>>Jews leaving their homelands were?  Just curious.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I thought there are no jews live in Arab countries, didn't hey move
>all to Palestine?  "Only the happy jews did not move!!"
>
>Would you tell me which Arab country is prohipiting the Jews from
>migrating to Palestine?
the last arab country was syria. but not all of them
migrated due to the jewish state economical and
securital dilemma!
>
--
___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
(______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin
In-Reply-To: aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA's message of Fri, 23 Apr 1993 18:48:15 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Brown University
Lines: 44
In article <martinb.735590895@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA> aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Aurag Hassan) writes:
Are you trying to say that there were no massacres in Deir Yassin
or in Sabra and Shatila? If so then let me tell you some good jokes:
There is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in WWII
Palestinians just did what Davidians did for fourty years and more.
In fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place.
People die that is all. No one gets killed.
Maybe also vietamiese didn't die in Vietnam war killed by american
napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that's all.
Maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there.they
may be thought it was like snifing cocaine. No?
What do you think of this ? Isn't it stupid to say so?
Well it is as stupid as what you said .Next time you want to lie do it
intelligently.
Sincerely yours.
Hassan
Arab civilians did die at Dir yassin. But there was no massacre. First
of all, the village housed many *armed* troops. Secondly, the Irgun
and Stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians.
The village was attacked only for its military significance. In fact,
a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before
the attack was to begin.
By all rational standards, Dir Yassin was not a massacre. The killing
was unintentional. The village housed Arab snipers and Arab troops.
Thus it was attacked for its military significance. It was not
attacked with intentions of killing any civilians.
To even compare Dir Yassin, in which some 120 or so Arabs died, to the
Holocaust is absurd. The Irgun did not want to kill any civilians. The
village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived.
Harry.
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Dir Yassin
In-Reply-To: aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA's message of Fri, 23 Apr 1993 18:48:15 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Brown University
Lines: 34
From _Myths and Facts_, by Leonard J. Davis, Near East Research Inc.,
1989:
[pp. 108-109]
"Unlike the PLO's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets, the
100 troups from the Irgun and Stern group that struck at Deir Yassin
on April 10, 1948, targeted the village for its military importance.
Deir Yassin was on the road to Jerusalem, which the Arabs had
blockaded, and it housed Iraqi troups and Palestinian irregulars.
Snipers based in Deir Yassin were a constant threat to Jewish citizens
in Jerusalem.
"Arab civilians were killed at Deir Yassin, but that attack does
not conform to the propaganda picture that the Arabs have tried to
paint. The number of Arabs killed was generally reported to be about
250. In 1983, however, Eric Silver of _The Guardian_ (Britain)
interviewed a survivor, Mophammed Sammour, who testified that 116 out
of a population of 800-1000 were killed. 'About three days after the
massacre,' Sammour explained, 'representatives of each of the five
clans in Deir Yassin met at the Moslem offices in Jerusalem and made a
list of the people who had not been found (alive). We went through the
names.  Nothing has happend since 1948 to make me think this figure
was wrong.'
"Unlike the PLO's deliberate attacks on civilians, the killing of
civilians at Deir Yassin was not premeditated. The attackers left open
an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left
unharmed. After the remaining Arabs feigned surrender and then fired
on the Jewish troops, some of the attackers killed Arab soldiers and
civilians indiscriminately. Independent observers told _The Guardian_
that among the bodies they found Arab men disguised as women."
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?
In-Reply-To: Center for Policy Research's message of 23 Apr 93 15:10 PDT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Brown University
Lines: 30
In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
------------------------------------
While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
attempt to starve the Gazans.
[...]
Elias should the families of the children who were stabbed in their
high school by a Palestinian "freedom fighter" be the ones who offer
their help to the Gazans. Perhaps it should be the families of the 18
Israelis who were murdered last month by Palestinian "freedom
fighters".
The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.
Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.
You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.
Harry.
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Zionism
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 24
The following flyer was distributed at AIPAC's 34th annual Policy Conference:
Because when we're not in Israel, we're told to go back where we came from and
when we come back to Israel we're told to go back to where we came from and
when we're vocal we have too much influence and when we are quiet we can afford
to be because we we control everything anyway and when we buy something we can
afford to because Jews are so rich and when we don't buy something it's because
we're cheap and because when we are poor we're called dirty Jew and ignorant
and when we're not we're called called rich Jew and JAP and when we are visibly
organized it's because there is a secret Jewish conspiracy and when we're not it
is because there is a secret Jewish conspiracy and because we're told we're not
a people and when we say we are we're still told that we're not and when we
marry our own people we're called racist and we don't we're contaminating
someone else's "race" and because we're under fire from the Left and from the
Right and because there are whites who hate us for not being white and because
there are non-whites who hate us for being white  and because anti-semitic
incidents are rising every year but we're told that anti-semitism doesn't
exist or that we're paranoid and because we're told to shut up about the
Holocaust and yet Holocaust revisionism is risng every year and when we are
"obnoxious" we're called JAPs and when we are "nice" we're told we don't act
Jewish and because anti-semitism is now world-wide and because our people is
not yet free and because we do not have to complete the work but neither are
we free to desist from it for these reasons and many many more we are part of
the Jewish National Liberation Movement: ZIONISM.
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Method employed by the Armenians in 'Genocide of the Muslim People'.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 28
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages).
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 133 (first paragraph)
"In this movement we took with us three thousand Turkish soldiers who
had been captured by the Russians and left on our hands when the Russians
abandoned the struggle. During our retreat to Karaklis two thousand of
these poor devils were cruelly put to death. I was sickened by the
brutality displayed, but could not make any effective protest. Some,
mercifully, were shot. Many of them were burned to death. The method
employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut, and then after
crowding the hut with Turks, set fire to the straw."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The scenario and genocide staged by the Armenians 78 years ago.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 72
The scenario and genocide staged by the Armenians 78 years ago in
x-Soviet Armenia is being reenacted again - this time in Azerbaijan.
The stories of survivors of Karabag massacre are in 'Milliyet' today.
69 year old Hatin Nine telling:
-''My Twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. They told
me: We won't kill you. But the babies have to die in front of your eyes.''
72 year old Huseyin Ibrahimoglu:
- ''Our Turkish village in Khojalu Town was blown up in two hours.
While killing children and babies mercilessly they said: You are
Turks, you must die.''
28 year old Gulsum Huseyin:
- ''They bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of
my eyes.''
Are these stories lies? Have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming?
Were these stories forged by Turkish journalists in the region?
The nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of British
Journalists, too. Two days before we had quoted from a Sunday Times
article. They[British] reported the events in Karabag even before
Turkish journalists. What is more here are the pictures. Pictures
of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off.
Even the Armenian Radio couldn't claim these "lies." They are saying
"exaggeration." That means ''somethings'' have happened but the
situation is not as bad as reported. Perhaps that village of Khojalu
town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... Or Gulsum Huseyin's
3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach...
The massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. The effects of
this massacre on Karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word.
Some of the western press', led by some French Newspapers, ability
to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre.
Yesterday we gave samples from Le Figaro. Until yesterday's print
no news about the real events in Karabag were printed. So were the
French TV channels.. The subject they considered related to Karabag
was ''The necessity of protecting Armenians against Azeri attacks.''
The age we are living in is termed a human rights age. There are lots
of organizations such as United Nations and CSCE(Conference on Security
and Cooperation in Europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human
rights violations. International reactions must be made with international
cooperation. With support of everybody and every organization claiming
to be civilized.
Could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the
right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? Where
is the cooperation? Where are the reactions? And the intellectuals,
journalists, writers, TV stations of certain western countries such
as France who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?"
Where are you?
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: It was an 'encore' performance staged by the Armenians during WWI.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 47
In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi
concentration camps, the Nazi Armenians in Germany formed the first
Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion
had grown into eight battalions of 20,000-strong under the command of Dro
(the butcher) who is the architect of the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5
million Turks and Kurds between 1914-1920. An Armenian National Council
was formed by the notorious Dashnak Party leaders in Berlin, which was
recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged by this, the Armenians summarily
formed a provisional government that endorsed and espoused fully the
principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the members of the
Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of extermination
of the Jews.
This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Turks by colluding with the invading Russian army.
Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923)
(287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 184 (second paragraph)
"I had received further very definite information of horrors that
had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as
I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their
treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from
Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not
be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their
troops being without discipline and not under effective control,
atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should
with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Let the Turks speak for themselves.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 95
In article <1993Apr16.142935.535@cs.yale.edu> karage@scus1.ctstateu.edu (Angelos Karageorgiou) writes:
>	If Turks in Greece were so badly mistreated how come they
>elected two,m not one but two, representatives in the Greek government?
Pardon me?
"Greece Government Rail-Roads Two Turkish Ethnic Deputies"
While World Human Rights Organizations Scream, Greeks
Persistently Work on Removing the Parliamentary Immunity
of Dr. Sadik Ahmet and Mr. Ahmet Faikoglu.
Dr. Sadik Ahmet, Turkish Ethnic Member of Greek Parliament, Visits US
Washington DC, July 7- Doctor Sadik Ahmet, one of the two ethnic
Turkish members of the Greek parliament visited US on june 24 through
July 5th and held meetings with human rights organizations and
high-level US officials in Washington DC and New York.
At his press conference at the National Press Club in Washington DC,
Sadik Ahmet explained the plight of ethnic Turks in Greece and stated
six demands from Greek government.
Ahmet said "our only hope in Greece is the pressure generated from
Western capitals for insisting that Greece respects the human rights.
What we are having done to ethnic Turks in Greece is exactly the same
as South African Apartheid." He added: "What we are facing is pure
Greek hatred and racial discrimination."
Spelling out the demands of the Turkish ethnic community in Greece
he said "We want the restoration of Greek citizenship of 544 ethnic
Turks. Their citizenship was revoked by using the excuse that this
people have stayed out of Greece for too long. They are Greek citizens
and are residing in Greece, even one of them is actively serving in
the Greek army. Besides, other non-Turkish citizens of Greece are
not subject to this kind of interpretation at an extent that many of
Greek-Americans have Greek citizenship and they permanently live in
the United States."
"We want guarantee for Turkish minority's equal rights. We want Greek
government to accept the Turkish minority and grant us our civil rights.
Our people are waiting since 25 years to get driving licenses. The Greek
government is not granting building permits to Turks for renovating
our buildings or building new ones. If your name is Turkish, you are
not hired to the government offices."
"Furthermore, we want Greek government to give us equal opportunity
in business. They do not grant licenses so we can participate in the
economic life of Greece. In my case, they denied me a medical license
necessary for practicing surgery in Greek hospitals despite the fact
that I have finished a Greek medical school and followed all the
necessary steps in my career."
"We want freedom of expression for ethnic Turks. We are not allowed
to call ourselves Turks. I myself have been subject of a number of
law suits and even have been imprisoned just because I called myself
a Turk."
"We also want Greek government to provide freedom of religion."
In separate interview with The Turkish Times, Dr. Sadik Ahmet stated
that the conditions of ethnic Turks are deplorable and in the eyes of
Greek laws, ethnic Greeks are more equal than ethnic Turks. As an example,
he said there are about 20,000 telephone subscribers in Selanik (Thessaloniki)
and only about 800 of them are Turks. That is not because Turks do not
want to have telephone services at their home and businesses. He said
that Greek government changed the election law just to keep him out
of the parliament as an independent representative and they stated
this fact openly to him. While there is no minimum qualification
requirement for parties in terms of receiving at least 3% of the votes,
they imposed this requirement for the independent parties, including
the Turkish candidates.
Ahmet was born in a small village at Gumulcine (Komotini), Greece 1947.
He earned his medical degree at University of Thessaloniki in 1974.
he served in the Greek military as an infantryman.
In 1985 he got involved with community affairs for the first time
by collecting 15,000 signatures to protest the unjust implementation
of laws against ethnic Turks. In 1986, he was arrested by the police
for collecting signatures.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Role of 'SDPA.ORG' in slaughter of Gunduz, Ariyak, Arikan, Benler,...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 107
In article <1993Apr16.044001.15540@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org  writes:
>Sure it is. It tells us how far right the whole Turkish political spectrum
Nobody ever exposed your crimes like that before? What was your personal
role in the murder of Orhan Gunduz and Kemal Arikan, again? How many more
Muslims will be slaughtered by 'SDPA.ORG' as publicly declared and filed
with legal authorities? Please spell it out for us.
"...that more people have to die..."
SDPA <91@urartu.UUCP>
"Yes, I stated this and stand by it."
SDPA <255@urartu.UUCP>
January 28, 1982 - Los Angeles
Kemal Arikan is slaughtered by two Armenians while driving to work.
March 22, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
Prelude to grisly murder. A gift and import shop belonging to
Orhan Gunduz is blown up. Gunduz receives an ultimatum: Either
he gives up his honorary position or he will be "executed". He
refuses. "Responsibility" is claimed by JCAG and SDPA.
May 4, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
Orhan Gunduz, the Turkish honorary consul in Boston, would not bow
to the Armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of
"honorary consul". Now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood.
President Reagan orders an all-out manhunt-to no avail. An eye-
witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down.  He
survives... but falls silent. One of the most revolting "triumphs" in
the senseless, mindless history of Armenian terrorism. Such a murder
brings absolutely nothing - except an ego boost for the murderer
within the Armenian terrorist underworld, which is already wallowing
in self-satisfaction.
Were you involved in the murder of Sarik Ariyak?
December 17, 1980 - Sydney
Two Nazi Armenians massacre Sarik Ariyak and his bodyguard, Engin
Sever. JCAG and SDPA claim responsibility.
It is public knowledge that the founder of the Marxist-Leninist terrorist
organization, the ASALA (an integral part of ASALA/SDPA/ARF), Hagop
Hagopian, began his notorious career as a member of the terrorist
group which perpetrated the massacre of the Israeli athletes at the
Munich Olympics in 1972. And the 'Armenian Foundation' stole from the
children of Turkiye to fund the criminal activities of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF
terrorists in their cold-blooded murder of defenceless Turkish and
Kurdish people.
THE ARMENIAN FOUNDATION PROVIDED 30 BILLION TL TO ASALA
01/09/92, MILLIYET-- The Armenian Foundation based in
Istanbul is found to have provided 30 billion Turkish Lira ($6
million) to the Armenian terrorist organization ASALA which have
murdered several Turkish diplomats abroad...
Experts on international terrorism assert that the Armenian terrorists
use proceeds from drug trafficking (and from the Armenian Foundation)
to fund their deadly enterprises. The deadliest of terrorist assassins,
Carlos, proclaimed on Spanish television that his organization had
entered into a working relationship with Armenian terrorists and they
are using drug trafficking to raise money 'to continue' to slaughter
innocent people. Now, what is your personal and organizational role
in this scheme?
Recent reports which have been confirmed by the U.S. Administration,
indicate that Armenian terrorist organizations are collaborating with
those who are responsible for the bombing of the United States Marine
barracks in Beirut. You won't be able to get away with your crimes
forever; the justice is long overdue.
As for the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people between
1914 and 1920:
Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
"Document No: 42," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 110, Drawer
No: 1(4), File No: 373, Section No: 1484(1032), Contents No: 9, 9-1.
(To the Office of Acting Supreme Commander - Acting Assistant
Section Director Major Ali Sukru)
"It is sufficient to mention just some of the terrible and shameful crimes
committed only in Erzurum to get an idea about the Armenian atrocities
in the villages...
I would also like to mention with disgust and abominable sight, a stain
on humanity, that I encountered at the west of Hasankale while my regiment
was proceeding into this town. There was a young Turkish women, apparently
once a very beautiful one, lying dead on one side of the road. A huge
stick had been inserted into her vagina. We took the corpses and left it
at a spot that was invisible from the road..."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 28
In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>|
>|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>|> >
>Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
>disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
>not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
>Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. Of course, if Israel would withdraw
>from Lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
>make the Lebanese so mad as to do that. Furthermore, with Hezbollah
>subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.
Just to address this one point, what about the two Katyusha rocket
attacks made within Lebanon, for which Fatah claimed responsibility.
I didn't realize that one can use Katyushas while onr is disarmed.
Also, Page 8 of today's New York Times, Faisal Saleh, a high ranking
Fatah official, and his 9 month old son were gunned down in Beirut
by members of Abu Nidal.  There have been 46 assasination attempts
in 1993 alone in the fued between these two factions, resulting in
11 deaths.
Amir
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Kol Israel Broacasts
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 9
In article <1993Apr16.174056.13368@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin) writes:
>Does anyone have a schedule of Kol Israel broadcasts in different
>languages that could be posted or e-mailed to me. Your
>assistance would be greatly appreciated
>
>GF
Try thr rec.radio.shortwave newsgroup.
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: FORGED POSTING -- FORGED POSTING -- FORGED POSTING
Summary: usually generated by those who can't live with themselves!
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 37
THE FOLLOWING POSTING WAS FORGED IN MY NAME! PLEASE IGNORE SUCH POSTINGS!
[FORGED] Newsgroups:soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.
[FORGED] soviet,soc.culture.greek
[FORGED] From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
[FORGED] News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
[FORGED] Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
[FORGED] Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 21:36:00 GMT
[FORGED] Lines: 293
[FORGED]
[FORGED] Dear friends,
[FORGED]
[FORGED] I am a graduate student in Education at the University of Tennessee.
[FORGED]
.
.
.
[FORGED]
[FORGED]
[FORGED]                         __QUESTIONNAIRE__
[FORGED]                  Teaching Music for deaf children.
[FORGED]
[FORGED] NAME ________________________________
[FORGED] ADDRESS/ E-MAIL _____________________
[FORGED] EMPLOYING INSTITUTION _______________
[FORGED] YEARS OF EXPERIENCE_________ GRADE LEVEL(S)____
[FORGED] EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND:BACHELOR__ MASTERS__ DOCTORATE__
[FORGED] PROFESSIONAL FIELD:SPECIAL EDUC.__  MUSIC EDUC.__ OTHER*__
THE ABOVE POSTING WAS FORGED IN MY NAME! PLEASE IGNORE SUCH POSTINGS!
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida
Lines: 19
dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
> He-he. The great humanist speaks. One has to read Mr. Salah's posters,
> in which he decribes Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps
> promising the "final battle" between Muslims and Jews (in which the
> stons and the trees will "cry for the Muslims to come and kill the
> Jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about Jews dying from heart
> attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved.
>
> -Danny Keren.
----------
Don't worry, Danny, every blatantly violent and abusive posting made by
Hamzah is immediately forwarded to the operator of the system in which he
has an account.  I'd imagine they have quite a file started on this
fruitcake--and have already indicated that they have rules governing
racist and threatening use of their resources.  I'd imagine he'll be out
of our hair in a short while.
Todd
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 4
I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Subject: Re: Binyamin Netanyahu on CNN tonight.
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver
Lines: 24
In article <1993Apr15.152424.5899@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil.Idriss:) writes:
>
>Arab leaders don't have to cheat, they are actually allowed to have four wives.
>Are you implying above that Arab leaders are gays? Aren't there Jewish gays too?
Arab leaders are now following by Islamic rules?  (Or is it only applicable
in cases like this?)  :-
I remember an article of about a year ago which stated that besides his wife,
Saddam also has a mistress.  Assad's brother has a wife and *several*
mistresses, and those 'emirs' in the Gulf have, within their lifetimes,
wives in the double digitas (only they manage to keep four at a time).
This is all irrelevant.  It takes a *lot* more than infidelity to make these
leaders ruthless and corrupt.  Maybe Netanyahu thought he could 'cleanse'
himself by making such a public confession.  Does the average secular Israeli
care, though?  The Mossad probably applauded him.  :-)
..     ..      ..     .
__.    _       _     . .
(_/|___(_|__|__(_|___(_:_)
..
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 19
ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
If you consider Israeli reporting of events in Israel to be propoganda, then
consider the Washington Post's handling of American events to be propoganda
too.  What makes the Israeli press inherently biased in your opinion?  I
wouldn't compare it to Nazi propoganda either.  Unless you want to provide
some evidence of Israeli inaccuracies or parallels to Nazism, I suggest you
keep your mouth shut.  I'm sick and tired of all you anti-semites comparing
Israel to the Nazis (and yes, in my opinion, if you compare Israel to the Nazis
you are an anti-semite because you know damn well it isn't true and you are
just trying to discredit Israel).
Ed.
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 18
In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or
Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn?
Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? The only way
to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
Tim
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: After all, Armenians exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people there.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 297
In article <C5y56o.A62@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian) writes:
>article.  I have no partisan interests --- I would just like to know
>what conversations between TerPetrosyan and Demirel sound like.  =)
Very simple.
"X-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide
against 2.5 million Muslims by admitting to the crime and making
reparations to the Turks and Kurds."
After all, your criminal grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim
people between 1914 and 1920.
<C5yyBt.5zo@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
>To which I say:
>Hear, hear.  Motion seconded.
You must be a new Armenian clown. You are counting on ASALA/SDPA/ARF
crooks and criminals to prove something for you? No wonder you are in
such a mess. That criminal idiot and 'its' forged/non-existent junk has
already been trashed out by Mutlu, Cosar, Akgun, Uludamar, Akman, Oflazer
and hundreds of people. Moreover, ASALA/SDPA/ARF criminals are responsible
for the massacre of the Turkish people that also prevent them from entering
Turkiye and TRNC. SDPA has yet to renounce its charter which specifically
calls for the second genocide of the Turkish people. This racist, barbarian
and criminal view has been touted by the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government
as merely a step on the road to said genocide.
Now where shall I begin?
#From: ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet)
#Subject: YALANCI, LIAR : DAVIDIAN
#Keywords: Davidian, the biggest liar
#Message-ID: <1991Jan10.122057.11613@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>
Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar:
>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Message-ID: <1154@urartu.SDPA.org>
>In article <1991Jan4.145955.4478@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ahmet@eecg.toronto.
>edu (Ahmet Parlakbilek) asked a simple question:
>[AP] I am asking you to show me one example in which mutlu,coras or any other
>[AP] Turk was proven to lie.I can show tens of lies and fabrications of
>[AP] Davidian, like changing quote , even changing name of a book, Anna.
>The obvious ridiculous "Armenians murdered 3 million Moslems" is the most
>outragious and unsubstantiated charge of all. You are obviously new on this
>net, so read the following sample -- not one, but three proven lies in one
>day!
>			- - - start yalanci.txt - - -
[some parts are deleted]
>In article <1990Aug5.142159.5773@cbnewsd.att.com> the usenet scribe for the
>Turkish Historical Society, hbm@cbnewsd.att.com (hasan.b.mutlu), continues to
>revise the history of the Armenian people. Let's witness the operational
>definition of a revisionist yalanci (or liar, in Turkish):
>[Yalanci] According to Leo:[1]
>[Yalanci]
>[Yalanci] "The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks
>[Yalanci] and on the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding
>[Yalanci] their own affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed,
>[Yalanci] the war was actually being waged between the Committee of
>[Yalanci] Dashnaktsutiun and the Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and
>[Yalanci] savage war in defense of party political interests. The Dashnaks
>[Yalanci] incited revolts which relied on Russian bayonets for their success."
>[Yalanci]
>[Yalanci] [1] L. Kuper, "Genocide: Its Political Use in the Twentieth Century,"
>[Yalanci]     New York 1981, p. 157.
>This text is available not only in most bookstores but in many libraries. On
>page 157 we find a discussion of related atrocities (which is title of the
>chapter). The topic on this page concerns itself with submissions to the Sub-
>Commission on Prevention of Discrimination of Minorities of the Commission on
>Human Rights of the United Nations with respect to the massacres in Cambodia.
>There is no mention of Turks nor Armenians as claimed above.
- - -
>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!
>The depth of foolishness the Turkish Historical Society engages in, while
>covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, is only surpassed by the
>ridiculous "historical" material publicly displayed!
>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.SDPA.org>  | The life of a people is a sea, and
Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and
what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book
was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book,
I could not find the original quota.
But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found
the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows:
> According to Leo:[1]
>"The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks and on
> the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding their own
> affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed, the war was
> actually being waged between the Committee of Dashnaktsutiun and the
> Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and savage war in defense of party
> political interests. The Dashnaks incited revolts which relied on Russian
> bayonets for their success."
>[1] B. A. Leo. "The Ideology of the Armenian Revolution in Turkey," vol II,
======================================================================
>    p. 157.
======
QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT !
DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU
JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR.
Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly...
You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow
you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided
not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise
all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least
we may save time by not dealing with your lies.
And for the following line:
>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!
I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you.
I hope you will be drowned in your lies.
Ahmet PARLAKBILEK
#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)
#Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu>
In article <1993Apr7.225058.12073@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Apr7.030636.7473@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
>(Vedat  Dogan) wrote in response to article <1993Mar31.141308.28476@urartu.
>11sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>
>[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
>[(*] Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923)
>[(*] (287 pages).
>
>[DD] Such a pile of garbage! First off, the above reference was first published
>[DD] in 1924 NOT 1923, and has 353 pages NOT 287! Second, upon checking page
>[DD] 178, we are asked to believe:
>
>[VD] No, Mr.Davidian ...
>
>[VD]  It was first published IN 1923 (I have the book on my desk,now!)
>[VD]                         ********
>
>[VD]  and furthermore,the book I have does not have 353 pages either, as you
>[VD]  claimed, Mr.Davidian..It has 377 pages..Any question?..
>
>Well, it seems YOUR book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the
n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]!
o boy!
Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not
like them!!!...because they really exist...why?
As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source
given by Serdar Argic ..
You couldn't reject it...
>
>In addition, the Author's Preface was written on January 15, 1923, BUT THE BOOK
>was published in 1924.
Here we go again..
In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give
the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively!
(Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of
pages, please ask by sct)
I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924)
What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in
the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your
groundless accussations, etc.
>
[...]
>
>[DD] I can provide .gif postings if required to verify my claim!
>
>[VD] what is new?
>
>I will post a .gif file, but I am not going go through the effort to show there
>is some Turkish modified re-publication of the book, like last time!
I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication)
and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published
in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you
are avoiding the real issues by twisting around..
Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication)
First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You
called Serdar Argic a liar!..
I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote...
(I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.)
And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book"
(without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..)..
(by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was
first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty
well suited theories', as usual)
And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who
wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number
and page numbers again for the library use, which are:
949.6 R 198
and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215
>
>It is not possible that [(*]'s text has 287 pages, mine has 353, and yours has
>377!
Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is
not possible..." ..If not, what is your point?
Differences in the number of pages?
Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934..
No need to use the same book size and the same letter
charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!!
The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year
first published..
And you tried to hide the whole point..
the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about
how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given
by Serdar Argic exist!!
It was the issue, wasn't-it?
you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway?
You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap"..
People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still
has so many "craps" in the 1993.
Any question?
<C5wwqA.9wL@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
>   Hmm ... Turks sure know how to keep track of deaths, but they seem to
>lose count around 1.5 million.
Well, apparently we have another son of Dro 'the Butcher' to contend with.
You should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on
distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel
that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum
you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to
another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact.
I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line,
lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan
to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is
nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in
x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship,
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel
free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists,
the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian
criminal organizations.
Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men,
women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and
those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.
Not a chance.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: After all, Armenians exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people there.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 297
In article <C5y56o.A62@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian) writes:
>article.  I have no partisan interests --- I would just like to know
>what conversations between TerPetrosyan and Demirel sound like.  =)
Very simple.
"X-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide
against 2.5 million Muslims by admitting to the crime and making
reparations to the Turks and Kurds."
After all, your criminal grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim
people between 1914 and 1920.
<C5yyBt.5zo@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
>To which I say:
>Hear, hear.  Motion seconded.
You must be a new 'Arromdian'. You are counting on ASALA/SDPA/ARF
crooks and criminals to prove something for you? No wonder you are in
such a mess. That criminal idiot and 'its' forged/non-existent junk has
already been trashed out by Mutlu, Cosar, Akgun, Uludamar, Akman, Oflazer
and hundreds of people. Moreover, ASALA/SDPA/ARF criminals are responsible
for the massacre of the Turkish people that also prevent them from entering
Turkiye and TRNC. SDPA has yet to renounce its charter which specifically
calls for the second genocide of the Turkish people. This racist, barbarian
and criminal view has been touted by the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government
as merely a step on the road to said genocide.
Now where shall I begin?
#From: ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet)
#Subject: YALANCI, LIAR : DAVIDIAN
#Keywords: Davidian, the biggest liar
#Message-ID: <1991Jan10.122057.11613@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>
Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar:
>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Message-ID: <1154@urartu.SDPA.org>
>In article <1991Jan4.145955.4478@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ahmet@eecg.toronto.
>edu (Ahmet Parlakbilek) asked a simple question:
>[AP] I am asking you to show me one example in which mutlu,coras or any other
>[AP] Turk was proven to lie.I can show tens of lies and fabrications of
>[AP] Davidian, like changing quote , even changing name of a book, Anna.
>The obvious ridiculous "Armenians murdered 3 million Moslems" is the most
>outragious and unsubstantiated charge of all. You are obviously new on this
>net, so read the following sample -- not one, but three proven lies in one
>day!
>			- - - start yalanci.txt - - -
[some parts are deleted]
>In article <1990Aug5.142159.5773@cbnewsd.att.com> the usenet scribe for the
>Turkish Historical Society, hbm@cbnewsd.att.com (hasan.b.mutlu), continues to
>revise the history of the Armenian people. Let's witness the operational
>definition of a revisionist yalanci (or liar, in Turkish):
>[Yalanci] According to Leo:[1]
>[Yalanci]
>[Yalanci] "The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks
>[Yalanci] and on the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding
>[Yalanci] their own affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed,
>[Yalanci] the war was actually being waged between the Committee of
>[Yalanci] Dashnaktsutiun and the Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and
>[Yalanci] savage war in defense of party political interests. The Dashnaks
>[Yalanci] incited revolts which relied on Russian bayonets for their success."
>[Yalanci]
>[Yalanci] [1] L. Kuper, "Genocide: Its Political Use in the Twentieth Century,"
>[Yalanci]     New York 1981, p. 157.
>This text is available not only in most bookstores but in many libraries. On
>page 157 we find a discussion of related atrocities (which is title of the
>chapter). The topic on this page concerns itself with submissions to the Sub-
>Commission on Prevention of Discrimination of Minorities of the Commission on
>Human Rights of the United Nations with respect to the massacres in Cambodia.
>There is no mention of Turks nor Armenians as claimed above.
- - -
>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!
>The depth of foolishness the Turkish Historical Society engages in, while
>covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, is only surpassed by the
>ridiculous "historical" material publicly displayed!
>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.SDPA.org>  | The life of a people is a sea, and
Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and
what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book
was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book,
I could not find the original quota.
But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found
the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows:
> According to Leo:[1]
>"The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks and on
> the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding their own
> affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed, the war was
> actually being waged between the Committee of Dashnaktsutiun and the
> Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and savage war in defense of party
> political interests. The Dashnaks incited revolts which relied on Russian
> bayonets for their success."
>[1] B. A. Leo. "The Ideology of the Armenian Revolution in Turkey," vol II,
======================================================================
>    p. 157.
======
QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT !
DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU
JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR.
Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly...
You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow
you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided
not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise
all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least
we may save time by not dealing with your lies.
And for the following line:
>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!
I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you.
I hope you will be drowned in your lies.
Ahmet PARLAKBILEK
#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)
#Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu>
In article <1993Apr7.225058.12073@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Apr7.030636.7473@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
>(Vedat  Dogan) wrote in response to article <1993Mar31.141308.28476@urartu.
>11sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>
>[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
>[(*] Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923)
>[(*] (287 pages).
>
>[DD] Such a pile of garbage! First off, the above reference was first published
>[DD] in 1924 NOT 1923, and has 353 pages NOT 287! Second, upon checking page
>[DD] 178, we are asked to believe:
>
>[VD] No, Mr.Davidian ...
>
>[VD]  It was first published IN 1923 (I have the book on my desk,now!)
>[VD]                         ********
>
>[VD]  and furthermore,the book I have does not have 353 pages either, as you
>[VD]  claimed, Mr.Davidian..It has 377 pages..Any question?..
>
>Well, it seems YOUR book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the
n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]!
o boy!
Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not
like them!!!...because they really exist...why?
As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source
given by Serdar Argic ..
You couldn't reject it...
>
>In addition, the Author's Preface was written on January 15, 1923, BUT THE BOOK
>was published in 1924.
Here we go again..
In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give
the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively!
(Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of
pages, please ask by sct)
I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924)
What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in
the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your
groundless accussations, etc.
>
[...]
>
>[DD] I can provide .gif postings if required to verify my claim!
>
>[VD] what is new?
>
>I will post a .gif file, but I am not going go through the effort to show there
>is some Turkish modified re-publication of the book, like last time!
I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication)
and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published
in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you
are avoiding the real issues by twisting around..
Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication)
First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You
called Serdar Argic a liar!..
I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote...
(I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.)
And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book"
(without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..)..
(by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was
first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty
well suited theories', as usual)
And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who
wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number
and page numbers again for the library use, which are:
949.6 R 198
and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215
>
>It is not possible that [(*]'s text has 287 pages, mine has 353, and yours has
>377!
Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is
not possible..." ..If not, what is your point?
Differences in the number of pages?
Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934..
No need to use the same book size and the same letter
charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!!
The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year
first published..
And you tried to hide the whole point..
the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about
how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given
by Serdar Argic exist!!
It was the issue, wasn't-it?
you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway?
You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap"..
People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still
has so many "craps" in the 1993.
Any question?
<C5wwqA.9wL@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
>   Hmm ... Turks sure know how to keep track of deaths, but they seem to
>lose count around 1.5 million.
Well, apparently we have another son of Dro 'the Butcher' to contend with.
You should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on
distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel
that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum
you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to
another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact.
I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line,
lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan
to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is
nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in
x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship,
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel
free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists,
the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian
criminal organizations.
Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men,
women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and
those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.
Not a chance.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Armenians will not get away with the genocide of Azeri people.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 47
In article <C5yxLE.4ov@cbfsb.cb.att.com> enis@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (enis.surensoy) writes:
>>From article <9304202021@zuma.UUCP>, by sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic):
>>Armenians will not get away with the genocide of 204,000 Azeri people.
>	On the contrary, Armenians will get away with the genocide of
>	204,000 Azeri people.
>	Armenians already got away with raping, torturing, and massacering
>	millions of innocent Moslem peoples of Eastern Anatolia.
Not this time, Enis. Furthermore, a new generation has risen - equipped
with a deep sense of commitment, politically mature and conscious, who
determinedly pursue the Turkish Cause, through all necessary means,
ranging from the political and diplomatic to the armed struggle. In
other words, what we have is a demand from the fascist government of
x-Soviet Armenia to redress the wrongs that were done against our
people.
"The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination
of the Muslim population in the Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag,
Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the
extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government
during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
(Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)
"Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide
perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Though his book was dealing with the Genocide of Muslims by Armenians..
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 45
In article <C5y86J.6Hs@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>Then repeat everything I said before with the word "race-related"
>substituted for "racist".  All that changes is the phrasing; complaining
>that I used the wrong word is a quibble.
Well, your Armenian grandparents were fascist. As early as 1934, K. S.
Papazian asserted in 'Patriotism Perverted' that the Armenians
'lean toward Fascism and Hitlerism.'[1]
At that time, he could not have foreseen that the Armenians would
actively assume a pro-German stance and even collaborate in World
War II. His book was dealing with the Armenian genocide of Turkish
population of eastern Anatolia. However, extreme rightwing ideological
tendencies could be observed within the Dashnagtzoutune long before
the outbreak of the Second World War.
In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the 'Tzeghagrons' was quoted
in the 'Hairenik Weekly:'
"The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall
see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations
and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to
the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are
strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race.
On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is
bereft of social sanctities."[2]
[1] K. S. Papazian, 'Patriotism Perverted,' (Boston, Baikar Press
1934), Preface.
[2] 'Hairenik Weekly,' Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our
Refuge' by O. Zarmooni.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people. Denying the obvious?
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 109
In article <1993Apr23.122146.23931@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> gassan@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu writes:
>After having read this group for some time, I am appalled at its lack of
>scholarship, its fuzzy-thinking, reliance on obsessed and obnoxious posters
Well, these are Armenian and Jewish scholars, not me. Denying the obvious?
Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.
"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the
Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character
notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian
Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the
southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia."
(See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of
Transcaucasia).
In 1920, '0' percent Turk.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
Ohanus Appressian
"Men Are Like That"
p. 202.
"In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats
in this alien land."
(Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity")
<1993Apr24.042427.29323@walter.bellcore.com>
ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Dusan Chukurov 21324)
>           The world's inaction when the conflict began over the mostly
>Christian Armenian enclave inside Muslim Azerbaijan might have
>encouraged the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina, said the
>Moscow-based activist, who's part Armenian.
No kidding. The Armenians tore apart the Ottoman Empire's eastern provinces,
massacred 2.5 million defenseless Turkish women, children and elderly
people, burned thousands of Turkish and Kurdish villages and exterminated
the entire Turkish population of the Armenian dictatorship between
1914-1920. Such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today
in Armenia brings a depth and verification to the Turkish genocide
that is hard to match. A hundred years ago Armenians again thought
they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the
Russian anarchists that they accepted as role models. Several Armenian
terror groups like ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle
resorted to the same tactics in the 1980s, butchering scores of innocent
Turks and their families in the United States and Europe. It seems that
they are doing it again, at a different scale, in fascist x-Soviet Armenia
today.
A merciless massacre of the civilian population of the small Azeri
town of Khojali (Pop. 6000) in Karabagh, Azerbaijan, is reported to
have taken place on the night of Feb. 28 under a coordinated military
operation of the 366th mechanized division of the CIS army and the
Armenian insurgents. Close to 1000 people are reported to have been
massacred. Elderly and children were not spared. Many were badly beaten
and shot at close range. A sense of rage and helplessness has overwhelmed
the Azeri population in face of the well armed and equipped Armenian
insurgency. The neighboring Azeri city of Aghdam outside of the
Karabagh region has come under heavy Armenian artillery shelling. City
hospital was hit and two pregnant women as well as a new born infant
were killed. Azerbaijan is appealing to the international community to
condemn such barbaric and ruthless attacks on its population and its
sovereignty.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: DESTROYING ETHNIC IDENTITY: TURKS OF GREECE (& Macedonians...)
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 145
In article <C5yC1K.F84@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
>>        Sure your memory is weak.
>>        Let me refresh your memory (if that's not to late):
>>        First of all: it is called ISTANBUL.
>>        Let me even spell it for you: I S T A N B U L
>    When my grandfather came in Greece, the official name of the city was
>    Constantinoupolis.
Are you related to 'Arromdian' of ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism
Triangle?
>Now, read carefully the following, and then speak:
>The recent Helsinki Watch 78 page report, Broken Promises: Torture and
Ditto.
|1|
HELSINKI WATCH: "PROBLEMS OF TURKS IN WESTERN THRACE CONTINUE"
Ankara (A.A)  In a 15-page report  of the "Helsinki Watch"  it is
stated that the Turkish minority in Western Thrace is still faced
with problems and stipulated that the discriminatory policy being
implemented by the Greek Government be brought to an end.
The report on Western Thrace emphasized that the Greek government
should grant  social and political  rights to all the  members of
minorities that are equal to  those enjoyed by Greek citizens and
in addition  they must  recognize the  existence of  the "Turkish
Minority" in Western Thrace and  grant them the right to identify
themselves as 'Turks'.
NEWSPOT, May 1992
|2|
GREECE ISOLATES WEST THRACE TURKS
The  Xanthi independent  MP Ahmet  Faikoglu said  that the  Greek
state is trying to cut all  contacts and relations of the Turkish
minority with Turkey.
Pointing out that while the  Greek minority living in Istanbul is
called "Greek"  by ethnic  definition, only  the religion  of the
minority in  Western Thrace is  considered. In an  interview with
the Greek  newspaper "Ethnos" he said:  "I am a Greek  citizen of
Turkish origin. The individuals of the minority living in Western
Trace are also Turkish."
Emphasizing  the education  problem for  the Turkish  minority in
Western  Thrace  Faikoglu said  that  according  to an  agreement
signed in 1951 Greece must distribute textbooks printed in Turkey
in Turkish minority schools in Western Thrace.
Recalling his activities and those of Komotini independent MP Dr.
SadIk  Ahmet  to  defend  the rights  of  the  Turkish  minority,
Faikoglu said.  "In fact we  helped Greece. Because  we prevented
Greece, the cradle of democracy, from losing face before European
countries by forcing the Greek  government to recognize our legal
rights."
On Turco-Greek relations, he pointed  out that both countries are
predestined  to live  in  peace for  geographical and  historical
reasons and said  that Turkey and Greece must  resist the foreign
powers  who  are  trying  to   create  a  rift  between  them  by
cooperating, adding  that in  Turkey he  observed that  there was
will to improve relations with Greece.
NEWSPOT, January 1993
|3|
MACEDONIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS TO FACE TRIAL IN GREECE.
Two ethnic Macedonian  human rights activists will  face trial in
Athens for alleged crimes against the Greek state, according to a
Court Summons (No. 5445) obtained by MILS.
Hristos  Sideropoulos and  Tashko Bulev  (or Anastasios  Bulis)
have been charged under Greek criminal law for making comments in
an Athenian magazine.
Sideropoulos and  Bulev gave an  interview to the  Greek weekly
magazine  "ENA"  on  March  11,  1992,  and  said  that  they  as
Macedonians were  denied basic human  rights in Greece  and would
field  an ethnic  Macedonian  candidate for  the up-coming  Greek
general election.
Bulev said in the interview: "I am not Greek, I am Macedonian."
Sideropoulos said  in the  article that "Greece  should recognise
Macedonia.  The  allegations  regarding  territorial  aspirations
against  Greece are  tales... We  are in  a panic  to secure  the
border, at  a time when the  borders and barriers within  the EEC
are falling."
The  main  charge  against  the two,  according  to  the  court
summons,  was   that  "they  have   spread...intentionally  false
information  which  might  create   unrest  and  fear  among  the
citizens,  and  might affect  the  public  security or  harm  the
international interests of the country (Greece)."
The  Greek  state  does  not   recognise  the  existence  of  a
Macedonian ethnicity. There are believed to be between 350,000 to
1,000,000  ethnic  Macedonians   living  within  Greece,  largely
concentrated in the north. It is  a crime against the Greek state
if anyone declares themselves Macedonian.
In  1913  Greece,   Serbia-Yugoslavia  and  Bulgaria  partioned
Macedonia into three  pieces. In 1919 Albania  took 50 Macedonian
villages. The part under  Serbo-Yugoslav occupation broke away in
1991  as the  independent Republic  of Macedonia.  There are  1.5
million Macedonians in the Republic; 500,000 in Bulgaria; 150,000
in Albania; and 300,000 in Serbia proper.
Sideropoulos  has been  a long  time campaigner  for Macedonian
human rights in  Greece, and lost his job as  a forestry worker a
few years ago.  He was even exiled to an  obscure Greek island in
the mediteranean. Only pressure from Amnesty International forced
the Greek government  to allow him to return to  his home town of
Florina (Lerin) in Northern  Greece (Aegean Macedonia), where the
majority of ethnic Macedonians live.
Balkan watchers see the Sideropoulos  affair as a show trial in
which  Greece is  desperate to  clamp down  on internal  dissent,
especially  when it  comes to  the issue  of recognition  for its
northern neighbour, the Republic of Macedonia.
Last year the  State Department of the  United States condemned
Greece for its bad treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Turks (who
largely live in Western Thrace). But it remains to be seen if the
US government  will do anything until  the Presidential elections
are over.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Danny Rubenstein Talk
Nntp-Posting-Host: bellini.berkeley.edu
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
Lines: 9
Danny Rubenstein, an Israeli journalist, will be speaking tonight
(Wednesday, 7:30 pm) on the messy subject of politics in Israel.
He is speaking at Hillel on the U.C. Berkeley campus.  The talk is
sponsored by the Berkeley Israel Action Committee (IAC).
-Adam Schwartz
adams@robotics.berkeley.edu
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Danny Rubenstein speaking tonight.
Nntp-Posting-Host: bellini.berkeley.edu
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
Lines: 7
Danny Rubenstein, an Israeli journalist, will be speaking tonight
(Wednesday, 7:30 pm) on the messy subject of politics in Israel.
He is speaking at Hillel on the U.C. Berkeley campus.
-Adam Schwartz
adams@robotics.berkeley.edu
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Subject: Go Hizbollah II!
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: purple.cc.utexas.edu
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Lines: 28
From Israel Line, Thursday, April 22, 1993:
Today's HA'ARETZ reports that three women were injured when a
Katyusha rocket fell in the center of their community. The rocket
was one of several dozen fired at the communities of the Galilee in
northern Israel yesterday by the terrorist Hizbullah organization [...]
In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu
(Brad Hernlem) wrote:
Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.
Apparently, the Hizbollah were encouraged by Brad's cheers
(good job, Brad). Someone forgot to tell them, though, that
Brad asks them to place only Israeli _sons_ in the grave,
not daughters. Paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that
the Hizbollah fires on the Galilee, they justify Israel's
holding to the security zone.
Noam
From: smith@minerva.harvard.edu (Steven Smith)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
In-Reply-To: dgannon@techbook.techbook.com's message of 21 Apr 1993 07:55:09 -0700
Organization: Applied Mathematics, Harvard University
Lines: 15
dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>     THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>
>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>
> [Holocaust revisionism]
>
> Theodore J. O'Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical
> Review.  Educated at Harvard University . . .
According to the 1990 Harvard Alumni Directory, Mr. O'Keefe failed to
graduate.  You may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated
anywhere.
Steven Smith
From: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 13
Are you people sure his posts are being forwarded to his system operator???
Who is forwarding them???
Is there a similar file being kept on Mr. Omran???
Salam,
John Absood
"Marlow ceased, and sat apart, indistinct and silent, in the pose of a
meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time...The offing was barred by
a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter-
most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky - seemed to
From: varvel@plains.NoDak.edu (Andrew Varvel)
Subject: To be exact, 2.5 million readers enlightened by Serdar Argic
Summary: :-P
Article-I.D.: ns1.C5uvBM.MzE
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: plains.nodak.edu
In article <9304202017@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
(a.k.a. Serdar Argic, The Merciful and Compassionate)
[Serdar Argic's bountiful, divine, all-knowing, and footnoted
wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute.]
WHERE CAN I JOIN THE SERDAR ARGIC FAN CLUB?  DO I GET A T-SHIRT?
--The Friendly Neighborhood Alien--
Life just hasn't been the same since David Koresh died...
From: cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 27
Reply-To: cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu
In a previous article, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) says:
>In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
>
>Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or
>Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn?
>Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another?
There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis
used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.
So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.
>to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
>agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
>
>Tim
Anas Omran
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Lines: 16
ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>I understand how israel captured the teritory and feels that it
>is its right to annex it. I can't fully understand why it has
>to deal with palestinians much the same way jews were treated
>before the holocaust (the Final Solution) by Hitler. What I
>totally don't get is why the U.S. has to subsidize the
>existance of such a thorough abuser of human rights.
>				Just wondering
Seems that you're more "just misinformed" than "just wondering."
The comparison you're making is not just totally off base, but
offensive to all sane people.
--
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Lines: 16
dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
># Well said Mr. Beyer :)
>He-he. The great humanist speaks. One has to read Mr. Salah's posters,
>in which he decribes Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps
>promising the "final battle" between Muslims and Jews (in which the
>stons and the trees will "cry for the Muslims to come and kill the
>Jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about Jews dying from heart
>attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved.
Humanist, or sub-humanist? :-)
--
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Lines: 10
"D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:
># So Steve: Lets here, what IS zionism?
>  Assuming that you mean 'hear', you weren't 'listening': he just
>  told you, "Zionism is Racism."  This is a tautological statement.
I think you are confusing "tautological" with "false and misleading."
--
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Lines: 20
cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>>Would you tell me which Arab country is prohipiting the Jews from
>>migrating to Palestine?
>the last arab country was syria. but not all of them
>migrated due to the jewish state economical and
>securital dilemma!
As usual, when Salah is not totally racist, she manages to get
virtually all the facts wrong.
Assad pledged to allow Jews to leave Syria, but not to go to Israel.
Unfortunately, not all of them have escaped yet, but not because they
don't want to leave;  rather, Assad went back on his word and stopped
issuing travel permits.  He claimed bureaucratic snags, but everyone
knows it was a tactic to pressure Israel.
--
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 12
Would it be asking too much for you to DOCUMENT these allegations of
"Israel used to arrest and kill neutral reporters"? I think you confuse
Israel with other nations of that geographical region to which the notion
of a free, unmonitored by the government, press corps would be a joke.
As for the notion that Israel threatens the human rights of Palestinians by
sealing off the Gaza strip, get real. When the Palestinian-on-Palestinian
civil war stops and all Palestinians can behave like mature human beings,
Israel will talk concessions on both sides for peace. Not before.
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Lines: 45
In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
> In a previous article, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) says:
>
>>In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>>>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>>>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>>>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>>>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
>>
>>Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or
>>Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn?
>>Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another?
>
> There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
> on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
> Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis
> used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.
Anas, of course ! The YAHUD needed blood for the matza. After all, Passover
*was* last month :-)
Why don't you give us your National Geographic travelogue of your recent trip
to "Palestine" ? Or are you too disappointed by what you saw ? :-)
Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
> So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
> They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.
>
>>to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
>>agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
>>
>>Tim
>
> Anas Omran
>
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)
<1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU><2BD9C01D.11546@news.service.uci.edu> <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Organization: Inst. of Comp. Sci., Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Israel
NNTP-Posting-Host: shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il
In-reply-to: cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu's message of 25 Apr 1993 05:26:48 GMT
Lines: 14
cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
The Israelis
used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.
Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
--Amos
--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
From: Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
<1993Apr20.013037.20907@news.columbia.edu>
Lines: 5
What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
s well as jewish religion, among others.  Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
k Shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the
way Abdul Nidal does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 32
In article <1r3n8d$4m5@techbook.techbook.com> dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>
>   THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>
>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>
>HARD BY THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT, within clear view of the Jefferson
>Memorial, an easy stroll down the Mall to the majestic Lincoln Memorial,
>has arisen, on some of the most hallowed territory of the United States of
>America, a costly and dangerous mistake.  On ground where no monument yet
>marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of Americans of all
>races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation, sits today a
>massive and costly edifice, devoted above all to a contentious and false
>version of the ordeal in Europe during World War II, of non-American
>members of a minority, sectarian group.  Now, in the deceptive guise of
>tolerance, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum begins a propaganda
>campaign, financed through the unwitting largess of the American taxpayer,
>in the interests of Israel and its adherents in America.
After reading the first paragraph, a quick scan confirmed my first
impression: this is a bunch of revisionist and anti-semitic hogwash.
The NY Times reported on April 18, 1993 that the museum "was built
through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?
Originator: ahmeda@celeborn.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: celeborn.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
Lines: 59
In article <HM.93Apr24133027@angell.cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
|> In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
|>
|>    Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
|>    ------------------------------------
|>
|>    While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
|>    repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
|>    attempt to starve the Gazans.
|>
|>    [...]
|>
|> The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
|> their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
|> and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
|> Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.
|>
|> Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
|> Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.
|>
|> You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
|> am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.
|>
|> Harry.
O.K., its my turn:
DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!
I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
plan !
(Pro Israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity
since it was coined by Bnai Brith)
What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
Law. This would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the Jews in
Palestine took control of the land and its (mostly Muslim) inhabitants.
However, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their
homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. The political
thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the
Jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice.
As for the PLO, I am at a loss to explain what is going inside Arafat's mind.
Although their political thinking seems far fetched with Israel acting as a true
super-power in the region, the Islamic movements are using the same weapon the
Jews used to establish their state : Religion.
Ahmed.
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 19
In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
>                                                           The Israelis
>   used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.
>
>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
>
>--Amos
>
Actually, I'm still trying to understand the self-justifying rationale
behind the recent murder of Ian Feinberg (?) in Gaza.
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 23
bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu  writes:
>
>    The comparison of the Palestinian situation with the Holocaust
> is insulting and completely false.  Any person making such a rude
> and false comparison is either ignorant of the Holocaust, or also
> ignorant of the situation in the mideast, or is an anti-semite.
>
>    To compare a complicated political situation with the genocide
> of 6,000,000 Jews is racist in and of itself.
>
First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you).
What I resent is ignorant statements that call people
names when they disagree with your position. Opposing the
atrocities commited by the Israeli governement hardly qualifies
as anti-semitism. If you think name calling is a valid form of
argument in intellectual circles, you need to get out more
often.
I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
not appreciated.
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 22
tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu  writes:
> Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or
> Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn?
> Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? The only way
> to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
> agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
>
> Tim
First let me correct myself in that it was Goerbels and
not Goering (Airforce) who ran the Nazi propaganda machine. I
agree that Arab news sources are also inherently biased. But I
believe the statement I was reacting to was that since the
american accounts of events are not fully like the Israeli
accounts, the Americans are biased. I just thought that the
Israelis had more motivation for bias.
The UN has tried many times to condemn Israel for its
gross violation of human rights. However the US has vetoed most
such attempts. It is interesting to note that the U.S. is often
the only country opposing such condemnation (well the U.S. and
Israel). It is also interesting to note that that means
other western countries realize these human rights violations.
So maybe there are human rights violations going on after all.
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Freedom In U.S.A.
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 11
I have just started reading the articles in this news
group. There seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet
other members with scare tactics. I believe one posting said
that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his
server who keeps a file on him in hope that "Appropriate action
might be taken".
I don't know where you guys are from but in America
such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
repressive ideals back to where you came from.
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 37
In article <2BCE6222.24844@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>In article <2BCA3DC0.13224@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>
>>The latest Israeli "proposal", first proposed in February of 1992, contains
>>the following assumptions concerning the nature of any "interim status" refering to the WB and Gaza, the Palestinians, implemented by negotiations. It
>>states that:
>>   >Israel will remain the existing source of authority until "final status"
>>    is agreed upon;
>>   >The exercise of powers under the ISGA will be subject to cooperation and
>>    coordination with Israel.
>>   >Israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the
>>    areas of administration, justice, personnel, agriculture, education,
>>    business, tourism, labor and social welfare, local police,
>>    local transportation and communications, municipal affairs and religious
>>    affairs.
>>
>>The Palestinian counterproposal of March 1992:
>>   >There will be no limitations on its (PISGA) powers and responsibilities
>>    "except those which derive from its character as an interim arrangement";
>>   >It will have a strong police force responsible for security and public
>>    order in the OPT;
>>   >It can request the assistance of a UN peacekeeping force;
>>   >Disputes with Israel over self-governing arrangements will be settled by
>>    a committee composed of representatives of the five permanent members of
>>    the UN Security Council, the Secretary General (of the UN), the PISGA,
>>    Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Israel.
>>
I have read that there will be some concrete proposals concerning creation
of a "palestinian police force" during the talk's next stage.  Does anyone
knows of the details of this idea? How does it "fit" with the differing
conceptions listed above?
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717
From: cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron
Lines: 16
Nf-ID: #R:horenC5LDuz.5sE@netcom.com:1074830076:cdp:1483500346:000:733
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 16 17:02:00 1993
Aryans who do not base their reasoning on Nazi ideology are racists...
Thus spoke an American citizen in the name of Judaism. If this is Judaism,
I think Judaism should be combatted as any extremist and dangerous
philosophy.
I suspect however that Martin Buber, Albert Einstein and other Jewish
scholars would have rather converted to Christianity than stay Jews, if
they would have perceived Judaism as such a perverted philosophy.
Those who wish to learn something about the perversion of Judaism,
should consult the masterly work by Yehoshua Harkabi, who was many
years the head of Israeli Intelligence and an opponent of the PLO. His
latest book was published in English and includes a very detailed analysis
of Judeo-Nazism.
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Lines: 66
In article <22APR199300374349@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>>I must say I was appalled by the American Jewish Council's open letter.
>>>America is not the world's policeman.  We cannot and should not take it upon
>>>ourselves to solve the problems of the entire world.  America's young men and
>>>women should not be sent to Yugoslavia, period.  If people feel strongly
>>>enough, let them go as individuals to fight alongside the butchers of their
>>>choice.
>>We have a volunteer army.  The argument you gave only applies if we have a
>>draft.
>Huh?
Sorry, I misread your remark about young men and women.  (Though I am now
unsure what that sentence does mean.)
>>Furthermore, people do not become butchers by _being_ "ethnic
>>cleansed".  Or do you automatically call them butchers because they are Muslim?
>I am disappointed in your logic, especially coming from a stalwart of
>sci.skeptic.
You implied that anyone who wants to send troops to Bosnia wants to do so to
help the "butchers of their choice".  Since the primary targets of help are
Muslim victims of "ethnic cleansing", you imply that such Muslim victims are
butchers.
>1) People become butchers by butchering.  There have been atrocities on all
>sides.
This implies both sides are equal.  True, it may sometimes be difficult or
impossible to determine which side is the victim, but that does not mean that
victims do not exist.  Would you, in WWII have said that there were atrocities
on the sides of both the Jews and the Germans?
>These people have been butchering each other for centuries.  When one
>side wins and gets what it wants, it will stop.
Yes, but both sides want different things.  The Muslims chiefly want to not
be "ethnic cleansed".  The Serbians want to "ethnic cleanse" the Muslims.  It
is indeed true that each side will stop when it gets what it wants, but the
things that the two sides want are not equivalent.
>2) Quite an impressive leap of reasoning to assume that I am so racist as to
>call someone a butcher because they are Muslim.  In fact, I think on the
>contrary, the media fixation on this war, as opposed to the dozens upon dozens
>of civil wars which have been fought in the recent past is because these are
>white people, in Europe.  When atrocities occur in the Third World, there is
>not as much news coverage, and not nearly the same level of outrage.
I recall, before we did anything for Somalia, (apparent) left-wingers saying
that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to Bosnia than to
Somalia was because the Somalis are third-worlders who Americans consider
unworthy of help.  They suddenly shut up when the US decided to send troops to
the opposite place than that predicted by the theory.
For that matter, this theory of yours suggests that Americans should want to
help the Serbs.  After all, they're Christian, and the Muslims are not.  If
the desire to intervene in Bosnia is based on racism against people that are
less like us, why does everyone _want_ to help the side that _is_ less like us?
Especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think?
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
-- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)
Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Lines: 30
In article <22APR199300513566@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>Are you aware that there is an arms embargo on all of what is/was
>>Yugoslavia, including Bosnia, which guarantees massive military
>>superiority of Serbian forces and does not allow the Bosnians to
>>try to defend themselves?
>Should we sell weapons to all sides, or just the losing one, then?
Ending an embargo does not _we_ must sell anything at all.
>If the Europeans want to sell weapons to one or both sides, they are welcome
>as far as I'm concerned.
You seem to oppose ending the embargo.  You know, it is difficult for Europeans
to sell weapons when there is an embargo in place.
>I do not automatically accept the argument that Bosnia is any worse than
>other recent civil wars, say Vietnam for instance.  The difference is it is
>happening to white people inside Europe, with lots of TV coverage.
But if this was the reason, and if furthermore both sides are equal, wouldn't
all us racist Americans be favoring the good Christians (Serbs) instead
of the non-Christians we really seem to favor?
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
-- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)
Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Lines: 84
In article <C5vBnv.CJ@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes...
>In article <22APR199300374349@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>> [I complained about the US taking the point in Bosnia, when the Europeans
>>  should be doing it]
>  [Ken says the Bosnians are morally superior to the Serbians...]
>This implies both sides are equal.  True, it may sometimes be difficult or
>impossible to determine which side is the victim, but that does not mean that
>victims do not exist.
Yes, victims exist.  There are a staggering number of victims in the world and
more each day.  I think on balance, intervention would create more victims,
including American ones.  Since the first responsibility of the US government
is to protect Americans, I think they serve that role best by staying away
from Bosnia and other regional conflicts.
>Would you, in WWII have said that there were atrocities
>on the sides of both the Jews and the Germans?
Of course not.  The Jews were not trying to carve a territory out of Germany
either, and except for small-scale resistance and a few larger uprisings, did
not have an army or a government.
>>These people have been butchering each other for centuries.  When one
>>side wins and gets what it wants, it will stop.
>
>Yes, but both sides want different things.  The Muslims chiefly want to not
>be "ethnic cleansed".  The Serbians want to "ethnic cleanse" the Muslims.  It
>is indeed true that each side will stop when it gets what it wants, but the
>things that the two sides want are not equivalent.
I see the pattern of atrocities as a fairly often practiced tactic of a
colonizing power - driving away and/or eliminating the population of an
area they want to control.  The US tried basically that in Vietnam, the Iraqis
in Kuwait, the Israelis in Palestine, South Africa, etc, etc, etc.  It sucks,
it's ugly, and it's saddening.  But it is not genocide.
It is not my impression that the Serbs want to eliminate every Muslim in
Yugoslavia.  I still say the Bosnians are getting their asses kicked; they
should surrender and evacuate the areas they can't hold.
> [I said the fixation on Bosnia is due to it being in a European country,
>  rather than the third world]
>
>I recall, before we did anything for Somalia, (apparent) left-wingers saying
>that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to Bosnia than to
>Somalia was because the Somalis are third-worlders who Americans consider
>unworthy of help.  They suddenly shut up when the US decided to send troops to
>the opposite place than that predicted by the theory.
I am a staunch Republican, BTW.  The irony of arguing against military
intervention with arguments based on Vietnam has not escaped me.  I was opposed
to US intervention in Somalia for the same reasons, although clearly it was
not nearly as risky.
>For that matter, this theory of yours suggests that Americans should want to
>help the Serbs.  After all, they're Christian, and the Muslims are not.  If
>the desire to intervene in Bosnia is based on racism against people that are
>less like us, why does everyone _want_ to help the side that _is_ less like us?
>Especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think?
Well, one thing you have to remember is, the press likes a good story.   Good
for business, don't you know.  And BTW, not "everyone" wants to help the
side that is less like us.
I never said the two sides were morally equivalent, I said neither one is
innocent.
There are just too many good reasons to stay away:
1) The Europeans are perfectly able to deal with this dispute on their borders
in any way we do it.  Put another way, we have no assistance to offer the
Europeans which they do not already possess themselves.  It is not good to
promote the idea in anyone's mind that the United States is responsible
for cleaning up every bloody mess in the world.
2) Clinton is not the man to lead this country into a military adventure.  Full
stop.
3) It is by no means clear what intervention would accomplish, nor that it
would necessarily help the victims.  It is not clear what the goal is and
at what point any commitment could be ended.
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Lines: 50
In article <C5vBtK.F3@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes...
>In article <22APR199300513566@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>>Are you aware that there is an arms embargo on all of what is/was
>>>Yugoslavia, including Bosnia, which guarantees massive military
>>>superiority of Serbian forces and does not allow the Bosnians to
>>>try to defend themselves?
>>Should we sell weapons to all sides, or just the losing one, then?
>
>Ending an embargo does not _we_ must sell anything at all.
Right.  We'll probably end up giving them weapons.
>>If the Europeans want to sell weapons to one or both sides, they are welcome
>>as far as I'm concerned.
>
>You seem to oppose ending the embargo.  You know, it is difficult for Europeans
>to sell weapons when there is an embargo in place.
During WWII, the British managed to supply arms to the Yugoslavs despite
German occupation.  If the Europeans had the will to do anything besides
sponsoring peace conferences, they would have no problem putting any kind of
weapon they wanted into Bosnia.
I guess I would favor ending the embargo if the Congress would pass a law
forbidding export of US military supplies to Yugoslavia, including via third
parties.  Until then the risks of the US being drawn into a more active
role would be too great.  I do not see the arms embargo as a major factor in
the outcome of the war.
>>I do not automatically accept the argument that Bosnia is any worse than
>>other recent civil wars, say Vietnam for instance.  The difference is it is
>>happening to white people inside Europe, with lots of TV coverage.
>
>But if this was the reason, and if furthermore both sides are equal, wouldn't
>all us racist Americans be favoring the good Christians (Serbs) instead
>of the non-Christians we really seem to favor?
Both sides are certainly not equal in the eyes of the press.  And that's
about all we have to go on, isn't it?
And I wish you'd quit hurling words like racist around.  There are many levels
at which people react to what they see.  At the most fundamental level, you
do not have to consciously recognize the racial element - you simply tend to
empathize more with people who are like yourself.  As far preferring
Christian over Moslem, I am an atheist myself, and I think you'll agree that
in the US, the majority of people do not typically discriminate on the basis of
religion, nor give it a particularly important place in their world view.
Dave
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Killer
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 95
In article <1993Apr21.032746.10820@doug.cae.wisc.edu> yamen@cae.wisc.edu
(Soner Yamen) responded to article <1r20kr$m9q@nic.umass.edu> BURAK@UCSVAX.
UCS.UMASS.EDU (AFS) who wrote:
[AFS]     Just a quick comment::
[AFS]
[AFS]     Armenians killed Turks------Turks killed Armenians.
[AFS]
[AFS]     Simple as that. Can anybody deny these facts?
Jews killed Germans in WWII -- Germans killed Jews in WWII, BUT there was
quite a difference in these two statements, regardless of what Nazi
revisionists say!
[SY] My grand parents were living partly in todays Armenia and partly in
[SY] todays Georgia. There were villages, Kurd/Turk (different Turkic groups)
[SY] Georgian (muslim/christian) Armenian and Farsi... Very near to eachother.
[SY] The people living there were aware of their differences. They were
[SY] different people. For example, my grandfather would not have been happy
[SY] if his doughter had willed to marry an Armenian guy. But that did not
[SY] mean that they were willing to kill eachother. No! They were neighbors.
OK.
[SY] Armenians killed Turks. Which Armenians? Their neoghbors? As far as my
[SY] grandparents are concerned, the Armenians attacked first but these
[SY] Armenians were not their neighbors. They came from other places. Maybe
[SY] first they had a training at some place. They were taught to kill people,
[SY] to hate Turks/Kurds? It seems so...
There is certainly a difference between the planned extermination of the
Armenians of eastern Turkey beginning in 1915, with that of the Armeno-
Georgian conflicts of late 1918! The argument is not whether Armenians ever
killed in their collective existence, but rather the wholesale destruction of
Anatolian Armenians under orders of the Turkish government. An Armenian-
Georgian dispute over the disposition of Akhalkalak, Lori, and Pambak after
the Turkish Third Army evacuated the region, cannot be equated with the
extermination of Anatolian Armenians. Many Armenians and Georgians died
in this area in the scramble to re-occupy these lands and the lack of
preparation for the winter months. This is not the same as the Turkish
genocide of the Armenians nearly four years earlier, hundreds of kilometers
away!
[SY] Anyway, but after they killed/raped/... Turks and other muslim people
[SY] around, people assumed that 'Armenians killed us, raped our women',
[SY] not a particular group of people trained in some camps, maybe backed
[SY] by some powerful states... After that step, you cannot explain these
[SY] people not to hate all Armenians.
I don't follow, perhaps the next paragraph will shed some light.
[SY] So what am I trying to point out? First, at least for that region,
[SY] you cannot blame Turks/Kurds etc since it was a self defense situation.
[SY] Most of the Armenians, I think, are not to blame either. But since some
[SY] people started that fire, it is not easy to undo it. There are facts.
[SY] People cannot trust eachother easily. It is very difficult to establish
[SY] a good relation based on mutual respect and trust between nations with
[SY] different ethnic/cultural/religious backgrounds but it is unfortunately
[SY] very easy to start a fire!
Again, the fighting between Armenians and Georgians in 1918/19 had little to
do with the destruction of the Armenians in Turkey. It is interesting that
the Georgian leaders of the Transcaucasian Federation (Armenia, Azerbaijan,
and Georgia) made special deals with Turkish generals not to pass through
Tiflis on their way to Baku, in return for Georgians not helping the Armenians
militarily. Of course, as Turkish troops marched across what was left of
Caucasian Armenia, many Armenians went north and such population movement
caused problems with the locals. This is in no comparison with events 4 years
earlier in eastern Anatolia. My father's mother's family escaped Cemiskezek ->
Erzinka -> Erzerum -> Nakhitchevan -> Tiflis -> Constantinople ->
Massachusetts.
[SY] My grandparents were *not* bloodthirsty people. We did not experience
[SY] what they had to endure... They had to leave their lands, there were
[SY] ladies, old ladies, all of her children killed while she forced to
[SY] witness! Young women put dirt at their face to make themselves
[SY] unattractive! I don't want to go into any graphic detail.
My grandmother's brother was forced to dress up as a Kurdish women, and paste
potato skins on his face to look ugly. The Turks would kill any Armenian
young man on sight in Dersim. Because their family was rather influential,
local Kurds helped them escape before it was too late. This is why I am alive
today.
[SY] You may think that my sources are biased. They were biased in some sense.
[SY] They experienced their own pain, of course. That is the way it is.  But
[SY] as I said they were living in peace with their neighbors before. Why
[SY] should they become enemies?
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 20
In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?It is the home of the muslim a
>s well as jewish religion, among others.Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
>k Shamir did forty orfifty yearsago which is terrorize westerners much in the
> way Abdul Nidal does today.Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
>ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.
If "ownership" were rightly based on "worthiness" there wouldn't be any owners.
What is your point?
As I understand it, Israel's "claim" on Jerusalem is based on 1) possession,
and 2) the absolutely CENTRAL (not second, not third) role it plays in jewish
identity.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Tim Clock                                 Ph.D./Graduate student
[tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu]                Department of Politics and Society
"We have met the                          tel:(714)8565361/Fax:(714)8568441
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion
Nntp-Posting-Host: supergas
Reply-To: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Lines: 34
In article <18APR93.15729846.0076@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>Just a couple of questions for the pro-Israeli lobby out there:
>
>1) Is Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon temporary?  For Mr.
>Stein:  I am working on a proof for you that Israel is diverting
>water to the Jordan River (away from Lebanese territory).
Yes. As long as the goverment over there can force some authority and prevent
terrorists attack against Israel.
>
>2) Is Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan
>temporary?  If so (for those of you who support it), why were so
>many settlers moved into the territories?  If it is not temporary,
>let's hear it.
Sinai had several big cities that were avcuated when isreal gave it back to
Egypth, but for a peace agreement. So it is my opinin that the settlers will not
be an obstacle for withdrawal as long it is combined with a real peace agreement
with the Arabs and the Palastinians.
>
>Steve
>
Naftaly
---
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan
Lines: 33
In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
In article <1r3n8d$4m5@techbook.techbook.com> Dan Gannon writes:
[DG] THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
[DG] by Theodore J. O'Keefe
[DG] HARD BY THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT, within clear view of the Jefferson
[DG] Memorial, an easy stroll down the Mall to the majestic Lincoln Memorial,
[DG] has arisen, on some of the most hallowed territory of the United States of
[DG] America, a costly and dangerous mistake.  On ground where no monument yet
[DG] marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of Americans of all
[DG] races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation, sits today a
[DG] massive and costly edifice, devoted above all to a contentious and false
[DG] version of the ordeal in Europe during World War II, of non-American
[DG] members of a minority, sectarian group.  Now, in the deceptive guise of
[DG] tolerance, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum begins a propaganda
[DG] campaign, financed through the unwitting largess of the American taxpayer,
[DG] in the interests of Israel and its adherents in America.
[JAKE] After reading the first paragraph, a quick scan confirmed my first
[JAKE] impression: this is a bunch of revisionist and anti-semitic hogwash.
Jake, I'm really disappointed in you. It took you a whole paragraph
to see that it was "bunch of revisionist and anti-semitic hogwash". :-)
The article title "THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND
DANGEROUS MISTAKE" should have been enough! :-)
Tsiel
--
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
From: nabil@ariel.yorku.ca (Nabil Gangi)
Subject: Dear Mr Ajami
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Lines: 20
I have read -just today- two articles dripping of hate and offence to
a great deal of people. I could  find as much matching hatred in your
articles as I have found in some of the self-righteous "Kill-in-the-name
of God" people.
I don't know why you are so attcaking to everyone, is it a reaction to
the hatred calls on this newsgroup, or is it a reaction to hardships
you have seen and experienced from before...
I have learnt not to judge people by only what they say, but rather
try to put myself in their place and aspire to understand their
feelings.
I hope you would be able to do the same with everyone, starting by your
ownself, because only through that you could be able to understand your
feelings and act in a the manner you would aspire everyone to adopt.
Thanks for your time
NABIL
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 30
In article <1993Apr25.182253.1449@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	I have just started reading the articles in this news
>group. There seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet
>other members with scare tactics. I believe one posting said
>that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his
>server who keeps a file on him in hope that "Appropriate action
>might be taken".
>	I don't know where you guys are from but in America
>such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
>not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
>regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
>repressive ideals back to where you came from.
It would be nice if, as you rightly point out the inherent value of
freedom of speech, discussion would also deal with the all-to-
frequent ritualized abuses and distortions of that freedom that do
occur. There are situations where a few extremely vocal, and
usually radical, people **do** drive people away, effectively stifle
all other ("opposing") views and generally "take over". *Clearly*,
the purpose behind such actions is *to deprive* others of *their*
freedom of speech through overt and covert coercion and domination of
the "media form" in question. While "freedom" of speech is to be valued,
this is not. How would you suggest that this sort of reoccuring problem be
alleviated? More particularly, how can this be controlled within the
structure of these newsgroups?
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717
From: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 25
Dear Mr. Beyer:
It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
of racism and violent deragatory."
It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial
distinction.
Indeed, I find the latter in absolute and complete contradiction
to the former. Racial invective tends to create an atmosphere of
intimidation where certain individuals (who belong to the group
under target group) do not feel the ease and liberty to exercise
*their* fundamental "freedom of speech."
This brand of vilification is not sanctioned under "freedom of
speech.
Salam,
John Absood
"Marlow ceased, and sat apart, indistinct and silent, in the pose of a
meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time...The offing was barred by
a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter-
most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky - seemed to
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Binyamin Netanyahu on CNN tonight.
In-Reply-To: mkaye@world.std.com's message of Thu, 15 Apr 1993 13:56:58 GMT
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: byron.sp.cs.cmu.edu
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Lines: 15
In article <C5J2qz.MnE@world.std.com> mkaye@world.std.com (Martin Kaye) writes:
Great interview with Benjamin Netanyahu on CNN - Larry King Live (4/15/93)
This guy is knows what he is talking about. He is truely charismatic,
articulate, intelligent, and demonstrates real leadership qualities.
I agree, but I wish I liked his politics.
--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 681 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Legality of the Jewish Purchase (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 69
In article <1993Apr16.225910.16670@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>Adam Shostack writes:
>> Sam Zbib writes
>   >>I'm surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
>   >>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
>   >>state, as a hostile action leading to war.
>
>>	It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
>> exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
>> 400 000 arab citizens.
>
>Could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of
>Israel right after it was formed.
>
>
>> 	And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
>> action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
>> to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
>> is not a hostile action leading to war.
>
>No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
>Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
>anti-trust in the business world.
>
>Since we are debating the legality of a commercial
>transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines
>and ethics of such transactions. Basic ANTI-TRUST law says
>that, while you can purchase IBM stocks for the purpose of
>investing, you can not acquire a large number of those
>shares with the intent or controlling IBM. You can do so
>only if you make your intentions CLEAR apriori . Clearly,
>the Jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some
>designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate.
>They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.
>
>The palastenians sold their properties to the Jews in the
>old tradition of arab hospitality. Being a multi-ethnic /
>multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours
>was no different, just another religion. Plus they paid fair
>market value, etc... They did not know they were victims of
>an international conspiracy. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist
>myself, but this one is hard to dismiss).
>
Right now, I'm just going to address this point.
When the Jewish National Fund bought most of its land,
It didn't buy it from the Palestinians themselves, because,
for the most part, they were tenant farmers (fallahin),
living on land owned by wealthy Arabs in Syria and Lebanon.
The JNF offered a premium deal, so the owners took advantage of
it.   It's called commerce.  The owners, however, made no
provisions for those who had worked for them, basically shafting
them by selling the land right out from under them.
They are to blame, not the Jews.
>
>> Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
>
>--
>Sam Zbib                                         Bell-Northern Research
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bitnet/Internet: zbib@bnr.ca                    VOICE:  (613) 763-5889
>                                                FAX:    (613) 763-2626
>Surface Mail: Stop 162, P.O.Box 3511, Station C, Ottawa, Canada, K1Y 4H7
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>       My opinions are my own and no one else's
Amir
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Argic
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Lines: 6
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
Hey Serdar:
Man without a brain, yare such a LOSER!!!
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Lines: 5
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
What are you, retarded?
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Lines: 5
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
You are quite the loser
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Argic
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Lines: 5
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
You definetly are in need of a shrink, loser!
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Lines: 5
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
Go back to nursery school jerk.
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Lines: 5
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
What are you stupid?
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Argic
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Lines: 7
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
You are brain damaged. That hate of++0B1FATransfer cancelledf yours courses
through your sick body like poison. It's just a matter of time. Your fate
is sealed.
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida
Lines: 21
ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you).
Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's
"qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany,
show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.
> 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> not appreciated.
ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were
tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications"
in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go
back to the minors, junior.
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Keywords: usa federal, government, international, non-usa government
Lines: 39
In article <C5ztEt.Dwz.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>
>>  BTW, with Bosnia's large Moslem population, why have nations like
>>  Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and others with either money
>>  or strong military forces not spoken out more forcibly or offered
>>  to help out Bosnia?
>
>Obviously, you really don't know.
>
>They *have* spoken out (cf Sec'y of State Christopher's recent trip to the ME),
Note the clause "more forcibly", above.     My point is that they have
made a few pro-forma, perfunctory remarks, and sent in a few C-130's and
so forth, but it's clearly not something they're losing much sleep over.
They're just going through the motions, while Moslems are being "ethnically
cleansed" out of what used to be Yugoslavia.   The US has been speaking
out far more loudly than the Moslem nations in the UN and other world
forums.
>>  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>>  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>>  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>>  don't count?
>
>Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
>"oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.
Precisely.   Humanitarian concerns were not the primary justification
for US involvement in the Gulf - oil and geopolitics were.  If the
the Kuwaitis didn't have oil (and assuming Iraq still saw fit to
invade them) I doubt you would have seen Operation Desert Storm.
---peter
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 30
In article <1993Apr25.182253.1449@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	I don't know where you guys are from but in America
>such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
>not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
>regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
>repressive ideals back to where you came from.
Hey tough guy, freedom necessitates responsibility, and
no freedom is absolute.
BTW, to anyone who defends Arafat, read on:
"Open fire on the new Jewish immigrants, be they from the Soviet
Union, Ethiopia or anywhere else....I give you my instructions to
use violence against the immigrants.  I willjail anyone who
refuses to do this."
Yassir Arafat, Al-Muharar, 4/10/90
At least he's not racist!
Just anti-Jewish
Pete
From: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 14
Mr. Freeman:
Please find something more constructive to do with your time rather
than engaging in fantasy..... Not that I have a particular affinty
to Arafat or anything.
John
"Marlow ceased, and sat apart, indistinct and silent, in the pose of a
meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time...The offing was barred by
a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter-
most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky - seemed to
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Keywords: usa federal, government, international, non-usa government
Lines: 34
In article <C5ztK0.DyI.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>I said:
>  In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>  >
>  >  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>  >  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>  >  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>  >  don't count?
>
>  Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
>  "oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.
>
>...and let's not forget Somalia, which is about as far from white as it
>gets.
And why are we in Somalia?   When right across the Gulf of Aden are
some of the wealthiest Arab nations on the planet?  Why does the
US always become the point man for this stuff?   I don't mind us
helping out; but what invariably happens is that everybody expects
us to do most of the work and take most of the risks, even when these
events are occuring in other people's back yards, and they have the
resources to deal with them quite well, thank you.  I mean, it's
not like either Serbia, or Somalia represent some overwhelming
military force that their neighbors can't handle.  Nor are the
logistics a big deal -- it's a lot bigger logistical challenge
to get troops and supplies from New York to Somalia, than from
Saudi Arabia; harder to go from Texas to Serbia, than Turkey or
Austria to Serbia.
---peter
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 29
waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>
> > First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> > Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> > about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you).
>
> Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's
> "qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany,
> show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.
>
> > 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> > justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> > attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> > not appreciated.
>
> ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were
> tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
> YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
> sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications"
> in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go
> back to the minors, junior.
All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
others suffered physically. It is sad that people like you are
so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. Thanks
for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of
ignorant people I am dealing with. I included your letter since
I thought it demonstrated my point more than anything I could
write.
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 23
jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu  writes:
> Dear Mr. Beyer:
>
> It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
> of racism and violent deragatory."
>
> It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial
> distinction.
In fact, if a speach was not offensive to some, its
protection under Freedom of speach laws would be useless. It is
speach that some find questionable that must be protected, be
it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist. It is only
through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can
enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant. That is the
idea behind freedom of expression.
What you find offensive might be perceived as truth by
some and what they might find offensive might be your belief.
It is only through free exchange of ideas (and insults as the
case seems to be with this channel) that one can change
another's erring ways.That is why Jefferson said that here
we are not afraid to "tolerate error so long as reason is left to
combat it".
From: avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl (Avi Cohen Stuart)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Originator: avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl
Nntp-Posting-Host: duteinh.et.tudelft.nl
Organization: Delft University of Technology, Dept. of Electrical Engineering
Lines: 14
From article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>, by Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>:
> What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
> s well as jewish religion, among others.  Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
> k Shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the
>  way Abdul Nidal does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
> ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.
There is one big difference between Israel and the Arabs, Christians in this
respect.
Israel allows freedom of religion.
Avi.
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Gaza and separation from Israel
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500357:000:3740
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 24 07:06:00 1993
Lines: 73
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Gaza and separation from Israel
Gaza and the idea of separation
The Israeli Left's inability to cope with the challenges it is
presented with by reality becomes obvious at those moments when
the reality does not line up with the expectations of the left. We
were able to see this clearly during the Gulf War.  Because of the
Palestinian's popular solidarity with Iraq, Yossi Sarid -
currently Minister of the Environment - made his infamous
statement: "You look for me !", i.e., I'am not making any more
efforts to speak with you. From Yossi Sarid's point of view,
Palestinian reality during the Gulf War was not the lengthy curfew
or the danger of hunger it brought with it, but whether or not the
Palestinians accepted what was acceptable to the party. Similarly
MERETZ, MK Deddi Tzuker, recently faced with criticism from
residents of the West Bank town of Beit Sahour over his
government's and his party's lack of action for human rights and
peace, responded by asking those present at the discussion whether
they would rather have a Likud government. From the Leftists'
perspective this is the best government because it is THEIR
government, regardless of what it does.
These members of the Israeli Left have already decided how the
future of the Occupied Territories will look, and they want to
dictate to the Palestinians how to get there. An essential step
towards this future is their participation in Yitzhak Rabin's
government, and from their point of view the expulsions were a
marginal byproduct of this "government of peace", which need not
disturb the routine course of events. Likewise the "Rabinic"
policies in Gaza - the blowing up of houses with anti-tank rockets
and the significant increases in the number of persons injured in
the suppression of demonstrations - need not disturb it.
But the fact that reality is not as they would have it forces
itself upon them when a mob in Gaza falls upon a settler who has
lost his way, when a settler is stabbed by his Palestinian
workers, or when a Palestinian knifes people in the streets of Tel
Aviv. Then all hell breaks loose and the Israeli Left has nothing
to propose except separation: Let's cut ourselves off from the
Palestinians, let's build a fence so high that they won't be able
to harm us - this is the cry of the Israeli Left. Let us erect a
fence between us and the reality whith is the occupation.
Meron Benvenisti writes about this in Ha'aretz (4-3-93): "...The
liberal Left. which does not differentiate between physical
separation and 'the future of the territories', must come to
understand that the regime of magnetic cards, exclusion of Arab
workers, closure, and curfew are instruments of enforcement
designed for the suppression of a population in revolt, and that
their ideological support for separation only provides
'humanitarian' arguments for the legitimization of the <status
quo>.
Enforced separation is carried out only to meet the need of the
ruling community, but it is only the ruled population which bears
its burden. [.....].
"Whoover thinks that 'out of Gaza first' is a liberal,
humanitarian idea had best contemplate the question of whether
this position is also moral. It is very easy to shake off
responsibility for this concentration of human suffering, and to
thus also disregard responsibility for it's creation. It is very
easy to erect a fence between Jewish and Arab neighborhoods in
Jerusalem, when this fence has a gate - the keys to which are at
the disposal of one hand - which opens to allow the Jews to pursue
all their interests, but is barred to the Arabs...".
------------------------------------------------------
>From The OTHER Front, Jerusalem, 10 March 1993
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: conf:mideast.levant
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500358:000:1967
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 24 14:55:00 1993
Lines: 47
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: conf:mideast.levant
Rights of children violated by the State of Israel (selected
articles of the IV Geneva Convention of 1949)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Article 31:  No physical or moral coercion shall be exercised
against protected persons, in particular to obtain information
from them or from third parties.
Article 32:  The High Contracting Parties specifically agree that
each of them is prohibited from taking any measure of such a
character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of
protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not
only to murder, torture, corporal punishment (...) but also to any
other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or
military agents.
Article 33:  No protected person may be punished for an offence he
or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and
likewise measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Article 34:  Taking of hostages is prohibited.
Article 49:  Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as
deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the
territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country,
occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
Article 50:  The  Occupying Power shall, with the cooperation of
the national and local authorities, facilitate the proper working
of all institutions devoted to the care and education of
children.
Article 53:  Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or
personal property belonging individually or collectively to
private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities,
or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except
where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by
military operations.
PS: It is obvious that violations of the above articles are also
violations of the International Convention of the Rights of the
Child.
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Assistance to Palest.people
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500359:000:3036
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 24 15:00:00 1993
Lines: 78
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Assistance to Palest.people
U.N. General Assembly Resolution 46/201 of 20 December 1991
ASSISTANCE TO THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE
---------------------------------------------
The General Assembly
Recalling its resolution 45/183 of 21 December 1990
Taking into account the intifadah of the Palestinian people in the
occupied Palestinian territory against the Israeli occupation,
including Israeli economic and social policies and practices,
Rejecting Israeli restrictions on external economic and social
assistance to the Palestinian people in the occupied Palestinian
territory,
Concerned about the economic losses of the Palestinian people as a
result of the Gulf crisis,
Aware of the increasing need to provide economic and social
assistance to the Palestinian people,
Affirming that the Palestinian people cannot develop their
national economy as long as the Israeli occupation persists,
1. Takes note of the report of the Secretary-General on assistance
to the Palestinian people;
2. Expresses its appreciation to the States, United Nations bodies
and intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations that have
provided assistance to the Palestinian people,
3. Requests the international community, the United Nations system
and intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations to
sustain and increase their assistance to the Palestinian people,
in close cooperation with the Palestine Liberation Organization
(PLO), taking in account the economic losses of the Palestinian
people as a result of the Gulf crisis;
4. Calls for treatment on a transit basis of Palestinian exports
and imports passing through neighbouring ports and points of exit
and entry;
5. Also calls for the granting of trade concessions and concrete
preferential measures for Palestinian exports on the basis of
Palestinian certificates of origin;
6. Further calls for the immediate lifting of Israeli restrictions
and obstacles hindering the implementation of assistance projects
by the United Nations Development Programme, other United Nations
bodies and others providing economic and social assistance to the
Palestinian people in the occupied Palestinian territory;
7. Reiterates its call for the implementation of development
projects in the occupied Palestinian territory, including the
projects mentioned in its resolution 39/223 of 18 December 1984;
8. Calls for facilitation of the establishment of Palestinian
development banks in the occupied Palestinian territory, with a
view to promoting investment, production, employment and income
therein;
9. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the General
The General Assembly at its 47th session, through the Economic and Social
Council, on the progress made in the implementation of the present
resolution.
-----------------------------------------------
In favour 137 countries (Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand,
Japan, Africa, South America, Central America and Asia) Against:
United States and Israel Abstaining: None
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: H.R. violations by Israel/Arab st.
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500360:000:2383
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 24 16:07:00 1993
Lines: 48
Many of you ask me whether I approve of severe human rights
violations by Arab States becuse I focus on Israeli human rights
violations.
Let's make things clear: My opposition to H.R. violations in Arab
States is total and without qualification. No Arab State is and can
claim to be democratic. No Arab state claims to be democratic.
I am born in Palestine (now Israel). I have family there. The lack of
peace and utter injustice in my home country has affected me all my life.
I am concerned by Palestine (Israel) because I want peace to come to
it. Peace AND justice.
If anybody has legitimate claims towards Arab states, he should present
his claims and ask for support. Jews who left Arab states are fully
entitled to make claims and should do so, if they consider their case has
a merit. It is their basic right to return to these countries, if they
wish. If not, they should not complain and compare themselves to the
Palestinians who have been struggling for the right of return since
Israel was established and whose right is upheld by the United Nations
quasi totally. If Jews feel discriminated in Arab countries, they have a
legitimate claim that any decent person can and should support.
Human rights violations by Arab States don't justify, legitimate nor
are the cause for Israeli breaches of international law and human rioghts.
Israeli breaches stem from the Zionist concept, which can only be
implemented by negating basic rights to Palestinians.
Israeli trights and Palestinian rights are not symmetrical. The first
party has a state and the other has none. The first is an occupier and
the second the occupied. For any meaningful relationship to emerge, some
symmetry must be established. As long as Israelis and Jews don't realise
the necessity of a change of perspective towards the Palestinian people
and as long as Israelis and Jews don't want to exorcise their own
past towards the Palestinians (the Naqba of 1948, etc.) and refuse to
acknowledge that the creation of Israel was dependent upon the removal
of most Palestinian Arabs, there will be no base for a real trust.
When I read the first time the list of the 383 Arab villages
destroyed by the State of Israel in and after 1948, I got a shock.
I hope others will be touched by this discovery and think about the
meaning of such massive destruction and destitution.
Elias Davidsson
Iceland
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Desertification of the Negev
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500361:000:5123
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 25 05:25:00 1993
Lines: 104
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Desertification of the Negev
The desertification of the arid Negev
------------------------------------- by Moise Saltiel, I&P March
1990
I.      The Negev Bedouin Before and After 1948 II.     Jewish
Agricultural Settlement in the Negev III.   Development of the
Negev's Rural Population IV.    Economic Situation of Jewish
Settlements in 1990 V.     Failure in Settling the Arava Valley
VI.   Failure in Settling the Central Mountains VII.  Failure in
Making the Negev "Bedouinenrein" (Cleansing the Negev of Bedouins)
VIII. Transforming Bedouin into Low-Paid Workers IX..    Failure
in Settling the "Development Towns" X.      Jordan Water to the
Negev: A Strategic Asset XI.     The Negev Becomes a Dumping
Ground XII.   The Dimona Nuclear Plant XIII.  The Negev as a
Military Base XIV.  The Negev in the Year 2000
Just after the creation of the State of Israel, the phrase "the
Jewish pioneers will make the desert bloom" was trumpeted
throughout the Western world. After the Six Day War in 1967, David
Ben-Gurion declared in a letter to Charles de Gaulle: "It's by our
pioneering creation that we have transformed a poor and arid land
into a fertile land, created built-up areas, towns and villages in
abandoned desert areas".
Contrary to Ben-Gurion's assertion, it must be affirmed that
during the 26 years of the British mandate over Palestine and for
centuries previous, a productive human presence was to be found in
all parts of the Negev desert - in the very arid hills and valleys
of the southern Negev as well as in the more fertile north. These
were the Bedouin Arabs.
The real desertification of the Negev, mainly in the southern
part, occurred after Israel's dispossession of the Bedouin's
cultivated lands and pastures. Nowadays, the majority of the
12,800 square-kilometer Negev, which represents 62 percent of the
State of Israel (pre-1967 borders), has been desertified beyond
recognition. The main new occupiers of the formerly Bedouin Negev
are the Israeli army; the Nature Reserves Authority, whose chief
role is to prevent Bedouin from roaming their former pasture
lands; and vast industrial zones, including nuclear reactors and
dumping grounds for chemical, nuclear and other wastes. Israeli
Jews in the Negev today cultivate less than half the surface area
cultivated by the Bedouin before 1948, and there is no Jewish
pastoral activity.
I. Agricultural and pastoral activities of the Negev Bedouin
before and after 1948
-------------------------------------------------- In 1942,
according to British mandatory statistics, the Beersheba
sub-district (which corresponds more or less to Israel's Negev, or
Southern, district) had 52,000 inhabitants, almost all Bedouin
Arabs, who held 11,500 camels, 6,000 cows and oxen, 42,000 sheep
and 22,000 goats.
The majority of the Bedouin lived a more or less sedentary life in
the north, where precipitation ranged between 200 and 350 mm per
year. In 1944 they cultivated about 200,000 hectares of the
Beersheba district - i.e. 16 percent of its total area and *more
than double the area cultivated by the Negev's Jewish settlers
after 40 years of "making the desert bloom"*
The Bedouin had a very low crop yield - 350 to 400 kilograms of
barley per hectare during rainy years - and their farming
techniques were primitive, but production was based solely on
animal and human labor. It must also be underscored that animal
production, although low, was based entirely on pasturing.
Production increased considerably during the rainy years and
diminished significantly during drought years. All Bedouin pasture
animals - goats, camels and sheep - had the ability to gain weight
quickly over the relatively rainy winters and to withstand many
waterless days during the hot summers. These animals were the
result of a centuries-old process of natural selection in harsh
local conditions.
After the creation of the State of Israel, 80 percent of the Negev
Bedouin were expelled to the Sinai or to Southern Jordan. The
10,000 who were allowed to remain were confined to a territory of
40,000 hectares in a region were annual mean precipiation was 150
mm - a quantity low enough to ensure a crop failure two years out
of three. The rare water wells in the south and central Negev,
spring of life in the desert, were cemented to prevent Bedouin
shepherds from roaming.
A few Bedouin shepherds were allowed to stay in the central Negev.
But after 1982, when the Sinai was returned to Egypt, these
Bedouin were also eliminated. At the same time, strong pressure
was applied on the Bedouin to abandon cultivation of their fields
in order that the land could be transferred to the army.
No reliable statistics exist concerning the amount of land held
today by Negev Bedouin. It is a known fact that a large part of
the 40,000 hectares they cultivated in the 1950s has been seized
by the Israeli authorities. Indeed, most of the Bedouin are now
confined to seven "development towns", or *sowetos*, established
for them.
(the rest of the article is available from Elias Davidsson, email:
elias@ismennt.is)
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Zionism - racism
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500362:000:2842
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 25 05:27:00 1993
Lines: 76
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Zionism - racism
Diaspora 'a cancer'
------------------- by Julian Kossoff and Lindsay Schusman in:
Jewish Chronicle, London, 22. Dec. 1989
Leading Israeli author and cultural commentator, A.B. Yehoshua,
launched a ferocious attack on diaspora Jewry at a Zionist Youth
Council meeting in North London, last week.
The diaspora, he claimed, "was the cancer connected to the main
tissue of the Jewish people". He was scathing about its failure to
act before the Holocaust.
He said the diaspora's religious and secular leadership had
ignored the warning signs in the 1920s, and had fiercely opposed
Zionism. Consequently, he considered the Holocaust, "the failure
of Judaism".
His talk, entitled "Diaspora: A Neurotic Solution", covered 5,000
years of Jewish history.
Mr. Yehoshua's other targets included Soviet Jews who were, he
said "not staying [in Israel], but running [away]", and all Jews
outside Israel "who were using other people's countries like
hotels".
The only conclusion he could draw was that the diaspora was
immoral, because it looked to Israel for its identity but lived
elsewhere.
Worse, it threatened Israel itself, creating a distraction for her
citizens, who were leaving by the thousands.
Mr. Yehoshua, who described himself as "a soldier for aliyah",
ended by calling for the creation of a new "total Jew", living in
Israel.
Earlier, speaking at a meeting of Jewish students on the
difficulties of forging a national identity in Israeli literature,
Mr. Yehoshua claimed that Israeli writers were paralyzed by the
country's political situation.
He said Israel's wars had once provided writers with a vital
source of inspiration.  Today, Israeli writers avoided writing
directly about the Arab-Israeli conflict. No major work had been
produced about the intifada.
Instead, writers were tackling themes such as Jewish identity,
emigration from Israel and personal and family issues.
Mr. Yehoshua admitted he also felt unable to write about the
Israeli political situation. He could no longer step into an
Israeli Arab's shoes and portray him as a real "flesh and blood
character".
He claimed that after 40 years of statehood, the problem of
Israeli identity had not been solved. He said Jews remained too
pre-occupied with the borders of identity between Jew and non-Jew,
and were not concerned with the nature of that identity.
Jewish values in Israel embraced every aspect of daily life,
unlike in the diaspora, where Jews had no responsibility for the
country they lived in, he said.
He warned that modern Hebrew, a unifying force for the Jewish
people, would have to struggle for its future, especially in
literary circles. It faced fierce competition from the English
language.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Poem by Erich Fried
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500363:000:1387
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 25 05:29:00 1993
Lines: 46
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Poem by Erich Fried
Poem by German-Jewish poet Erich Fried (Holocaust survivor)
Ein Jude an die zionistischen Kaempfer - 1988
von Erich Fried
Was wollt ihr eigentlich ?  Wollt ihr wirklich die uebertreffen
die euch niedergetreten haben vor einem Menschenalter in euer
eigenes Blut und in euren eigenen Kot ?
*
Wollt ihr die alten Foltern jetzt an andere weitergeben mit allen
blutigen dreckigen Einzelheiten mit allem brutalen Genuss die
Folterknechte wie unsere Vaeter sie damals erlitten haben ?
*
Wollt jetzt wirklich ihr die neue Gestapo sein die neue Wehrmacht
die neue SA and SS und aus den Palaestinensern die neuen Juden
machen ?
*
Aber dann will auch ich weil ich damals vor fuenfzig Jahren selbst
als ein Judenkind gepeinigt wurde von euren Peinigern ein neuer
Jude sein mit diesen neuen Juden zu denen ihr die Palaestinenser
macht
*
Und ich will sie zurueckfuehren helfen als freie Menschen in ihr
eigenes Land Palaestina aus dem ihr sie vertrieben habt oder in
dem ihr sie quaelt ihr Hakenkreuzlehrlinge ihr Narren und
Wechselbaelge der Weltgeschichte denen der Davidstern auf euren
Fahnen sich immer schneller verwandelt in das verfluchte Zeichen
mit den vier Fuessen das ihr nun nicht sehen wollt aber dessen Weg
ihr heut geht !
------------------------------------------------------
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Organization: MCSNet Contributor, Chicago, IL
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.mcs.com
In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
>article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
>and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....
>
And we all know what an unbiased source the NYT is when it comes to things
concerning Israel.
Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to
recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.  And
finalyy, how does "Federal land" mitigate the offensiveness of this alien
monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money
to a foreign entity?
That "Federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate
Americans or better yet, to house homeless Americans.
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan
Lines: 31
In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Anas Omran writes:
[ANAS] There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
[ANAS] on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
[ANAS] Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis
[ANAS] used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.
[ANAS] So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
[ANAS] They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in
[ANAS] Palestine.
Bring me one case where Israeli Soldiers deliberately killed a "neutral
reporter".  This is another one of your wet dreams.
Unlike many countries, Israel does allow reporters in and out of the O.T.
That is what the problem is. If Israel were a country like China, then
nothing would transpire from what is happening in the O.T. But there
seems to be a proliferation of journalists in Israel always trying to show
how evil the Israeli monster is. Arab countries don't allow journalists
anywhere, we have yet to hear about the massacres of Kurds, the destruction
and annihilation of Hama, the killings of moslem fundamentalists in mosques
in Egypt and Algeria etc... Why is it we only get state reports? How accurate
are they?
Anas, go give a lesson of freedom of speech to your Arab bretheren before
telling us what to do.
Tsiel
--
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Lines: 12
This is nonsense. I lived in the Negev for many years and I can say
for sure that no Beduins were "moved" or harmed in any way. On the
contrary, their standard of living has climbed sharply; many of them
now live in rather nice, permanent houses, and own cars. There are
quite a few Beduin students in the Ben-Gurion university. There are
good, friendly relations between them and the rest of the population.
All the Beduins I met would be rather surprised to read Mr. Davidson's
poster, I have to say.
-Danny Keren.
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #012
Summary: Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 622
Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #012
Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
+---------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                         |
|  I saw a naked girl with her hair down. They were       |
|  dragging her. She kept falling because they were       |
|  pushing her and kicking her. She fell down, it was     |
|  muddy there, and later other witnesses who saw it from |
|  their balconies told us, they seized her by the hair   |
|  and dragged her a couple of blocks, as far as the      |
|  mortgage bank, that's a good block and a half or two   |
|  from here. I know this for sure because I saw it       |
|  myself.                                                |
|                                                         |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
DEPOSITION OF TATYANA MIKHAILOVNA ARUTUNIAN (NEZHINTSEVA)
Born 1932
Train Conductor
Azerbaijani Railroad
Resident at Building 13/15, Apartment 27
Microdistrict No. 3
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]
I hadn't lived very long in Sumgait, only eight years. I moved there from
Novosibirsk. My son entered the Baku Nautical School, and so I transferred
to Azerbaijan. Later I met someone and married him, and now my name is
Arutunian, my husband's name . . .
That there would be a massacre was not discussed openly, but there were hints
and gibes, so to speak, at the Armenian people, and they were mocking the
Russians, too. I was constantly aware of it at work, and not just this past
year. I couldn't find a definite place for myself in the pool at work because
I, I'll just say it, couldn't steal, couldn't deceive, and couldn't be
involved in bribe-taking. And when I asked for decent working conditions they
told me, "Leave, don't keep the others from working, you aren't cut out for
this kind of work." And at work and around all the time I would hear gibes at
the Armenians, like "The Turks had it right, they killed them all--the way
they've multiplied here they're making it hard for us to live," and "Things
will be just fine if we get rid of them all." "No problem, the Turks will
help," they say, "if we ask them, they'll rid Armenia of Armenians in half an
hour." Well that's the way it all was, but I never thought, of course that it
would spill over into a bloody tragedy, because you just couldn't imagine it.
Here we've been living under the Soviet government for 70 years, and no one
even considered such an idea possible.
But I had been forming my own opinions, and in the presence of authoritative
people I would often ask, "Where is this all leading, do people really not see
what kind of situation is emerging here. The Russians are fleeing Sumgait,
there are very few of them left. Why is no one dealing with this, what's going
on?" And when it all happened on the 27th and 28th, it became clear that
everything had been arranged by someone, because what else are you to make of
it if the First Secretary of the City Party Committee is marching ahead of the
demonstration with an Azerbaijani flag? I wouldn't be saying this now if I
hadn't received personal confirmation from him later. Because when we were
under guard in the SK club on the 1st, he came to the club, that Muslimzade.
The women told me, "There he is, there he is, that's Muslimzade." I didn't
believe the rumors that he had carried an Azerbaijani flag. I thought that
they were just false rumors. I went over to him and said, "Are you the First
Secretary of our City Party Committee?" He answers me, "Yes." And I ask him,
"Tell me, did you really march ahead of that gang carrying an Azerbaijani
flag, and behind you they were carrying denigrating signs, I don't know
exactly what they said, but there was mention of Armenian blood?" And he tells
me, "Yes, I was there, but I tried to dissuade them from it." Then I asked him
another question: "And where were you when they were burning and slaughtering
us? And he said, "I. . . We didn't know what to do, we didn't know, we didn't
anticipate that that would happen in Sumgait."
Comrade Mamedov, the First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the
Azerbaijani SSR, answered the same question for me: "No, we actually didn't
anticipate the slaughter in Sumgait. At that time we were trying to contain
the crowd of 45,000 in Baku that was preparing for a massacre." Those are his
exact words, the ones he said in the office of the Council of Ministers of the
Armenian SSR.
And now, about the events themselves. Of course it's painful to discuss them,
because it may seem that it's not true to someone else. Various rumors
concerning what happened are making the rounds: some are true, others aren't.
But unfortunately there are more true ones than false, because it was so
horrible: in our age, here in the space age, the age of science, the age of
progress, I don't know, if someone had told me this story, if I were living in
or around Moscow, I wouldn't have believed it. Why not? Because it was really
a genocide, it was a massacre. That's genuinely what it was.
For example, on that day, the 28th--I didn't know about the 27th because my
husband and I were both sick, both of us had the flu, and we were in bed--on
the 28th our neighbor comes to our place and says, "You're in bed? You don't
know anything about it? There was a demonstration in town, and after it they
were overturning Armenian cars and burning them. They were looking into cars
and asking, 'Are you an Armenian?' If they answered in Armenian, then they
turned the car over and burned it." This isn't made up, the wife of the Senior
Investigator of the Baku Ministry of Internal Affairs told us. He was
returning home from his dacha with his wife, Raisa Sevastyanova, she's my
neighbor. She immediately came and told LIS that they had landed right in the
middle of it, I don't know what to call it, the cavalcade of automobiles they
were stopping. He answered in Azerbaijani, they let them go, but they made him
honk the horn, they were kicking up a fracas. We didn't even believe it, and
I said, "Certainly that didn't happen, how can that be?" And she said,
"Muslimzade was leading the crowd, and the Sputnik store was completely
smashed because most of the salespeople there are Armenians. And when he saw
that they had started breaking the glass in that store, he said, "Don't break
the shop windows, don't destroy state property, but do whatever else you want.
" I didn't hear this with my own two ears, but it is a fact that the store was
torn up and the director of the store was beaten for employing Armenians
although he's an Azerbaijani.
While we were talking, all of a sudden right across from us . . . Sevastyanova
is the first to look out the window and say, "Look, there's a crowd out
there." And sure enough, when we looked out there we saw that the crowd had
already started wrecking the neighboring building. There was an Armenian
family there, a woman and two girls. They lived across from us. I'm sorry, I
don't know the building number or the people's names, since we were in my
husband's apartment, in Microdistrict 8, and I lived in Microdistrict No. 3.
There was awful looting going on there at the time, the most hideous things
were going on there then. One building there, ours, was attacked twice, once
wasn't enough for them. They returned to the places where they hadn't finished
the Armenians off. If an Azerbaijani family dared to conceal Armenians, they
beat the Azerbaijanis too. They also beat Russians, if it was Russians doing
the hiding. Because there were Russians among them, they said so on
television, there were people of various nationalities. But they didn't tell
us why there were people of different nationalities. Because they wouldn't
have touched the Azerbaijanis if they hadn't dared to stick up for the
Armenians and give them temporary shelter in their homes.
At the time I saw this from the window I was there, Sevastyanova was there,
and so was my husband. We went out onto the balcony and saw a television fly
off a balcony. All kinds of things, even a sofa. Then, when it was all down
there, they burned it up. Then we saw the crowd, and they were all oohing. At
first I couldn't figure out what was happening. And later I told my husband,
"Lendrush, l think they're beating someone out there." And he answered, "I
don't know, could be." Suddenly the crowd separated for a moment, and I saw
it, and Raisa Sevastyanova saw it too. My husband had turned the other way,
he didn't see it. I saw a naked girl with her hair down. They were dragging
her. She kept falling because they were pushing her and kicking her. She fell
down, it was muddy there, and later other witnesses who saw it from their
balconies told us, they seized her by the hair and dragged her a couple of
blocks, as far as the mortgage bank, that's a good block and a half or two
from here. I know this for sure because I saw it myself.
Then the crowd rushed toward our building. We were standing there, and you can
of course imagine what we were feeling. Were they going to kill us or not? And
I also had the awful thought that they might torment me the way they tormented
that woman, because I had just seen that.
I asked my husband. I gave him an axe and said, "You kill me first, and then
let them do what they want with the corpse." But our neighbors, it's true,
defended us, they said, "There aren't any Armenians in our entryway, go away,
only Muslims live here." Disaster missed us that time.
But at two o'clock in the morning a crowd of about 15 people, approximately,
came back to our place. My husband was already asleep. He can sleep when he's
upset about something, but I can't. I was standing, running from balcony to
balcony. Our power was out, I don't remember for how long, but it was as
though it had been deliberately turned off. There were no lights whatsoever,
and I was glad, of course. I thought it was better that way. But then I look
and the crowd is at our balcony. This was at 2:15 in the morning. The first
time they were at our building it was 6:30, and now it was 2:15 in the
morning. But I never thought that that old woman on the first floor, the
Azerbaijani, was awake and watching out, there were human beings among them
too. So she goes out with a pail of garbage, as though she needed to be taking
garbage out at two o'clock in the morning. She used it as a pretext and went
toward those young people. They really were youngsters. From my balcony you
could see perfectly that they were young Azerbaijani boys. They spoke
Azerbaijani. And when they came up to her she said, "What do you want?" And
they answered, "We want the Armenian family that lives here" [pointing toward
the second floor with their hands]. She says, "I already told you, we don't
have any Armenians here, now leave, do you hear, this is an old Muslim woman
talking to you," and grabbed the hand of one boy who was trying to walk around
her and enter the building anyway and started pushing him away. And so they
seemed to listen to her. They were all very young, they started apologizing
and left. That was the second time death was at our door.
I forgot to mention about one other apartment, a man named Rubik lives there,
I don't know him really, I knew his daughter, I mean I saw her around, but we
really didn't know them. But I do know that that guy who lives on the fourth
floor across from our entryway went to Chernobyl and worked there for eight
months, to earn money. Can you imagine what that means? He risked his life to
earn X amount of money in order to better his family. He bought new furniture
and was getting ready to give his daughter's hand in marriage, but, alas,
everything was ruined by those creeps and scoundrels. They threw everything
out the windows, and the rest we saw from our balcony: how the neighbors on
the left and right ran into the apartment and carried off everything that
hadn't already been smashed or taken. What is one to think of that? It means
that the parents in those families were in on it too. Unfortunately I came to
be of the opinion that it was all organized and that everything had been
foreseen in advance: both the beating of the Armenians and the stripping of
apartments. Something on the order of "We'll move the Armenians out and take
over their apartments."
I have worked honestly my whole life, you can check everything about me. I
came as a patriot from China, waited for nights on end in front of the
Consulate General of the USSR, I came to my homeland as a patriot because I
knew that the Party and the Komsomol were holy things. But when I saw in
Sumgait that there wasn't anything holy about them, that Party membership was
bought, that Komsomol members joined only for personal gain, that there were
no ideals, no ideas, God save me, everything was being bought and sold, I saw
all of it and understood how they could allow that crap to go on like it did.
I can't talk any more about it . . . the image of that beating . . . When I
went out of my own apartment--they picked us up under Soviet Army guard, they
had arrived from all over to suppress that gang--not only Armenians, but some
Russian families and their children, too, came out of their apartments and
joined us, because no normal person who had seen that could stay there with
the situation the way it was. And what's interesting is that when we left on
the buses I rode and thought that at least one group of people, for sure
people would basically rise to the situation, would have some compassion for
the Armenians, would somehow understand the injustice of what was done. But
having analyzed and weighed the whole thing, once I calmed down, having
thought it all through, I came to a conclusion that is shared by many people.
If a lot of Azerbaijanis didn't want their Armenian neighbors to be killed,
and that basically depended on that Muslimzade--he said that he had wanted to
calm them down--then is it possible that he didn't have people at hand to whom
he could whisper at the last minute, "Go and announce it on television:
Citizens of Sumgait! Take what you can into your hands, let's protect our
neighbors from this massacre?" Those crowds weren't such that there was no
controlling them. Basically they were unarmed. They didn't have firearms,
mostly they had knives, they had all kinds of metal parts, like armature
shafts, sharpened at the ends, special rocks, different to a degree that we
noticed them: there aren't rocks like those in Sumgait soils, they were
brought from somewhere, as though it were all specially planned. So as I was
saying, I weighed it all out and if any of our neighbors had wanted to defend
us, why wasn't it arranged? It means that the government didn't want to do
it. When the crowd was moving from the City Party Committee to the Sputnik,
what, there was no way of informing Baku? No, there was no way, it turns out!
The crowd was doing violence in our microdistrict. I won't mention the things
I didn't see myself, I'll only talk about the things I myself witnessed. They
were in Microdistrict 8 beginning at 6 o'clock in the evening, when I saw them
from the other building, and they were somewhere else until mid-night or one
o'clock in the morning, because at 2:15 they came back to our building. They
hadn't completely finished making their predatory rounds of Microdistrict 8.
When they returned to our building I told my husband, "Lendrush, now the
police are probably going to come, my God, now the authorities are probably
going to find out and come to our aid." Well, alas, no, there were to be no
authorities, not a single policeman, not a single fireman, not a single
ambulance came while they were raging, as it turns out, as we later found out,
beginning on the Might of the 27th. There were dead people, ruined apartments,
and burned autos: one car near the bus station, it was burned and overturned,
it was probably there about four days, everyone saw it and what went on in
Block 45! Those who live there know, they saw from their balconies how they
attacked the soldiers in the buses, how they beat those poor, unarmed
soldiers, and how on that square, I can't remember the name of it, where there
is that fork coming from the bus station, that intersection, now I'm upset and
I can't think of the name . . . there's a tall building there, a 9-story, and
from the balconies there people saw that butchery, when the poor soldiers,
wearing only helmets, with shields and those unfortunate clubs, moved against
that mob. And when they fell, those 12-to 14-year-old boys ran up and using
stones, big heavy stones, beat them to death on their heads. Who could have
guessed that something like that could happen in the Soviet Union and under
the Soviet government? The upshot is that this republic has not been under
Soviet control for a long time, but no one wanted to pay any attention or get
involved.
If you were to go and ask at my work many people would confirm that I tell the
truth, I've been struggling for truth for five years there already, the five
years that I worked at the Azerbaijani railroad. Some people there considered
me a demagogue, others who knows what; some think I'm an adventure seeker, and
some, a prankster. But I wanted everything to be right, I would become
outraged: how can this be, why is it people treat one another this way on a
Soviet railroad, as though the Azerbaijani railroad were Azerbaijani property,
or the property of some magnate, or some "mafia": If I want to, I'll get you
out of here; If I want to, I'll get rid of you; If I want to, I'll do
something else? And there's a black market price for everything, in the most
brazen way: a coach to Moscow costs so much, a coach on a local train costs so
much. Once when I was complaining to the head of the conductor's pool, he had
the nerve to tell me, maybe you won't even believe this, but this, I'm afraid,
I heard with my own ears: "Tatyana, just how long can you fight for something
that you know will never have any effect? You're alone against everyone, so
instead why don't you give more money to the chief conductor, and everything
will go fine for you." I started to cry, turned, and left. What else could I
do, where else could I go to complain? I realized that everything was useless.
And the root of the whole thing is that it all goes on and no one wants to see
it. I filed a written complaint, and they ground it into dust, they destroyed
it, I still have a copy, but what's the use? When the General Procuracy got
involved with the investigation of the bloody Sumgait affair, in addition to
the information about what I saw, what I was a witness to, I gave testimony
about the mafia at the railroad. They accepted my petition, but I don't know
if they're going to pursue it or not. Because, you'll excuse me, I no longer
believe in the things I aspired to, the things I believed in before: It's all
dead. They just spit on my soul, stomped on everything, physically, and most
important, spiritually, because you can lose belongings, that's nonsense, that
all comes with time, but when your soul is spit upon and when the best in
you--your beliefs--are destroyed, it can be very difficult to restore them...
I want to tell of one incident. I just don't know, at the time I was in such a
state that I didn't even take minor things into account. Here is an example.
Of course, it's not a minor one. My neighbor, Raisa Sevastyanova, she has a
son, Valery, who is in the 9th grade in a school in Microdistrict 8. A boy,
Vitaly [Danielian], I don't know his last name, goes to school with him, or
rather, went to school with him. I was just sitting in an apartment trying to
make a phone call to Moscow . . . Oh yes, and there's one important detail:
When the massacre began, for two to three hours the phones weren't working in
Armenian apartments, and later, in several Russian and Azerbaijani apartments.
But the fact of the matter is that service was shut off, you could not call
anywhere. Why? Again, it means it was all planned. How come service is cut off
for no reason? And the lights went off. And those brats were raging as they
liked They weren't afraid, they ran about freely, they that no one would slap
their hands and no one would dare to stop them.  They knew it.
Now I'm going to tell about the incident. So this little Vitaly, Vitalik, an
Armenian boy, went to school with Valery; they were in the same class.
According to what Valery and his neighbor pal said--at the time I was in the
same apartment as they were, I sat at the phone waiting for the call to be put
through--a mob attacked the building where Vitalik lived. So Valery ran to
his mother and said, "Mamma, please let me go to Vitalik's, what if they kill
him? Maybe he's still alive, maybe we can bring him here and save him somehow.
. . . He's a nice guy, we all like him, he's a good person, he's smart." His
mother wouldn't let him go. In tears, she says, "Valery, you can't go because
I am afraid." He says, "Mamma, we can get around the crowd. We'll just watch,
just have a look." They made it through. I don't know, I think Vitalik's
parents lived in Microdistrict No. 1, and when they got there, they made a
superficial deduction. Knowing that balconies and doors were being broken
everywhere, that you could see from the street which were the Armenian
apartments in the building, they went here and there and looked, and saw that
the windows were intact, and so they calmed down. But even though the windows
in that apartment were not broken, everything inside was totally smashed, and
Vitalik lay there with a broken skull, and his mother and father had already
been murdered. Little Vitalik didn't even know they were dead. So two weeks
ago, I don't know, he was in critical condition, no, maybe it was longer: we
left Sumgait on March 20, spent some time in Moscow, and then we came to
Yerevan. So it's been about a month already; it's so hard to keep all this
straight. So Valery, the next day, when he found out that Vitalik's family has
been killed and Vitalik was ling in the Semashko Hospital in Baku, Valery and
his classmates got together and went to visit him. But they wouldn't admit
them, telling them that he was in critical condition and that he was still in
a coma. They cried and left, having also found out that the girl I saw being
kicked and dragged was in that hospital too. As it turns out she was brought
there in serious condition, but at least she was alive at the time . . .
When we got to the SK club we would see first one friend and then another,
throw ourselves into their arms and kiss them, because you had wondered if
these friends were alive or not, if those friends were alive or not  . . . And
when you saw them you were so glad to find out that the family had lived! When
you saw people you heard things that made your hair stand on end.
If you publish everything that happened it will be a hideous book. A book of
things it is even difficult to believe. And those two girls who were raped
were entirely black and blue, the ones at the SK, they know I'm not lying,
that girlfriend came up to one of them and said, "What happened?" and she
bared her breasts, and they were completely covered in cigarette burns . . .
those rogues had put cigarettes out on her breasts. After something like that
I don't know how you can live in a city and look at the people in it.
Now . . . When we stayed at the military unit for a while, they provided,
well, basic conditions for us there. The military unit is located in Nasosny,
some six miles from Sumgait. And living there we met with a larger group
of people. There were about 1,600 people at the unit. You know, there was a
point when I couldn't even go outside because if you went outside you saw
so much heartbreak around you. And when you hear the false rumors . . .
Yes, by the way, false rumors were spread in Sumgait saying that the Armenians
around Yerevan had destroyed Azerbaijani villages and razed them to the ground
with bulldozers. I didn't know whether to believe it or not. And people who
don't know any better get the idea that it was all done in revenge. But when
I arrived in Armenia and was in Spitak, and in Spitak all those villages are
not only intact, but at that time had even been protected just in case, they
were guarded, they got better food than did the inhabitants of Spitak. Not a
single person there died, and no one is planning to harm them. Around Yerevan
all the villages are safe and unharmed, and the Armenians didn't attack
anyone. But actually, after an evil of the magnitude suffered in Sumgait there
could have been a feeling of vengefulness, but no one acted on it. And I don't
know why you sometimes hear accusations to the effect that the Armenians are
guilty, that it is they who organized it. Rumors like that are being spread in
Azerbaijan. And if one old person says it and ten young ones hear it, they not
only perceive it with their minds, but with their hearts, too. To them it
seems that the older person is telling the truth. For example, one says; "Did
you know that out of 31 people killed (by the way, originally they said 31
people, but later they found a 32nd), 30 were Azerbaijani and one was an
Armenian?"
Of course I'm upset, but it's utterly impossible to discuss such things and
not become upset. Sometimes l forget things, but I know I want to return to
the time when we were in the SK club across from the City Party Committee.
When I saw Muslimzade in the SK club building I went to him to ask because I
couldn't believe that he had marched in the front carrying a banner. I already
mentioned this, and if I repeat anything, please excuse me. I asked him, "Why
did you do that and why are you here now, why did you come here? To laugh at
these women who are strewn about on the floor?" The overcrowding there was
tremendous, it was completely unsanitary, and several of the children were
already sick. It's true the troops tried to make it livable for us. They
cooked for us on their field stoves and provided us with wonderful food, but
the thing is that their main job was to ferret out the gang that was still at
it everywhere, that was continuing its sordid affairs everywhere. Plus they
were never given any direct orders, they didn't know what they were authorized
to do and not to do. And it was only on March 8 at five o'clock in the evening
that Krayev himself, the Lieutenant General, the City Commandant of Sumgait,
was given full authority and told everyone over a microphone from an armored
personnel carrier that now he could do what he wanted to do, as his heart
advised him, and relocate people to the military unit.
But that's not what I want to talk about now. Muslimzade, characteristically,
tried to get me out of the SK building and take me to the City Party
Committee, which is across the square from the club. He took me by the
hand and said, "Citizen, don't worry, we'll go and have a talk in my office.
I told him, "No, after everything you've done, I don't believe one iota of
what you say. If I go to the City Party Committee I'll disappear, and the
traces of me will disappear too. Because you can't stand it when . . . " Oh
yes, and there was another interesting detail from that meeting. It was even
very funny, although at the time I wasn't up to laughing. He was in a nice,
expensive hat, and so as to put him to shame, so to speak, I said, "Oh, why
did you come here all duded up like a London dandy, you smell of good perfume,
you're in your starched shirt, and you have your expensive hat on. You came
to ridicule the poor women and children who are lying on the floor, who are
already getting sick, whose relatives have died. Did you come to laugh at
them?" And the one who was accompanying him, an Azerbaijani, I don't know who
he was or what his title was, he quickly snatched the hat off Muslimzade's head
and hid it. Then I said, "My God! We're not marauders. We're not you! We
didn't come to you with the intention of stealing!" "Well kill me, kill me!"
Muslimzade says to me, "But I'm not guilty . . . kill me, kill me, but I'm not
guilty." And I say, "OK, fine, you're not guilty, have it your way. But give
us an answer, we're asking you: Where were you when they were torturing and
raping those poor women, when they were killing the children, burning things,
carrying on outrageously, and wrecking all those apartments? Where were you
then?" "You know, we didn't expect it, we did not know what to do, we didn't
anticipate that something like that would happen in Sumgait." I started
laughing and said, "It's truly funny." He says, "What could I do? We didn't
know what to do." And I say, "I'm sorry, but it'll be ridiculous if I tell
you: The First Secretary of the City Party Committee shouldn't march out in
front with a banner; he should fall down so that the gang would have to cross
over his dead body. That's what you should have done. That's the way it was
during the war. Not a single party committee secretary compromised himself;
either he died or he led people into battle. And what did you do? You ran
away, you left, you hid, you marched with a flag, because you were afraid,
excuse my language, you feared for your own damned hide. And when we ask you,
you tell us that you got confused and you ask me what you could have done?
That's right," I told him, "the City party committee got confused, all the
party committees got confused, the police got confused,. Baku got confused,
they all lay in a faint for two weeks, and the gang ran the show with
impunity. And if it weren't for the troops it wouldn't have been just two
days, there wouldn't be a single Armenian left in Sumgait for sure, they would
have finished their bloody affair, because they brazenly went up to some
Russians, too, the ones who tried to say something to them, and they told
them, 'As soon as we finish with the Armenians we'll come after you, too."
And by the way, there was a colonel, who took us to the military unit. He was
the one with the light blue collar tabs who flew in and two hours later
arrived on an armored personnel carrier when we were at the  SK and took us to
the military unit and who later started moving us from the military unit. We
asked him, "What? How? What will come of us?" He openly said, "You know, for
us the main thing now is to catch that gang. We'll finish that quickly. You'll
stay at the military unit for the time being, and we'll decide later." The
General Procuracy of the USSR arrived, it consists of investigators from all
cities. There were some from Stavropol, from everywhere, just everywhere, because
the affair was truly frightful. About this, by the way, Comrade Katusev spoke;
as everyone knows, he's the First Deputy General Procurator of the USSR. When
he gave us a speech from the armored personnel carrier at the military unit,
by the way, he told us the honest truth, because he couldn't not say it,
because he was still experiencing his first impressions of what he had seen,
and he said, "There was Afghanistan; and it was bad, but Sumgait--it's
horrible! And the people who dared to do such a thing will be severely
punished, in accordance with our laws." And that's a quote. Then one mother
throws herself at him--her two sons had died before her very eyes--and says,
"Who will return my sons? Who is going to punish the [culprits]?" They tried
to calm her down, and he said, "In order for us to conduct a proper
investigation, in order that not a single scoundrel avoid responsibility, you
must help us, because we don't know, maybe there was someone else in the gang
who is now being concealed in homes, and maybe the neighbors know, maybe
someone saw something. Don't be afraid, write about it in detail. So that
you're not afraid . . . Everyone knows that many of you are afraid, having
lived through such horrors, they think that if they write the whole truth
about, let's say, their neighbor or someone else, that they will seek revenge
later. We're going to do it like this: We're going to set up an urn and you
can throw what you write in there. We don't need to know who wrote it. The
names of the people who write won't be made public, but we need all the
information. Let each and every one not be afraid, let each write what is
necessary, who they saw in that gang, who made threats or shouted threatening
gibes about the Armenians . . . You must describe all of these people and put
the information into the urn."
Two soldiers and a major guarded the urn. And, sure enough, many people,
people who didn't even want to write . . .I know one woman who asked me, she
came up and said, "You, as a Russian, the same thing won't happen to you as
will happen to me. So please . . . I'll give you the information, and you
please write it down for me." So she was afraid, and there were a lot like
her . . . But later, after Katusev made his speech, she sat and wrote down
everything she knew. And we threw it all into the urn. Now we don't know if
it will be of any use. For a factual picture will emerge from all that
information. One person can lie, but thousands can't lie, thousands simply
can't lie. You have to agree with that, a fact is a fact. Why, for example,
should someone say that black is white if it is really black?
The First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Azerbaijani
SSR, Mamedov, as I said, was in Yerevan. My husband and I were at the Council
of Ministers of the Armenian SSR and found out that Mamedov was present, the
one who had come to convince the people of Sumgait to  return to their
previous dwellings, to their old apartments. We asked for a meeting with him,
and it was granted. When we went to see him he tried to behave properly, very
politely, delicately, but . . . when the truth was told right to his face and
when I asked him some of the same questions I had asked Muslimzade, "Where were
you personally when they were beating us? Now you're trying to convince us to
return, why didn't you think at the time that they were slaughtering us where
it was all leading?" he says, "You're telling the truth. Let's not mince
words. You've told me right to my face, and I'll tell you straight. I'll tell
you the pure truth. I was gotten out of bed in the evening, the whole
government was up, including me, and we were restraining a crowd of about
45,000 in Baku. But we never expected that in a city like Sumgait, with its
fine international record, such a thing could happen. We expected it in Baku."
I say, "So that means you expected it all the same? Why were you expecting
it?" And he says, "You know, it just happened that way. We were expecting it
in Baku, we were trying to restrain it, but in Sumgait . . . " I say, "Fine,
you didn't know for the first three or four hours, but then you should have
known. Why did no one help us?" And he says, "Well, OK, we didn't know what to
do" and things like that. Basically it was the same story I got from
Muslimzade. Later, when he said, "You go on back, the situation in Sumgait is
favorable now, everything is fine, the Armenians are friendly with the
Azerbaijanis . . . " To this l answered, "You know what . . . I'm speaking
with you as a [member of a] neutral nation . . . I have never argued with
Armenians or with Azerbaijanis and I was an eyewitness . . . You tell me,
please, Comrade Mamedov, " I asked him, "What would you say about this
honestly, if you were being completely frank with us?" Then he said, "Yes, I
admit that I am honestly ashamed, shame on the entire Azerbaijani nation, we
have disgraced ourselves not only before the entire Soviet Union, but before
the whole world. Because now the Voice of America and all the other foreign
radio stations of various hues are branding us with all kinds of rumors, too."
And I say, "There's nothing to add to what really happened. I don't think it's
possible to add anything more awful." He says, "Yes, I agree with you, I
understand your pain, it is truly an unfortunate occurrence." I repeat that he
said "unfortunate occurrence." And then he suddenly remembered himself, what
he was saying--he had a pen in his hands, he was fidgeting with it nervously--
and said, "Oh, excuse me, a tragedy, really . . . " I take this to mean that
he really thinks it's an "unfortunate occurrence." "And of course," he says,
"I understand that having gone through all this you can't return to Sumgait,
but it's necessary to cool down and realize that all those people are being
tried." And he even gave a detail, which, I don't know if it matters or not,
that 160 policemen were being tried. Specifically in relation to that bloody
affair.
Yes, by the way, there is another good detail, how I was set up at work in
Baku after the events. I went to an undergarment plant, there was an
Azerbaijani working there, and suddenly she tells me, "What, they didn't
nail your husband? They screwed up." I was floored, I hadn't imagined that
anyone in Baku, too, could say something like that. Well after that I went up
to see . . . to my office, I needed to find out about those days, what was
going to happen with them, how they were going to put down those days from
February 29 to March 10 . . . and the administrator told me, "I don't know,
Tatyana, go to the head of the conductors' pool. Be grateful if they don't
put it down as unexcused absence." I was really discouraged by this. They all
know that we were but a hair away from death and barely survived, and here
they're telling me that I was skipping work, as though I was off enjoying
myself somewhere. I went to the office of the chief of the pool, his last name
is Rasulov, and he's had that position for many years. Incidentally, he's a
Party member, and is a big man in town. And suddenly, when I went to him and
said, "Comrade Rasulov, this is the way it was . . . " He looked at me askance
and said, "And why are you"--he knows me by my previous last name--"why did
you get wrapped up in this mess?" I say, "What do you mean, why did I get
wrapped up in this mess? My husband's an Armenian," I tell him, "I have an
Armenian last name." And he screwed up his face, made a kind of a grimace, as
though he had eaten something sour, and said, "I didn't expect that you would
. . . " What did he mean by that? And "how" should he behave, the chief of the
pool, a man who supervises 1,700 workers? Now, it's true, there was a
reduction, but for sure there are still 1,200 conductors working for him. And
if someone who supervises a staff that size says things like that, then what
can you expect from a simple, uneducated, politically unsophisticated person?!
He's going to believe any and all rumors, that the Armenians are like this,
the Armenians are like that, and so on . . .
By the way, that Mamedov--now I'm going back to Mamedov's office when I asked
him "Are you really going to guarantee the safety of our lives if we return
to Sumgait?" he answered, "Yes, you know, I would guarantee them . . . I don't
want to take on too much, I would guarantee them firmly for 50 years. But I
won't guarantee them for longer than 50 years." I say, "So you've got another
thing like that planned for 50 years from  now? So they'll be quiet and then
in another 50 years it'll happen again?!" I couldn't contain myself any more,
and I also told him, "And how did it get to that point, certainly you knew
about it, how they were treating the Russians, for example, in Baku and in
Sumgait, how they were hounded from their jobs? Certainly you received
complaints, I wrote some myself. Why did no one respond to them? Why did
everyone ignore what was going on? Didn't you prepare people for this by the
way you treated them?" And he says, "You know, you're finally starting to
insult me!" He threw his pen on the desk. "Maybe now you'll say I'm a
scoundrel too?" I say, "You know, I'm not talking about you because I don't
know. But about the ones who I do know I can say with conviction, yes, that
comrade was involved in this, that, and that, because I know for certain.
"Well anyway he assured us that here, in Yerevan, there were false rumors,
that 3,000 Sumgait Armenians were here, and 15,000 were in Sumgait and had
gotten back to work. Everyone was working, he said, and life was very good.
"We drove about the town ourselves, Comrade Arutiunian [First Secretary of
the Communist Party of Armenia SSR] came from the Council of Ministers of
Armenian, he came and brought information showing that everything was fine in
Sumgait." When I asked Mamedov how he had reached that conclusion he said, '
"Well, I walked down the street." And I said, "Walking down the street in any
city, even if I were to go to New York, I would never understand the situation
because I would be a guest, I don't have any contact with people, but if you
spend 10 days among some blue-collar workers in such a way that they didn't
know you were the First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers, you'd
hear something quite different." I told him, for example, that I drew my
conclusion when we left the military unit to look at our apartments. They took
us all in turns to pick things up, since people had fled to the military unit;
they got on the bus just to save themselves as soon as possible. How are the
neighbors in the microdistrict, how will they view us, what do they think? I
thought maybe that in fact it wasn't something general, of a mass nature, some
anti-national something. And when that bus took us to our building, because it
was the same bus, while we were going up to our apartment, an armed soldier
accompanied us. What does that say? It speaks of the fact that if everything
there were fine, why do we need to have soldiers go there and come back with
us, going from apartment to apartment? And in fact, especially with the young
people, you could sense the delight at our misfortune, the grins, and they
were making comments, too. And that was in the presence of troops, when police
detachments were in the microdistricts and armored personnel carriers and
tanks were passing by. And if people are taking such malicious delight when
the situation is like that, then what is it going to be like when they
withdraw protection from the city altogether? There will be more outrages, of
course, perhaps not organized, but in the alleys . . .
April 20, 1988
Yerevan
- - - reference - - -
[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 166-177
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Absood
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 11
To my fellow Columbian, I must ask, why do you say that I engage
in fantasies?  Arafat is a terrorist, who happens to have
a lot of pull among Palestinians.  Can we ignore the two facts?
I doubt it.
Peace, roar lion roar, and other niceties,
Pete
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Lines: 23
ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	I have just started reading the articles in this news
>group. There seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet
>other members with scare tactics. I believe one posting said
>that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his
>server who keeps a file on him in hope that "Appropriate action
>might be taken".
>	I don't know where you guys are from but in America
>such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
>not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
>regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
>repressive ideals back to where you came from.
Freedom of speech does not mean that others are compelled to give one
the means to speak publicly.  Some systems have regulations
prohibiting the dissemination of racist and bigoted messages from
accounts they issue.
Apparently, that's not the case with virginia.edu, since you are still
posting.
--
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Argic
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 13
In article <dj80734@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com> cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson) writes:
>You definetly are in need of a shrink, loser!
Hey cheesedicks, stop sending messages to a guy who's not going to
read them.  And who cares anyway?
From: pmm7@ellis.uchicago.edu (peggy boucher murphy (you had to ask?))
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Reply-To: pmm7@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Lines: 21
In article <SMITH.93Apr21183049@minerva.harvard.edu> Steven Smith writes:
>dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>>     THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>>
>>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>>
>> [Holocaust revisionism]
>>
>> Theodore J. O'Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical
>> Review.  Educated at Harvard University . . .
>
>According to the 1990 Harvard Alumni Directory, Mr. O'Keefe failed to
>graduate.  You may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated
>anywhere.
(forgive any inaccuracies, i deleted the original post)
isn't this the same person who wrote the book, and was censured
in canada a few years back?
peg
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Who should be spied on...
Keywords: hypocritical pig
Nntp-Posting-Host: qso.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 49
In article <C5vzDv.Mxw.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>In article <C5sDCK.38n@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>>
>>>In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>>>The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
>>>>of those files.
>>>>So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
>>>>1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?
>>
>>>ADL authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including
>>>the millions of Americans of Arab ancestry.  Perhaps you can answer
>>>the question as to why the ADL maintained files and spied on ADC members
>>>in California (and elsewhere??)?  Friendly rivalry perhaps?
>>
>>Come on!  Most if not all Arabs are sympathetic to the Palestinian war
>>against Israel.  That is why the ADL monitors Arab organizations.  That is
>>the same reason the US monitored communist organizations and Soviet nationals
>>only a few years ago.
>>
>
>The ADC is an organization of Arab-*AMERICANS*.
>
>Let me see...you're saying that "most if not all" Arab-AMERICANS should be
>spied on?  You're also saying that "most if not all" Arab-AMERICANS
>should be views as a national security threat to Israel (and the US,
>as you gratuitously imply in your reference to the WTC bombing, in
>which no Arab-AMERICANS were involved)?  By inference, can we assume
>that you think that anyone of Arab lineage anywhere in the world poses
>a threat to Israel and, therefore, should be spied on?
Like it or not, Edward, Anwar has a very good, valid point.  Obviously,
in presenting it, he (quite legitimately and deliberately) takes a point
of view to an extreme which might not have been what you intended, but
that is one of the best ways to demonstrate a "slippery slope" type of
argument, which I believe was his aim.
I very frankly believe that the ADL will be proved innocent in this
case.  I doubt there's enough evidence to weigh against them even in a
civil court, where preponderance of the evidence, not evidence beyond
any reasonable doubt, is the standard for "winning" such a case.  That,
however, does not prevent me from seeing the merit in Anwar's point.
Rest deleted.
--
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu>
Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Nntp-Posting-Host: bellini.berkeley.edu
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
Lines: 9
In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
>s well as jewish religion, among others.  Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
>k Shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the
> way Abdul Nidal does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
>ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.
What gives the United States the right to keep Washington D.C.?
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.jcpl.co.jp (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Hamza does it again.
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan
Lines: 18
Hamza answers one of my articles:
[TO] If indeed Israeli soldiers killed a "Hamas Mujahid" with an anti-tank
[TO] missile then I'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not
[TO] have been able to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the
[TO] missile.
[Hamza] maybe the missile didn't hit directly such that his body
[Hamza] gets "desintegrated."  of course, destroying 10 houses to
[Hamza] kill someone is not a surgical operation, or is it?
Well done Hamza. You edited my answer to Anas Omran, took everything out
of context and then replied to it the way you wanted.
Now I really understand why the peace process is not making any progress.
You guys ain't listening, just babbling away to your same old rhetoric.
Tsiel
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Lines: 46
In article <22APR199307534304@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>> [I said the fixation on Bosnia is due to it being in a European country,
>>  rather than the third world]
>>I recall, before we did anything for Somalia, (apparent) left-wingers saying
>>that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to Bosnia than to
>>Somalia was because the Somalis are third-worlders who Americans consider
>>unworthy of help.  They suddenly shut up when the US decided to send troops to
>>the opposite place than that predicted by the theory.
>I am a staunch Republican, BTW.  The irony of arguing against military
>intervention with arguments based on Vietnam has not escaped me.  I was opposed
>to US intervention in Somalia for the same reasons, although clearly it was
>not nearly as risky.
Based on the same reasons?  You mean you were opposed to US intervention in
Somalia because since Somalia is a European country instead of the third world,
the desire to help Somalia is racist?  I don't think this "same reason" applies
to Somalia at all.
The whole point is that Somalia _is_ a third world country, and we were more
willing to send troops there than to Bosnia--exactly the _opposite_ of what
the "fixation on European countries" theory would predict.  (Similarly, the
desire to help Muslims being fought by Christians is also exactly the opposite
of what that theory predicts.)
>>For that matter, this theory of yours suggests that Americans should want to
>>help the Serbs.  After all, they're Christian, and the Muslims are not.  If
>>the desire to intervene in Bosnia is based on racism against people that are
>>less like us, why does everyone _want_ to help the side that _is_ less like us?
>>Especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think?
>Well, one thing you have to remember is, the press likes a good story.   Good
>for business, don't you know.  And BTW, not "everyone" wants to help the
>side that is less like us.
I'm referring to people who want to help at all, of course.  You don't see
people sending out press releases "help Bosnian Serbs with ethnic cleansing!
The Muslim presence in the Balkans should be eliminated now!"  (Well, except
for some Serbs, but I admit that the desire of Serbs in America to help the
Serbian side probably _is_ because those are people more like them.)
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
-- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)
Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science
Lines: 21
In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
>
>Esin Terzioglu]  Your ignorance is obvious from your posting.
>Esin Terzioglu]  1) Cyprus was an INDEPENDENT country with Turkish/Greek
>		    inhabitants (NOT a Greek island like your ignorant
>			posting claims)
>Esin Terzioglu]  2) The name should be Cyprus (in English)
>Esin Terzioglu]  next time read and learn before you post.
>
>
>
>Aside from spelling , why is that you TURKS DO NOT want to admit your
>past MISTAKES ? You know TURKISH INVASION of CYPRUS was a mistake and too
>bad that U.N. DID NOT do anything about it. You may ask : mistake ?
>Yes, I would say. Why is that the GREEKS DID NOT INVADE CYPRUS ?
>
The Greeks did try to invade Cyprus just before the Turkish intervention: They
failed. Just for your info.
Esin.
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems
Keywords: philosphy, Greece, Persians, math
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 366
From: _Quantum_ Magazine, March/April 1993 pages 42-46
The Problem Book of Anania of Shirak
------------------------------------
"On the ancient peak of Ararat
The centuries have come like seconds
And passed on."
-Avetik Issahakian
by Yuri Danilov
Some years ago Journalists interviewing celebrities liked to ask them: "What
books would you take with you if you were to go off on a space flight?" And
though the number of books allowed on the trip varied from 10 to 30,
depending on the type of spacecraft and the generosity of the interviewer,
and celebrities are people of the most varied tastes, ages, and professions,
not one of them dared to say that he or she would want to take with them at
least one book of arithmetic problems.
Some of these people certainly excluded this kind of literature because they
were trained in the humanities and had nothing but scorn for "numbers" (though
secretly afraid of them). Others steered clear of such puzzle books because
they were masters of incomparably more difficult branches of modern
mathematics and didn't mind saying for all the world to hear that they didn't
know how to solve mere arithmetic problems. Professional mathematicians were
no exception. Here's what the Russian mathematician Alexander Khinchin, a
specialist in statistics, wrote about arithmetic: "I willingly confess that
any time a fifth-grader asked me to help solve an arithmetic problem, it was
a hard work for me, and sometimes I failed completely. Of course, like most of
my friends, I could easily solve the problem by the natural algebraic route
--constructing equations or sets of equations. But we were supposed to avoid
using algebraic analysis at all costs! . . . By the way, it's a fact that is
well known and oft repeated that, as a rule, neither high school graduates,
nor students at teaching colleges, nor teachers beginning their careers
(nor, I must add, scientific researchers) can solve arithmetic problems. It
seems the only people in the world who are able to solve them are fifth-grade
teachers."
Now, I'm not insisting that a book of arithmetic problems be included in the
bookbag of anyone flying into space. But a sense of justice induces me to
recommend one particular problem book, one that will satisfy the most
fastidious taste and supply food for thought sufficient not only for a
relatively short flight to the Moon but for a extended space voyage--say, to
Venus and back.
One for the "road"
They both took out the books they brought for the road. Kingsley
glanced at the Royal Astronomer's book and saw a bright cover with
a group of cutthroats shooting at each other with revolvers. "God
knows what this kind of stuff leads to," thought Kingsley.
The Royal Astronomer looked at Kingsley's book and saw the History
of Herodotus. "Good Lord, next he'll be reading Thucydides," thought
the Royal Astronomer.
--Fred Hoyle, The Black Cloud
The book I'm talking about isn't very big, but its 24 problems constitute 24
elegant miniatures from seventh-century Armenia. Naive and wise at the same
time, rich in striking detail and the bright coloration of the period, these
problems are reminiscent of the reliefs on the famous monument of Armenian
architecture, the church on the island of Akhtamar in Lake Van (in what is
now Turkey_. They are as inseparable from the image of Armenia as the elegant
letters of the Armenian alphabet, invented by Mesrop Mashtots, or the songs of
Komitas, or the paintings of Saryan.
An edition of these incredibly beautiful problems has long been a
bibliographic rarity. It was published under the title Problems and Solutions
of Vardapet [1] Anania of Shirak, Armenian Mathematician of the Seventh
Century (translated and published by I. A. Orbeli, Petrograd, 1918).
The abundance of close observations and wide-ranging information about the way
of life and customs of that remote epoch when Anania of Shirak lived and
worked have actually rendered a disservice to his problem book. For many years
the book was known only to researchers in the humanities--specialists in
Armenian history who jealously guarded their treasure and wouldn't let just
anyone see it. Even now, after research by K. P. Patkanov, the learned monk
Father Kaloust, J.I. Orbeli, A. Abramyan, V. K. Chaloyan, and others has
brought the works of Anania of Shirak to light in scholarly circles, the
general reader remains ignorant of the very existence of this remarkable
problem book.
Vardapet Anania of Shirak
Once fell in love with the art of calculation, I thought that no
philosophical notion can be constructed without number, considering
it the mother of all wisdom.
--Anania of Shirak
Among ancient Armenian thinkers, Vardapet Anania of Shirak stands out because
of the breadth of his interests and the unique mathematical orientation of his
work. Some of his works have been preserved. In addition to the Problems and
Solutions, the following tracts have found a special place in the estimation
of scholars: On Weights and Measures, Cosmography and Calendrical Theory, and
Armenian Geography of the Seventh Century A.D. (the authorship of the last
work was long attributed to another outstanding thinker of ancient Armenia,
Movses of Khoren).
In his autobiography, Anania of Shirak has this to say about himself:
I, Anania of Shirak, having studied all the science of our
Armenian land and having learned the Holy Scripture intimately,
in the expression of the psalmist, "every day I illuminated the
eyes of my mind." Feeling myself lacking in the art of calculation,
I came to the conclusion that it is fruitless to study philosophy,
the mother of all sciences, without number. I could find in Armenia
neither a man versed in philosophy nor books that explained the
sciences. I therefore went to Greece and met in Theodosiople a man
named Iliazar who was well versed in ecclesiastical works. He told me
that in Forth Armenia [2] there lived a famous mathematician,
Christosatur. I went this person and spent six months with him. But
soon I noticed that Christosatur was a master not of all science but
only of certain fragmentary facts.
I then went to Constantinople, where I met acquaintances who told me:
"Why did you go so far, when much closer to us, in Trebizon, on the
coast of Pontus [3] lives the Byzantine vardapet Tyukhik. He is full
of wisdom, is known to kings, and knows Armenian literature." I asked
them how they knew this. They answered: "We saw ourselves that many
people traveled long distances to become pupils of so learned a man.
Indeed the archdeacon of the patriarchate of Constantinople,
Philagrus, traveled with us, bringing many young persons to become
pupils of Tyukhik." When I heard this, I expressed my gratitude to
God, who had quenched the thirst of His slave.
I went to Tyukhik at the monastery of St. Eugene and explained why I
had come. He received me graciously and said: "I praise Our Lord that
He sent you to learn and to transplant science in the domain of St.
Gregory; I am glad that all your country will learn from me. I myself
lived in Armenia for many years as a youth. Ignorance reigned there."
Vardapet Tyukhik loved me as a son and shared all his thoughts with
me. The Lord bestowed upon me His blessing: I completely assimilated
the science of number, and with such success that my fellow students
at the king's court began to envy me.
I spent eight years with Tyukhik and studied many books that had not
been translated into our language. For the vardapet had an innumerable
collection of books: secret and explicit, ecclesiastical and pagan,
books on art, history, and medicine, books of chronologies. Why
enumerate them by title? In a word, there is no book that Tyukhik did
not have. And he had such a gift from the Holy Spirit for translating
that when he sat down to translate something from the Greek into
Armenian, he did not struggle as other translators did, and the
translation read as if the work were written in that language
originally.
Tyukhik told me how he had achieved such vast erudition and how he had
learned the Armenian language. "When I was young," he said, "I lived
in Trebizon, at the court of the military chief Ioannus Patricus, and
for a long time, up to the accession of Mauritius to the throne I
served as a military man in Armenia and learned your language and
literature. During one attack by Persian troops on the Greeks, I was
wounded and escaped to Antioch. I lost all my possessions. Praying to
the Lord to heal my wounds, I made a promise: "If You prolong my life,
I shall dedicate it not to accumulating perishable treasures but to
collecting treasures of knowledge." And the Lord heard my prayers.
After I recovered I went to Jerusalem, and from there to Alexandria
and Rome. Upon returning to Constantinople, I met a famous philosopher
from Athens and studied with him for many years. After that I returned
to my homeland and began to teach and instruct my people."
After some years that philosopher died. Not finding a replacement for
him, the king and his courtiers sent for Tyukhik and invited him to
assume the teacher's position. Tyukhik, citing the promise he made to
God not to move far from the city, turned down the offer. But because
of his wide leaning, people came streaming from all countries to study
with him.
And I, the most insignificant of all Armenians, having learned from
him this powerful science, desired by kings, brought it to our
country, supported by no one, obligated only to my own industry, God's
help, and the prayers of the Blessed Educator. And no one thanked me
for my efforts.
Problems and Solutions
A half and one sixth and one nine-ninth of all the books were printed
on verge'; one fifth and one two-hundred-eighty-fifth--on rag paper;
one forty-fifth and one eight-hundred-fifty-fifth--on vellum, and
forty-five inscribed copies--on Dutch paper. And so, find how many
copies were printed in all.
--Imitation of Anania of Shirak
A Latin proverb says habent sua fata libelli ("books have their own fate").
The fate of Problems and Solutions by Anania of Shirak is quite amazing. The
manuscripts of Anania's book were preserved only because, according to
Armenian historians, "in ancient and medieval Armenia manuscripts were guarded
from invaders, like weapons, and cherished, like one's own children." Biding
their time, the manuscripts lay in the Matenadaran, a renowned depository of
ancient manuscripts (now the Mesrop Mashtots Institute of Ancient Manuscripts).
And its hour finally arrived. In 1896 the learned monk Father Kaloust used two
manuscripts to publish the problem book, supplementing it with an introduction
and commentary. In 1918 the book was translated into Russian, edited,
annotated, and typeset by Iosef Orbeli, a prominent scholar (and later a
member of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR).
In the translator's words, the problems of Anania are "amusing, full of life,
and simple." Orbeli goes on to say: "The subjects of the problems are
generally taken from everyday life. The scene is predominantly his homeland
Shirak and the surrounding countryside, and the dramatis personae, if they are
named, are the local princes--the Kamsarakans, including Nersekh, who was a
contemporary of Anania." Like other ancient authors, Anania of Shirak used
only "aliquots" -- that is, fractions with a numerator of 1. When it is
necessary to write fractions with numerators other than 1, one has to
represent it as a sum of aliquots (see the epigraph above).
Like any true work of art, the problems of Anania suffer terribly in the
retelling. You have to read the originals (albeit in translation) in their
full glory. So let's open Anania's problem book--a gift from across the ages.
Problems 1 and 8 relate to the Armenian uprising against the Persians in A.D.
572.
Problem 1
My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the
Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary
heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops.
The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time,
pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third
time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were
still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from
this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the massacre.
Problem 8
During the famous Armenian uprising against the Persians, when Zaurak
Kamsarakan killed Suren, one of the Armenian azats[4] sent an envoy to the
Persian king to report the baleful news. The envoy covered fifty miles in a
day. Fifteen days later, when he learned of this, Zaurak Kamsarakan sent
riders in pursuit to bring the envoy back. The riders covered eighty miles in
a day. And so, find how many days it took them to catch the envoy.
Problem 18 mentions vessels made of varying amounts of metal. In the Russian
translation, they are all called "dishes." But in the original Armenian,
according to Orbeli's note, the dishes in the first and second instances are
called mesur, and in the third instance scutel. Scutel is a common Armenian
word, but mesur had not been encountered in Armenian literature before
Anania's Problems and Solutions.
Problem 18
There was a tray in my house. I melted it down and made other vessels from the
metal. From one third I made a mesur; from one fourth, another mesur; from
one fifth, two goblets; from one sixth, two scutels; and from two hundred ten
drams, I made a bowl. And now, find the weight of the tray.
Several of the problems reflect the richness of the Caucasian fauna in
Anania's time -- for instance, problem 7.
Problem 7
Once I was in Marmet, the capital of the Kamsarakans. Strolling along the bank
of the river Akhuryan, I saw a school of fish and ordered that a net be cast.
We caught a half and a quarter of the school, and all the fishes that slipped
out of the net ended up in a creel. When I looked in the creel, I found
forty-five fishes. And now, find how many fishes here were in all.
The temptation is great to present all 24 problems. But I'll restrain myself
and offer you just one more.
Problem 20 provides some interesting information about the wild animals that
inhabited Armenia at one time but now extinct for so long that there is no
mention of them even in zoological reference books. The wild donkey, according
to the generally accepted view, never roamed the Armenian lands. Yet Anania of
Shirak offers evidence to the contrary .
Problem 20
The hunting preserve of Nersekh Kamsarakan, ter[5] of Shirak and Asharunik,
was at the base of the mountain called Artin. One night great herds of wild
donkey entered the preserve. The hunters could not cope with the donkeys and,
running to the village of Talin, told Nersekh about them. When he arrived with
his brothers and azats and entered the preserve, they began killing the wild
beasts. Half of the animals were caught in traps, one fourth were killed by
arrows. The young, which constituted one twelfth of all the animals, were
caught alive, and three hundred sixty wild donkeys were killed by spears. And
so, find how many beasts there were at the start of this massacre.
"Set in type by me, Iosef Orbeli"
His biography could not be squeezed into the framework of a
bibliography.
-- K Uzbashyan, Academician
Iosef Abgarovich Orbeli
Anyone who is lucky enough to hold a copy (1/n of the small printing--n is the
solution to the epigraph in the previous section) of the Russian translation
of Anania of Shirak's Problems and Solutions, a thin book with yellowed pages,
has probably noticed the variety of the fonts, the elegance of the borders,
and the high quality of the design, printing, and binding. Such great
attention to detail is characteristic of works that fulfill a requirement for
a degree in bookmaking. And this problem book was indeed a kind of diploma
attesting to the professional maturity of the man who created it. An
advertisement at the end of the book reads: "This book was typeset in
December 1917 at the printing offices of the Russian Academy of Sciences by
me, Iosef Orbeli; the text was also proofread, laid out, and decorated with
borders by me. Various circumstances prevented me from carrying this project
to the end; the final pages of the book were typeset by M. Strolman."
Typesetting was neither the first nor the only profession of the renowned
orientalist Iosef Orbeli, who later became the director of the Hermitage
Museum in Leningrad. He was also a cabinetmaker and a locksmith. Orbeli had
already become acquainted with the famous academic printing house Typis
Academiae, founded in 1728 and known all over the scientific world for its
rich collection of fonts and its virtuoso typesetters. In preparing to publish
the corpus of ancient inscriptions preserved on the walls of Armenian
churches, Orbeli found it necessary to create a new font that would preserve
the unique signs and ligatures. This complicated work was done by M. G.
Strolman. (Unfortunately the entire set of letters was destroyed during the
blockade of Leningrad in World War II.)
When Orbeli came to the printing offices of the Academy of Sciences, times
were hard. The only way to publish the newly translated Problems of Anania
was for Orbeli to learn typesetting (he had always been attracted to the
printer's craft). In 1922 Orbeli became the director of printing at the
Academy of Sciences. Even after he retired, he remained a tireless champion
of Russian academic typography.
Back to Earth
This book by definition does not exhaust all the most important
works in this domain. The editor hopes that those who are guilty
of this incompleteness will read these lines and, stung by shame,
will work up, if not a collection like this, at least a monograph.
--V. Bonch-Bruyevich introduction to the
Russian translation of Solid-Body
Symmetry by R. Knox and A. Gold
Let's imagine a time when space flight is an everyday thing, and high
schoolers will spend their breaks as astronauts-in training in the Perelman
crater on the far side of the Moon. Maybe one of the space travelers will take
this very copy of Quantum, and another, looking over her shoulder, will read
this article and say to himself: "This Anania from Shirak seems like a pretty
interesting guy. When I get home I'll try to find his problems."
Good luck, my young friend! Anania is sure to entertain you. Perhaps by then
there will be more than n copies of his timeless Problems and Solutions. And
we can hope they will be as lovingly printed as the masterpieces created by
Iosef Orbeli.
[1] Vardapet (or vartabed) means teacher or learned man in Armenian. (The
Armenian language suffers in English from a dual transliteration scheme.
Thus, Mesrop is often rendered as "Mesrob", Komitas as "Gomidas," and so
on).
[2] Fourth Armenia was one of fifteen provinces into which, according to
Armenian Geography in the Seventh Century A.D., so-called Great Armenia
was divided.
[3] "Pontus" (or "Pontus Euxinus") was an old name for the Black Sea.
[4] "Azats" were members one of several strata of freemen in ancient Armenia.
[5] "Ter" was the title of the heads of sovereign royal families in ancient
Armenia.
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: C.L.Gannon@newcastle.ac.uk (Space Cadet)
Subject: Re: To be exact, 2.5 million readers enlightened by Serdar Argic
Nntp-Posting-Host: evenwood
Organization: Computing Laboratory, U of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK NE1 7RU.
Lines: dog
Andrew Varvel writes:
>
>
> Serdar Argic
>(a.k.a. Serdar Argic, The Merciful and Compassionate) writes:
>
>[Serdar Argic's bountiful, divine, all-knowing, and footnoted
>wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute.]
>
>
>WHERE CAN I JOIN THE SERDAR ARGIC FAN CLUB?  DO I GET A T-SHIRT?
>
>--The Friendly Neighborhood Alien--
>
>Life just hasn't been the same since David Koresh died...
ah c'mon, give the guy three days and see what comes up.
LEO
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
|  DISCLAIMER: it wasn't me, honest,   | email:
|     it was him, he made me do it!!   | C.L.Gannon@newcastle.ac.uk
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 69
The latest Israeli "proposal", first proposed in February of 1992, contains
the following assumptions concerning the nature of any "interim status"
refering to the WB and Gaza, the Palestinians, implemented by negotiations.
It states that:
>Israel will remain the existing source of authority until "final status"
is agreed upon;
>Israel will negiotiate the delegation of power to the organs of the
Interim Self-Government Arrangements (ISGA);
>The ISGA will apply to the "Palestinian inhabitants of the territories"
under Israeli military administration. The arrangements will not have a
territorial application, nor will they apply to the Israeli population
of the territories or to the Palestinian inhabitants of Jerusalem;
>Residual powers not delegated under the ISGA will be reserved by Israel;
>Israelis will continue to live and settle in the territoriesd;
>Israel alone will have responsibility for security in all its aspects-
external, internal- and for the maintenance of public order;
>The organs of the ISGA will be of an administrative-functional nature;
>The exercise of powers under the ISGA will be subject to cooperation and
coordination with Israel.
>Israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the
areas of administration, justice, personnel, agriculture, education,
business, tourism, labor and social welfare, local police,
local transportation and communications, municipal affairs and religious
affairs.
Several question do come to mind concerning the "success" we all hope for
in the ongoing negotiation process. These arrangements certainly seem to
be essentially a rejection of any Palestinian "interim" self-control.
Without exposing itself to unwarranted risks and creating irresversible
vulnerability, can Israel reasonably put forward (at later points in the
negotiating process) more "relaxed" proposals for this"interim" period?
How should proposals (from either side) be altered to temper their
"maximalist" approaches as stated above? How can Israeli worries ,and
desire for some "interim control", be addressed while providing for a
very *real* interim Palestinian self-governing entity?
Tim
>Later comment:
>
>There seem to be two perceptions that **have to be addressed**. The
>first is that of Israel, where there is little trust for Arab groups, so
>there is little support for Israel giving up **tangible** assets in
>exchange for pieces of paper, "expectations", "hopes", etc. The second
>is that of the Arab world/Palestinians, where there is the demand that
>these "tangible concessions" be made by Israel **without** it receiving
>anything **tangible** back.  Given this, the gap between the two stances
>seems to be the need by Israel of receiving some ***tangible*** returns
>for its expected concessions. By "tangible" is meant something that
>1) provides Israel with "comparable" protection (from the land it is to
>give up), 2) in some way ensures that the Arab states and Palestine
>**will be** accountable and held actively (not just "diplomatically)
>responsible for the upholding of all actions on its territory (by citizens
>or "visitors").
>
>Israel is hanging on largely because it is scared stiff that the minute
>it lets go (gives lands back to Arab states, no more "buffer zone", gives
>full autonomy to Palestinians), ANY and/or ALL of the Arab parties
>could (and *would*, if not "controlled" somehow) EASILY return to the
>traditional anti-Israel position. The question then is HOW to *really*
>ensure that that will not happen.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 28
In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
>s well as jewish religion, among others.
What gives the US the right to keep New York?  It is the home of the
United Nations as well as being home to a myriad of ethnic groups.
(Actually, NYC is more comparable to the Gaza Strip; the controlling
authority would probably be pleased as punch to unload it on someone
else -- but no-one seems to want it!  :-)
>Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitzak Shamir did forty or fifty
>years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the way Abdul Nidal
>does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so therefore
>they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.
A-historical bullshit.  Shamir fought the British (who, incidentally,
shipped whole shiploads of Jews back to the Nazis for extermination
and hung those Jewish fighters that they captured and didn't want to
deal with anymore).  Shamir did not attack civilians on airliners,
cruise ships, in airports, sports events, movie theaters, markets,
on buses and children in schoolyards.  Your comparison to a Master
Murderer like Abu Nidal is BLIND!
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 47
It's all my fault.
I am in violation of one of my own rules:
"Avoid FollowingUp to a Barf posting."
In article <1r64pb$nkk@genesis.MCS.COM> arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
>>article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
>>and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....
>And we all know what an unbiased source the NYT is when it comes to things
>concerning Israel.
Those damned, spiking Israelists, right, Barfling?
>Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to
"Trained Seals"?  You mean the ones that flap their flippers making
"Arf, Arf!  Arf, Arf!" sounds?
>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.  And
>finalyy, how does "Federal land" mitigate the offensiveness of this alien
>monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money
>to a foreign entity?
In your own diseased mind, you now seem to believe that tax exemption
is equivalent to government funding.  Holy Shit, Batman!  The US
government is now one of the major supporters of the Catholic Church
--  in violation of the rules of separation of Church and State!
>That "Federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate
>Americans or better yet, to house homeless Americans.
Quick, Bill!  Commandeer all the churches and give them to the People!
Or does your anti-logic only apply to the mosques belonging to what
you have described as "Ragheads" or perhaps the synagogues of those
you have characterized as "Hymies"?
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Israeli Media (was Re: Israeli Terrorism)
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: NCSU Chem Eng
Lines: 33
In article <2BD9C01D.11546@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
|> >I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
|> >reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
|> >reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
|> >interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
|>
|> Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or
|> Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn?
|> Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? The only way
|> to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
|> agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
|>
|> Tim
To Andi,
I have to disagree with you about the value of Israeli news sources. If you
want to know about events in Palestine it makes more sense to get the news
directly from the source. EVERY news source is inherently biased to some
extent and for various reasons, both intentional and otherwise. However,
the more sources relied upon the easier it is to see the "truth" and to discern
the bias.
Go read or listen to some Israeli media. You will learn more news and more
opinion about Israel and Palestine by doing so. Then you can form your own
opinions and hopefully they will be more informed even if your views don't
change.
Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Jake can call me Doctor Mohandes Brad "Ali" Hernlem (as of last Wednesday)
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Lezgians Astir in Azerbaijan and Daghestan
Keywords: pis bogaz
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 38
In article <94492@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a
KAAN,TIMUCIN) wrote:
[KT] HELLO, shit face david, I see that you are still around. I dont want to
[KT] see your shitty writings posted here man. I told you.
So ... close your eyes and walk away.
[KT] You are getting itchy as your fucking country.
I have been defending the history of the Armenians on this network for over
six years. I have seen the likes of you enter his forum, make fools of
themselves, and "simply vanish" as did the Armenians in 1915!
[KT] Hey , and dont give me that freedom of speach bullshit once more.
Realize sir, you are not in Turkey! In the USA freedom of speech is not
considered "bullshit". It is because of such freedoms that Turks like yourself
are allowed to attend Georgia Tech.
[KT] Because your freedom has ended when you started writing things about my
[KT] people. And try to translate this "ebenin donu butti kafa David.".
What's the problem? If you can't stand the heat -- leave! Your government
murdered 1.5 million Armenians and you would have me stay quiet to suit your
personal fancy or some fascist fetish regarding the greatness of Turkey! Well,
that is simply too bad.
[KT] BYE, ANACIM HADE.
[KT] TIMUCIN
Pis bogaz!
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal
From: koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya Koc)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems
Organization: College of Engineering, Oregon State University
Lines: 32
NNTP-Posting-Host: rize.ece.orst.edu
> Problem 1
>
> My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the
> Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary
> heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops.
> The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time,
> pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third
> time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were
> still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from
> this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the
massacre.
>
Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760
Corollary: Armenians strike, slaughter, destroy, and massacre. After all,
they are not as innocent as the asala network claims.
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #014
Summary: Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 120
Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #014
Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
+----------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                          |
| I asked, "What's going on?" He says, "What's the matter, |
| can't you see, they've overturned a car and they're      |
| killing Armenians!"                                      |
|                                                          |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
DEPOSITION OF ZAVEN ARMENAKOVICH BADASIAN
Born 1942
Employed
Sumgait Bulk Yarn Plant
Resident at Building 34, Apartment 33
Microdistrict No. 12
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]
On February 27 my wife and I went to Baku to go shopping and returned to
Sumgait at around five in the evening. We ran into one of my relatives at the
bus station and got to talking. A lot of people had gathered not far away,
near the store. Well at first we didn't know what was happening, and then a
fellow I know comes up to me, an Azerbaijani guy, and says, "What are you
standing here for? Go home immediately!" I asked, "What's going on?" He says,
"What's the matter, can't you see, they've overturned a car and they're
killing Armenians!" He helped me catch a cab and we got home safely.
We sat at home for two days. During that time a gang of bandits came into our
courtyard. But the neighbors wouldn't let them in the building. There were
about 80 of them. They had sticks and pieces of armatures in their hands. They
were shouting something, but you couldn't understand it. It wasn't one voice
or two, all of them were shouting in a chorus. They turned toward Building 35.
They went up to the third _floor, and we see that they're breaking glass and
throwing things out the window. After a while they come out the entryway: one
has a pair of jeans in his hands, another has a tape recorder, and a third a
guitar. They went on toward the auto parts store.
We had to save ourselves. After midnight on March 1 we went to hide at School
No. 33, which is in Microdistrict 13. There were two other Armenian families
there with us. There were 13 of us altogether. Out of all of them I had only
known Ernest before, he had moved to Sumgait from Kirovabad. The Azerbaijani
guard at the school let us in. At first he didn't want to, but there was
nowhere else for us to go. We had to plead with him and talk him into it. We
were told that on that day, the 1st, there would be an attack on our
microdistrict.
We went upstairs to a classroom on the second floor.
On the city radio station they announced three telephone numbers that could be
used to summon assistance or communicate anything important. I called one of
them and the First Secretary of the Sumgait City Party Committee answered. I
asked him for assistance. I say, "We're in School No. 33, we need to be
evacuated." Well he says, "Got it, wait there, I'm sending out help now."
I know his voice. The First Secretary had been to our plant, I had spoken with
him personally. When I called he said, "Muslimzade here."
About two hours after the call we heard shouts near the school. We looked out
the window and about 100 to 120 people were outside saying, "Armenians, come
out, we're here to get you." They have clubs, axes, and armature shafts in
their hands. The guard sat there with us, and asked, "Where should I go?" I
say, "If your life is of any value to you you'll go down there and say that
the Armenians were here and that they left." That's what he did. He went down
there and said, "The Armenians were here," he said, "I let them out the back
door, they went that way." And pointed with his hand. And with shouts and
noise the mob set off in the direction he had pointed.
So the assistance we had been promised did come. They sent us help, all right!
Instead of sending real soldiers he had sent his own. I am positive that
Muslimzade did that. No one had seen us entering the school, no one knew that
we were there. In any case, we stayed at the school until seven in the
morning, and no soldiers of any sort came to our aid.
In the morning we went to my relative's in Microdistrict 1, and the soldiers
took us to the SK club from there. The club was jammed with people, and there
were lots of people ahead of us--there was no space available. One small boy,
about three months old, died right in my arms. There wasn't a single doctor,
nothing. The boy was uninjured, there were no wounds or bruises on him. He was
just very ill. They gave him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, they did everything
they could under the circumstances, but were unable to save him. And his
mother and father, a young Armenian couple, were right there, on the floor ...
I searched for a spot for us in the SK, we have a small child of our own, I
wanted to find a room or something to put my family in. I went up to the third
floor, there were a lot of soldiers up there, bandaged, with canes, limping,
with their heads broken open. They were a terrible sight. Young guys, all of
them.
There were a lot of bandaged Armenians, too. Everyone had been beaten,
everyone was crying, wailing, and calling for help. I think that the City
Party Committee ignored us completely. True, there was a snack bar: a sausage
was 30 kopeks or 40 kopeks, a package of cookies that cost 26 kopeks was being
sold for 50, a bottled soft drink cost a ruble . . . But there was no way to
get the things any cheaper.
I met my old uncle, Aram Mikhailovich, there. He saw me and tears welled up in
his eyes. My whole life he had told me that we were friendly peoples, that we
worked together, he always had Azerbaijanis over at his house. And now he saw
me and there was nothing he could say, he just cried. You can understand his
feelings, of course.
April 8, 1988
Yerevan
- - - reference - - -
[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 185-186
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal
From: perrakis@embl-heidelberg.de
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Organization: EMBL, European Molecular Biology Laboratory
Lines: 76
In article <93105.134708FINAID2@auvm.american.edu>, <FINAID2@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>>  Look Mr. Atakan: I have repeated it in the past, and I shall repeat it once
>>  more, that when it comes to how Greeks are treating the Turks in Greece,
>>  you and your copatriots should simply shut up.
>>
>>  Because what you are hearing is simply a form of propaganda from your ethnic
>>  fellows who studied at the Greek universities without paying any money for
>>  tuition, food, and helth insurance.
>>
>>  And any high school graduate can put down some simple math and compare the
>>  grouth of the Turkish community in Greece with the destruction of the Greek
>>  minority in Turkey.
>>
>> >Aykut Atalay Atakan
>>
>>  Panos Tamamidis
>
>                   Mr. Tamamidis:
>
> Before repling your claims, I suggest you be kind to individuals
> who are trying to make some points abouts human rights, discriminations,
> and unequal treatment of Turkish minority in GREECE.I want the World
> know how bad you treat these people. You will deny anything I say but
> It does not make any difrence because I will write things that I saw with
> my eyes.You prove yourself prejudice by saying free insurance, school
> etc. Do you Greeks only give these things to Turkish minority or
> everybody has rights to get them.Your words even discriminate
> these people. You think that you are giving big favor to these
> people by giving these thing that in reality they get nothing.
> If you do not know unhuman practices that are being conducted
> by the Government of the Greece, I suggest that you investigate
> to see the facts. Then, we can discuss about the most basic
> human rights like fredom of religion,
If you did not see with your 'eyes' freedom of religion you
must ne at least blind !
> fredom of press of Turkish
2 weeks ago I read the interview of a Turkish journalist in a GReek magazine,
he said nothing about being forbiden to have Turkish press in Greece !
> minority, ethnic cleansing of all Turks in Greece,
Give as a brake. You call athnic cleansing of apopulation when it doubles?
> freedom of
> right to have property without government intervention,
What do you mean by that ? Anyway in Greece, as in every  country if you want
some property you 'inform' the goverment .
> fredom of right to vote to choose your community leaders,
Well well well. When Turkish in Area of Komotini elect 1 out of 3
represenatives of this area to GReek parliament, if not freedom what is it?
3 out of 3 ? Maybe there are only Turks living there ....
> how Greek Government encourages people to destroy
> religious places, houses, farms, schools for Turkish minority then
> forcing them to go to turkey without anything with them.
I cannot deny that actions of fanatics from both sides were reported.
A minority of Greek idiots indeed attack religious places, which
were protected by the Greek police. Photographs of Greek policemen
preventing Turks from this non brain minority were all over Greek press.
> Before I conclude my writing, let me point out how Greeks are
> treated in Turkey. We do not consider them Greek minority, instead
> we consider a part of our society. There is no difference among people in
> Turkey. We do not state that Greek minority go to Turkish universities,
> get free insurance, food, and health insurance because these are basic
> human needs and they are a part of turkish community. All big businesses
> belong to Greeks in Turkey and we are proud to have them.unlike the
> Greece which tries to destroy Turkish minority, We encourage all
> minorities in Turkey to be a part of Turkish society.
Oh NO. PLEASE DO GIVE AS A BRAKE !
Minorities in Turkish treated like that ? YOur own countrymen die
in the prisons every day bacause of their political beliefs, an this
is reported by Turks, and you want us to believe tha Turkey is the paradise
of Human rights ?  Business of Greeks i Turkey? Yes 80 years ago !
You seem to be intelligent, so before presenting Turkey as the paradise of
Human rights just invastigate this matter a bit more.
>
> Aykut Atalay Atakan
>
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: The Israeli Press
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
Andy Beyer has claimed that the Israeli Press is a bit biased.
But the fact is that there are events shaping the politics of the
mideast that people who do not read the Israeli press simply know
nothing about.  Many of these events are not even mentioned here.
I read the Israeli press to learn of important events about which
you know nothing, because of your total reliance on western media
for your information on Israel.  Since I read both American media
and Israeli media, I can say with absolute certainty that anybody
who reliesx exclusively on the American press for knowledge about
Israel does not have a true picture of what is going on.
As to the claim that Israeli papers are biased, of course they
are.  Some may lean to the right or the left, just like the media
here in America.  But they still report events about which people
here know nothing.  I choose to form my opinions about Israel and
the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average American
who relies exclusively on an American media which does not report
on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Israel does not kill reporters.
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
Anas Omran has claimed that, "the Israelis used to arrest, and
sometime to kill some of these neutral reporters."  The assertion
by Anas Omran is, of course, a total fabrication.  If there is an
once of truth iin it, I'm sure Anas Omran can document such a sad
and despicable event.  Otherwise we may assume that it is another
piece of anti-Israel bullshit posted by someone whose family does
not know how to teach their children to tell the truth.  If Omran
would care to retract this 'error' I would be glad to retract the
accusation that he is a liar.  If he can document such a claim, I
would again be glad to apologize for calling him a liar.  Failing
to do either of these would certainly show what a liar he is.
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
Nntp-Posting-Host: gs135.sp.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 22
In article <1483500353@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
>
>
>Dear Josh
>
>I appreciate the fact that you sought to answer my questions.
>
>Having said that, I am not totally happy with your answers.
>
>1.   You did not fully answer my question whether Israeli ID cards
>identify the holders as Jews or Arabs. You imply that U.S.
>citizens must identify themselves by RACE. Is that true ? Or are
>just trying to mislead the reader ?
I think he is trying to mislead people.  In cases where race
information is sought, it is completely voluntary (the census
possibly excepted).
-anwar
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Lines: 33
Anas Omran writes in his earlier posting:
>
>
>A high rank Israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a Hamas
...and then his "fantasy" begins...
>Mujahid.  The terrorist Israelis chased and killed a young Mujahid
>using anti-tank missiles.  The terrorist zionists cut the Mujahid's
>body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized.
>At leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni-tank missiles.
>
>
>---
>Anas Omran
>
>
>
This clearly is a "fantastic" story, Anas!  I am very curious as to who
(or what) your sources are for this grossly exaggerated account (if not,
blatant lie).  It surprises me that this "story" has not yet made it to
the front pages of the major newspapers (which love to make the State of
Israel look as evil as humanly possible)!  Such a story would be "eaten up"
by some of the papers over here.  So please explain to me why I have never
seen nor heard of it before!  - Believe me, I'm not expecting a reply because
we both know where the story came from... YOUR DREAMS!!!!
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Michael Zion Magil
IBM Canada Laboratory
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: composer.think.com
In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
|>
|> There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
|> on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
|> Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis
|> used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.
|> So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
|> They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.
Please list the names of some of those neutral reporters that were killed
in the "O.T.".  It is also interesting to note that at the outbreak of
the intifada, palestinian parties quickly began orchestrating their
demonstrations for the benefit of the media.  Having spoken to a Danish
reporter who covered the initfada, I know of at least one case where
he found out that a "mass demonstration" on the outskirts of Gaza was
setup for himself and his colleagues.  When I asked whether the footage
shot was sent he replied affirmatively, "after all, it did happen."
When this became the case, the IDF began closing sensitive trouble
spots to reporters.
|> Anas Omran
|>
--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems
Nntp-Posting-Host: bellini.berkeley.edu
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
Lines: 24
In article <1r6qn1INNd0n@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya Koc) writes:
>> Problem 1
>>
>> My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the
>> Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary
>> heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops.
>> The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time,
>> pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third
>> time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were
>> still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from
>> this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the
>massacre.
>>
>
>Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760
>
I thought the implication was that the prince destroyed one fourth of the
remaining Persian troops on the second round, and then 1/11 of those remaining
on the third round.  This would mean
Answer: a*(1 - 1/2)*(1 - 1/4)*(1 - 1/11) = 280  -->  a = 821.333
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: Israel does not kill reporters.
Lines: 26
>
>   Anas Omran has claimed that, "the Israelis used to arrest, and
>sometime to kill some of these neutral reporters."  The assertion
>by Anas Omran is, of course, a total fabrication.  If there is an
>once of truth iin it, I'm sure Anas Omran can document such a sad
>and despicable event.  Otherwise we may assume that it is another
>piece of anti-Israel bullshit posted by someone whose family does
>not know how to teach their children to tell the truth.  If Omran
>would care to retract this 'error' I would be glad to retract the
>accusation that he is a liar.  If he can document such a claim, I
>would again be glad to apologize for calling him a liar.  Failing
>to do either of these would certainly show what a liar he is.
Why retract your accusation that he's a liar?  If Omran retracts his "verbal
diarrohea" doesn't that only prove the liar he *really* is?  A retraction
would be pointless!  Giving this guy the opportunity to "save face" after
uttering such bullshit would just encourage him to do it again!  I must say
that your style is very impressive, Mark.  Keep it up!
- Mike
---
MI     KE   MIK    EMIK   EMI  K        "Opinions expressed above
M I   K E  M   I  K        E   M         are my own and not that
M  I K  E  MIKEM  I  KEM   I   K         of 'Big Blue'"
M   I   K  E   M   IKE M  IKE  MIKE
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal
Nntp-Posting-Host: virginia
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, NY
Lines: 42
In article <C5un2y.7Jn@apollo.hp.com> goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:
>In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>>
>>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>>Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
>>
>>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>>---------------------------------------------------------- by
>>			  Elias Davidsson
>>Having stated my assumptions, I will now state my proposal.
>>
>>1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
>>for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
>>and the other Palestinian-Arab.
>...
>>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>>truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
>
>    Sounds just like a racial theory that Hitler outlined in Mein Kampf.
Someone else said something similar.  I will not comment on the
value or lack of value of Elias's "proposal".  I just want to say
that it is very distressing that at least two people here are
profoundly ignorant of Nazi racial doctrine.  They were NOT
like Elias's idea, they were more like the opposite.
Nazis believed in racial purity, not racial assimilation.  An
instructive example is the Nazi attitude to Gypsies.  According to
Nazi theoreticians, Gypsies were an Aryan race.  They were persecuted,
and in huge numbers murdered, because most European Gypies were
considered not pure Gypsies but "mongrels" formed from the pure Gypsy
race and other undesirable races.  This was the key difference between
the theoretical approach to Jews and Gypsies, by the way.  It is also
true that towards the end of WWII even the "purist" Gypsies were
hunted down as the theory was forgotten.
Brendan.
(email:  bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Ozal Died!
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 9
It was announced on NPR 4/17/93 10:00 am EDT, that Turkish President Ozal died
of a heart attack in Ankara.
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Re: The Israeli Press
Nntp-Posting-Host: alcor.concordia.ca
Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Canada
Lines: 41
bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
...
>for your information on Israel.  Since I read both American media
>and Israeli media, I can say with absolute certainty that anybody
>who reliesx exclusively on the American press for knowledge about
>Israel does not have a true picture of what is going on.
Of course you never read Arab media,
I read Arab, ISRAELI (Jer. Post, and this network is more than enough)
and Western (American, French, and British) reports and I can say
that if we give Israel -10 and Arabs +10 on the bias scale (of course
you can switch the polarities) Israeli newspapers will get either
a -9 or -10, American leading  newspapers and TV news range from -6
to -10 (yes there are some that are more Israelis than Israelis)
The Montreal suburban (a local free newspaper) probably is closer
to Kahane's views than some Israeli right wing newspapers, British
range from 0 (neutral) to -10, French (that Iknow of, of course) range
from +2 (Afro-french magazines) to -10, Arab official media range from
0 to -5 (Egyptian)  to +9 in SA. Why no +10? Because they do not want to
overdo it and stir people against Israel and therefore against them since
they are doing nothing.
>   As to the claim that Israeli papers are biased, of course they
>are.  Some may lean to the right or the left, just like the media
>here in America.  But they still report events about which people
>here know nothing.  I choose to form my opinions about Israel and
>the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average American
>who relies exclusively on an American media which does not report
>on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy.
the average bias of what you read would be probably around -9,
while that of the average American would be the same if they do
not read or read the new-york times and similar News-makers, and
-8 if they read some other RELATIVELY less biased newspapers.
so you are not better off.
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida
Lines: 36
ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> > ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> >
> > > First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> > > Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> > > about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you).
> >
> > Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's
> > "qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany,
> > show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.
> >
> > > 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> > > justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> > > attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> > > not appreciated.
> >
> > ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were
> > tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
> > YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
> > sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications"
> > in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go
> > back to the minors, junior.
> 	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
> others suffered physically. It is sad that people like you are
> so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. Thanks
> for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of
> ignorant people I am dealing with. I included your letter since
> I thought it demonstrated my point more than anything I could
> write.
-----
When you're willing to actually support something you say with fact or
argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned
offense, let me know.  Otherwise, back to your own league, son.
From: hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali)
Subject: Re: Clinton's views on Jerusalem
Originator: hamid@celeborn.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: celeborn.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Lines: 23
In article <1993Apr16.121356.28417@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin) writes:
|> I recently read that during Bill Clinton's campaign, he stated
|> that if elected he would immediately recognize Jerusalem as
|> Israel's capital.  According to the article, Mr. Clinton
|> reaffirmed this after winning the presidency.  However,
|> during recent talks with President Mubarak, Secretary of
|> State Christopher stated that "the status of Jerusalem
|> will be a final matter of discussion between the parties".
|>
|> Now I don't want to start a big discussion over the status
|> of Jerusalem.  All I want to know is if anyone can
|> authenticate Mr. Clinton's statements with dates, places, etc.
|>
This would be one of the results of "U.S. backed  PEACE!!!!!!" process.
Hamid
|> Thank you.
|>
|> Ben.
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Lines: 28
nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
:
:                      THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
:
:      (Following is a transcript of a recruitment and training
: videotape made last summer by the Qassam Battalions, the military
As opposed to Israel's many ways of death. Using bombers and artillery
against Lebanese towns and villages. Using fire arms and lethal
variants of tear gas and *rubber coated* bullets against stone
throwers. Using tanks and anti-tank missiles against homes after a 5
minute evacuation warning.  Using Shin Bit's "reasonable" physical
pressure in interrogation. And more. Not counting of course past
practices such as the bombardment of Beirut in 1982, the bombing of the
Egyptian school of Bahr-El-Bakar and the Abu-Za'bal factory in 1978,
the downing of the Libyan airliner full of Egyptian passengers near
the same time. Overseeing the Maronite massacre in Sabra and Shatilla.
That is of course besides numerous massacres by Irgun and other gangs
during the British mandate period.
Ironically the same Op-Ed page in the NYT times from which the Naftaly
copied this article was running another article next to it by A.M.
Rosenthall blaming Bosnian Muslims for their own genocide by effectively
saying that it is stupid to seek independence if independence will bring
your people slaughter. But what else would one expect from Mr. Rosenthall
who never wasted a chance to bash Arabs or Muslims.
Alaa Zeineldine
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: NCSU Chem Eng
Lines: 132
In article <2BCF287A.25524@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|
|> >In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu
|>  (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> >|>
|> >|> In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu
|>     (Tim Clock) writes:
|> >|>
|> >|> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover,
|> >|> Israel should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with
|> >|> attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the
|> >|> other respects innocent lives?
|>
|> > Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are
|> > using civilians for cover,
|>
|> "Assuming"? Also: come on, Brad. If we are going to get anywhere in
|> this (or any) discussion, it doesn't help to bring up elements I never
|> addressed, *nor commented on in any way*. I made no comment on who is
|> "right" or who is "wrong", only that civilians ARE being used as cover
|> and that, having been placed "in between" the Israelis and the guerillas,
|> they *will* be injured as both parties continue their fight.
Pardon me Tim, but I do not see how it can be possible for the IDF to fail
to detect the presence of those responsible for planting the bomb which
killed the three IDF troops and then later know the exact number and
whereabouts of all of them. Several villages were shelled. How could the IDF
possibly have known that there were guerrillas in each of the targetted
villages? You see, it was an arbitrary act of "retaliation".
|> > If the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why
|> > is it further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why
|> > not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there
|> > is more to the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION...
|> > "GETTING BACK"..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the
|> > villages. The least it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli
|> > government for the lives of civilians.
|>
|> I agree with you here. I have always thought that Israel's bombing
|> sortees and bombing policy is stupid, thoughtless, inhumane AND
|> ineffective. BUT, there is no reason that Israel should passive wait
|> until attackers chose to act; there is every reason to believe that
|> "taking the fight *to* the enemy" will do more to stop attacks.
|>
|> As I said previously, Israel spent several decades "sitting passively"
|> on its side of a border and only acting to stop these attacks *after*
|> the attackers had entered Israeli territory. It didn't work very well.
|> The "host" Arab state did little/nothing to try and stop these attacks
|> from its side of the border with Israel so the number of attacks
|> were considerably higher, as was their physical and psychological impact
|> on the civilians caught in their path.
The problem, Tim, is that the original reason for the invasion was Palestinian
attacks on Israel, NOT Lebanese attacks.
|> >
|> >|> What?So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states
|> >|> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
|> >|> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the
|> >|> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their
|> >|> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
|> >|> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of
|> >|> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
|> >|>
|> > If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
|> > no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks.
|>
|> This is just another "selectively applied" statement.
|>
|> The reason for this drawn-out impasse between Ababs/Palestinians and Israelis
|> is that NEITHER side is willing to accept the Word of the other. By your
|> criteria *everyone* should stay away from the negotiations.
|>
|> That is precisely why the Palestinians (in their recent PISGA proposal for
|> the "interim" period after negotiations and leading up to full autonomy) are
|> demanding conditions that essentially define "autonomy" already. They DO
|> NOT trust that Israel will "follow through" the entire process and allow
|> Palestinians to reach full autonomy.
|>
|> Do you understand and accept this viewpoint by the Palestinians?
|> If you do, then why should Israel's view of Arabs/Palestinians
|> be any different? Why should they trust the Arab/Palestinians' words?
|> Since they don't, they are VERY reluctant to give up "tangible assets
|> (land, control of areas) in exchange for "words". For this reason,
|> they are also concerned about the sorts of "guarantees" they will have
|> that the Arabs WILL follow through on their part of any agreement reached.
First, I believe that my statement applies to both sides.
Having said that, I think it is neccessary to separate what is legitimately
negotiable and what is not. For example, no country has the right to abuse
one's human rights. Deciding whether there will be one or two states in
Palestine is a legitimate question. While de facto one state exists, Israel
must treat all within its domain equitably.
|> > Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
|> > disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
|> > not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
|> > Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son.
|>
|> While the "major armaments" (those allowing people to wage "civil wars")
|> have been removed, the weapons needed to cross-border attacks still
|> remain to some extent. Rocket attacks still continue, and "commando"
|> raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard
|> for human life (yours of that of others). Such attacks also continue.
Yes, I am afraid that what you say is true but that still does not justify
occupying your neighbor's land. Israel must resolve its disputes with the
native Palestinians if it wants peace from such attacks.
|> > Of course, if Israel would withdraw from Lebanon
|> > and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
|> > make the Lebanese so mad as to do that.
|>
|> Bat guano. The situation you call for existed in the 1970s and attacks
|> were commonplace.
Not true. Lebanese were not attacking Israel in the 1970s. With a strong
Lebanese government (free from Syrian and Israeli interference) I believe
that the border could be adequately patrolled. The Palestinian heavy
weapons have been siezed in past years and I do not see as significant a
threat as once existed.
Please, Tim, don't fall into the trap of treating Lebanese and Palestinians
as all part of the same group. There are too many who think all Arabs or all
Muslims are the same. Too many times I have seen people support the bombing
of Palestinian camps in "retaliation" for an IDF death at the hands of the
Lebanese Resistance or the shelling of Lebanese villages in "retaliation" for
a Palestinian attack.
|> Tim
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 15
In article <1993Apr17.160731.3178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine) writes:
>nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
>:
>:                      THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
>:
>:      (Following is a transcript of a recruitment and training
>: videotape made last summer by the Qassam Battalions, the military
>>
>Alaa Zeineldine
While you brought up the separate question of Israel's unjustified
policies and practices, I am still unclear about your reaction to
the practices and polocies reflected in the article above.
Tim
From: jim@specialix.com (Jim Maurer)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Organization: Specialix Inc.
Lines: 25
arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
>>article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
>>and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....
>>
>And we all know what an unbiased source the NYT is when it comes to things
>concerning Israel.
>Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to
>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.  And
>finalyy, how does "Federal land" mitigate the offensiveness of this alien
>monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money
>to a foreign entity?
>That "Federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate
>Americans or better yet, to house homeless Americans.
The donations are tax deductible like any donations to a non-profit
organization.  I've donated money to a group restoring streetcars
and it was tax deductible.  Why don't you contribute to a group
helping the homeless if you so concerned?
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?
Lines: 89
>
>O.K., its my turn:
>
>       DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!
>
>I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
>to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
>plan !
>
May I suggest you chech out the _Palestinian National Covenant (1964)_.  It may
not use the exact words as quoted above but I'm sure many will agree that the
same message is being issued.  Later on when I get back home I will try to find
the precise section(s) but you can do the research for now (I hope).  I also
realize that Yasser Arafat renounced the _Covenant_ *to the Western media only*
but he has yet to inform the PNC officially and enequivocally of his exact
intentions on this issue.  Therefore, as far as we are concerned the _Covenant_
still stands as the "Bible" (so to speak) of the mainstream Palestinian
National movement!
>(Pro Israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity
>since it was coined by Bnai Brith)
As a staunch pro-Israel activist I can confidently say that Bnai Brith has NOT
influenced my opinions on the Arab-Israeli conflict.  As I mentioned above,
just a little research on the subject will lead anyone to reach a similar
conclusion on the Palestinian National movement (the PLO in most cases).  BB
does not properly speak for me nor many of the people around me who share
my views.
>
>What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
>is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
>Law. This would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the Jews in
>Palestine took control of the land and its (mostly Muslim) inhabitants.
>
What 1948 situation?  A negative situation I presume?  Is this the same
"situation" when the Jordanian occupiers of East Jerusalem would not allow the
Jews to go worship at the HOLIEST SITE IN JUDIASM?  Was this an example of
Qu'ranic law being exercised?  If not, I have another suggested reading for
you... get into the "soc.culture.arabic" newsgroup where the posters have been
debating the topic "Jews in the Qu'ran" (and may I remind you the people doing
the debating appear to be devout Muslims with some knowledge of the Qu'ran).
You will find that Jews aren't really viewed positively by the Qu'ran (to put
it lightly).  So how do you think Jews (or any other non-Islamic religion) will
be treated by an Islamic state governed by the words of the Qu'ran?  I think
the 1948-1967 "situation" in Jerusalem will return *at best*!  What do you
think?
>However, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their
>homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. The political
>thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the
>Jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice.
All I have to say to that is, once again, see s.c.a - "Jews in the Qu'ran" and
think again.  "Freedom of choice" is *definitely* not an option in Qu'ranic
law especially for non-Muslims and ALL women!  Remember the Gulf War?  I'm sure
you saw the reports about how women had few rights in Saudi Arabia (an Islamic
state).
>
>As for the PLO, I am at a loss to explain what is going inside Arafat's mind.
>
Probably nothing!  Aside from how to break the news to his Palestinian brethren
that the _Covenant_ is "null and void" without getting assassinated himself!
>Although their political thinking seems far fetched with Israel acting as a true
>super-power in the region, the Islamic movements are using the same weapon the
>Jews used to establish their state : Religion.
>
In conclusion, Ahmed, you should go to the library and find the _Palestinian
National Covenant (1964)_ and read it VERY CAREFULLY.  By the way, Redpath
Library DOES have it in stock because that is exactly where I found it when I
was doing my research.  So enjoy the reading and I hope we will be hearing back
from you soon!
- Mike
---
MI     KE   MIK    EMIK   EMI  K        "Opinions expressed above
M I   K E  M   I  K        E   M         are my own and not that
M  I K  E  MIKEM  I  KEM   I   K         of 'Big Blue'"
M   I   K  E   M   IKE M  IKE  MIKE
IBM Corp., Toronto, Canada
From: ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed)
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev
Originator: ahmeda@ice.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: ice.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Lines: 23
In article <1993Apr26.021105.25642@cs.brown.edu>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
|> This is nonsense. I lived in the Negev for many years and I can say
|> for sure that no Beduins were "moved" or harmed in any way. On the
|> contrary, their standard of living has climbed sharply; many of them
|> now live in rather nice, permanent houses, and own cars. There are
|> quite a few Beduin students in the Ben-Gurion university. There are
|> good, friendly relations between them and the rest of the population.
|>
|> All the Beduins I met would be rather surprised to read Mr. Davidson's
|> poster, I have to say.
|>
|> -Danny Keren.
|>
It is nonsense, Danny, if you can refute it with proof. If you are citing your
experience then you should have been there in the 1940's (the article is
comparing the condition then with that now).
Otherwise, it is you who is trying to change the facts.
-Ahmed.
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 51
In article <1993Apr25.221603.3260@Virginia.EDU>, ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu  writes:
> > Dear Mr. Beyer:
> >
> > It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
> > of racism and violent deragatory."
> >
> > It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial
> > distinction.
>
> 	In fact, if a speach was not offensive to some, its
> protection under Freedom of speach laws would be useless. It is
> speach that some find questionable that must be protected, be
> it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist. It is only
> through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can
> enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant. That is the
> idea behind freedom of expression.
> 	What you find offensive might be perceived as truth by
> some and what they might find offensive might be your belief.
> It is only through free exchange of ideas (and insults as the
> case seems to be with this channel) that one can change
> another's erring ways.That is why Jefferson said that here
> we are not afraid to "tolerate error so long as reason is left to
> combat it".
Those who forward offensive posts to the sysadmin aren't curtailing
anyones' freedom of speech.  The neo-nazi movement has a right to
make speeches, say anything they want.  They do not have a right
to have these speeches published by the N.Y. Times.  That depends
on the Times analysis of the economic and to somewhat extent
newsworthy value of those speeches.  Likewise to the sysadmin
of this fellows system.  If he feels his resources are being
used in a manner that is not in his best interests, or are
perhaps embarassing to his organization, he will act just as
the New York Times does, not to be a conduit for these ideas.
The poster is after all free-loading off of someone else's
pocket book when he posts.  He who controls the purse strings
has the right to make the decision how he wants those funds
spent or not spent.
Noone is going to put the poster in jail, unless he bombs a local
building as a symbol of his hatred.  Freedom of Speech in no
way equates to accessibility to conduits of information.  The
market of ideas has its own "natural selection" process that
weeds out the ga-ga from the credible ideas that are of
importance.
Seth Rosenthal
Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.
From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 17
In article <1r64pb$nkk@genesis.MCS.COM> arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to
>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.
Dammit, how did ArfArf's latest excretion escape my kill file?
Oh, he changed sites.  Again.  *sigh*  OK, I assume no other person
on this planet will ever use the login name of arf.
/arf@/aK:j
--
Mike Van Pelt      mvp@netcom.com
"... Local prohibitions cannot  block advances in military and commercial
technology.... Democratic movements for local restraint can only restrain
the world's democracies, not the world as a whole." -- K. Eric Drexler
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism, Anas the Anus
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan
Lines: 20
Anas Omran writes in his earlier posting:
[ANAS] A high rank Israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a Hamas
[ANAS] Mujahid.  The terrorist Israelis chased and killed a young Mujahid
[ANAS] using anti-tank missiles.  The terrorist zionists cut the Mujahid's
[ANAS] body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized.
[ANAS] At leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni-tank missiles.
If indeed Israeli soldiers killed a "Hamas Mujahid" with an anti-tank missile
then I'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not have been able
to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile.
Stop polluting the net with you fantasies.
Tsiel
--
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
From: warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: To be exact, 2.5 million Muslims were exterminated by the Armenians.
Organization: ITEX, Jerusalem, Israel
Lines: 33
ac = In <9304202017@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
pl = linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden)
pl: 1.  So, did the Turks kill the Armenians?
ac: So, did the Jews kill the Germans?
ac: You even make Armenians laugh.
ac: "An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
ac: systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of
ac: the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at
ac: least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The
ac: memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and
ac: eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
ac: 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
Typical Mutlu.  PvdL asks if X happened, the response is that Y
happened.  Even if we grant that the Armenians *did* do what Cosar
accuses them of doing, this has no bearing on whether the Turks did
what they are accused of.
While I can understand how an AI could be this stupid, I
can't understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let
such an AI run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself.
I do not expect any followup to this article from Argic to do anything
to alleviate my puzzlement.  But maybe I'll see a new line from his
list of insults.
--
/|/-\/-\
|__/__/_/
|warren@
/ nysernet.org
From: 2120788@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Nntp-Posting-Host: hydra.maths.unsw.edu.au
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Lines: 101
In article <1993Apr16.085717@IASTATE.EDU> tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu>, mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau
>Napoleon) writes:
>> From article <1993Apr15.092101@IASTATE.EDU>, by tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T
>Atan):
>> > Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
>> > who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
>> > believe for somebody trying to be objective.
>> > When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
>> > blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
>> > What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
>> > Do you think it was your right to be there?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I've heard many Turks say this and it surpises me that they don't read about
it.Remember the Treaty of Sevres-as a consequence of being in the Axis powers
in WWI.The Turks UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW were supposed to look after their
minorities ie. Greeks,Armenians,Kurds(I must say Turk-Kurd relations are
improving slightly with time) and not pose a threat to Turkey's neighbours.
The Turks blatantly rejected this treaty(the Germans grudgingly accepted
Versailles which was a million times worse for the health and pride of the
German people).The Greeks who had an army there,were there with BRITISH
and FRENCH backing to enforce Sevres.
In possibly the first example of appeasement the Young Turk government
managed screwed the Treaty of Laussane out of the weak allies,this was after
the Greek forces were were destroyed at Smyrna.When this occurred incidently,
FRENCH warships were in the harbour and many Greeks trying escape swam to the
FRENCH warships and climbed aboard only to get their arms cut off by the FRENCH
as they clawed they're way up the sides of the ships.
Libertae,egalitae,fraternatae.
>>
>> There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor until 1923.
>> Someone had to protect them. If not us who??
>>
>> > I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
>> > not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
>> > It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
>> > I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
>> > visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
>> > was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
>> >
>> Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
>> Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
>> waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of
>> Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.
>>
>> There are some things on which there can not be a compromise.
>>
>>
>> > The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
>> > people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
>> > because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
>> > not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals
>> > why the hatred?
>>
>> Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment directly or
>> indirecly is a "bad" person.
>> It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support of the
>> actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
>> People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
>> are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
>> as a such you must pay the price.
>>
>> > So that makes me think that there is some kind of
>> > brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person
>> > treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your
>> > history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
>> > encounters during your schooling.
>> > take it easy!
>> >
>> > --
>> > Tankut Atan
>> > tankut@iastate.edu
>> >
>> > "Achtung, baby!"
>>
>> You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks. Just talk to
>> Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under
>> Turkish occupation.
>> They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.
>>
>> You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about them from
>> people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.
>>
>> Napoleon
>
>
>Well, Napoleon. It is your kind of people who are preventing peace
>on the world. First of all, you didn't answer the question I asked
>at the end of my posting. And then you told me some bullshit
>throughout your posting which had no positive point about the issue,
>filled with hatred, and filled with emotions. Why am I doing this?
>Forget it, I don't think you are worth it to discuss the issue.
>
>
>--
>Tankut Atan
>tankut@iastate.edu
>
>"Achtung, baby!"
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.
Lines: 6
The fact that Israel is already discussing with some Palestinians what the composition
of the armed Palestinian Police Force in the territories will be during the transition
phase indicates some real solid concessions and liberal thinking on the part of the
Israeli side.
-- Chris Metcalfe
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: A moment of silence for the perpetrators of the Turkish Genocide?
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 115
In article <48299@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator) writes:
>    April 24th is approaching, and Armenians around the world
>are getting ready to remember the massacres of their family members
Celebrating in joy the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Muslim
people by your criminal grandparents between 1914 and 1920? Did you
think that you could cover up the genocide perpetrated by your fascist
grandparents against my grandparents in 1914? You've never heard of
'April 23rd'?
"In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats
in this alien land."
(Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity")
During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920,
the Armenian Dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic
genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of
annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering
2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year
homeland.
The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian,
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche,
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many
others.
J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.
Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.
Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.
Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.
Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.
Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.
Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.
Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.
Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.
John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History,
University of Chicago.
John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.
Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.
Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.
Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.
Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.
Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.
Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.
Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.
Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.
Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.
Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.
Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).
Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.
Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.
James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.
.......so the list goes on and on and on.....
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: bill_paxton@fourd.com
Subject: Ajerk
Organization: 4th Dimension BBS
Lines: 7
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
You a good case for rights to abortion.
********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************
From: bill_paxton@fourd.com
Subject: Argic
Organization: 4th Dimension BBS
Lines: 7
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
Can you aswer me one question? How did you get to be so retarded?
********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: As Armenians celebrating the Genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people,...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 65
In article <48299@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator) writes:
>or, as we have painfully witnessed in Azerbaijan, would like to see
>it happen again...
Is this the joke of the month?
1. Your fascist grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people
between 1914 and 1920.
2. Your Nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the
European Jewry during WWII.
3. Your criminal cousins have been slaughtering Muslim women, children
and elderly people in fascist x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag for the last
four years.
The entire population of x-Soviet Armenia now, as a result of the
Genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people, are Armenians.
For nearly one thousand years, the Turkish and Kurdish people
lived on their homeland - the last one hundred under the
oppressive Soviet and Armenian occupation. The persecutions
culminated in 1914: The Armenian Government planned and carried
out a Genocide against its Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks
and Kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their
homeland. After one thousand years, Turkish and Kurdish lands
were empty of Turks and Kurds.
The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.
Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.
Today, x-Soviet Armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated
by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against
humanity.
x-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide
against the Muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations
to the Turks and Kurds.
Turks and Kurds demand the right to return to their lands, to determine
their own future as a nation in their own homeland.
During the 78th Anniversary, we come once again reiterate the
unity of the Muslim People, the timelessness of the Turkish
and Kurdish Demands and the desire to pursue the struggle
for that restitution - a struggle that unites all Turks and Kurds.
Today, we appeal to all Turkish and Kurdish people in the United
States and Canada to participate en masse in the Commemorative
Events, be they cultural, political or religious.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: As today marks the 78th anniversary of the Turkish Genocide...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 65
In article <48299@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator) writes:
>or, as we have painfully witnessed in Azerbaijan, would like to see
>it happen again...
Is this the joke of the month?
1. Your fascist grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people
between 1914 and 1920.
2. Your Nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the
European Jewry during WWII.
3. Your criminal cousins have been slaughtering Muslim women, children
and elderly people in fascist x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag for the last
four years.
The entire population of x-Soviet Armenia now, as a result of the
Genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people, are Armenians.
For nearly one thousand years, the Turkish and Kurdish people
lived on their homeland - the last one hundred under the
oppressive Soviet and Armenian occupation. The persecutions
culminated in 1914: The Armenian Government planned and carried
out a Genocide against its Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks
and Kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their
homeland. After one thousand years, Turkish and Kurdish lands
were empty of Turks and Kurds.
The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.
Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.
Today, x-Soviet Armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated
by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against
humanity.
x-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide
against the Muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations
to the Turks and Kurds.
Turks and Kurds demand the right to return to their lands, to determine
their own future as a nation in their own homeland.
During the 78th Anniversary, we come once again reiterate the
unity of the Muslim People, the timelessness of the Turkish
and Kurdish Demands and the desire to pursue the struggle
for that restitution - a struggle that unites all Turks and Kurds.
Today, we appeal to all Turkish and Kurdish people in the United
States and Canada to participate en masse in the Commemorative
Events, be they cultural, political or religious.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians were also partners in Nazi practices.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 82
In article <C5vBnv.CJ@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>This implies both sides are equal.  True, it may sometimes be difficult or
Still living in an alternate universe? Numerous articles in major newspapers
(London Times) and periodicals (Newsweek) during the war, had suggested
the existence of a significant collaboration between Armenians and the
Nazis. Arthur Derounian deserves credit for being the first person to
deal with this issue extensively. Derounian's motives were twofold: his
deeply held democratic convictions gave him a sense of duty and he felt
obliged to shed light on this yet another dark chapter of Armenian history.
Concurrently, Derounian embarked on what one would call 'crisis control'
or face-saving. In order to forestall any potential attacks on the larger
Armenian community in the United States, he marginalized collaboration
as deplorable but insignificant.[1]
[1] John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), 'The Plotters,'
E. P. Dutton & Company, Inc., New York 1946, p. 182.
Source: "Mitteilungsblatt, Berlin, December 1939, Nr. 2 and 5-6"
Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately
forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi
collaboration.
A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft
is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The
magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany
and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the
magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation,
is attention-getting.
This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically
important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be
an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind.
In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and certain
political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to them. They
occupied positions in public service and were partners in Nazi practices.
The whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered
"Aryan" and what befell them.
Now wait, there is more.
Source: "From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne" by Avetis Aharonian. The
Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57.
p. 52 (second paragraph).
"Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged
massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents
on the table - look at this, here in December are the reports of the last
few months concerning ruined Tartar villages which my representative
Wardrop has sent me. The official Tartar communique speaks of the
destruction of 300 villages."
p. 54 (fifth paragraph).
"Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Tartars is stopped
and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership I
hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition."
"...it is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who
during the past months have raided and destroyed many Tartar villages in
the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are
official charges of massacres."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: This year the Turkish Nation is mourning and praying again for...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 207
Referring to notes from the personal diary of Russian General L.
Odishe Liyetze on the Turkish front, he wrote,
"On the nights 11-12 March, 1918 alone Armenian butchers
bayoneted and axed to death 3000 Muslims in areas surrounding
Erzincan. These barbars threw their victims into pits, most
likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish
Muslims, in groups of 80. My adjutant counted and unearthed
200 such pits. This is an act against our world of civilization."
On March 12, 1918 Lieut-colonel Griyaznof wrote (from an official
Russian account of the Turkish genocide),
"Roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos,
dismembered joints and carved out organs of Muslim peasants...
alas! mainly of women and children."
Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed
by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara,
1987, pp. 45-53.
"Document No: 77," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 10, Drawer
No: 4, File No: 410, Section No: 1578, Contents No: 1-12, 1-18.
(Acting Commander of Erzurum and Deveboynu regions and Commander
of the Second Erzurum Artillery Regiment Prisoner of War,
Lieutenant Colonel Toverdodleyov)
"The things I have heard and seen during the two months, until the
liberation of Erzurum by the Turks, have surpassed all the
allegations concerning the vicious, degenerate characteristic of
the Armenians. During the Russian occupation of Erzurum, no Armenian
was permitted to approach the city and its environs.
While the Commander of the First Army Corps, General Kaltiyin remained
in power, troops including Armenian enlisted men, were not sent to the
area. When the security measures were lifted, the Armenians began to
attack Erzurum and its surroundings. Following the attacks came the
plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder
of the owners of these houses...Plundering was widely committed by
the soldiers. This plunder was mainly committed by Armenian soldiers
who had remained in the rear during the war.
One day, while passing through the streets on horseback, a group of
soldiers including an Armenian soldier began to drag two old men of
seventy years in a certain direction. The roads were covered with mud,
and these people were dragging the two helpless Turks through the mud
and dirt...
It was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and
traps. The Turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds
and withdrew. The reason was that most of the Turks who were on night
patrol did not return, and no one knew what had happened to them. The
Turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear
also. Finally, the Court Martial which had been established for the
trials of murderers and plunderers, began to liquidate itself for
fear that they themselves would be punished. The incidents of murder
and rape, which had decreased, began to occur more frequently.
Sometime in January and February, a leading Turkish citizen Haci Bekir
Efendi from Erzurum, was killed one night at his home. The Commander
in Chief (Odiselidge) gave orders to find murderers within three days.
The Commander in Chief has bitterly reminded the Armenian intellectuals
that disobedience among the Armenian enlisted men had reached its
highest point, that they had insulted and robbed the people and half
of the Turks sent outside the city had not returned.
...We learnt the details this incident from the Commander-in-Chief,
Odishelidge. They were as follows:
The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the
act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been
killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless
Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood
near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
the hole was full it would be covered over with soil.
The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one.
Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew
to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
destroyed the entire population, together with the villages.
During the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages
that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the
Kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. While the travellers
were passing through Erzurum, the Armenians took advantage of the time
when the Russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill
the Kurds they had hired. When the Russian soldiers heard the cries
of the dying Kurds, they attempted to help them. However, the
Armenians threatened the Russian soldiers by vowing that they would
have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from
acting. All these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with
hatred and loathing.
Lieutenant Medivani from the Russian Army described an incident that
he witnessed in Erzurum as follows: An Armenian had shot a Kurd. The
Kurd fell down but did not die. The Armenian attempted to force the
stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying Kurd. However, since
the Kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the Armenian failed
in his attempt. Having seen this, the Armenian ripped open the abdomen
of the Kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping
him with the iron heel of his boot.
Odishelidge himself told us that all the Turks who could not escape
from the village of Ilica were killed. Their heads had been cut off
by axes. He also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered
children. Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village
of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following:
There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads.
Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and
spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about
25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140
centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age,
children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of
rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder.
A few educated Armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators
for the Armenian troops were called by Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov
to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be
proud of what the Armenians had done. To the lieutenant colonel's
disgusted amazement, the Armenian girls started to laugh and giggle,
instead of being horrified. The lieutenant colonel had severely
reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. When he told
the girls that the Armenians, including women, were generally more
licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent
and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity
and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers,
the Armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and
claimed they had laughed because they were nervous.
An Armenian contractor at the Alaca Communication zone command
narrated the following incident which took place on February 20:
The Armenians had nailed a Turkish women to the wall. They had cut
out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head.
The great massacre in Erzurum began on February 7... The enlisted men
of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. Then they
took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people
among this group were able to save their lives as the result of
my decisive attempts. The others, the Armenians claimed, were
released when they learnt that I understood what was going on.
Among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the
Armenian officers, Karagodaviev. Today, some Turks were murdered
on the streets.
On February 12, some Armenians have shot more than ten innocent
Moslems. The Russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were
threatened with death. Meanwhile I imprisoned an Armenian for
murdering an innocent Turk.
When an Armenian officer told an Armenian murderer that he would
be hanged for his crime, the killer shouted furiously: 'How dare
you hang an Armenian for killing a Turk?' In Erzurum, the
Armenians burned down the Turkish market. On February 17, I heard
that the entire population of Tepekoy village, situated within
the artillery area, had been totally annihilated. On the same
day when Antranik entered Erzurum, I reported the massacre to
him, and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible
act. However no result was achieved.
In the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred, there was a
natural silence. On the night of 26/27 February, the Armenians deceived
the Russians, perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the
Turkish soldiers. Later, it was understood that this massacre had
been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular.
The population had been herded in a certain place and then killed
one by one. The number of murders committed on that night reached
three thousand. It was the Armenians who bragged to about the details
of the massacre. The Armenians fighting against the Turkish soldiers
were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even
withstand the Turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred
people and two cannons, for one night, and ran away. The leading
Armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre.
However, the Armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with
the renegades in this massacre, just as in all the others. The lower
classes within the Armenian community have always obeyed the orders
of the leading Armenian figures and commanders.
I do not like to give the impression that all Armenian intellectuals
were accessories to these murders. No, for there were people who
opposed the Armenians for such actions, since they understood that
it would yield no result. However, such people were only a minority.
Furthermore, such people were considered as traitors to the Armenian
cause. Some have seemingly opposed the Armenian murders but have
supported the massacres secretly. Some, on the other hand, preferred
to remain silent. There were certain others, who, when accused by
the Russians of infamy, would say the following: 'You are Russians.
You can never understand the Armenian cause.' The Armenians had a
conscience. They would commit massacres and then would flee in fear
of the Turkish soldiers."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 46
In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
>In a previous article, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) says:
>>In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>>Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or
>>Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn?
>>Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another?
>There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
>on the situation in the O.T.
A neutral organization would report on the situation in
Israel, where the elderly and children are the victims of stabbings by
Hamas "activists."  A neutral organization might also report that
Israeli arabs have full civil rights.
>The Israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these
>neutral reporters.
Care to name names, or is this yet another unsubstantiated
slander?
>So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
>They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.
Terrorism, as you would know if you had a spine that allowed
you to stand up, is random attacks on civilians.  Terorism includes
such things as shooting a cripple and thowing him off the side of a
boat because he happens to be Jewish.  Not allowing people to go where
they are likely to be stabbed and killed, like a certain lawyer killed
last week, is not terorism.
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Legality of the jewish purchase
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 46
In article <1993Apr21.181628.23279@news.columbia.edu> ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.214951.19180@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>It was shafting on the part of the Arab land owners for doing it
>without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible
>enough to make provisions for them, but rather just leaving
>them to their fate.
If a landlord sells an apartment building "vacant" to another landlord
and fails to notify his tenants, they just might find themselves out
on the street all of a sudden.  The seller may be a scoundrel and a
crook but this doesn't make the buyer a "thief", as Israelis are so
often called here on tpm.
>>It is interesting though that you acknowledge that the
>>palestinians were shafted. Do many Israelis or Jews share
>>your opinion ?  Do you  absolve the purchaser from
>>any ethical commitments just because it wasn't written down?
>
>I don't know if others share this opinion.  It is mine,
>and I'm sure there are some who agree and some who don't
>The way I see it, the fallahin were caught in circumstances
>beyond their control, in that since they didn't own the land,
>they didn't have a say. Of course, now for the sake of the "greater
>Arab unity" the Arabs are angry that the land was sold to the Jews
>(an act that is illegal in Jordan), but when it happened, it was just
>business.
The Arabs that lived along the coast in Western Palestine, later to be
called Israel, were shafted by their brother Arabs just as they've
been shafted for decades since then by their Arab bretheren.  Somehow,
though, the Arab call has continued to blame Israel, not only for the
Syrian landowner sell-out in Western Palestine (Israel) but even for
the occupation of Eastern Palestine (Jordan) by the Hashemites.  This
is just more of refusing to take blame for one's own actions.
>>infra-structure etc...). IMHO the Palestinians have grounds
>>to contest the legality of the purchase, say in world court.
If your job was eliminated in a corporate takeover, you could probably
go to court, too.  You'd probably lose, though.
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: About this 'Center for Policy Resea
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 85
In article <1483500350@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>It seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested
>who is behind the Center for Polict Research. I will oblige.
Trumpets, please.
>My name is Elias Davidsson, Icelandic citizen, born in Palestine. My
>mother was thrown from Germany because she belonged to the 'undesirables'
>(at that times this group was defined as 'Jews'). She was forced to go
>to Palestine due to many  cynical factors.
"Forced to go to Palestine."  How dreadful.  Unlike other
undesirables/Jews, she wasn't forced to go into a gas chamber, forced
under a bulldozer, thrown into a river, forced into a "Medical
experiment" like a rat, forced to march until she dropped dead, burned
to nothingness in a crematorium.  Your mother was "forced to go to
Palestine."  You have our deepest sympathies.
>I have meanwhile settled in Iceland (30 years ago)
We are pleased to hear of your escape.  At least you won't have to
suffer the same fate that your mother did.
>and met many people who were thrown out from
>my homeland, Palestine,
Your homeland, Palestine?
>because of the same reason (they belonged to
>the 'indesirables').
Should we assume that you are refering here to Jews who were kicked
out of their homes in Jerusalem during the Jordanian Occupation of
East Jerusalem?  These are the same people who are now being called
thieves for re-claiming houses that they once owned and lived in and
never sold to anyone?
>These people include my neighbors in Jerusalem
>with the children of whom I played as child. Their crime: Theyare
>not Jews.
I have never heard of NOT being a Jew as a crime.  Certainly in
Israel, there is no such crime.  In some times and places BEING a Jew
is a crime, but NOT being a Jew??!!
>My conscience does not accept such injustice, period.
Our brains do not accept your logic, yet, either.
>My
>work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism
>and racial discrimination. Those who protest against such practices
>in Arab countries have my support - as long as their protest is based
>on a principled position, but not as a tactic to deflect criticism
>from Israel.
The way you've written this, you seem to accept criticism in the Arab
world UNLESS it deflects criticism from Israel, in which case, we have
to presume, you no longer support criticism of the Arab world.
>The struggle against discrimination and racism is universal.
Look who's taling about discrimination now!
>The Center for Policy Research is a name I gave to those activities
>undertaken under my guidance in different domains, and which command
>the support of many volunteers in Iceland. It is however not a formal
>institution and works with minimal funds.
Be careful.  You are starting to sound like Barfling.
>Professionally I am music teacher and composer. I have published
>several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in Europe.
>
>I would hope that discussion about Israel/Palestine be conducted in
>a more civilized manner. Calling names is not helpful.
Good.  Don't call yourself "ARF" or "the Center for Policy Research",
either.
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Organization: MCSNet Contributor, Chicago, IL
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.mcs.com
In article <C5wpAD.74K@specialix.com> jim@specialix.com (Jim Maurer) writes:
>arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>>>
>
>
>>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>
>The donations are tax deductible like any donations to a non-profit
>organization.  I've donated money to a group restoring streetcars
>and it was tax deductible.  Why don't you contribute to a group
>helping the homeless if you so concerned?
I do (did) contribute to the ARF mortgage fund but when interest
rates plumetted, I just paid it off.
The problem is, I couldn't convince Congress to move my home to
a nicer location on Federal land.
BTW, even though the building is alleged to be funded by tax exempt
private funds, the maintainence and operating costs will be borne by
taxpayers forever.
Would anyone like to guess how much that will come to and tell us why
this point is never mentioned?
js
From: mkramer@world.std.com (Mark W Kramer)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems
Keywords: philosphy, Greece, Persians, math
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 5
A delightful message, interesting, and so kindly written.  Thanks.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Prof. M. Kramer, Boston University
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Article-I.D.: das.1993Apr26.184547.20058
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 65
In article <2BDAD779.24910@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
>Actually, I'm still trying to understand the self-justifying rationale
>behind the recent murder of Ian Feinberg (?) in Gaza.
Hate to be simple minded about this Tim, but I think its
really very simple.  He was a dirty Jew.  And the only good Jew, in
some peoples mind, is a dead Jew.  Thats what 40 years of propaganda
that fails to discriminate between Jew and Zionist will do.  Thats
what 20 years of statements like the ones I've appended will do to
someones mind.  They make people sick.  They drag down political
discourse to the point where killing your opponent is an honorable way
to resolve a dispute.
What else can come of such demagogery?  Peace?
Adam
Arafat on political pluralism:
``Any Palestinian leader who suggests ending the intifada
exposes himself to the bullets of his own people and
endangers his life.  The PLO will know how to deal with
him.''
--- Arafat, Kuwaiti News Agency, 1/2/89
Arafat on the massacre at Tienamin Square:
``...  on behalf of the Arab Palestinian People, their
leadership, and myself...  [I] take this opportunity to express
extreme gratification that you were able to restore normal order
after the recent incidents in People's China.''
--- Arafat in telegram sent to the head of the Chinese Communist Party
Yassir Arafat, humanitarian:
``Open fire on the new Jewish immigrants ...  be they from the
Soviet Union, Ethiopia, or anywhere else.  It would be a disgrace if
we did not lift a finger while herds of immigrants settle our
territory.  I want you to shoot...  It makes no difference if they
live in Jaffa or Jericho.  I give you explicit orders to open fire.
Do everything to stop the flow of immigration.''
--- Yassir Arafat, Al Muharar (Lebanese weekly), April 10, 1990
Yassir Arafat on genocide:
``When the Arabs set off their volcano, there will only be Arabs in
this part of the world.  Our people will continue to fuel the torch
of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the
occupied homeland is liberated...''
--- Yasser Arafat, AP, 3/12/79
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Letter to President, Members of Congress, Newspapers, TV Stations...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
News-Software: FSUUCP 1.2 R4
Lines: 111
Today marks the 78th anniversary of the Armenian genocide of
2.5 million Turks and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia and x-Soviet
Armenia. The following letter, which represents a small portion
of the full text, along with more than 200 pages of historical
documents, scholarly sources, eyewitness accounts and photographs,
was sent to President Bill Clinton, members of Congress, editors,
program directors and columnists of major newspapers, journals and
radio/TV stations for the 78th anniversary of the Armenian genocide
of 2.5 million Muslim people. On April 23 of every year, the people
of Turkiye remember their dead. They grieve for lost family and the
lost homes of their grandfathers. This year the Turkish Nation is
mourning and praying again for her fallen heroes who gave their
lives generously and with altruism, so that the future generations
may live on that anointed soil of the Turkish land happily and
prosperously.
------------------------- letter ----------------------------------
During the years of World War I, the x-Soviet Armenian Government
has planned and perpetrated the 'Genocide' of the Muslim people, which
not only took the lives of 2.5 million Muslim people, but was also the
method used to empty the Turkish homeland of its inhabitants. To this day,
Turkish historic lands remain occupied by the x-Soviet Armenia. In order
to cover up the fact of its usurpation of the historic Turkish homeland,
which is the crux of Turkish political demands, fascist x-Soviet Armenia
continues its anti-Turkish policy in the following ways:
1. x-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide
in order to shift international public opinion away from its political
responsibility.
2. x-Soviet Armenia, employing ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism
Triangle, attempts to call into question the veracity of the Turkish
Genocide.
3. x-Soviet Armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through
the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle in an attempt to
silence the Turkish people's vehement demands and protests.
4. Using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-Soviet
Armenia and its tools in the United States attempt to silence through
terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-Turkish supporters
of the Turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian.
Using all the aforementioned methods, the x-Soviet Armenian Government
is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from
making the Turkish Case a contemporary issue.
Yet despite the efforts of the x-Soviet Armenian Government and its
terrorist and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks
to the struggle of those whose closest ones have been systematically
exterminated by the Armenians, the international wall of silence on
this issue has begun to collapse, and consequently a number of
governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition
of the Turkish Genocide.
With the full knowledge that the struggle for the Turkish territorial
demands are still in their initial stages, the Turkish and Kurdish people
will unflaggingly continue in this sacred struggle, therefore the victims
of the Turkish Genocide demand:
1. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government, as the heirs of the Armenian
Dictatorship, recognize the Turkish Genocide;
2. that x-Soviet Armenia return the historic homeland to the Turkish and
Kurdish people;
3. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government make material reparations for
their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the Turkish Genocide;
4. that all world governments, and especially the United States, officially
recognize the Turkish Genocide and Turkish territorial rights and refuse
to succumb to all Armenian political pressure;
5. that the U.S. Government free itself from the friendly position it
has adopted towards its unreliable ally, x-Soviet Armenia, and officially
recognize the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide as well as be
supportive of the pursuit of Turkish territorial demands;
6. that the x-Soviet Republics officially recognize the historical fact
of the Turkish Genocide and include the cold-blooded extermination of
2.5 million Muslim people in their history books.
The awareness of the Turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the
efforts to pursue the Turkish Cause is seen by the victims of the first
genocide of the 20th century as a positive step. Furthermore, a new
generation has risen - equipped with a deep sense of commitment, politically
mature and conscious, who determinedly pursue the Turkish Cause, through
all necessary means, ranging from the political and diplomatic to the
armed struggle. Therefore, the victims of the Turkish Genocide call upon
all Muslims in the United States and Canada to participate vigorously in
the political, cultural and religious activities of the 78th Anniversary
of the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Freeman
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Lines: 5
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
Watch your language ASSHOLE!!!!
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?
Summary: Davidsson can't even get the most basic facts right.
Nntp-Posting-Host: qso.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 27
In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>[...]
>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>strip and seek work in Israel.
Anyone who can repeate this choice piece of tripe without checking
his/her sources does not deserve to be believed.  The Gaza strip does
not possess the highest population density in the world.  In fact, it
isn't even close.  Just one example will serve to illustrate the folly
of this statement:  the city of Hong Kong has nearly ten times the
population of the Gaza strip in a roughly comparable land area.  The
centers of numerous cities also possess comparable, if not far higher,
population densities.  Examples include Manhattan Island (NY City), Sao
Paolo, Ciudad de Mexico, Bombay,...
Need I go on?  The rest of Mr. Davidsson's message is no closer to the
truth than this oft-repeated statement is.
--
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu>
Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University
Lines: 35
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Keywords:
In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of
>the muslim a s well as jewish religion, among others.
Israel has a right to keep Jerusalem for many reasons.  They
include the fact that the majority of the citizens are Israeli, the
fact that Israel maintains religious freedom for all people, and the
historical connection of Judaism to Jerusalem.
When Jerusalem was devided by a Jordanian invasion in 1948,
the cease fire agreement included the right of individuals to visit
religious shrines.  This cease fire agreement was violated by Jordan,
who did not allow Jews to visit holy sites under their control.  The
Jordanians also bulldozed every synagoge in the city.  They turned a
Jewish cemetary into a hotel, and used the gravestones in their
latrines.
Israel has allowed individuals of all religions into
Jerusalem, protected holy sites, and demonstrated its fitness to
control the city.
Also, I should point out that Islam is not centered in
Jerusalem, but has holy sites there.  The home of Islam is Mecca,
where all Muslims should make a pilgramage (the hajj).  Unlike Israeli
Jerusalem, Jews and Christians are not allowed in Saudi Mecca.
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 25
In article <22APR93.23368145.0079@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>In article <1993Apr22.093527.15720@donau.et.tudelft.nl> avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl (Avi Cohen Stuart) writes:
>>From article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>, by Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>:
>>There is one big difference between Israel and the Arabs, Christians in this
>>respect.
>>
>>Israel allows freedom of religion.
>Avi,
>   For your information, Islam permits freedom of religion - there is
>no compulsion in religion.  Does Judaism permit freedom of religion
>(i.e. are non-Jews recognized in Judaism).  Just wondering.
In Islam, there is no compulsion, just a tax on dhimini.  In
Judaism, non-Jews are allowed to do as they wish, and there is no
effort made to convert them.
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems
Summary: Mr. Koc wins a free prize!
Keywords: philosophy, Greece, Persians, math
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 43
In article <1r6qn1INNd0n@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya
Koc) responded to article <1993Apr22.152937.14766@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.
sdpa.org (David Davidian) who wrote:
[DD]  Problem 1
[DD]
[DD] My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the
[DD] Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed
[DD] extraordinary heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the
[DD] Persian troops. The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army.
[DD] The second time, pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the
[DD] soldiers. The third time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army.
[DD] The Persians who were still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to
[DD] Nakhichevan. And so, from this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers
[DD] there were before the massacre.
[Koc] Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760
Good for you! You win the prize -- a free trip to Karabakh as an Azeri
soldier! Now, calculate the odds of you coming back after trying to de-populate
the area of Armenians!
[Koc] Corollary: Armenians strike, slaughter, destroy, and massacre. After
[Koc] all, they are not as innocent as the asala network claims.
Fact: I didn't notice any mention of Turks in Shirak, Van, or Trebizon in
this seventh century story!
Fact: These places were filled with Armenians as of 1915.
Fact: By the end of 1916, after the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, there
were no Armenians left in Shirak, Van, or Trebizon -- only Turks and
Kurds! In fact, there were no Pontus Greeks left alive in Trebizon
either!
Conclusion: Numbers don't lie in either case!
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 31
In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
Other people have commented on most of this swill, I figured
I'd add a few comments of my own.
>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
Hong Kong, and Cairo both have higher population densities.
>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>strip and seek work in Israel.
There is no fundamental right to work in another country.  And
the closing of the strip is not a punishment, it is a security measure
to stop people from stabbing Israelis.
>The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
>Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.
Dozens minus one, since one of them was stabbed to death a few
days ago.
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?
Nntp-Posting-Host: qso.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 50
In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:
>
>In article <HM.93Apr24133027@angell.cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>|> In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>|>
>|>    Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
>|>    ------------------------------------
>|>
>|>    While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
>|>    repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
>|>    attempt to starve the Gazans.
>|>
>|>    [...]
>|>
>|> The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
>|> their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
>|> and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
>|> Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.
>|>
>|> Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
>|> Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.
>|>
>|> You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
>|> am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.
>|>
>|> Harry.
>
>O.K., its my turn:
>
>       DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!
>
>I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
>to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
>plan !
This has been discussed before, by several people, on this net.  The
statement is attributable either to Hajj Amin al-Husseini, former Grand
Mufti of Jerusalem - and the leader of the Palestinian death squads
during the 1948 war, or to one of his chief henchmen.
It was not coined by B'nai B'rith or, for that matter, any Jewish
organization.
--
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu>
Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Symbiotics: Idiots-Antisemitism
Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University
Lines: 27
In article <1483500355@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>
>Zionism and the Holocaust
>-------------------------- by Haim Bresheeth
>
>The first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history
>of the Holocaust by Zionist propaganda is that Zionism without
>anti-semitism is impossible. Zionism agrees with the basic tenet
>of anti-Semitism, namely that Jews cannot live with non- Jews.
Wrong.  Zionism *acknowledges* the fact that anti-Semites
exist, and prevent Jews from living in peace.  That does not mean we
agree that Jews are all greedy, that Jews kill Christian Children,
commited deicide, or anything else.  We acknowledge that there are
morons out there who do believe these things.
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: Go Hizbollah II!
Reply-To: bh437292@lance.colostate.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: traver.lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University
Lines: 15
In article <1993Apr24.202201.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
|>      Paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that
|> 	the Hizbollah fires on the Galilee, they justify Israel's
|> 	holding to the security zone.
|>
|> Noam
I only want to say that I agree with Noam on this point
and I hope that all sides stop targeting civilians.
Basil
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Happy Birthday Israel!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 2
Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 39
In article <1993Apr26.172744.23230@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>>
>>[...]
>>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
>>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>>strip and seek work in Israel.
>
>Anyone who can repeate this choice piece of tripe without checking
>his/her sources does not deserve to be believed.  The Gaza strip does
>not possess the highest population density in the world.  In fact, it
>isn't even close.  Just one example will serve to illustrate the folly
>of this statement:  the city of Hong Kong has nearly ten times the
>population of the Gaza strip in a roughly comparable land area.  The
>centers of numerous cities also possess comparable, if not far higher,
>population densities.  Examples include Manhattan Island (NY City), Sao
>Paolo, Ciudad de Mexico, Bombay,...
>
>Need I go on?  The rest of Mr. Davidsson's message is no closer to the
>truth than this oft-repeated statement is.
>
Elias' initial statement certain *is* hot air. But it seems to be
almost standard procedure around here to first throw out an absurb,
overstated image in order to add extra "meaning" to the posting's
*real point*.
However, his second statement *is* quite real. The essential sealing off
of Gaza residents from the possibility of making a living *has happened*.
Certainly, the Israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took,
but isn't that action a little draconian?
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?
In-Reply-To: ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU's message of Sun, 25 Apr 93 17:10:03 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Brown University
<1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>
Lines: 81
In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:
In article <HM.93Apr24133027@angell.cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
|> In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
|>
|>    Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
|>    ------------------------------------
|>
|>    While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
|>    repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
|>    attempt to starve the Gazans.
|>
|>    [...]
|>
|> The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
|> their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
|> and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
|> Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.
|>
|> Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
|> Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.
|>
|> You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
|> am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.
|>
|> Harry.
O.K., its my turn:
DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!
I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
plan !
(Pro Israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity
since it was coined by Bnai Brith)
What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
Law. This would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the Jews in
Palestine took control of the land and its (mostly Muslim) inhabitants.
However, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their
homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. The political
thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the
Jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice.
As for the PLO, I am at a loss to explain what is going inside Arafat's mind.
Although their political thinking seems far fetched with Israel acting as a true
super-power in the region, the Islamic movements are using the same weapon the
Jews used to establish their state : Religion.
Ahmed.
Forget the syntax, Ahmed, and focus on the semnatics. The fact is that
the PLO does not recognize Israel's right to exist. This is perfectly
obvious from the PLO covenant (Cairo, 1968). The covenant calls for
the destruction of the "Zionist entity". As far as I know the
Israel-destruction clauses still exist in the document which specifies
the purpose for the existence of the PLO. If you would like, I can
post the relevant caluses.
Now the Hamas ideal is far more radical, it seems. I know it has been
posted here several times, and while I do not have a copy of it, I am
sure that someone does and he (or she, of course) would be more than
happy to repost it.
Regardless of phrasing, groups like Hamas, and the Hezbollah, and
even the newly moderate and politically-correct PLO, have at the very
heart of their ideologies the need for the destrcution of Israel.
It just seems to me that Mr. Davidsson's suggestion that Jews support
people envolved in these organizations is not a particularly appealing
one to many Jews.
Harry.
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Go Hizbollah II!
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 26
In article <Apr26.175327.86241@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>In article <1993Apr24.202201.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
>|>      Paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that
>|> 	the Hizbollah fires on the Galilee, they justify Israel's
>|> 	holding to the security zone.
>|>
>|> Noam
>
>
>
>I only want to say that I agree with Noam on this point
>and I hope that all sides stop targeting civilians.
>
>Basil
>
Absolutely. I'm sure that civilians on both sides would be pleased
if the fighters (military, guerilla, whatever) would just take their
argument elsewhere, find an unpopulated area somewhere, and slug it out.
At that point, we will all breath a sigh of relief *and* cheer for
our side in the struggle.
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Sea?  What sea? We said rivers!
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 27
In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:
>I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance
>attributed to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven
>as part of their plan!
Ok, I'll admit it.  I can't find a quote with my meager online
resources.  but i did find this little gem:
``When the Arabs set off their volcano, there will only be Arabs in
this part of the world.  Our people will continue to fuel the torch
of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the
occupied homeland is liberated...''
--- Yasser Arafat, AP, 3/12/79
So, Ahmed is right.  There was nothing about driving Jews into
the sea, just a bit of "ethnic cleansing," and a river of blood.
Is this an improvement?
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: The Israeli Press
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: composer.think.com
In article <benali.735836579@alcor>, benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
|>
|> Of course you never read Arab media,
I don't, though when I was in Israel I did make a point of listening
to JTV news, as well as Monte Carlo Radio.  In the United States,
I generally read the NYT, and occasionally, a mainstream Israeli
newpaper.
|> I read Arab, ISRAELI (Jer. Post, and this network is more than enough)
|> and Western (American, French, and British) reports and I can say
|> that if we give Israel -10 and Arabs +10 on the bias scale (of course
|> you can switch the polarities) Israeli newspapers will get either
|> a -9 or -10, American leading  newspapers and TV news range from -6
|> to -10 (yes there are some that are more Israelis than Israelis)
|> The Montreal suburban (a local free newspaper) probably is closer
|> to Kahane's views than some Israeli right wing newspapers, British
|> range from 0 (neutral) to -10, French (that Iknow of, of course) range
|> from +2 (Afro-french magazines) to -10, Arab official media range from
|> 0 to -5 (Egyptian)  to +9 in SA. Why no +10? Because they do not want to
|> overdo it and stir people against Israel and therefore against them since
|> they are doing nothing.
What you may not be taking into account is that the JP is no longer
representative of the mainstream in Israel.  It was purchased a few
years ago and in the battle for control, most of the liberal and
left-wing reporters walked out.  The new owner stated in the past,
more than once, that the JP's task should be geared towards explaining
and promoting Israel's position, more than attacking the gov't (Likud
at the time).  The paper that I would recommend reading, being middle
stream and factual is "Ha-Aretz" - or at least this was the case two
years ago.
|> the average bias of what you read would be probably around -9,
|> while that of the average American would be the same if they do
|> not read or read the new-york times and similar News-makers, and
|> -8 if they read some other RELATIVELY less biased newspapers.
And what about the "Nat'l Enquirer"? 8^)
But seriously, if one were to read some of the leftist newspapers
one could arrive at other conclusions.  The information you received
was highly selective and extrapolating from it is a bad move.
--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!
In-Reply-To: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu's message of Mon, 26 Apr 1993 17:57:50 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Brown University
Lines: 6
In article <C63r8F.76s@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!
May you and your neighbors know peace even before you see 46.
From: hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 25
koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya Koc) writes:
>> Problem 1
>>
>> My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the
>> Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary
>> heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops.
>> The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time,
>> pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third
>> time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were
>> still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from
>> this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the
> massacre.
>>
>Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760
>Corollary: Armenians strike, slaughter, destroy, and massacre. After all,
>           they are not as innocent as the asala network claims.
Hmm ... Turks sure know how to keep track of deaths, but they seem to
lose count around 1.5 million.
Hovig
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: To be exact, 2.5 million Muslims were exterminated by the Armenians.
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Lines: 34
ac = In <9304202017@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
pl = linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden)
pl: 1.  So, did the Turks kill the Armenians?
ac: So, did the Jews kill the Germans?
ac: You even make Armenians laugh.
ac: "An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
ac: systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of
ac: the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at
ac: least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The
ac: memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and
ac: eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
ac: 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
Typical Mutlu.  PvdL asks if X happened, the response is that Y
happened.  Even if we grant that the Armenians *did* do what Cosar
accuses them of doing, this has no bearing on whether the Turks did
what they are accused of.
While I can understand how an AI could be this stupid, I
can't understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let
such an AI run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself.
I do not expect any followup to this article from Argic to do anything
to alleviate my puzzlement.  But maybe I'll see a new line from his
list of insults.
--
/|/-\/-\          This article is supplied without longbox
|__/__/_/        and uses recycled 100% words, characters and ideas.
|warren@
/ nysernet.org
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?
Nntp-Posting-Host: bellini.berkeley.edu
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
Lines: 27
In article <HM.93Apr26143210@barney.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:
>
>	  DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!
>
>   I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
>   to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
>   plan !
>
Proven?  Maybe not.  But it can certainly be verified beyond a reasonable doubt.  This
statement and statements like it are a matter of public record.  Before the Six Day War (1967)
I think Nasser and some other Arab leaders were broadcasting these statements on
Arab radio.  You might want to check out some old newspapers Ahmed.
>   What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
>   is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
>   Law.
I think if you take a look at the Hamas covenant (written in 1988) you might get a
different impression.  I have the convenant in the original arabic with a translation
that I've verified with Arabic speakers.  The document is rife with calls to kill jews
and spread Islam and so forth.
-Adam Schwartz
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
Reply-To: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Organization: The National Capital Freenet
Lines: 34
In a previous article, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) says:
>today ?  Finally, if Israel wants peace, why can't it declare what
>it considers its legitimate and secure borders, which might be a
>base for negotiations? Having all the above facts in mind, one
>cannot blame Arab countries to fear Israeli expansionism, as a
>number of wars have proved (1948, 1956, 1967, 1982).
Oh yeah, Israel was really ready to "expand its borders" on the holiest day
of the year (Yom Kippur) when the Arabs attacked in 1973.  Oh wait, you
chose to omit that war...perhaps because it 100% supports the exact
OPPOSITE to the point you are trying to make?  I don't think that it's
because it was the war that hit Israel the hardest.  Also, in 1967 it was
Egypt, not Israel who kicked out the UN force.  In 1948 it was the Arabs
who refused to accept the existance of Israel BASED ON THE BORDERS SET
BY THE UNITED NATIONS.  In 1956, Egypt closed off the Red Sea to Israeli
shipping, a clear antagonistic act.  And in 1982 the attack was a response
to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the Golan
Heights.  Children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and Israel
finally retaliated.  Nowhere do I see a war that Israel started so that
the borders could be expanded.
Steve
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
Reply-To: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Organization: The National Capital Freenet
Lines: 71
In a previous article, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) says:
>6. Your answer to the question concerning rights to return
>conflicts with what I was told, namely that hundreds of thousands
>of non-Jews who left for some reason or other the area under
>Israel control during the war of 1947-8, were prevented from
>returning for the sole reason they were not Jews. Jews who also
>left, for example to Europe, to avoid the clashes, were allowed to
>return. How can you justify such discrimination, if this is true ?
>Is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge
>somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in
>his homeland ?
You are conveniently ommitting the fact that the Arab governments told the
Arab citizens of Israel to leave Israel, join with the Arab armies so that
after what they felt like an assured victory occured, these Arabs could
return to their former homes, reclaim them as well as anything else they
wanted that belonged to Jews.  When the Arabs lost, Israel was left with
a bunch of people who has just tried to kill them who now wanted back
into the country as citizens.  What would you have done?  Let them in so
they could kill Jews?  Israel sees those Arabs who stayed as citizens
because they were loyal to Israel during the war and didn't leave.  Of
course some Arabs could have left to avoid the fighting but distinguishing
between the two is impossible.  Therefore a decision was made based on
secuturity of the country.
>8.  You maintain that there are some Israeli Arabs living in
>Israeli kibbutzim. I wonder how many and where. There is very
>little evidence available about that. As much as I know, many
>Arabs are working *for* kibbutzim, even for many years, but are
>not accepted as members. Could it be that kibbutzim do not want
>Arabs ?
No kibbutz that I have ever visited has any "employees" unless they had to
hire some people for the restaurants, hotels etc if there weren't enough
people ON the kibbutz to do them.  In such cases, they are paid properly.
If a kibbutz turns away an Arab, 9I have never seen or heard of this) but it
reflects only on the membership comittee of that kibbutz, not the whole
kibbutz movement.
>to keep it what way'. I am certain that if only religious
>communities in the U.S. would be asked, they would gladly abolish
>civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests
>to officiate marriages. But Israel has always been ruled by a
>secular majority. Your answer is not satisfactory.
This just shows how ignorant you are of Israeli politics.  Although the
major parties in Israel aren't religious (however not totally secular),
due to the format of the government (coalition) the religious parties have
always had a lot of pull since they were needed to form a majority coalition.
In fact, from what I heard the present government is the least influenced
by the religious parties in the existance of Israel.  Israel CANNOT be
called a secular state.  For instace, Haifa is the only city in the country
(except for maybe some Arab cities) where buses run on the Jewish Sabbath.
There are many other examples of religion in Israel.  Marriages in Israel
are NOT contolled by the state, but by Rabbis and Priests.  Obviously your
disbelief of this fact sheds some light of your ignorance of the country
you claim to know so much about.
Steve
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500352:000:3446
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 22 17:29:00 1993
Lines: 71
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
To:  shaig@Think.COM
Subject: Ten questions to Israelis
Dear Shai,
Your answers to my questions are unsatisfactory.
In the answer to my first question, concerning the nonexistence of
Israeli nationality, your answer conflicts with information I have
received from other quarters, according to which there are two
distinct categories of classifying Israelis:  Citizenship
(Ezrahut) and Nationality (Le'um). The former is used on passports
etc, and the later for daily identification in Israeli society. I
am told that people in Israel have to carry their ID cards at all
times and present them at many public places, almost every day.
These ID cards make clear who the holder is, a Jew or an Arab.
You maintain that this mainly because of religious services
provided. But do you really believe that this is the reason ?
Could you provide evidence that this is the case and that it
serves no other purpose ?
In the answer to my second questions, concerning the fact that
Israel has no fixed borders, you state that Israel's borders were
'shaped and reshaped by both war and peace'. According to what I
read, the first Zionists in the beginning of the Century, had
plans for the Jewish State to extend into what is Lebanon and into
Transjordan (Jordan). I also read that it was the express wish of
Ben-Gurion to not declare Israel's borders, when Israel was
established, as this might restrict Israel's opportunities for
later expansion. Israel often claims it right of existence on the
fact that Jews lived there 2000 years ago or that God promised the
land to them. But according to biblical sources, the area God
promised would extend all the way to Iraq. And what were the
borders in biblical times which Israel considers proper to use
today ?  Finally, if Israel wants peace, why can't it declare what
it considers its legitimate and secure borders, which might be a
base for negotiations? Having all the above facts in mind, one
cannot blame Arab countries to fear Israeli expansionism, as a
number of wars have proved (1948, 1956, 1967, 1982).
Your answer to my third question is typical of a Stalinist public
official. I don't think your answer is honest.  You refer me to
Vanunu's revelations about Israel's nuclear arsenal without
evaluating the truthfullness of his revelations. Now if he said
the truth, then why should he been punished, and if he lied, why
should he be punished? I would appreciate more honesty.
Somebody provided an answer to the fourth question, concerning
'hidden prisoners' in Israeli prisons. He posted an article from
Ma'ariv documenting such cases.  It seems that such prisoners do
exist in Israel. What do you think about that ?
You imply that my questions show bias and are formulated in such a
way to 'cast aspersions upon Israel'. Such terms have often been
used by the Soviet Union against dissidents: They call the Soviet
Union into disrepute. If my questions are not disturbing, they
would not call forth such hysterical answers. My questions are
clearly provocative but they are meant to seek facts. I would be
very happy if you could convince me that what I am told about
Israel were just fabrications, but alas you have failed to do so.
I suspect that you fear the truth and an open and honest
discussion. This is a sign of weakness, not of strength.
I hope you will muster the courage to seek the full truth.
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1483500352:cdp:1483500353:000:3689
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Apr 22 17:31:00 1993
Lines: 83
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
Dear Josh
I appreciate the fact that you sought to answer my questions.
Having said that, I am not totally happy with your answers.
1.   You did not fully answer my question whether Israeli ID cards
identify the holders as Jews or Arabs. You imply that U.S.
citizens must identify themselves by RACE. Is that true ? Or are
just trying to mislead the reader ? Do you know of any democratic
country where people are asked to reveal their ethnical or
religious identity to any public official who so requests ?
2.  The answer to the second question is evasive. There are all
kinds of maps issued.  They are not equivalent to State policy.
You did not respond to my question.
3.  Your answer to the third question (Israeli nuclear arsenal) is
interesting. You say that Israeli 'probably' stocks nuclear
weapons. What evidence have you for maintaining that ?
4.  My fourth question was answered by someone else who posted a
Ma'ariv article documenting such cases. I did not ask about cases
like Vanunu (everybody knew he was tried and imprisoned) but about
those about whom nobody even knows that they have been tried and
imprisoned.
5.  Thanks for clarifying the question concerning the legal status
of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. From it I
understand that there are two sets of laws in these ares, one for
the occupier (civil law) and one for the occupied (military law).
The law allows Israeli Arabs to settle in Hebron, it seems. If so,
why doesn't it allow Hebron Arabs to settle in Israel ?
6. Your answer to the question concerning rights to return
conflicts with what I was told, namely that hundreds of thousands
of non-Jews who left for some reason or other the area under
Israel control during the war of 1947-8, were prevented from
returning for the sole reason they were not Jews. Jews who also
left, for example to Europe, to avoid the clashes, were allowed to
return. How can you justify such discrimination, if this is true ?
Is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge
somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in
his homeland ?
7.  Somebody answered my 7.question regarding Y. Rabin signing an
order for ethnical cleansing in 1948. According to that
information, Y. Rabin signed the order for the expulsion of all
inhabitants of Lydda and Ramleh, about 50,000 people.  These
expulsions were helped by massacres of civilians and other
atrocities which remind Bosnia. I was referred to a book by
Israeli journalist Benny Goodman called The Origin of the
Palestinian Refugee Problem, published by Cambridge University
Press. Is this book available in your library ?
8.  You maintain that there are some Israeli Arabs living in
Israeli kibbutzim. I wonder how many and where. There is very
little evidence available about that. As much as I know, many
Arabs are working *for* kibbutzim, even for many years, but are
not accepted as members. Could it be that kibbutzim do not want
Arabs ?
9.  My question about the lack of civil marriage in Israel was
whether it is true that the Israeli legislator intended to
discourage intermarriage. You did not address this question but
evaded it by saying that the 'entire religious establishment wants
to keep it what way'. I am certain that if only religious
communities in the U.S. would be asked, they would gladly abolish
civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests
to officiate marriages. But Israel has always been ruled by a
secular majority. Your answer is not satisfactory.
I would be glad to have some more input from you after these
comments.
Elias
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 67
waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>
> > waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> > > ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> > >
> > > > First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> > > > Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> > > > about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you).
> > >
> > > Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's
> > > "qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany,
> > > show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.
> > >
> > > > 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> > > > justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> > > > attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> > > > not appreciated.
> > >
> > > ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were
> > > tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
> > > YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
> > > sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications"
> > > in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go
> > > back to the minors, junior.
> > 	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
> > others suffered physically. It is sad that people like you are
> > so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. Thanks
> > for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of
> > ignorant people I am dealing with. I included your letter since
> > I thought it demonstrated my point more than anything I could
> > write.
>
> -----
> When you're willing to actually support something you say with fact or
> argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned
> offense, let me know.  Otherwise, back to your own league, son.
I have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles.  This
Andi Beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism, yet
because he deviates from the norm of accepted opinion, you
attack him.  Why did not anyone venture to answer Andi's
question in an intelligent and unoffending manner?  The only
ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints with fact
are the Israelophiles.  Now will we please start having some
INTELLIGENT conversation?  You all are an insult to you race!
{assuming you are also semitic}
Now I have a comment concerning Israeli terrorism
during the 1930's and 1940's.  The Hirgun, and other branch -
off militant groups, did fight the British do get them out of
Palestine.  Yet I fail to see how this Israeli form of
terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the
Arabs.  These Jewish terrorist groups killed innocent British
soldiers, but not only thta also killed many Jews who were in
favor of a compromise with the Palestinians.  In addition, they
massacred an entire Palestinian village in 1948, contributing
to the exodus of the frightened Palestinians who feared their
very lives.
I mention this not because I'm anti semitic [I'm part
Jewish] but because this self righteousness on the part of the
Israelites pisses me off so.  I'm not as critical of the
Palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the
Jews.  It 's a damn shame that the Palestinians had to pay for
German and European anti semitism.
Pissed off at Immature,
Closeminded, Self righteous
Semites
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 32
eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu  writes:
> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>
> >I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
> >reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
> >reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
> >interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
>
> If you consider Israeli reporting of events in Israel to be propoganda, then
> consider the Washington Post's handling of American events to be propoganda
> too.  What makes the Israeli press inherently biased in your opinion?  I
> wouldn't compare it to Nazi propoganda either.  Unless you want to provide
> some evidence of Israeli inaccuracies or parallels to Nazism, I suggest you
> keep your mouth shut.  I'm sick and tired of all you anti-semites comparing
> Israel to the Nazis (and yes, in my opinion, if you compare Israel to the Nazis
> you are an anti-semite because you know damn well it isn't true and you are
> just trying to discredit Israel).
>
> Ed.
>
You know ed,...  You're right!  Andi shouldn't be comparing
Israel to the Nazis.  The Israelis are much worse than the
Nazis ever were anyway.  The Nazis did a lot of good for
Germany, and they would have succeeded if it weren't for the
damn Jews.  The Holocaust never happened anyway.  Ample
evidence given by George Schafer at Harvard, Dept. of History,
and even by Randolph Higgins at NYU, have shown that the
Holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain
sympathy to piush for the creation of Israel.
From: cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Reply-To: cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu
In a previous article, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) says:
>In article <2BDAD779.24910@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>>>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
>>>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>>>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
>
There are many cases, but I do not remeber names.  The Isralis shot and killed
a UN observer in Gaza in the first half of Intifada.
I believe that most of the world has seen pictures of Israeli soldiers who
were breaking the cameras of the reporters, kicking reporters out, confiscating
cassettes, and showing reporters militery orders preventing them from going
to hot areas to pick pictures and make reports.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 38
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
Although I realize that principle is not one of your strongest
points, I would still like to know why do do not ask any question
of this sort about the Arab countries.
If you want to continue this think tank charade of yours, your
fixation on Israel must stop.  You might have to start asking the
same sort of questions of Arab countries as well.  You realize it
would not work, as the Arab countries' treatment of Jews over the
last several decades is so bad that your fixation on Israel would
begin to look like the biased attack that it is.
Everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid 'Center for
Policy Research' is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot
who hates Israel.
Why don't you try being honest about your hatred of Israel?  I
have heard that your family once lived in Israel, but the members
of your family could not cut the competition there.  Is this true
about your family?  Is this true about you?  Is this actually not
about Israel, but is really a personal vendetta?  Why are you not
the least bit objective about Israel?  Do you think that the name
of your phony-baloney center hides your bias in the least?  Get a
clue, Mr. Davidsson.  Haven't you realized yet that when you post
such stupidity in this group, you are going to incur answers from
people who are armed with the truth?  Haven't you realized that a
piece of selective data here and a piece there does not make up a
truth?  Haven't you realized that you are in over your head?  The
people who read this group are not as stupid as you would hope or
need them to be.  This is not the place for such pseudo-analysis.
You will be continually ripped to shreds, until you start to show
some regard for objectivity.  Or you can continue to show what an
anti-Israel zealot you are, trying to disguise your bias behind a
pompous name like the 'Center for Policy Research.'  You ought to
know that you are a laughing stock, your 'Center' is considered a
joke, and until you either go away, or make at least some attempt
to be objective, you will have a place of honor among the clowns,
bigots, and idiots of Usenet.
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: "The Private Site of Manfredo Tichauer"
Lines: 16
backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
> In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ana
> Anas, of course ! The YAHUD needed blood for the matza. After all, Passover
> *was* last month :-)
^^^^^^^^^^
Josh, were you in such a hurry? WE celebrated Pesach THIS month, but only
with Xtian blood! Muslim blood hasn't been declared "Kosher le Pesach" by
our Hechscher (not yet) :-) :-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 1
Just kidding
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 13
In article <2BDC2931.17498@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>Certainly, the Israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took,
>but isn't that action a little draconian?
What alternative would you suggest be taken to safeguard the
lives of Israeli citizens?
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: "The Private Site of Manfredo Tichauer"
Lines: 83
ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you).
You really belong to the 25-30% of ignorants in USA who don't know what
the Holocaust ("Shoa" should be the real word) was. First you write in
Message-ID: <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU>
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 20:36:20 GMT
>  I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>  reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
^^^^^^^
and later, as somebody informed you about your gross mistake, you
write in
Message-ID: <1993Apr25.181351.1373@Virginia.EDU>
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 18:13:51 GMT
>  First let me correct myself in that it was Goerbels and
^^^^^^^^
>  not Goering (Airforce) who ran the Nazi propaganda machine.
instead of Joseph GOEBBELS. And you dare to say that you
"know more about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including "us")" ?
I'm sure you learned the history of Nazi Germany AND Austria from
your family.
> 	What I resent is ignorant statements that call people
> names when they disagree with your position. Opposing the
> atrocities commited by the Israeli governement hardly qualifies
> as anti-semitism. If you think name calling is a valid form of
> argument in intellectual circles, you need to get out more
> often.
Trying to make comparisons between Israels politics and Nazi German-
Austrian politics shows only your degree of ignorance (high), intellect
(low), humanity (none) and antisemitism (average). I respect anybody
who dissagrees with me as long as he respects me and discusses in a
civilized manner. I would never say that anybody that critizises Israel
and/or its politics is an antisemite, except he uses antisemitic
vocabulary/terminology/demagogy. Israel is not a perfect country and
its politicians also commits errors, even some of them are corrupt
(like politicians in any other country), but they carry a huge burden:
to care for the safety of ALL its citizens, and that is really not an
easy task in a country that is surrounded by enemies who only expect
that Israel commits the ONE BIG ERROR and wipe the country (and its
Jewish citizens plus the so-called collaborators, arabs that wanted to
live in peace with their Jewish neighbours) of the map. As I said,
Israel is not a perfect country, but it is the ONLY democracy in the
whole Middle-East and the only country in the world where Jews from
everywhere can have a refuge in case of persecutions in the countries
they are living.
Our long history has taught us that we cannot rely on non-Jewish
nations and its governments: as soon as there are more or les big
social-economical-political problems in any country, the first ones
that pay for the broken glasses are the Jews, and later the other
minorities of the country.
> I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> not appreciated.
This is really outrageous: 6.000.000 murdered Jews, besides the
thousands  who survived the Shoa in some way or another, and the rest
of the living ones mourning for all of them ! I don't know what you
call a "Civil Libertarian" (never heard about them) but I know only
one thing: if all of them think like you do it, then "Civil Libertarians"
is a new denomination for Antisemites. May other Civil Libertarians come
to word to this group so that we can learn if A.Beyer and me are right
(that Civil Libertarians are Antisemites), or that I'm wrong and he is
missusing that word.
BTW, I couldn't care less for what Andi Beyer appreciates.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hap@scubed.com (Hap Freiberg)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Nntp-Posting-Host: s3saturn
Organization: S-CUBED, A Division of Maxwell Labs; San Diego CA
Lines: 26
In article <SMITH.93Apr21183049@minerva.harvard.edu> smith@minerva.harvard.edu (Steven Smith) writes:
>dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>>     THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>>
>>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>> [Holocaust revisionism]
>>
>> Theodore J. O'Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical
>> Review.  Educated at Harvard University . . .
>
>According to the 1990 Harvard Alumni Directory, Mr. O'Keefe failed to
>graduate.  You may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated
>anywhere.
>
>Steven Smith
Is any education a prerequisite for employment at IHR ?
Is it true that IHR really stands for Institution of Hysterical Reviews?
Curious minds would like to know...
Hap
--
****************************************************************************************************
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Omnia Extares >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
****************************************************************************************************
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 169
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: composer.think.com
In article <1483500352@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
|>
|> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
|> Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
|>
|>
|> To:  shaig@Think.COM
|>
|> Subject: Ten questions to Israelis
|>
|> Dear Shai,
|>
|> In the answer to my first question, concerning the nonexistence of
|> Israeli nationality, your answer conflicts with information I have
|> received from other quarters, according to which there are two
|> distinct categories of classifying Israelis:  Citizenship
|> (Ezrahut) and Nationality (Le'um). The former is used on passports
|> etc, and the later for daily identification in Israeli society. I
|> am told that people in Israel have to carry their ID cards at all
|> times and present them at many public places, almost every day.
|> These ID cards make clear who the holder is, a Jew or an Arab.
|> You maintain that this mainly because of religious services
|> provided. But do you really believe that this is the reason ?
|> Could you provide evidence that this is the case and that it
|> serves no other purpose ?
A number of points.  You are making assumptions about the manner
in which the cards are used.  True, by law, all residents, citizens,
and tourists must carry a form of identification with them.  For
citizens, the standard ID is the ID card.  The purpose this serves
on a daily basis, wherein they are presented at public places,
is for the purpose of identifying the bearer.  This takes place
in banks (cashing checks), post offices (registered mail and such), etc...
Quite frankly, it was rare that I ever had to present my ID card
for such activities more than once per week.  There is no law or
requirement that forces people to wave their ID cards in public.
Furthermore, none of the services I outlined discriminate against
the bearer in any manner by having access to this information.
The only case that I can think of in which the Le'um field might
be taken into account is during interaction with the police,
based upon the scenario.  In general though, arab citizens are
clearly recognizable, as are non-arabs. Your argument therefore
becomes moot unless you can provide an example of how this field
is being used to discriminate against them officially.
|> In the answer to my second questions, concerning the fact that
|> Israel has no fixed borders, you state that Israel's borders were
|> 'shaped and reshaped by both war and peace'. According to what I
|> read, the first Zionists in the beginning of the Century, had
|> plans for the Jewish State to extend into what is Lebanon and into
|> Transjordan (Jordan). I also read that it was the express wish of
|> Ben-Gurion to not declare Israel's borders, when Israel was
|> established, as this might restrict Israel's opportunities for
|> later expansion. Israel often claims it right of existence on the
|> fact that Jews lived there 2000 years ago or that God promised the
|> land to them. But according to biblical sources, the area God
|> promised would extend all the way to Iraq. And what were the
|> borders in biblical times which Israel considers proper to use
|> today ?  Finally, if Israel wants peace, why can't it declare what
|> it considers its legitimate and secure borders, which might be a
|> base for negotiations? Having all the above facts in mind, one
|> cannot blame Arab countries to fear Israeli expansionism, as a
|> number of wars have proved (1948, 1956, 1967, 1982).
I take issue with your assertions.  I think that Arab countries
do know that they have nothing to fear from "Israeli expansionism".
Militarily, Israel is not capable of holding onto large tracts of
land under occupation to a hostile, armed, and insurgent population for a
sustained period of time.  As is, the intifada is heavily taxing
the Israeli economy.  Proof of this can be seen in the Israeli
withdrawal from Lebanon.  Israeli troops pulled back from the
Awali, and later from the Litani, in order to control the minimal
strip needed to keep towns out of range of Katyusha missile fire.
Public opinion in Israel has turned towards settling the intifada
via territorial concessions.  The Israel public is sufferring from
battle fatigue of sorts and the gov't is aware of it.
With regards to borders, let me state the following.  I may not agree
with the manner in which negotiations are being held, however the crux
of the matter is that everyone either makes or refrains from stating
a starting position.  The arab parties have called for total withdrawal
and a return to pre-48 borders.  If Israel were to state large borders,
the negotiations might never get under way.  If Israel were to state
smaller borders, then the arab countries might try and force even smaller
borders during the negotiations.  I think that leaving the matter to be
settled by negotiations and peace treaties is infinitely more realistic
and sensible.
|> Your answer to my third question is typical of a Stalinist public
|> official. I don't think your answer is honest.  You refer me to
|> Vanunu's revelations about Israel's nuclear arsenal without
|> evaluating the truthfullness of his revelations. Now if he said
|> the truth, then why should he been punished, and if he lied, why
|> should he be punished? I would appreciate more honesty.
Your statement is typical of the simple minded naivety of a "center for
policy research".  Whether or not all of Vanunu's revelations were true has no
bearing on the fact that some were.  For disclosing "state secrets"
after having signed contracts and forms with the understanding that
said secrets are not to be made public, one should be punished.
As to which were and which weren't, I am under no moral obligation
to disclose that - quite the reverse in fact.
He was taken to court, tried, and found guilty.  You may take issue
with a number of things but clearly you have no understanding of the
concept of "Secrets of state", something which every democratic govt
has.
|> Somebody provided an answer to the fourth question, concerning
|> 'hidden prisoners' in Israeli prisons. He posted an article from
|> Ma'ariv documenting such cases.  It seems that such prisoners do
|> exist in Israel. What do you think about that ?
I noticed that he was documenting the fact that such prisoners could exist
more than he documented the fact that they do exist.  The CLU noted,
which you evidently did not pay attention to, that they know of no such
reports or cases.  I am sorry to tell you but in a country of 4 mill,
as tightly knit as Israel, even if the matter of the arrest was not
made public, within a relatively short time frame, most people would know
about it.  My own feelings are that the matter of the arrest should be
made public unless a court order is issued allowing a delay of X hours.
This would be granted only if a judge could be convinced that an
announcement would cause irreparable harm to the ongoing investigation.
|> You imply that my questions show bias and are formulated in such a
|> way to 'cast aspersions upon Israel'. Such terms have often been
|> used by the Soviet Union against dissidents: They call the Soviet
|> Union into disrepute. If my questions are not disturbing, they
|> would not call forth such hysterical answers. My questions are
|> clearly provocative but they are meant to seek facts. I would be
|> very happy if you could convince me that what I am told about
|> Israel were just fabrications, but alas you have failed to do so.
|> I suspect that you fear the truth and an open and honest
|> discussion. This is a sign of weakness, not of strength.
Well, I am sorry to say that your questions are slanted.  Such
questions are often termed "tabloid journalism" and are not
disturbing because they avoid any attempt at objectivity.
Such questions were often used during the McCarthy era as
a basis for the witch-hunts that took place then.  To use
your own example, these questions might have been lifted
from the format used by Stalinist prosecutors that were looking
for small bits of evidence that they could distort and portray
as a larger and dirtier picture.
My answers were not any more "hysterical" than the questions
themselves.  The problem is not that the q's were provocative,
it was that they were selective in their fact seeking.  You
fall into the same category of those who seek "yes" "no" answers
when the real answer is "of sorts".
I suspect that as long as the answers to these questions is not an
unequivocal NO, you would remain unsatified and choose to interprete
them as you see fit.  A sign of strength is the ability to look
You remind me of those mistaken environmentalists who once advocated
culling wolves because of the cruelty to deer, only to find that they
had broken the food chain and wreaked havoc upon the very environment
they sought to protect.  The color blindness you exhibit is a true
sign of weakness.
|> I hope you will muster the courage to seek the full truth.
Ditto.
--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The wholesale extermination of the Muslim population by the Armenians.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 82
In article <C5yJII.E6B@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>But some of this is verifiable information.  For instance, the person who
>knows about the buggy product may be able to tell you how to reproduce the
>bug on your own, but still fears retribution if it were to be known that he
>was the one who told the public how to do so.
Typical 'Arromdian' of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism
Triangle. Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914
to 1920, the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin?
1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]
2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]
3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]
4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,3,4]
5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,2,3,4]
6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]
7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
Armenia.[1,2,3,4]
8) .....
[1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman
Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York
University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.
[2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
1985.
[3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and
Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.
[4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies
in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey
(Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of
Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University
Press 1977). pp. 315-316.
[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24,
1915.
Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape,
30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 178 (first paragraph)
"In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for
arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such
search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures
had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where
valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware of the
existence, although they had been unable to find them."
p. 175 (first paragraph)
"The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
be referred to in due course."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Minority Abuses in Greece.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 201
In article <C60B63.G2M@panix.com> mpoly@panix.com (Michael S. Polymenakos) writes:
> Well, ZUMABOT claims just the opposite: That Greeks are not allowing
>Turks to exit the country. Now, explain this: The number of Turks in
>Thrace has steadily risen from 50,000 in 23 to 80,000, while the Greeks of
Dr. Goebels thought that a lie repeated enough times could finally
be believed. I have been observing that 'Poly' has been practicing
Goebels' rule quite loyally. 'Poly's audience is mostly made of Greeks
who are not allowed to listen to Turkish news. However, in today's
informed world Greek propagandists can only fool themselves. For
instance, those who lived in 1974 will remember the TV news they
watched and the newspapers they read and the younger generation can
read the American newspapers of July and August 1974 to find out what
really happened.
There are in Turkiye the Greek Hospital, The Greek Girls' Lycee
Alumni Association, the Principo Islands Greek Benevolent Society,
the Greek Medical Foundation, the Principo Greek Orphanage Foundation,
the Yovakimion Greek Girls' Lycee Foundation, and the Fener Greek
Men's Lycee Foundation.
As for Greece, the longstanding use of the adjective 'Turkish'
in titles and on signboards is prohibited. The Greek courts
have ordered the closure of the Turkish Teachers' Association,
the Komotini Turkish Youth Association and the Ksanti
Turkish Association on grounds that there are no Turks
in Western Thrace. Such community associations had been
active until 1984. But they were first told to remove
the word 'Turkish' on their buildings and on their official
papers and then eventually close down. This is also the
final verdict (November 4, 1987) of the Greek High Court.
In the city of Komotini, a former Greek Parliamentarian of Turkish
parentage, was sentenced recently to 18 months of imprisonment
with no right to appeal, just for saying outloud that he was
of Turkish descent. This duly-elected ethnic Turkish official
was also deprived of his political rights for a period of three
years. Each one of these barbaric acts seems to be none other than
a vehicle, used by the Greek governments, to cover-up their inferiority
complex they display, vis-a-vis, the people of Turkiye.
The Agreement on the Exchange of Minorities uses the term 'Turks,'
which demonstrates what is actually meant by the previous reference
to 'Muslims.' The fact that the Greek governments also mention the
existence of a few thousand non-Turkish Muslims does not change the
essential reality that there lives in Western Thrace a much bigger
Turkish minority. The 'Pomaks' are also a Muslim people, whom all the
three nations (Bulgarians, Turks, and Greeks) consider as part of
themselves. Do you know how the Muslim Turkish minority was organized
according to the agreements? Poor 'Poly.'
It also proves that the Turkish people are trapped in Greece
and the Greek people are free to settle anywhere in the world.
The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish
minority. They pursue the same denial in connection with
the Macedonians of Greece. Talk about oppression. In addition,
in 1980 the 'democratic' Greek Parliament passed Law No. 1091,
virtually taking over the administration of the vakiflar and
other charitable trusts. They have ceased to be self-supporting
religious and cultural entities. Talk about fascism. The Greek
governments are attempting to appoint the muftus, irrespective
of the will of the Turkish minority, as state official. Although
the Orthodox Church has full authority in similar matters in
Greece, the Muslim Turkish minority will have no say in electing
its religious leaders. Talk about democracy.
The government of Greece has recently destroyed an Islamic
convention in Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an
attitude against the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a
violation of the Lausanne Convention as well as the 'so-called'
Greek Constitution, which is supposed to guarantee the protection
of historical monuments.
The government of Greece, on the other hand, is building new
churches in remote villages as a complementary step toward
Hellenizing the region.
And you pondered. Sidiropoulos, the president of the Macedonian Human
Rights Committee, became the latest victim of a tactic long used by
the Greeks to silence critics of policies of forced assimilation
of the Macedonian minority. A forestry official by occupation,
Sidiropoulos has been sent to 'internal exile' on the island of
Kefalonia, hundreds of kilometers away from his native Florina.
His employer, the Florina City Council, asked him to depart in
24 hours. The Greek authorities are trying to punish him for his
involvement in Copenhagen. He returned to Florina by his own choice
and remains without a job.
Helsinki Watch, a well-known Human Rights group, had been investigating
the plight of the Turkish Minority in Greece. In August 1990, their
findings were published in a report titled
'Destroying Ethnic Identity: Turks of Greece.'
The report confirmed gross violations of the Human Rights of the
Turkish minority by the Greek authorities. It says for instance,
the Greek government recently destroyed an Islamic convent in
Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an attitude against
the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a violation of the
Lausanne Convention.
The Turkish cemeteries in the village of Vafeika and in Pinarlik
were attacked, and tombstones were broken. The cemetery in
Karotas was razed by bulldozers.
Shall I go on? Why not? The people of Turkiye are not going
to take human rights lessons from the Greek Government. The
discussion of human rights violations in Greece does not
stop at the Greek frontier. In several following articles
I shall dwell on and expose the Greek treatment of Turks
in Western Thrace and the Aegean Macedonians.
It has been reported that the Greek Cypriot administration
has an intense desire for arms and that Greece has made
plans to supply it with the tanks and armored vehicles it
has to destroy in accordance with the agreement reached on
conventional arms reductions in Europe. Meanwhile, Greek
and Greek Cypriot officials are reported to have planned
to take ostentatious measures aimed at camouflaging the
transfer of these tanks and armored vehicles to southern
Cyprus, a process that will conflict with the spirit of
the agreement on conventional arms reduction in Europe.
An acceptable method may certainly be found when there
is a will. But we know of various kinds of violent
behaviors ranging from physical attacks to the burning
of buildings. The rugs at the Amfia village mosque were
dragged out to the front of the building and burnt there.
Shots were fired on the mosque in the village of Aryana.
Now wait, there is more.
'Greek Atrocities in the Vilayet of Smyrna (May to July 1919), Inedited
Documents and Evidence of English and French Officers,' Published by
The Permanent Bureau of the Turkish Congress at Lausanne, Lausanne,
Imprimerie Petter, Giesser & Held, Caroline, 5 (1919).
pages 82-83:
<< 1. The train going from Denizli to Smyrna was stopped at Ephesus
and the 90 Turkish travellers, men and women who were in it ordered
to descend. And there in the open street, under the eyes of their
husbands, fathers and brothers, the women without distinction of age
were violated, and then all the travellers were massacred. Amongst
the latter the Lieutenant Salih Effendi, a native of Tripoli, and a
captain whose name is not known, and to whom the Hellenic authorities
had given safe conduct, were killed with specially atrocious tortures.
2. Before the battle, the wife of the lawyer Enver Bey coming from
her garden was maltreated by Greek soldiers, she was even stript
of her garments and her servant Assie was violated.
3. The two tax gatherers Mustapha and Ali Effendi were killed in the
following manner: Their arms were bound behind their backs with wire
and their heads were battered and burst open with blows from the butt
end of a gun.
4. During the firing of the town, eleven children, six little girls
and five boys, fleeing from the flames, were stopped by Greek soldiers
in the Ramazan Pacha quarter, and thrown into a burning Jewish house
near bridge, where they were burnt alive. This fact is confirmed on oath
by the retired commandant Hussein Hussni Effendi who saw it.
5. The clock-maker Ahmed Effendi and his son Sadi were arrested and
dragged out of their shop. The son had his eyes put out and was then
killed in the court of the Greek Church, but Ahmed Effendi has been
no more heard of.
6. At the market, during the fire, two unknown people were wounded
by bayonets, then bound together, thrown into the fire and burnt alive.
The Greeks killed also many Jews. These are the names of some:
Moussa Malki, shoemaker          killed
Bohor Levy, tailor               killed
Bohor Israel, cobbler            killed
Isaac Calvo, shoemaker           killed
David Aroguete                   killed
Moussa Lerosse                   killed
Gioia Katan                      killed
Meryem Malki                     killed
Soultan Gharib                   killed
Isaac Sabah                      wounded
Moche Fahmi                      wounded
David Sabah                      wounded
Moise Bensignor                  killed
Sarah Bendi                      killed
Jacob Jaffe                      wounded
Aslan Halegna                    wounded....>>
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Nazi Armenians were of service to Germans in Arab countries as well.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 40
In article <1993Apr26.175246.24412@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>This has been discussed before, by several people, on this net.  The
>statement is attributable either to Hajj Amin al-Husseini, former Grand
>Mufti of Jerusalem - and the leader of the Palestinian death squads
>during the 1948 war, or to one of his chief henchmen.
Let us not forget the Nazi Armenians. Nazi Armenians were of service
to Germans in Arab countries as well. As Uzun put it, one well-known
case which received a lot of media-coverage involved two Nazi Armenian
agents which were dropped over Syria by Italian war planes. The mission
of the agents was to mingle among the Armenian population in Syria and
to acquire relevant information for the German Wehrmacht on the allied
forces in the area.[1] Nazi Armenians also helped German propaganda
efforts in Arab countries designed to promote pro-Nazi sentiments among
the French- and British-ruled Arab populations. Beirut had traditionally
been strong-hold of the Nazi Armenians and until very recently it was
the center of international Armenian terrorism.
In Russia General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Turkish
genocide in WWI, was working closely with the German Secret
Service. He entered the war zone with his own men and acquired
important intelligence about the Soviets. His experience with
the Turkish genocide in x-Soviet Armenia made him an invaluable
source for the Germans.[2]
[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 150.
[2] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 113; Patrick von zur Muehlen,
ibid., p. 84.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: 2.5 million Muslims perished of butchery at the hands of Armenians.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 92
In article <1993Apr25.015551.23259@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:
>	Actually, Jarmo is a permanent resident of my killfile
Anyone care to speculate on this? I'll let the rest of the net judge
this on its own merits. Between 1914 and 1920, 2.5 million Turks perished
of butchery at the hands of Armenians. The genocide involved not only
the killing of innocents but their forcible deportation from the Russian
Armenia. They were persecuted, banished, and slaughtered while much of
Ottoman Army was engaged in World War I. The Genocide Treaty defines
genocide as acting with a
'specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial part, a
national, ethnic, racial or religious group.'
History shows that the x-Soviet Armenian Government intended to eradicate
the Muslim population. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were exterminated by the
Armenians. International diplomats in Ottoman Empire at the time - including
U.S. Ambassador Bristol - denounced the x-Soviet Armenian Government's policy
as a massacre of the Kurds, Turks, and Tartars. The blood-thirsty leaders of
the x-Soviet Armenian Government at the time personally involved in the
extermination of the Muslims. The Turkish genocide museums in Turkiye honor
those who died during the Turkish massacres perpetrated by the Armenians.
The eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established,
beyond any doubt, that the massacres against the Muslim people
during the war were planned and premeditated. The aim of the policy
was clearly the extermination of all Turks in x-Soviet Armenian
territories.
The Muslims of Van, Bitlis, Mus, Erzurum and Erzincan districts and
their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed.
The massacres in Trabzon, Tercan, Yozgat and Adana were organized and
perpetrated by the blood-thirsty leaders of the x-Soviet Armenian
Government.
The principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent Muslims were
Dro, Antranik, Armen Garo, Hamarosp, Daro Pastirmadjian, Keri,
Karakin, Haig Pajise-liantz and Silikian.
Source: "Bristol Papers", General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in
the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly
defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."
Sources: (The Ottoman State, the Ministry of War), "Islam Ahalinin
Ducar Olduklari Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1918).
The French version: "Documents Relatifs aux Atrocites Commises par les Armeniens
sur la Population Musulmane," (Istanbul, 1919). In the Latin script: H. K.
Turkozu, ed., "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi," (Ankara,
1982). In addition: Z. Basar, ed., "Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara,
1974) and, edited by the same author, "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler -
Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978). "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ...," Vol. 32, 83
(December 1983), document numbered 1881.
"Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ....," Vol. 31, 81 (December 1982), document
numbered 1869.
"Those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning
with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken
in the direction of Sarikamis and annihilated. When the Russian army
withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in Armenian
massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked
in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places
selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs
were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after
being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. A very small part
of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the
cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering
from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived
in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to.
Including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not
exceed one thousand five hundred in Erzincan and thirty thousand in
Erzurum. All the fields in Erzincan and Erzurum are untilled, everything
that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them
in a destitute situation. At the present time, the people are subsisting
on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from Russian storages
left behind after their occupation of this area."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The 'justice' for the victims of the Armenian Barbarism and Fascism.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 102
In article <66118@licre.ludwig.edu.au> THEO@licre.ludwig.edu.au writes:
>>         First of all: it is called ISTANBUL.
>>         Let me even spell it for you: I S T A N B U L
>>                                       - - - - - - - -
>>
>>         Secondly: The Turks are also asking for their money, for
>>         their destroyed and confiscated properties in Greece, and
>>         former-Yugoslavia (Bosnia and Serbia).
>Classic !!
It is called 'The Justice'. We also demand that the x-Soviet Armenian
Government admit its responsibility for the Turkish and Kurdish
Genocide, render reparations to the Muslim people, and return the
land to its rightful owners. The recognition of the Genocide has
become an issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative
that artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed.
>Now if we're talking about rent and vandalism, let's make it fair then:
>Greece pays back it's dues and Turkey pays for 400 years rent and
>destruction of classical architecture. Deal? Democracy in action.
Are you the 'truelove' or 'falselove' of 'Arromdian' of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF
Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle?
"If Turks had behaved like Christians to use force to convert to Islam the
nations which they brought under their power, to which no one could have
opposed, today there would be no Eastern problem. But Turks did not do so.
They obeyed the word of the Koran to permit everybody "to worship in their own
way" centuries before Frederick the Great pronounced his famous dictum. Thus,
in an age when the Christian Europe itself shed Christian blood and when
people in Europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon those whose beliefs
differed from theirs, the Ottoman Empire became the sole country where the
inquisition did not exist, where deaths at the stake were unheard of and
where accusations of witchcraft were not made. And the barbarian (!) Turkey
was the only country where the Jews persecuted and chased away everywhere
by the Christians, could find asylum. These facts demonstrate that Muslim
countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than Christian
countries."[1]
"The Turks, who are a conquering nation, did not Turkify the nations that came
under their rule; instead, they respected their religions and traditions. It
was a stroke of luck for Romania to live under Turkish rule instead of
Russian or Austrian rule. Because otherwise there would not have been a
Romanian nation today" (Popescu Ciocanel).
"Turks rule over people under their administration only externally, without
interfering with their internal structures. On account of this, the autonomy
of minorities in Turkey is better and more complete than any in the most
advanced European countries."[2]
"...human beings hate each other on account of religious differences. This flaw
is older than Islam and Christianity. But there has never been any examples
of this adjuration in Turkey because Turks never oppress anybody on account
of his religion. If enmity on the basis of religion had been such a case of
simple contempt among us too, or if it did not keep translating itself into
action, many nations in our Europe would probably have considered themselves
happy!" (A. de Mortraye).[3]
"Turkey never became a scene for religious terror or for the cruelty of the
inquisition. On the contrary, it served as an asylum for the unfortunate
victims of Christian fanaticism. If you look into history, you will see that
in the fifteenth century thousands of Jews who were expelled from Spain and
Portugal found such a good asylum in Turkey that their descendants have been
living there very calmly all through these approximately three hundred years,
and are only forced to defend themselves in some countries against the
cruelty of Christians, especially that of the Orthodoxes. No Jew is able to
appear in public during Easter celebrations in Athens, even today. In Turkey,
however, if the Israelites are insulted by the Greek and Armenian communities,
local courts immediately take them under their protection."
"In that vast and calm country of the sultan, all religions and nations are
living together peacefully. Although the mosque is superior to the church and
the synagogue, it does not replace them. Because of this, the Catholic sect is
more free in Istanbul and Smyrna compared with Paris and Lyon. In addition
to the fact that no law in Turkey prohibits the open-air ceremonies of this
sect, neither does any law imprison its cross in the church. While the
dead are being taken to the graves, a long line of priests bear processional
candles and chant Catholic hymns. When all the priests in all the churches in
the Galata and Beyoglu districts go into the streets and form clerical
processions during the Eucharist celebrations, chanting hymns and bearing
their crosses and religious banners, a detachment of soldiers escorts them
which forces even the Turks to stand in respect around the group of
priests." (A. Ubicini).[4]
[1]  Ah. Djevat, "Yabancilara Gore Eski Turkler," 3rd ed. (Istanbul, 1978),
pp. 70-71.
[2]  Ibid., p.91.
[3]  Ibid., pp. 214-215.
[4]  Ibid., pp. 215-216.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: And Azeri survivors were killed by a shot to the back of the head.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 24
12/12 Armenian Atrocities
MOSCOW (AP) -- Azerbaijani forces on Saturday retook
three villages seized by Armenians and discovered 16 bodies
of executed civilians, Azerbaijani reports said.
The Azerbaijani fighters found 16 bodies of civilians,
including those of a child and two elderly women who were
shot point-blank, "and survivors were killed by a shot to
the back of the head," said a ministry statement, carried by
the Azerbaijani Azerinform and Turan news agencies and the
ITAR-Tass news service.
"Everywhere Armenian occupants were, they left tens of
corpses of civilians shot to death point-blank and
mutilated," the...
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
In-Reply-To: cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu's message of 26 Apr 93 22:22:28 GMT
Lines: 22
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
<2BDAD779.24910@news.service.uci.edu>
<1993Apr26.184547.20058@das.harvard.edu>
<1rhnb4$1pp@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
In article <1rhnb4$1pp@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>   In a previous article, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) says:
>
>   >In article <2BDAD779.24910@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>   >>In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>   >>>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>   >
>   >>>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>   >>>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
>   >
>
>   There are many cases, but I do not remeber names.  The Isralis shot and killed
>   a UN observer in Gaza in the first half of Intifada.
>...
Not exactly the same, but reminiscent of the assassination of Count
Bernadotte, who was _the_ UN negotiator during the 1948 Israeli war of
independence.  He was killed by the Israelis.  Seems he was being too
successful in negotiating a cease-fire, which would have worked
territorially against the nascent Israel, compared to continued war.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 29
In article <1993Apr23.225710.10438@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	What is a shame is that in Austria, daily reports of
>the inhuman acts commited by Israeli soldiers [...]
It wasn't all that long ago that the acts of Israeli soldiers were
described as "superhuman".  Now, they are "inhuman".  Did the Israelis
change so radically so quickly or have reporting attitudes changed?
> and the blessing
>received from the Government makes some of the Holocaust guilt
>go away. After all, look how the Jews are treating other races
>when they got power.
When the Jews were powerless, they did what they could to help others,
which was obviously quite limited.  Later, liberated American Jews
were on the forefront of the civil-rights movement.  The Jewish
government of Israel rescued Jews ranging in skin color from White
Russian to Brown Yemenite to Black Ethiopian.  Please, Andi, tell us
"how the Jews are treating other races when they got power."
>It is unfortunate.
Your ignorance and bias are indeed unfortunate.
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 17
In article <1rambk$cee@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
[Andi's posting deleted...]
Hamaza's only comment is:
>Well said Mr. Beyer :)
Andi, when you get the full-fledged support of Hamaza Salah, you know
you're on the wrong track.
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 17
In article <1993Apr25.222120.3411@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
>> ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were
>> tortured.  We ALL suffered.
>	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
>others suffered physically.
I'm just waiting for Andi to tell us that African Americans should
start paying compensation to White Americans who "suffered" from being
slave owners.
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: H.R. violations by Israel/Arab st.
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 37
In article <1483500360@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>I am born in Palestine (now Israel). I have family there. The lack of
>peace and utter injustice in my home country has affected me all my life.
Bullshit.  You've been in Iceland for the past 30 years.  You told us
so yourself.  It had something to do with not wanting to suffer the
fate of your mother, who has lived with Jews for a long time or
somesuch.  Sounded awful.
>I am concerned by Palestine (Israel) because I want peace to come to
>it. Peace AND justice.
Are you as concerned about peace and justice in Palestine (Jordan)?
>Israeli trights and Palestinian rights are not symmetrical. The first
>party has a state and the other has none. The first is an occupier and
>the second the occupied.
Let's say that Israel grants the PLO _EVERYTHING THEY EVER ASKED FOR_.
That Israel goes back to the 1967 borders.  What will the "Palestinean
Arabs" in Tel-Aviv call themselves?  The Palestineans in West
Jerusalem?  In Haifa?  Will they still claim to be "occupied"?
Or do you suggest that Israel expell or kill off any remaining Arabs,
much as the Arabs did to their Jews?
Indeed, there is much which is not symmetrical about the conflict in
the M.E.  And most of this lack of symmetry does NOT favor Israel.
>Elias Davidsson
>Iceland
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
Nntp-Posting-Host: supergas
Reply-To: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Lines: 25
In article <1483500352@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
>
>
>To:  shaig@Think.COM
>
>Subject: Ten questions to Israelis
>
>Dear Shai,
>
>Your answers to my questions are unsatisfactory.
So why don't ypu sue him.
----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #008 A
Summary: Part A
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 501
Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #008 Part A
Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
(Part A of #008)
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                  |
| "Oh, yes, I just remembered. While they were raping me they      |
|  repeated quite frequently, "Let the Armenian women have babies  |
|  for us, Muslim babies, let them bear Azerbaijanis for the       |
|  struggle against the Armenians." Then they said, "Those         |
|  Muslims can carry on our holy cause. Heroes!" They repeated     |
|  it very often."                                                 |
|                                                                  |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
DEPOSITION OF LYUDMILA GRIGOREVNA M.
Born 1959
Teacher
Sumgait Secondary School No. 10
Secretary of the Komsomol Organization at School No. 10
Member of the Sumgait City Komsomol Committee Office
Resident at Building 17/33B, Apartment 15
Microdistrict No. 3
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]
[Note: The events in Kafan, used as a pretext to attack Armenians in
Azerbaijan are false, as verified by independent International Human Rights
organizations - DD]
I'm thinking about the price the Sumgait Armenians paid to be living in
Armenia now. We paid for it in human casualties and crippled fates--the
price was too great! Now, after the Sumgait tragedy, we, the victims, divide
our lives into "before" and ''after." We talk like that: that was before the
war. Like the people who went through World War II and considered it a whole
epoch, a fate. No matter how many years go by, no matter how long we live,
it will never be forgotten. On the contrary, some of the moments become even
sharper: in our rage, in our sorrow, we saw everything differently, but now
. . . They say that you can see more with distance, and we can see those
inhuman events with more clarity now . . . we more acutely perceive our
losses and everything that happened.
Nineteen eighty-eight was a leap year. Everyone fears a leap year and wants it
to pass as quickly as possible. Yet we never thought that that leap year would
be such a black one for every Sumgait Armenian: those who lost someone and
those who didn't.
That second to last day of winter was ordinary for our family, although you
could already smell danger in the air. But we didn't think that the danger was
near and possible, so we didn't take any steps to save ourselves. At least, as
my parents say, at least we should have done something to save the children.
My parents themselves are not that old, 52 and 53 years. But then they thought
that they had already lived enough, and did everything they could to save us.
In our apartment the tragedy started on February 28, around five in the
afternoon. I call it a tragedy, and I repeat: it was a tragedy even though all
our family survived. When I recall how they broke down our door my skin
crawls; even now, among Armenians, among people who wish me only well, I feel
like it's all starting over again. I remember how that mob broke into our
apartment . . . My parents were standing in the hall. My father had an axe in
his hands and had immediately locked both of the doors. Our door was rarely
locked since friends and neighbors often dropped by. We're known as a
hospitable family, and we just never really thought about whether the people
who were coming to see us were Azerbaijanis, Jews, or Russians. We had friends
of many nationalities, even a Turkmen woman.
My parents were in the hall, my father with an axe. I remember him telling my
mother, "Run to the kitchen for a knife." But Mother was detached, pale, as
though she had decided to sell her life a bit dearer. To be honest I never
expected it of her, she's afraid of getting shot and afraid of the dark. A
girlfriend was at the house that day, a Russian girl, Lyuda, and Mamma said,
"No matter what happens, no matter what they do to us, you're not to come out
of the bedroom. We're going to tell them that we're alone in the apartment."
We went into the bedroom. There were four of us. Marina and the Russian girl
crawled under the bed, and we covered them up with a rug, boxes of dishes, and
Karina and I are standing there and looking at one another. The idea that
perhaps we were seeing each other for the last time flashed somewhere inside
me. I'm an emotional person and I express my emotions immediately. I wanted to
embrace her and kiss her, as though it were the last second. And maybe Karina
was thinking the same thing, but she's quite reserved. We didn't have time to
say anything to each other because we immediately heard Mamma raise a shout.
There was so much noise from the tramping of feet, from the shouting, and from
excited voices. I couldn't figure what was going on out there because the door
to the bedroom was only open a crack. But when Mamma shouted the second time
Karina ran out of the bedroom. I ran after her, I had wanted to hold her back,
but when she opened the door and ran out into the hall they saw us
immediately. The only thing I managed to do was close the door behind me, at
least so as to save Marina and her friend. The mob was shouting, all of their
eyes were shining, all red, like from insomnia. At first about 40 people burst
in, but later I was standing with my back to the door and couldn't see. They
came into the hall, into the kitchen, and dragged my father into the other
room. He didn't utter a word, he just raised the axe to hit them, but Mamma
snatched the axe from behind and said, "Tell them not to touch the children.
Tell them they can do as they want with us, but not to harm the children." She
said this to Father in Armenian.
There were Azerbaijanis from Armenia among the mob who broke in. They
understood Armenian perfectly. The local Azerbaijanis don't know Armenian,
they don't need to speak it. And one of them responded in Armenian: "You and
your children both . . . we're going to do the same thing to you and your
children that you Armenians did in Kafan. They killed our women, our girls,
our mothers, they cut their breasts off, and burned our houses . . . ," and
so on and so forth, "and we came to do the same thing to you." This whole time
some of them are destroying the house and the others are shouting at us. They
were mostly young people, under 30. At first there weren't any older people
among them. And all of their faces were unfamiliar. Sumgait is a small town,
all the same, and we know a lot of people by their faces, especially me, I'm
a teacher.
So they dragged my father into the other room. They twisted his arms and took
him in there, no they didn't take him in there, they dragged him in there,
because he was already unable to walk. They closed the door to that room all
but a crack. We couldn't see what was happening to Father, what they were
doing to him. Then a young man, about 26 years old, started to tear off
Mamma's sarafan, and Mamma shouted at him in Azerbaijani: "I'm old enough to
be your mother! What are you doing?!" He struck her. Now he's being held,
Mamma identified him. I hope he's convicted. Then they went after Karina,
who's been talking to them like a Komsomol leader, as though she were trying
to lead them down a different path, as they say, to influence their
consciousness. She told them that what they were doing was wrong, that they
mustn't do it. She said, "Come on, let's straighten this out, without
emotions. What do you want? Who are you? Why did you come here? What did we
ever do to you?" Someone tried to explain who they were and why they had come
into our home, but then the ones in the back--more of them kept coming and
coming--said, "What are you talking to, them for. You should kill them. We
came here to kill them."
They pushed Karina, struck her, and she fell down. They beat her, but she
didn't cry out. Even when they tore her clothes off, she kept repeating, "What
did we do to you? What did we do to you?" And even later, when she came to,
she said, "Mamma, what did we do to them? Why did they do that to us?"
That group was prepared, I know this because I noticed that some of them only
broke up furniture, and others only dealt with us. I remember that when they
were beating me, when they were tearing my clothes off, I felt neither pain
nor shame because my entire attention was riveted to Karina. All I could do
was watch how much they beat her and how painful it was for her, and what they
did to her. That's why I felt no pain. Later, when they carried Karina off,
they beat her savagely . . . It's really amazing that she not only lived, but
didn't lose her mind . She is very beautiful and they did everything they
could to destroy her beauty. Mostly they beat her face, with their fists,
kicking her, using anything they could find.
Mamma, Karina, and I were all in one room. And again I didn't feel any pain,
just didn't feel any, no matter how much they beat me, no matter what they
did. Then one of those creeps said that there wasn't enough room in the
apartment. They broke up the beds and the desk and moved everything into the
corners so there would be more room. Then someone suggested, "Let's take her
outside."
Those beasts were in Heaven. They did what they would do every day if they
weren't afraid of the authorities. Those were their true colors. At the time
I thought that in fact they would always behave that way if they weren't
afraid of what would happen to them.
When they carried Karina out and beat Mamma-her face was completely covered
with blood--that's when I started to feel the pain. I blacked out several
times from the pain, but each moment that I had my eyes open it was as though
I were recording it all on film. I think I'm a kind person by nature, but I'm
vengeful, especially if someone is mean to me, and I don't deserve it. I hold
a grudge a long time if someone intentionally causes me pain. And every time
I would come to and see one of those animals on top of me, I'd remember them,
and I'll remember them for the rest of my life, even though people tell me
"forget," you have to forget, you have to go on living.
At some point I remember that they stood me up and told me something, and
despite the fact that I hurt all over--I had been beaten terribly--I found
the strength in myself to interfere with their tortures. I realized that I had
to do something: resist them or just let them kill me to bring my suffering
to an end. I pushed one of them away, he was a real horse. I remember now that
he's being held, too. As though they were all waiting for it, they seized me
and took me out onto the balcony. I had long hair, and it was stuck all over
me. One of the veranda shutters to the balcony was open, and I realized that
they planned to throw me out the window, because they had already picked me up
with their hands, I was up in the air. As though for the last time I took a
really deep breath and closed my eyes, and somehow braced myself inside, I
suddenly became cold, as though my heart had sunk into my feet. And suddenly
I felt myself flying. I couldn't figure out if I was really flying or if I
just imagined it. When I came to I thought now I'm going to smash on the
ground. And when it didn't happen I opened my eyes and realized that I was
still lying on the floor. And since I didn't scream, didn't beg them at all,
they became all the more wild, like wolves. They started to trample me with
their feet. Shoes with heels on them, and iron horseshoes, like they had spe-
cially put them on. Then I lost consciousness.
I came to a couple of times and waited for death, summoned it, beseeched it.
Some people ask for good health, life, happiness, but at that moment I didn't
need any of those things. I was sure that none of us would survive, and I had