WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: hambidge@bms.com
Subject: Re: Some more about gun control...
Reply-To: hambidge@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb
Lines: 39
In article <C5MzyK.E7G@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu (John Lawrence Rutledge) writes:
>
>No not, unconditional, but "shall not be infringed".  Infringed
>is defined as:
>	To break or ignore the terms of or obligations (an oath,
>	an agreement, law, or the like); to disreguard; violate.
>	To go beyond the boundaries or limits; tresspass; encroach.
>This definition implies the following of some form of existing
>agreement.  Laws and agreements are made in advance.
The rights guaranteed by the Constitution were considered to be
pre-existing.  The only agreement was that they exist.  Therefore, no
law grants such rights. Laws can only guarantee, protect, or infringe
such rights.
Websters Third New International Dictionary of the English Language,
Unabridged  1986
infringe
1.a. to break down:DESTROY
b. DEFEAT, FRUSTRATE
c. CONFUTE, REFUTE
d. IMPAIR, WEAKEN
2. to commit a breach of : neglect to fulfill or obey : VIOLATE,
TRANSGRESS
vi : ENCROACH, TRESPASS
infringement
1. the act of infringing : BREACH, VIOLATION, NONFULFILLMENT
2. an encroachment or trespass on a right or priveledge : TRESPASS
~~~~~
Now, by what stretch of the imagination do you get your ideas about
infringement of rights?
Al
[standard disclaimer]
From: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard)
Subject: Re: Who's next?  Mormons and Jews?
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Reply-To: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: clesun.central.sun.com
>>The two situations are hardly analogous, unless you wish to make the
>>>dubious claim that the US legal system would provide equivalent treatment
>>>to BD children that the Romans did for those of conquered rebels.
>Actually, all the analogy calls for the the Branch Davidian _feeling_
>their treatment would be along these lines. After a military
>assualt (instead of a peacefull effort to serve a warrant) and
>weeks os siege, such a feeling might not be completely irrational.
Actually, if I were one of the survivors and wanted to institute a civil
rights violation lawsuit against the Treasury Dept., I would claim that
the BATF/FBI itself was to blame for any mass hysteria/insanity...
without due process, the siegers shone lights, laser beams, multi-colored
spotlights, all the while playing loudly amplified music consisting of
everything from Tibetan Chant to Heavy Metal, and coupled with the fear,
the poor nutrition, the rampant paranoia, I'd say it was very likely
those poor nuts were made even nuttier.  After all, isn't sleep deprivation,
sensory overload, etc., part of the "new age" method of torture?
From: PA146008@UTKVM1.UTK.EDU (David Veal)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
X-Newsreader: NNR/VM S_1.3.2
Lines: 43
In article <93109.13404334AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET>
<34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:
>I will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors,
>but here goes:
>
>Monday, 19 April, 1993 13:30 EDT
>
>                    MURDER  MOST  FOUL!!
>
[...]
>
>THIS IS MURDER!
>
>ATF MURDERERS!  BUTCHERS!!
>
>THIS IS GENOCIDAL MASS-SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN!
Well, chalk one up for driving away sympathies by looking like
a paranoid lunatic.
>
>I have predicted this from the start, but God, it sickens me to see
>it happen. I had hoped I was wrong. I had hoped that there was
>still some shred of the America I grew up with, and loved, left
>alive. I was wrong. The Nazis have won.
>
>I REPEAT, AS OF THIS TIME THERE ARE **NO  SURVIVORS**!
Last I heard there were nine.  Apparently as of this point they've
found no bodies, except those killed during the initial assault a couple
of months ago.
Be cute if Koresh hit the trail.
Maybe he was bodily assumed into heaven.  Wouldn't that just
make AG Reno's day?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal  University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "I still remember the way you laughed\
When you pushed me down the elevator shaft\ ... Sometimes I get to
thinking you don't love me anymore." - "Weird Al" Yankovic.
From: tmh@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Todd M. Helfter)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI revenge
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Lines: 172
>Does anyone have any idea about the size of Waco?  I'm just curious because
>if it were a small town that may have something to do with it.  Possibly not.
>It sure didn't take it very long to burn down though.  I was watching ABC and
>it only took like a little over 30 minutes to burn down.
Waco is a city of about 100,000 people.  The population temporarily
raised to about 102,000 people when all the feds, and state police officers
arrived.
I tell you what, I stayed in a hotel room about 4 miles from the BD
compound around 3 weeks ago.  I have never felt more paranoid in my whole
life.  There were at least 100 state police in the hotel.
>
>>The claim "we had the water turned off, so the fire engines had to bring
>>their own" doesn't hold up:  If they had cut off the water, they surely
>>could have turned it back on just as quickly.  They just didn't want to:
>>There were some scores to settle.  Message to anybody else is very clear:
>>"DON'T FUCK WITH US.  WE WILL DO YOU IN..."
>>
>Not that I am one to believe that everything that the government tells us is
>true but if that was the message they wanted to send why did they wait 51 days?
>I think the message would be better sent by charging in there right away - not
>waiting for 51 days and pounding them with sound, etc.
>
>>A bunch of dead BD members are not going to be so able to tell their
>>side of the story, so now all we have is the story according to the BATF
>>and FBI.  Also, Mr "care about the rights of people" Clinton, or his
>>administration approved this action (FBI said 'Washington had approved
>>it').  They FBI said the gas masks used by the BDs have a finite life,
>>and were close to running out.  WHY COULDN'T THEY HAVE JUST WAITED?
>
>Well, there are 9 people supposedly alive.  They can tell their story.  As far
>as Bill Clinton is concerned don't you think he has more pressing matters to
>attend to besides some small group of people in Texas?  How about Bosnia?  Now
>there's a problem......    Why couldn't they have waited?  They waited too long
>as it is.  Something should have been done earlier.
>
>>
>>They gov is trying to say it was a mass suicide.  In the past they had
>>expressed this was a real possibility, but now they decided it wasn't
>>a possibility so they could go on with the raid.  Apparantly what they
>>feel Korash was or was not capable of or going to do was driven by
>>what was most convenient at the time...
>>
>>Now this means that:
>>
>>1: The public and media will forget about all this - having become weary of
>>it.
>
>This has already happened for many people.
>
>>2: There will be no investigation (independent or otherwise) or a whitewash.
>
>Very much a possibility.
>
>>3: There will be no unsealing of the warrant and related documents.
>>4: What anybody will know about this incident will be the BATF version.
>
>With the way our government is I wouldn't doubt it.
>
>>5: The BATF has just been given Carte Blanche for further abuses, with
>>   the effective support and approval of the Administration.
>
>Clinton said on the news that he knew about what was happening but that it was
>all in the hands of the FBI.  That is if you choose to believe the media.
>
>>6: There WILL BE more abuses, with no concern of Administration censure.
>>7: The precident has been established that the Feds can kill in quantity
>>   to achieve their aims.  Especially if the target is excercising their
>>   rights under the Second Amendment, and the rest of the Bill of Rights,
>>   and is a government-declared un-nice fellow.
>
>If they had rocket launchers and such (as the press and gov claims) why
>shouldn't they have done something?  What possible use would a religious cult
>have for a rocket launcher?  Also, is child abuse covered by the Bill of
>Rights?
>
>> : LLs and CLAMs will be pleased.  Dung Tsow Ping(sp) will be pleased.
>>   Saddam Hussein(sp) will be pleased.  Idi Amin would be pleased.  Stalin
>>   would be pleased.  Even Hitler would be pleased.  Any self-respecting
>>   despot would nod and say "Well Done, Bill Clinton!!"
>>
>Well, then there are probably a lot of self-respecting despots in the US cause
>I'm sure they feel the same way.
>
>>God Bless America - Land of the Free!!!  (past tense).
>>
>>Well, maybe I AM overreacting.  But I see on the TV as I am typing where
>
>Maybe, maybe not.  There are a lot of questions that should be raised about
>this incident.  The problem is, who will do it and be heard?
>
>>govt spoksewoman (the new attorney general, known to be almost rabid
>>about private ownership of guns - wants to ban 'assault guns' and just
>>about everything else), is saying the FBI had "amazing restraint", then
>>falls back into the official goverenment line about how the BD were
>>guity of child abuse, and were into it in an on-going basis, and so on.
>>Note that according to the Liberal Elite, giving a child a spanking is
>>regarded as child abuse (seriously - if it gets known, the STATE can
>>take your child away from you if you spank your kid).  She also is saying
>
>Which state is that?  The federal government  or an individual state government
>?
>
>>CLINTON PERSONALLY APPROVED THIS OPERATION - she "told him it was
>>appropriate and so on, and he SAID OK, DO IT".  Somehow, I am not
>>surprised - the people MUST KNOW WHO IS BOSS - WHO IS IN CHARGE!!!
>>And it is obviouly no longer the people.
>>
>It seems to me that the people haven't been in charge for a long time.  If they
>really were I don't think the government would be doing as many things as it
>has in the past.
>
>>And I maintain the appropriate response, as far as this raid by BATF is
>>concerned, regarding child abuse is "so what?".  BATF are not our Child
>>Protective Services Police.  Yet.  After all the BD had been TRIED on
>>that charge before and found NOT GUILTY.  The gov't people have pretty
>>much gone silent on the terrible illegal guns BD supposedly has, and
>>stress the "continued child abuse" (apparantly to make it a seem as sort
>>of a 'rescue' operation, figuring everyone hates child abusers, and
>>anything is OK to use against them).  Occasional references to ammunition
>>possesed by the BDs and so on is irrelevant: it is NOT ILLEGAL to have
>>ammunition (yet).
>>
>True but is it illegal to have a rocket launcher?
>
>>Am I having a vain hope that an honest investigation will occur on this
>>thing?  Or will it simply be whitewashed under the rug, and Business
>>as Usual will continue to be the Order of the Day in the New Order?
>>Who will be given the official title of "Thought Police", I wonder...?
>>
>>And if Clinton and friends have their way, (highly likely at this point)
>>the New Order Government will also have all the guns...  So what if
>>"1984" is going to be ten years late...  I think we are going to discover
>>that we will be paying DEARLY for putting this fellow in office for decades
>>to come.  Even some die-hard supporters are having serious doubts about
>>their Savior.
>>
>Shit, if people dont get what they want right away there is an instant problem.
>Clinton has only been in office for a few months.  Give him a chance to get
>something done.  The guy had a lot of shit thrown in his lap in the beginning.
>Give him a chance to work on things a little.  As they say - Rome wasn't built
>in a day.
>
>>Yes, I am UPSET.  I see NO GOOD as far as civil/individual rights to
>>come of any of his proposals/decisions for the last month or so...
>>We have really been HAD.  Or Bill of Rights is now nothing but a quaint
>>curiosity.
>>
>I highly doubt that it is that bad yet.  How about the Rodney King trial?  The
>two people who were most responsible got the axe.  How bad the axe falls tho
>is yet to be seen.
>
>>Anybody for impeachment?
>>
>Nope.   I would prefer to give Bill a little more than four or five months to
>solve the nations problems.
>>--
>>pat@rwing.uucp      [Without prejudice UCC 1-207]     (Pat Myrto) Seattle, WA
>>         If all else fails, try:       ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat
>>WISDOM: "Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity,
>>         and I am not sure about the former."              - Albert Einstien
>
>Jason - u28037@uicvm.cc.uic.edu
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <1r0v4c$i1j@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
writes:
> In <1r0poqINNc4k@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com writes:
>
> > In article <C5rDAw.4s4@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> zed@Dartmouth.EDU (Ted
> > Schuerzinger) writes:
> > Well, it's now Tuesday morning.  Where are those two arsons, now?  I said
> > yesterday they would vanish, and there has been no further mention of them,
> > just the desired "impression" is left.
>
>   According to KIKK radio in Houston, all nine survivors are either in hos-
> pitals or in jails.  Inlucding the two who allegedly helped start the firess.
In the FBI briefing, no mention was made of having the fire starters in
custody.
>
> > Why could no one else even talk to them?  Why could Koresh's grandmother
not
> > talk to him or even send him a taped message?  Why the total isolation?
>
>   Well, it wasn't TOTAL, 100% isolation.  After the lawyer snuck in the first
> time, they (the FBI, etc) let him go back inside several times, including, I
> think, the day before the final assualt.
>
Why not his mother?  Why not the media?
> semper fi,
>
> Jammer Jim Miller
> Texas A&M University '89 and '91
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_
>  I don't speak for UH, which is too bad, because they could use the help.
> "Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing
System."
>  "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."
>       ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <1993Apr20.143255.12711@mcs.kent.edu> mhamilto@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu
(The Lawnmowerman) writes:
>Also
>    someone should have told David and his followers that if they can't the
heat
>    then they should stay out of the kitchen!! (pun intended)
>
This tops the cold-hearted bastard list!  Unbelievable!  Had this countries
morals sunk this low, that the death of innocent people is so callously viewed?
> Flame off
>
> " Aaah Daniaalson yah wanna fight,  fight me!!"
> --
>
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Matthew R. Hamilton   | mhamilto@mcs.kent.edu    |      A.K.A
|
> | CS/ Physics Major     | 1499h751@ksuvxb.kent.edu |   (The Lawnmowerman)
|
> | Kent State University	| 1299h751@ksuvxb.kent.edu |
|
>
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |
|
> |
|
> |      Look here for future advice.quotes.sayings.jibberish.philosohy
|
> |
|
>
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <1993Apr20.151131.8531@news.uit.no> paale@stud.cs.uit.no (Paal
Ellingsen) writes:
> In article <1r0qsrINNc61@clem.handheld.com>, Jim De Arras writes:
> |> Mr. Roby, you are a government sucking heartless bastard.  Humans died
> |> yesterday, humans who would not have died if the FBI had not taken the
actions
> |> they did.  That is the undeniable truth.
>
> ....the question is: for how long? Even if the FBI had done nothing, I guess
the
> BDs would have committed suicide, but maybe not until hunger and thirst gave
them
> the choice between sucide or surrender.
> The BDs was warned in beforehand about the FBI action. They HAD the chance to
> surrender and get a fair trial. No matter who started the fire, the BDs were
> responsible for 80+ peole dying. No one else.
>
This is, of course, your opinion.  I differ greatly.  There can be NO doubt the
FBI at least shares in the blame.
> --
> ============================================================================
> Paal Ellingsen       | Borgensvingen 67/102 | Tlf.: 083 50933
> paale@stud.cs.uit.no | 9100 Kvaloeysletta   | DATA = Dobbelt Arbeid Til Alle
> ============================================================================
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: croaker@highlite.uucp (Francis A. Ney)
Subject: Re: CNN for sale
Organization: Gotham Communications Research
Distribution: usa
Lines: 10
I will add my voice to the (hopefully) growing multitudes.
I hereby pledge $1000.00 towards the purchase of CNN, under the same conditions
as already described.  I will also post this idea on the other nets I can
access (RIME and Libernet).
We may have to organize this ourselves, so I am looking for help.
Frank Ney  N4ZHG  EMT-A  LPVa  NRA ILA GOA CCRTKBA 'M-O-U-S-E'
From: dduff@col.hp.com (Dave Duff)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Lines: 1
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com
NUT CASE PANICS!!!!JUMPS THE GUN ON THE NET BEFORE GETTING FACTS STRAIGHT!!!!
From: oldham@ces.cwru.edu (Daniel Oldham)
Subject: Blast them next time
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 21
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu
What happened in Waco is not the fault of the BATF. If they would of
had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the
compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened.
The BATF needs more people, better weapons and more armored
transports. When they meet hostile fire they should be able to use
more force instead of retreating to a stand off. If you are going to
do a job then do it right. The BATF is there to protect us and they
must have the proper equipment and people to do the job.
With the WoD and the increased crime in the streets the BATF is needed
more now then ever. If they blast away a few good fokes then that is
the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. Look
at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country
of ours.
With the arms build up in Waco they needed to hit that compound with
mega fire power. They could of gone in there blasting and killed a few
women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn
to death 51 days later.
From: mech24135045@msuvx2.memst.edu
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Distribution: world
Organization: Memphis State University
Lines: 49
In article <93109.13404334AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET>, <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:
> CNN is reporting as I write this that the ATF has ignited all
> the buildings of the Branch Dividian ranch near Waco, TX. The
> lies from ATF say "holes were made in the walls and 'non-lethal' tear
> gas pumped in". A few minutes after this started the whole thing went up.
> ALL buildings are aflame. NO ONE HAS ESCAPED. I think it obvious that
> the ATF used armored flame-thrower vehicles to pump in unlit
> napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it.
Well, actually, the Davidians (Koreshians?) started the fire themselves,
the last I heard ( around 15:00 EST). Eight people ran out into the feilds
surrounding the compound. All were captured and two admitted to setting the
fire. I don't buy your napalm theory at all (although it would have made a
great commercial for my .sig). Why the hell would they have a wood stove
burning on such a warm day?  Flame throwers use liquid petroleum, napalm
is more of a gel. Now to further dispute your theory, the diluted CS gas
was inserted around 06:00 if I understood correctly. The place didn't start
burning until around 10:00 or 11:00.
> THIS IS MURDER! ATF MURDERERS!  BUTCHERS!!
> THIS IS GENOCIDAL MASS-SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN!
> I have predicted this from the start, but God, it sickens me to see
> it happen. I had hoped I was wrong. I had hoped that there was
> still some shred of the America I grew up with, and loved, left
> alive. I was wrong. The Nazis have won.
Calm down kid. Vernon (Koresh's real name) said himself that he would not leave
that compound alive. The inhabitants thereof had accepted the fact that they
may very well have to kill themselves before it was all over.
> I REPEAT, AS OF THIS TIME THERE ARE **NO  SURVIVORS**!
There are at least eight survivors. A caller on Rush Limbaugh today suggested
that the rest may even be hiding in underground bunkers. That's not such a wild
idea considering their weaponry and resolve.
> God help us all.
> PLEASE CROSSPOST -- DON'T LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THE SLAUGHTER OF THE
> CHILDREN!
> W. K. Gorman - an American in tears.
Sheesh! Get over it. I haven't heard (read) such ranting since the Hindenberg
burned. This should have ended 50 days ago. I'm glad my tax dollars have
finally stopped working to pay a bunch of guys to stand around and give press
conferences. Now they can get back to more important things, like catching
cigarrette smugglers.
Troy
Napalm sticks to kids.
From: betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz)
Subject: Re: CLINTON JOINS LIST OF GENOCIDAL SOCIALIST LEADERS
Nntp-Posting-Host: gozer
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club
Lines: 13
In article <1r00ug$d60@btr.btr.com> michaelh@public.btr.com (Michael Hahn  michaelh@btr.com) writes:
>Pol Pot				100,000s Killed?
I've read estimates that Pol Pot killed somewhere in the neighborhood
of 2 million.
Drew
--
betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
*** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights   ***
*** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc,
semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: Blast them next time
Nntp-Posting-Host: eddie.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Distribution: usa
Lines: 32
In article <1r19l9$7dv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> oldham@ces.cwru.edu (Daniel Oldham) writes:
>What happened in Waco is not the fault of the BATF. If they would of
>had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the
>compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened.
>
>The BATF needs more people, better weapons and more armored
>transports. When they meet hostile fire they should be able to use
>more force instead of retreating to a stand off. If you are going to
>do a job then do it right. The BATF is there to protect us and they
>must have the proper equipment and people to do the job.
>
>With the WoD and the increased crime in the streets the BATF is needed
>more now then ever. If they blast away a few good fokes then that is
>the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. Look
>at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country
>of ours.
>
>With the arms build up in Waco they needed to hit that compound with
>mega fire power. They could of gone in there blasting and killed a few
>women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn
>to death 51 days later.
>
Well, it's said that people get the government they deserve.
Don't worry, you'll get yours.  You'll sleep much better when
everyone with thoughts not on the government 'approved' list
is rounded up and executed.
Julie
DISCLAIMER:  All opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
From: gt6511a@prism.gatech.EDU (COCHRANE,JAMES SHAPLEIGH)
Subject: Re: guns in backcountry? no thanks
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Lines: 48
In article <121415@netnews.upenn.edu> egedi@ahwenasa.cis.upenn.edu (Dania M. Egedi) writes:
:In article <1993Apr16.222604.18331@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
:|> In article <1993Apr16.174436.22897@midway.uchicago.edu> pkgeragh@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Kevin Geraghty) writes:
:|> >wrong about the  whole guns-for-protection mindset, it ignores the
:|>
:|> Why?  If you're not a threat, you're not affected at all.
:|>
:
:Aha.  That's the part that makes me nervous too.  Who gets to decide if
:I am a threat?  Based on appearance?  Would someone feel more threatened
:
Actions determine whether someone presents a threat... and I don't carry a gun
so much for people, cause I tend to fade if there are any about, but due to
several encounters with formerly domestic dogs...  these critters ain't scared
of folks, and can get aggressive.
:on staying at and saw someone sitting there cleaning his gun.  Softly I backed
:away, and hiked another 5 miles to get *out of there*.  I'll freely admit it here:
:I'm not afraid of guns; I'm afraid of people that bring them into the backcountry.
:
I'd count that as a fear of guns... somebody having the sense to keep their
weapons maintained isn't as likely to present a threat.  The Army taught me to
clean any weapons DAILY, since they usually need it, regardless of whether
they've been used... You'd be amazed how sweaty a holster can get, or how much
trail dust will get in it.  And I guess you'd be scared of me and my former
Explorer Post... seems the advisors were National Guard Special Forces grunts,
and considered it heresy to be out in the woods without a weapon... course,
usually you wouldn't notice 'em... :)  They tended to avoid public scrutiny...
:Of course, that may be the way to solve the solitude problem.  Just carry a gun
:and display it prominently, and one probably won't see most of the other hikers
:out there, who will be hiding in the woods.  1/2 :-)
:
: - Dania
My 9mm goes in a hip holster, mixed in with magazine pouches (hold lotsa stuff
in them), canteens, knives, compasses, and such...  Not so easy to notice, in
the off chance I decide to be visible... I prefer not to be, since walking
quietly away from active areas increases the number of non-human type critters
I see...
James
--
********************************************************************************
James S. Cochrane        *  When in danger, or in doubt, run in * This space
gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu *  circles, scream and shout.          * for rent
********************************************************************************
From: William_Mosco@vos.stratus.com
Subject: RE: Blast them next time
Organization: Stratus Computer, Marlboro Ma.
Lines: 29
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: hudm4-enet.mfg.stratus.com
>        #DELETED BECAUSE IT SOUNDS TWISTED"
>With the WoD and the increased crime in the streets the BATF is needed
>more now then ever. If they blast away a few good fokes then that is
>the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. Look
>at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country
>of ours.
##flame thrower on##
Well I don't want my tax dollars going to that kind of philosophy.
maybe if the good folks you are talking about are people like you
than I might be inclined to accept it. What does the batf do anyway?
Why don't we have a bureau for militant, paranoid, freedom killers
like yourself. People like you are more dangerous than alcohol,
tobacco and firearms.
>With the arms build up in Waco they needed to hit that compound with
>mega fire power. They could of gone in there blasting and killed a few
>women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn
>to death 51 days later.
Maybe we should just have nuked the whole city, I mean, what's a
100,000 good souls anyway?
Get real, you sound like a racist.  I guess life isn't so precious
to you, do you realize that there were  24 children KILLED!!!
They will never get to fall in love, they won't see another sunrise,
no prom, no first date, no football, baseball no NOTHING.  Why doesn't
some people think first before they let everyone know how narrow they
are.
"Flame thrower off"
From: betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Nntp-Posting-Host: gozer
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club
Lines: 31
In article <C5rynw.Iz8@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>And I suppose the FBI also prevented them from coming out with their
>hands up while national tv cameras watch.
>
Watch from where?  Two miles away?  Far enough away that whatever
really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of
a humiliated agency that said (quote!) "Enough is enough."
>scenario that is simplest and most plausible.  I do not generally
>believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely
>scenarios.
The FBI sent letters to Martin Luther King's wife insinuating
that MLK was having an affair!  Again, please tell us exactly
how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government.
>The BATF is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair.
>But to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is
>ludicrous.
I suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to
risk small arms fire to get some good footage.  These people
were told to get the hell out of camera range.  Why?
Drew
--
betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
*** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights   ***
*** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc,
semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium
From: mfrhein@wpi.WPI.EDU (Michael Frederick Rhein)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 74
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu
In article <93109.13404334AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:
>I will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors,
>but here goes:
>
>Monday, 19 April, 1993 13:30 EDT
>
>                    MURDER  MOST  FOUL!!
>
>CNN is reporting as I write this that the ATF has ignited all
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I watched the CNN report and I never heard them report that the ATF started the
fire.  They did speculate that the type of CS gas might have _accidentaly_
started the fire.
>the buildings of the Branch Dividian ranch near Waco, TX. The
>lies from ATF say "holes were made in the walls and 'non-lethal' tear
>gas pumped in". A few minutes after this started the whole thing went up.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
From my understanding of the CNN report it was 6 HOURS after they started.
>ALL buildings are aflame. NO ONE HAS ESCAPED. I think it obvious that
>the ATF used armored flame-thrower vehicles to pump in unlit
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The track vehicle that I saw in the vicinity of the building where fire was
first noticed looked more like an armored recovery vehicle (the type used to
tow tanks of battle fields) and not an armored flame-thrower vehicle.
>napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day
in Texas.  It seems to me that it would be very poor planing to hope for a wood
stove to ignite the "napalm" when the stove would probably not be in use.  And
I doubt that it would have taken 6 hours to ignite it.
>
>THIS IS MURDER!
>
>ATF MURDERERS!  BUTCHERS!!
>
>THIS IS GENOCIDAL MASS-SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN!
>
>I have predicted this from the start, but God, it sickens me to see
>it happen. I had hoped I was wrong. I had hoped that there was
>still some shred of the America I grew up with, and loved, left
>alive. I was wrong. The Nazis have won.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Right Clinton is in office.  (Sorry I couldn't resist, please no flames :))
>
>I REPEAT, AS OF THIS TIME THERE ARE **NO  SURVIVORS**!
>
>God help us all.
>
>
>PLEASE CROSSPOST -- DON'T LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THE SLAUGHTER OF THE CHILDREN!
>
>
>W. K. Gorman - an American in tears.
In short Mr. Gorman (I am assuming Mr. as a title because I don't think a woman
would be stupid enough to make this post) I don't know what episode of CNN you
were watching but it obviously was not the same one that I was watching or your
tears seamed to have blured your hearing along with your eye sight.
Please excuse any mispelled words as I am a product of the Arkansas education
system which Slick Willie of the "Double Bubba Ticket" has so greately improved
during his tenour as Governer of my great state (taking it from 49th in the
nation in 1980 and allowing it to drop to 51st, how I don't know, and bringing
it to 44st and back to either 48th or 49th in 1990--sorry I can't rember the
source of these numbers but they can be found).
Michael F. Rhein
From: gt6511a@prism.gatech.EDU (COCHRANE,JAMES SHAPLEIGH)
Subject: Re: So much for "infinite patience"
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Lines: 32
In article <1993Apr19.225700.3976@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> j979@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (FULLER  M) writes:
:
:So much for "infinite patience."
:
;I find it hard to swallow that prolonged exposure to "massive" amounts of
:
:And they said that the bomb dropped on MOVE wouldn't start a fire, either.
:
:The real kicker, though, is the stated justification for the government's
:sudden loss of patience: They wouldn't be able to "rotate their teams"
:
:This outcome could be foreseen a mile (or two) away, but Reno didn't even
:
:Malcolm Fuller, Surveying Engineering, University of New Brunswick
The really good part:  "At this point we're not negotiating," FBI spokesman
Bob Ricks said at a news briefing about a half hour before the fire began.
"We're saying,'Come out.Come out with your hands up. This matter is over.'"
Criminal... so much for Billary saying we won't force the issue... anybody
have the WH information number?  Figure ol' Bill could use a lesson from the
ROTC he scorned: "You are responsible for all that your unit/troops do or fail
to do."  Want to ask him how he enjoys being responsible for violating the
Constitutional rights of a group, resulting in the deaths of over a hundred of them, plus four Federal agents...
James
--
********************************************************************************
James S. Cochrane        *  When in danger, or in doubt, run in * This space
gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu *  circles, scream and shout.          * for rent
********************************************************************************
From: v111qheg@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (P.VASILION)
Subject: Re: Who's next?  Mormons and Jews?
Organization: University at Buffalo
Lines: 24
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Nntp-Posting-Host: ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu
In article <1993Apr20.003522.22480@midway.uchicago.edu>, thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes...
>In article <1qvfik$6rf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cj195@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John W. Redelfs) writes:
>>Now that Big Brother has rubbed out one minority religion in Waco, who is
>>next?  The Mormons or Jews?
>
>The Koreshians rubbed themselves out.  Neither Mormons nor Jews have a
>propensity for dousing themselves with kerosene, so I'm not particularly
>concerned.  (Or shall we blame Jim Jones on the government also?)
>
>Be thankful that the BATF standoff at least got some of the kids out before
>the cult committed mass suicide.
>
Dont you believe that the Branch Davidians committed suicide for one
minute. I would not put it past the FBI to lob in some incendiary grenades
while they feed your their story. Don't ever ever trust what your wonderful
government tells you. Janet Reno and the FBI have the murder of a hundred
people on their hands. Hope they can sleep at night....
P.Vasilion, kb2nmv
SUNY @ BUFFALO
<<STD.DISCLAIMERS>>
"All you cult haters happy now? Just hope that your not next."
From: hambidge@bms.com
Subject: Re: Blast them next time
Reply-To: hambidge@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb
Distribution: usa
Lines: 31
In article <1r19l9$7dv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, oldham@ces.cwru.edu (Daniel Oldham) writes:
>What happened in Waco is not the fault of the BATF. If they would of
>had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the
>compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened.
>
>The BATF needs more people, better weapons and more armored
>transports. When they meet hostile fire they should be able to use
>more force instead of retreating to a stand off. If you are going to
>do a job then do it right. The BATF is there to protect us and they
>must have the proper equipment and people to do the job.
>
>With the WoD and the increased crime in the streets the BATF is needed
>more now then ever. If they blast away a few good fokes then that is
>the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. Look
>at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country
>of ours.
>
>With the arms build up in Waco they needed to hit that compound with
>mega fire power. They could of gone in there blasting and killed a few
>women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn
>to death 51 days later.
>
Did you forget to put in a sarcasm flag?
Al
[standard disclaimer]
From: donb@netcom.com (Don Baldwin)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI revenge
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Lines: 31
In article <C5sE5E.Coy@boi.hp.com> dianem@boi.hp.com (Diane Mathews) writes:
>Ahem.  See the War on Drugs, as sponsored by the Bush and Reagan
>administrations.  The precedent had well been set for federal agencies to
>step on more than a few of what people consider "rights."  I won't make
>excuses for anyone, but most of the damage had been done before Clinton
>even entered the race in '92.
Not to mention last year's Weaver affair.
Anyway, here's how I see the Waco affair; I'd be interested in other peoples'
interpretations...
1. Koresh and his people were basically minding their own business.
2. Some weapons violations may have been committed and I wouldn't have
disapproved of prosecuting him for those violations.  However, I think
the BATF was criminal for starting negotiations with a military style
assault and for firing into a house where there were children and other
noncombatants.
3. I don't see they couldn't just leave a token guard on the place and wait
the BDs out; I don't approve of the tear gas approach and, if it caused
the fire to be started, I think the FBI agent responsible should spend
10-20 years in jail.
4. However, if Koresh's response to the tear gas was to kill everyone there,
I hold him largely responsible for their deaths.
don
From: shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI revenge
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory
Lines: 29
Hmmm... I hadn't heard about rockets. ATF must be escalating their
tall tails... anyway
>If they had rocket launchers and such (as the press and gov claims) why
>shouldn't they have done something?
Why should they have "done something"? The Davidians had not attacked
or even threatened anyone.
>What possible use would a religious cult have for a rocket launcher?
It is not yours nor the governments right to tell others what they have
a legitimate right to own.
>Also, is child abuse covered by the Bill of Rights?
Is child abuse now within the jurisdiction of the department of the
treasury? Attacking citizens without due process on the strength of
unsubstantiated rumors about a violation of a law which does not
fall under your jurisdiction is a pretty serious breech of rights.
>Shit, if people dont get what they want right away there is an instant >problem.
>Clinton has only been in office for a few months.  Give him a chance to get
>something done.  The guy had a lot of shit thrown in his lap in the beginning.
>Give him a chance to work on things a little.  As they say - Rome wasn't built
>in a day.
If he gets any more done we will really be in trouble!
mike
From: gt6511a@prism.gatech.EDU (COCHRANE,JAMES SHAPLEIGH)
Subject: Re: Who's next?  Mormons and Jews?
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Lines: 20
Hmm... am I the only person that remembers Masada?  This isn't the first time
a group has committed suicide to avoid persecution/capture... and you seem to
miss the point that the raid SHOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!
I find the FBI actions too damn reminiscent of the Warsaw Ghetto... fitting
that Al Gore was in Poland for events marking the 50th anniversery of that...
Remove any references to dates and you have two raids by government troops
wearing black uniforms, carrying automatic weapons, backed by armored vehicles,
against religious minorities they claim were practicing sexually deviant
behavior and hoarding weapons... Too damn similar...
James
ps: I am not advocating the BD's, I just find the whole situation too damn
troubling.
--
********************************************************************************
James S. Cochrane        *  When in danger, or in doubt, run in * This space
gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu *  circles, scream and shout.          * for rent
********************************************************************************
From: gs26@prism.gatech.EDU (Glenn R. Stone)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI revenge
Keywords: BATF FBI Korash "child abuse"  guns murder CONTROL
Reply-To: glenns@eas.gatech.edu
Organization: The Group W Bench
Lines: 17
In <2077@rwing.UUCP> pat@rwing.UUCP (Pat Myrto) writes:
>Anybody for impeachment?
Yeah, me.  Both the Slickmeister and Hillary's buddy Janet say
they're responsible... I want both their resignations on my desk
yesterday.  I also want both thier butts up on federal civil rights
violations.... something which carries life in prison as a penalty.
Oh, and I'll contribute $20 to Arlen Specter's presidential campaign
for having the 'nads to launch the Senate investigation.
-- Glenn R. Stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu)       ==================
America in Distress                             ==================
(flag upside down = SOS)                        *******===========
Save your Republic before                       *******===========
it no longer exists.                            *******===========
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: With Friends Like These -- L. Neil Smith
Organization: UDel: School of Life & Health Sciences
Lines: 28
In article <C5D05G.6xw@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> papresco@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
}In article <1993Apr10.155819.18237@sco.com> allanh@sco.COM (Allan J. Heim) writes:
}>Look, if you can figure out a reliable means of keeping guns away from
}>bad people, while not interfering with good people, I think we'd all be
}>for it.  The problem is, the methods we're using now don't do the trick.
}
}Don't manufacture them.  Don't sell them.  Don't import them.
Japan did this.  It required near-total isolation from the rest of the world
for 2 centuries.
}Some guns will get through, but far fewer, and far less people will
}die because of them.  Hunting weapons could be allowed, of course, as
}long as they are big, and bulky, and require reloading after a few
}shots (how many times can you shoot at the same animal, anyways One
}assumes they are moving!)
Hunting weapons are great for extortionist sharpshooters.  "Send me money or
else I'll pick you off from 2 miles away."
Tim Starr - Renaissance Now!
Assistant Editor: Freedom Network News, the newsletter of ISIL,
The International Society for Individual Liberty,
1800 Market St., San Francisco, CA 94102
(415) 864-0952; FAX: (415) 864-7506; 71034.2711@compuserve.com
Think Universally, Act Selfishly - starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Ban All Firearms !
Organization: UDel: School of Life & Health Sciences
Lines: 29
In article <16BAECE99.PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu> PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal) writes:
}In article <C5D4Hv.8Dp@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
}papresco@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
}
}>In article <92468@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6511a@prism.gatech.EDU (COCHRANE,JAMES SHPLEIGH) writes:
}>>
}>2.If Guns were banned, and a bunch showed up in south florida, it
}>would be 100x easier to trace and notice then a small ripple in the
}>huge wave of the American gun-craze.
}                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
}
}       Do they teach courses in rude in Canada?
They don't have too.  Canadian culture is handed down largely from the United
Empire Loyalists who fled from the American Revolution.  Canuckleheads tend
to have a "cratophilic," or government-loving attitude towards authority.
Paul Prescod is right in line with this elitist bigotry and prejudice that
all my Canadian friends hate in their fellow citizens.  His sort of snobbish
Canuck have an irrational horror of American democratic "armed mobs."
Tim Starr - Renaissance Now!
Assistant Editor: Freedom Network News, the newsletter of ISIL,
The International Society for Individual Liberty,
1800 Market St., San Francisco, CA 94102
(415) 864-0952; FAX: (415) 864-7506; 71034.2711@compuserve.com
Think Universally, Act Selfishly - starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Ban All Firearms !
Organization: UDel: School of Life & Health Sciences
Lines: 19
In article <C5D42C.88K@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> papresco@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
}
}>  Drugs are banned, please tell me when this supply will dry up?
}
}Drugs are easier to manufacture, easier to smuggle, easier to hide.
}
}No comparison.
You, sir, are an ignorant fool who knows nothing about either the drug
business or the gun business.
Tim Starr - Renaissance Now!
Assistant Editor: Freedom Network News, the newsletter of ISIL,
The International Society for Individual Liberty,
1800 Market St., San Francisco, CA 94102
(415) 864-0952; FAX: (415) 864-7506; 71034.2711@compuserve.com
Think Universally, Act Selfishly - starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu
From: cathy@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Cathy Smith)
Subject: WEIRD SCIENCE -- by L. Neil Smith
Distribution: usa
Nntp-Posting-Host: blanca.lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523
Lines: 116
Posted by Cathy Smith for L. Neil Smith
WEIRD SCIENCE
Everyone knows how to tell when a politician is lying:  his lips
move.  What may not be equally obvious is that there are
politicians and then there are politicians -- and that the phrase
"political science" is subject to more than one interpretation.
Years ago, we heard how "scientists" were worried that a new Ice
Age might be coming, and later on that "nuclear winter" -- smoke
and dust thrown into the atmosphere by full-scale international
unpleasantness -- was a possibility.  Something like that may even
have killed the dinosaurs.
What we didn't hear was that no actual data supported any of this,
that real-world events (the burning of Kuwaiti oil fields) tended
to discredit it, that mostly it was propaganda meant to weaken
values that made America the most successful culture in history,
and that the dinosaurs probably died of something like the Plague
when continents drifted together, exposing them to new germs.
We miss a lot like this, unless we listen closely.  Prince William
Sound, site of the famous oil spill, and Mount St. Helen's weren't
supposed to recover from their respective disasters for at least
100 years.  That turned out not to be true, although you'd never
know it from watching network nightly news or CNN.  It doesn't fit
their agenda to inform us that the earth is vast and resilient, and
that nature is rougher on herself than we could ever be.
But for once, the media aren't entirely to blame.  As ignorant of
science as they are of everything, they trust "scientists" to
unscrew the inscrutable.  The trouble is that today's "scientists"
have agendas of their own.
Nobody in government, that wellspring of scientific wherewithal, is
going to offer grants to an investigator who states truthfully that
there is no respectable evidence for "global warming".  The money
and power for bureaucrats and politicians lie in mass transit, and
they hate the automobile -- blamed as a major cause of the mythical
crisis -- as a source of privacy and freedom they find intolerable.
The same appears true of "acid rain", a deliberate hoax cooked up
by the Environmental Protection Agency (which hates private
industrial capitalism almost as much as it does your car) and
foisted on real scientists through trickery which has depended on
specialists in different fields not talking to each other much.
The list goes on, always with a common, disreputable thread.
"Ozone depletion", for which evidence is even more suspect and
contradictory than for acid rain or global warming, is no more than
a last, desperate attempt to indict private capitalism in an era
when state central planning and the command economy have failed and
can only find this final, withered leg to teeter on.
Decades of anti-nuclear alarmism, resting on foundations of myth
and panic-mongering, have failed to erase the fact that nuclear
power is the safest, cleanest, most efficient source of energy
known to mankind -- and more to the point, that the greater amount
of energy there is available to any individual in society, the
freer that individual -- and his society -- become.
Honest studies on the effects of individual gun ownership and
self-defense on crime -- conducted by investigators who began as
ideological opponents to those concepts, but which show massive
reductions in the latter to be the result of the former -- have
been suppressed, most recently by the California state government.
And what the media didn't say about recent EPA "discoveries" on the
effect of "secondhand smoking" is that, although some harm to non-
smokers may have been detected, it was less (by an order or two of
magnitude) than that associated with frying bacon a couple times a
week or keeping a pet bird.  It's enough to make you wonder whether
there was ever anything to the claim that smoking causes cancer.
That, of course, is the real threat represented by politically
correct science.  The world is a dangerous place.  It would be nice
to know the hazards.  I've never believed smoking to be a healthy
practice, but, given a lack of credibility on the part of today's
science, how am I to decide what to do about it?  Nicotine is
highly addictive, to that much I can attest from experience.  Yet
the stress of quitting may be riskier than to continue.  There
isn't any way to tell, thanks to the corrupting influence of
government money on the scientific establishment.
Two centuries ago, the Founding Fathers spared us certain agonies
to which every other nation in the world has been subject at one
time or another, by creating a legal barrier between politics and
religion.  Each time some short-sighted individual or group has
tried to lower the barrier (most recently over the issue of
abortion), blood -- real human blood, hot and smoking in the street
-- has wound up being shed.
Real human blood is being shed over scientific issues, as people's
lives are ruined through the loss, to agencies like the EPA, of
livelihood, or property it may have taken a lifetime to accumulate,
to diseases caused by toxins associated with burning fossil fuels
for electrical power, or thanks to bans on things like cyclamates,
when they die from the effects of obesity.
What we need now, if we hope to survive as a civilization for two
more centuries, is another barrier, a Constitutional separation of
state and science -- including medicine.  Knowledge is valuable;
real science won't languish for lack of funding.  The money will
simply come from contributors unwilling to pay for lies, and
everyone will benefit.
L. Neil Smith
Author:  THE PROBABILITY BROACH, THE CRYSTAL EMPIRE, HENRY MARTYN,
and (forthcoming) PALLAS
LEVER ACTION BBS (303) 493-6674, FIDOnet: 1:306/31.4
Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus
NRA Life Member
My opinions are, of course, my own.
From: brians@atlastele.com (Brian Sheets)
Subject: Re: Constitutionality of 18 U.S.C 922(o)
Organization: Atlas Telecom Inc.
Distribution: usa
Lines: 40
In article <1qksp9$l39@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.142322.1318@atlastele.com>, brians@atlastele.com (Brian Sheets) writes:
>> and has no rights under the federal constitution. So, what I
>> don't understand is how a statute like 922 can be enforced on
>> an individual. So someone tell me how my government can tell
>> me what I can or cannot possess. Just passing a law
>                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> does not make it LAW.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Sorry, but I really can't figure out what you're trying to say, above.
I guess what I am really asking, like I did above, how does my government
who is my servent, tell me the soveriegn what I can or cannot possess?
It would seem to me that the act of possessing a machine gun is no less
"criminal", by definition, than the act of possessing a television set. I also would seem
to me that it would be better to pass laws that say, that if I harm
or kill someone with the machine gun or the television set that there
would be specific penalties for doing such.
>
>> Everyone knows that laws are constitional
>> until it goes to court.
Sorry, I was close.
>
>Not exactly:
>"No on is bound to obey an uncontitutional law, and no courts are
> bound to enforce it."
> 16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177
>      late 2d, Sec 256
--
Brian Sheets		    _   /|  	"TRUCK?! What truck?"
Support Engineer  	    \`o_O'
Atlas Telecom Inc. 	      ( ) 	   -Raiders of the Lost Ark
brians@atlastele.com           U
From: yoony@aix.rpi.edu (Young-Hoon Yoon)
Subject: Re: Boston Gun Buy Back
Nntp-Posting-Host: aix.rpi.edu
Lines: 28
>>Ron Miller wrote:
>>When you ask the question of the "authorities" or sponsors of buyback
>>programs whether they will check for stolen weapons and they answer
>>"no, it's total amnesty".
> (good point about registration schemes being used only for harassment deleted)
> I would also like to point out that this is receiving stolen property and is
>no different than a pawn shop owner doing the same thing.
>
>
>	Myron Petro
>	NRA, USPSA
>        DVC y'all
>	**************************************************************************
>	 The opinions included in this post are my sole responsibility.
>	 And are protected by the First Amendment and guarnteed by the
>	 Second Amendment.
If amnesty was their concern, they should pay in cash rather than moneyorder
and they should check to see if the gun turned in was stolen or not.
This way if a gun turns out to be stolen, then even if they wanted to
prosecute, they don't know who to prosecute.
Since the only concern of these(HCI and the like) people seems to be the total
eradication of guns( legal or illegal ), why should they bother to check for
stolen property.  If they knew who the rightful owner is, then they would have
to return the gun and hence contrary to their intent to ban all guns.
From: donb@netcom.com (Don Baldwin)
Subject: Re: Ax the ATF
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Lines: 14
In article <1r1173INNajc@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM>
dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM writes:
>Even if it were a capital offense, the warrant was not even an arrest warrant,
>but a search warrant.  In other words, there was no evidence of illegal
>arms, just enough of a suggestion to get a judge to sign a license to
>search for illegal evidence.
It's hard to know what/who to believe.  However, the letter I received from
the BATF, in response to one I sent to Bentsen, said that there was a search
warrant AND an arrest warrant.
don
From: whughes@lonestar.utsa.edu (William W. Hughes)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI revenge
Keywords: BATF FBI Korash "child abuse"  guns murder CONTROL
Nntp-Posting-Host: lonestar.utsa.edu
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Lines: 20
In article <2077@rwing.UUCP> pat@rwing.UUCP (Pat Myrto) writes:
>I am sick, dismayed, discouraged.  And ASHAMED of our Administration.
>
>Anybody for impeachment?
I have already called senators, legislators and the Governor demanding
that the warrants be unsealed, and that all involved in this atrocity
(including the President, Attorney General and Governor) be suspended
pending an investigation.
I seriously doubt, however, that anything will ever be done.
Welcome to Amerika!
--
REMEMBER WACO!
Who will the government decide to murder next? Maybe you?
[Opinions are mine; I don't care if you blame the University or the State.]
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <1qvjh9INNh4l@hp-col.col.hp.com> dduff@col.hp.com (Dave Duff)
writes:
> NUT CASE PANICS!!!!JUMPS THE GUN ON THE NET BEFORE GETTING FACTS STRAIGHT!!!!
I really don't understand all this!  I watched on satellite network feeds as
perhaps 90 people died before my eyes, while the two Huey's fanned the flames,
and the FBI stopped the firetrucks at the gate.
Something was VERY wrong with that scene.
Perhaps if I'd watched RAMBO movies, I might've been dulled to the pain of
fellow humans dying.
Thank GOD I still feel.  I'm very sorry for you who don't.  For you who think
they got what they deserved.  Can you really believe that?  Even if Koresh was
the sadistic mad man they said he was, did the others deserve his fate?   If,
in fact, he was mad, wasn't that even more reason to believe he duped his
followers, and therefore they were innocent, brainwashed, victims?  Is there
any scenaro that justifies all that death?
And if not, it is clear that the deaths would not have occured if the BATF has
not FUCKED UP initially, and now the FBI got impaitent and pushed Korech over
the edge.
And that's if you buy the latest version of the "story" hook, line, and sinker.
I have believed all along that they could not let them live, the embarrassment
to the BATF and the FBI would've been too severe.
Remember, this was a suspicion of tax-evasion warrant.  There were no
witnesses, except the FBI.  All information filtered through the FBI.  All they
had to do was allow one remote controlled pool camera be installed near the
building, and the press could've done their job, and would've been able to back
the FBI's story with close up video, while incurring no risk to the press.
Unless they did not want the public to see something.  The complete lack of any
other source of information other than the FBI really causes me concern.
Sick to my stomach, and getting sicker from all the Government apologists
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: zed@Dartmouth.EDU (Ted Schuerzinger)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0b16@dartmouth.edu
Organization: WDCR/WFRD, Hanover, NH
Lines: 49
In article <93109.13404334AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET>
<34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:
> I will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors,
> but here goes:
>
> Monday, 19 April, 1993 13:30 EDT
>
>                     MURDER  MOST  FOUL!!
>
> CNN is reporting as I write this that the ATF has ignited all
> the buildings of the Branch Dividian ranch near Waco, TX. The
> lies from ATF say "holes were made in the walls and 'non-lethal' tear
> gas pumped in". A few minutes after this started the whole thing went up.
> ALL buildings are aflame. NO ONE HAS ESCAPED. I think it obvious that
> the ATF used armored flame-thrower vehicles to pump in unlit
> napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it.
>
> THIS IS MURDER!
>
> ATF MURDERERS!  BUTCHERS!!
>
> THIS IS GENOCIDAL MASS-SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN!
>
> I have predicted this from the start, but God, it sickens me to see
> it happen. I had hoped I was wrong. I had hoped that there was
> still some shred of the America I grew up with, and loved, left
> alive. I was wrong. The Nazis have won.
>
> I REPEAT, AS OF THIS TIME THERE ARE **NO  SURVIVORS**!
>
> God help us all.
>
>
> PLEASE CROSSPOST -- DON'T LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THE SLAUGHTER OF THE CHILDREN!
>
>
> W. K. Gorman - an American in tears.
The latest news I saw was that two of the eight known survivors (not NO
SURVIVORS!!! as you so rudely put in all caps) said they started the
fire.
I won't go on with the things the wacko of Waco did.
--Ted Schuerzinger
zed@Dartmouth.EDU
This is not the secret message.
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Subject: Re: Blast them next time
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 16
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]
Daniel Oldham (oldham@ces.cwru.edu) wrote:
> The BATF needs more people, better weapons and more armored
> transports. ...
> With the arms build up in Waco they needed to hit that compound with
> mega fire power. They could of gone in there blasting and killed a few
> women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn
> to death 51 days later.
Is this a joke?  The legal way to serve a search warrant is to knock on
the door.  Tossing in a grenade to serve a search warrant violates the
US Constitution and is hence, illegal.  The BD complied with legal
search warrants in the past.  I do not understand why the BATF used an
illegal means to serve their search warrant last February.
- Steve Kao
From: gs26@prism.gatech.EDU (Glenn R. Stone)
Subject: Re: my reply to NY Times editorial "Dear Member of the NRA"
Reply-To: glenns@eas.gatech.edu
Organization: The Group W Bench
Lines: 32
In <1993Apr20.004532.23086@husc3.harvard.edu> kim39@scws8.harvard.edu (John Kim) writes:
>as a legal gun owner, I must disagree.  Even when I don't see eye-
>to-eye with the N.R.A. on a particular issue, they are the only
>national group which has effectively fought for my rights to target
>shoot, hunt, and protect myself from dangerous criminals.
One more time.
It ain't about duck hunting.
It ain't about lone perps on lonely streets.
It's about DEFENDING OUR RIGHTS from the *GOVERNMENT*, which
has seen fit to ignore history and attempt once again to take
them from us.  They WILL SUCCEED if we don't do something NOW.
That's why I think the NRA is a bunch of WEENIES, because they
have FORGOTTEN that fundamental fact.
Pardon all my shouting, but there seem to be a whole helluva lot
of people on Condition White, fat, dumb, and happy, sucking that
glass teat for all they're worth.... Wake up and smell the cordite,
gang, they're shooting at us, and it's high time we shot back,
at least with our keyboards.....
my two bits'
Glenn R. Stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu)
fly your flags at half staff and upside down,
to mourn and protest the death of the BoR.
From: VEAL@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Subject: Re: AMA Support Brady Bill
Lines: 27
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
In article <1r044aINNh9f@tamsun.tamu.edu> dlb5404@tamuts.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf) writes:
>The following was sent to me by a friend of mine (a med student).  It
>originally appeared in a medical discussion list.
>
>--GUN CONTROL - The AMA expressed support for S. 414 and H.R. 1025 (the "Brady
>--Handgun Violence Prevention Act").  Citing its strong support for the "Brady
>--Bill" in past Congresses, the AMA termed as "particularly alarming" violence
>--associated with, and stemming from, the widespread and easy availability and
>--use of firearms.  The AMA proceeded to comment:  "While we recognize that a
>--waiting period of 5 business days before a handgun purchase will not address
>--all of the difficult problems that have made violence so prevalent in our
>--society, we believe that it is a beginning and will save lives.  Physicians
>--are first-hand witnesses to the horrendous cost in human life being exacted
>--by firearm violence. A reasonable waiting period before the purchase of a
>--handgun is a protection that the American people deserve."  (Letters to
>--Senator Howard M. Metzenbaum and Representative Charles E. Schumer; March 11,
>--1993.)
I wonder if the AMA has an exact listing of "lives saved" in
Tennessee, California, and other waiting period states.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal Univ. of Tenn. Div. of Cont. Education Info. Services Group
PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "I still remember the way you laughed, the day
your pushed me down the elevator shaft;  I'm beginning to think you don't
love me anymore." - "Weird Al"
From: chiu@io.nosc.mil (Francis Chiu)
Subject: Re: Blast them next time
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
Lines: 39
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: io.nosc.mil
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Daniel Oldham (oldham@ces.cwru.edu) wrote:
: What happened in Waco is not the fault of the BATF. If they would of
: had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the
: compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Initial assault on the "compound" ( more like a wooden farm house if
it burned to the ground like it did ) for WHAT?  Regardless of who
started/caused the fire, NONE of this would have happened if the
ATF can HONESTLY justify their initial assault and handled it
properly!
QUESTION AUTHORITY!
<SNIP>
: With the WoD and the increased crime in the streets the BATF is needed
: more now then ever. If they blast away a few good fokes then that is
: the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. Look
: at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country
: of ours.
:
: With the arms build up in Waco they needed to hit that compound with
Show me some evidenence instead of repeating what the FBI/ATF
told you.
: mega fire power. They could of gone in there blasting and killed a few
: women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn
: to death 51 days later.
Then I'm sure you won't mind if the ATF or the DEA raid your house
someday on a bogus informant tip.  So what if they killed/wounded your
family "accidentally" during the raid, it's just a fair price to pay
for law and order in this country, right?  Answer this question
honestly before making anymore ignorant statements!
What is even more disturbing than out of control government agencies
are citizens who allow them to be irresponsible.
--F. Chiu
From: gs26@prism.gatech.EDU (Glenn R. Stone)
Subject: Re: Change of name ??
Reply-To: glenns@eas.gatech.edu
Organization: The Group W Bench
Lines: 15
In <CMM.0.90.2.735315429.thomasp@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no> thomasp@ifi.uio.no (Thomas Parsli) writes:
>	1. Make a new Newsgroup called talk.politics.guns.PARANOID or
>	talk.politics.guns.THEY'R.HERE.TO.TAKE.ME.AWAY
>	2. Move all postings about waco and burn to (guess where)..
What does this <censored> from NORWAY think he's doing telling us
how to run the place?  I wanna know... somebody please 'splain.
Guess how NORWAY survived the Third Reich?  Give you a hint,
it wasn't by passive resistance the way the Danes did it....
Glenn R. Stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu)
wearer of asbestos underoos
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: Riddle me this...
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 19
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <1993Apr20.050550.4660@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>, j979@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (FULLER  M) writes:
> Yet, the FBI mouthpiece at this afternoon's press conference characterized
> the quantity of CS gas pumped into the building as "massive", and speculated
> that after a few hours of exposure any Davidian gas masks would become
> useless.
>
> Does this sound "not harmful" to you?
Hm.  A previous poster argued that the fact that the BD's did not rush to
escape the burning building indicated that it was they, and not any of the
government actions, that started the fire.  On the other hand, I wonder if,
with a face full of "massive amounts of CS," *I* would be able to escape
a burning tinder-box like that ranch house assuming my best efforts.
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: Waco, they did it.    ( MASADA )
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <C5rtLJ.Aqz@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf) writes:
> I can't see these people standing calmly around while they burned to
> death. Sorry. I just can't see them choosing a death as horrible as
> this. The story doesn't wash. It'll take some convincing to get me
> to believe it. The FBI said today that Koresh had earlier intended
> to strap himself with explosives, come over to the FBI agents and
> detonate, but lost his nerve. He lost his nerve for a quick, clean
> death but not to roasted alive? Sorry, don't believe it, even if he
> was nutty as a fruitcake.
On Ted Koppel last night, the ubiquitous Australian woman claimed that
Koresh trained the women (years ago) how to commit suicide by swallowing
cyanide or by putting a gun in their mouth.  With cyanide on hand, why
choose to roast yourself?  There are too many unanswered questions here.
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: gs26@prism.gatech.EDU (Glenn R. Stone)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Reply-To: glenns@eas.gatech.edu
Organization: The Group W Bench
Lines: 22
In <93109.13404334AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> 34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET writes:
>I will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors,
>but here goes:
Fret not, you made it.
>I have predicted this from the start, but God, it sickens me to see
>it happen. I had hoped I was wrong. I had hoped that there was
>still some shred of the America I grew up with, and loved, left
>alive. I was wrong. The Nazis have won.
Not while we still have our guns.  <evil grin>
Hey, gang, it's not about duck hunting, or about dark alleys,
it's about black-clad, helmeted and booted troops storming
houses and violating civil rights under color of law.
Are YOU ready to defend YOUR Constitution?
-- Glenn R. Stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu)
From: roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
Subject: Re: Blast them next time
Nntp-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
Distribution: usa
Lines: 9
In article <1r19l9$7dv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> oldham@ces.cwru.edu (Daniel Oldham) writes:
[flame-bait, pure and simple]
--
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: Rewording the Second Amendment (ideas)
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <1993Apr20.083057.16899@ousrvr.oulu.fi>, dfo@vttoulu.tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas) writes:
> In article <1qv87v$4j3@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
> >In article <C5n3GI.F8F@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu (John Lawrence Rutledge) writes:
> >> The massive destructive power of many modern weapons, makes the
> >> cost of an accidental or crimial usage of these weapons to great.
> >> The weapons of mass destruction need to be in the control of
> >> the government only.  Individual access would result in the
> >> needless deaths of millions.  This makes the right of the people
> >> to keep and bear many modern weapons non-existant.
> >Thanks for stating where you're coming from.  Needless to say, I
> >disagree on every count.
> You believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of
> mass destruction?  I find it hard to believe that you would support a
> neighbor's right to keep nuclear weapons, biological weapons, and nerve
> gas on his/her property.
> If we cannot even agree on keeping weapons of mass destruction out of
> the hands of individuals, can there be any hope for us?
I don't sign any blank checks.
When Doug Foxvog says "weapons of mass destruction," he means CBW and
nukes.  When Sarah Brady says "weapons of mass destruction" she means
Street Sweeper shotguns and semi-automatic SKS rifles.  When John
Lawrence Rutledge says "weapons of mass destruction," and then immediately
follows it with:
> The US has thousands of people killed each year by handguns,
> this number can easily be reduced by putting reasonable restrictions
> on them.
...what does Rutledge mean by the term?
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: kde@boi.hp.com (Keith Emmen)
Subject: Re: CNN for sale
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4
Lines: 5
If anyone is keeping a list of the potential contributors,
you can put me down for $1000.00 under the conditions above
Keith Emmen
kde@boi.hp.com
From: roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Nntp-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 50
In article <1993Apr20.163730.16128@guinness.idbsu.edu> betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz) writes:
>In article <C5rynw.Iz8@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>>And I suppose the FBI also prevented them from coming out with their
>>hands up while national tv cameras watch.
>>
>Watch from where?  Two miles away?  Far enough away that whatever
>really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of
>a humiliated agency that said (quote!) "Enough is enough."
Please tell me what you think would have happened had the people
come out with their hands up several weeks ago.
>>scenario that is simplest and most plausible.  I do not generally
>>believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely
>>scenarios.
>
>The FBI sent letters to Martin Luther King's wife insinuating
>that MLK was having an affair!  Again, please tell us exactly
>how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government.
More than someone who would not release children from the compound.
I.e., more than David Koresh/Vernon Howell/"Jesus Christ".
I saw lengthy excerpts from an Australian documentary made in
1992 that clearly showed that this was a cult.
I am not pleased with the BATF handling of the affair.  I think they
bungled it badly from the start.  But I don't think they are
responsible for the fire, which started in two different places.
>>The BATF is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair.
>>But to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is
>>ludicrous.
>
>I suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to
>risk small arms fire to get some good footage.  These people
>were told to get the hell out of camera range.  Why?
>
>Drew
>--
>betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
>*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
>*** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights   ***
>*** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc,
>    semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium
--
From: donb@netcom.com (Don Baldwin)
Subject: A picture is worth a thousand words...
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 531
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`
end
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad2.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
In-Reply-To: jmd@cube.handheld.com's message of 20 Apr 1993 16:26:47 GMT
In <1r1887INNcsd@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com writes:
> In article <1r0v4c$i1j@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
> writes:
> > In <1r0poqINNc4k@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com writes:
> >
> >   According to KIKK radio in Houston, all nine survivors are either in hos-
> > pitals or in jails.  Including the two who allegedly helped start the
> >fires.
>
> In the FBI briefing, no mention was made of having the fire starters in
> custody.
Which one?  The one yesterday, or has there been another?  If it was yester-
day, catch up.
IMO, 90% of all "conspiracy" charges are easily explained by the simple
fact that in these days of instantaneous news transmission, all kinds of
stuff gets said when people really just don't know what the hell's going on.
Then the story changes once the facts are in and suddenly cries of "its all a
whitewash!" start.  Naturally, everybody wants to cover his/her ass.
> > > Why the total isolation?
> >
> >   Well, it wasn't TOTAL, 100% isolation.  After the lawyer snuck in the
> > first time, they (the FBI, etc) let him go back inside several times, in-
> >cluding, I think, the day before the final assualt.
>
> Why not his mother?  Why not the media?
Damnfino.  I just tend to take issue with absolute statements that are ob-
viously wrong on their face and tend to inflame, not inform.  The isolation
was significant, but not total.
semper fi,
Jammer Jim Miller
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
________________________________________________________________________________
I don't speak for UH, which is too bad, because they could use the help.
"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."
"Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."
---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: FBI Murders (was Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN )
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.
Lines: 87
jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:
>I have believed all along that they could not let them live, the
>embarrassment  to the BATF and the FBI would've been too severe.
>Remember, this was a suspicion of tax-evasion warrant.  There were no
>witnesses, except the FBI.  All information filtered through the FBI.  All
>they had to do was allow one remote controlled pool camera be installed
>near the  building, and the press could've done their job, and would've
>been able to back the FBI's story with close up video, while incurring no
>risk to the press.  Unless they did not want the public to see something.
>The complete lack of any  other source of information other than the
>FBI really causes me concern.
>Sick to my stomach, and getting sicker from all the Government apologists
Well put, Jim.  I am as concerned about the media's complicity in this
growing coverup.  Can you imagine the media outrage, the lawsuits, the
investigations that would emit if the government kept the media away from
any other story?  Particularly if a Republican administration had been
behind it.  What's going on here?
Let's look beyond the initial blunder and examine what happened next.
I'm a student of human phychology, particularly in the area of psy-ops
because I've found some of the techniques to be useful in business
negotiations.  That puts me firmly in the amateur ranks.  This AMATEUR
knows that the first thing to do when sizing up the opponent is to do a
psychological profile on him.  You can bet your ass the FBI had
professionally done profiles on Koresh.  Koresh's behavior was
emminently predictable.  It is typical of people who move away from
civilization to be willing to fight to the death to preserve their
isolation.  It would also be typical, given Koresh's religious
orientation, for such an individual to interpret a government assault as
the apocalypse.  Suicide is as an acceptable alternative to being
consumed in the apocalypse.
IMHO, the FBI knew all this and decided after 50 days of concentrated
psy-ops to initiate that apocalypse.  I believe they chose a course of
action designed specifically to push Koresh over the edge while publicly
appearing to be acting reasonably.  They KNEW that Koresh considered the
tanks to be the Chariots of Fire mentioned in the Book of Revelations.
They KNEW that sending tanks, oops, combat engineering vehicles,
obstensibly to perform "gas insertions" (love that NewSpeak) WOULD push
him over the edge.
Look at some supporting evidence.  Koresh's attorney mentioned on TV
earlier today (4/20) that one of Koresh's major concern was the biblical
role of the tanks stationed around the compound.  The FBI (through Reno
on Larry King last night and at the news conference this morning)
claimed to have listening devices in the compound.  If that was true
they KNEW their actions were driving him to the brink.  They KNEW they
were pushing the Davidians toward mass suicide.  Any rational and
reasonable agency NOT interested in killing those people would, at
the first sign of preparations for suicide, have pulled completely back and
would have gotten rid of all the armor.  Instead they continued with the
"gas insertion" right up to the point where flames appeared.  The image
that will remain etched in my mind is that of the tank strutting back
and forth in front of the burning compound, gloating over the kill.
Let's step back and assess how this thing could have been ended without
bloodshed.  This technique would have required a law enforcement agency
interested in constitutionally enforcing the law and in the preservation
of life instead of achieving a military victory and of vengence.
The way to have nabbed Koresh was simply to have announced a pull back,
abandoned the assault, torn down the concertina wire and removed the
armor, maintained covert surveillance of the compound and then exploited
his ego to flush him out.  Exploiting his ego would have been simple.  A
simple invite or two from the tabloid talk shows to come on TV and tell
how he whipped the US government would have been something he could not
have resisted.  He could have then been nabbed when he left the
compound.  Simple, clean and safe but because it would have required the
FBI to execute a tactical retreat and would have deprived them of the
revenge they sought, it was totally out of the question.  Not without
all that testesterone floating around.  After all Jannet Reno had to
show the world how big her balls are.
Yesterday was a sad, sad day for the American system.  I am sick to my
very soul.
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers?
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Lee Harvey Oswald: Where are ya when we need ya?
From: auerbach@batman.bmd.trw.com
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Lines: 23
In article <1r19tp$5em@bigboote.WPI.EDU>, mfrhein@wpi.WPI.EDU (Michael Frederick Rhein) writes:
> In article <93109.13404334AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:
>>I will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors,
>>but here goes:
>>
> In short Mr. Gorman (I am assuming Mr. as a title because I don't think a
>woman would be stupid enough to make this post) I don't know what episode of CNN you
^^^^^
What an incrediblt sexist remark! Come now, Mike, what ever possessed you to
make such a un-PC remark?  I hope all women out there reading this are as
incensed as I am. Remember, WOMAN ARE JUST AS GOOD AS MEN!!!!
Women stand up for your right to be just as stupid as men. In fact, insist on
every oppurtunity to be even more stupid than men! You've got the right, use
it!
Hey, it's a slow afternoon and I really don't want to get back to that
report...;)
BTW: mega-smileys for the humor impaired...
Karl
From: roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Nntp-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 51
In article <1r0qsrINNc61@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:
>In article <C5s0Ds.J54@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
>writes:
>> I agree that they deserved a trial.  They had more than 40 days to come
>> out and get their trial.  They chose to keep the children with them and
>> to stay inside.  They chose to stay inside even after they were tear gassed.
>> I do not find these actions rational.  Even Noriega was smart enough to
>> give up and go for the trial he deserved.
>>
>
>Mr. Roby, you are a government sucking heartless bastard.
Unworthy of comment.
>Humans died
>yesterday, humans who would not have died if the FBI had not taken the
>actions
>they did.  That is the undeniable truth.  I cried for them.
Nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty.
That is undeniable truth.  My heart bleeds just as much as yours for
the children who were never released given 51 days of ample opportunities
to do so.  My heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion
to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up
and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning.
>You seem to say
>they got what they deserved.
I do not think this.  However, if they did set the fire (which started in
more than one place and spread very quickly), then they got what they
wanted and put into motion themselves.
I see the BATF is going to be investigated by the Justice Dept. and likely
by Arlen Spectre and congress.  This is good.  They have bungled the affair
from the start.
>Jim
>--
>jmd@handheld.com
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
>that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
>"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
>in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
>WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
--
From: mcclary@netcom.com (Michael McClary)
Subject: Re: Who's next?  Mormons and Jews?
Organization: Committee to commemorate the WACO Ghetto Uprising
Lines: 23
In article <1r0mtoINNa59@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM> dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM writes:
>Gordon Storga writes:
>
>>Gentleman, are we also forgetting the near genocide of the Native American
>>for the barbaric act of being "heathen" (i.e. a non-Christian) by a
>>predominantly Christian government.  That's a little over 200 years as I
>>recall.  I'd say that for the most part it was religious persecution
>>(their religion dictated their lifestyle).
>
>This is a stretch.  In fact, a great many of the persecuted Indians were
>Christian, a great many.  It would be simpler to state the obvious, that
>white people wanted land the Indians dominated or threatened.  I really
>don't think the government cared a hill of beans about the Indians' religion.
My Native American Girlfriend asks: "If the government really doesn't
'care a hill of beans' about our religion, how come they're still
busting us for it in Oregon, Washington, and a few other places?
You'd be a Christian, too, if the U.S. Army marched you into church
at gunpoint."
--
=	=	=	=	=	=	=	=	=	=
Michael McClary						mcclary@netcom.com
For faster response, address electronic mail to:	michael@node.com
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI revenge
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad2.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
In-Reply-To: donb@netcom.com's message of Tue, 20 Apr 1993 17:10:52 GMT
In <donbC5sL24.Ewu@netcom.com> donb@netcom.com writes:
> Anyway, here's how I see the Waco affair; I'd be interested in other peoples'
> interpretations...
>
> 1. Koresh and his people were basically minding their own business.
> 2. Some weapons violations may have been committed and I wouldn't have
>    disapproved of prosecuting him for those violations.  However, I think
>    the BATF was criminal for starting negotiations with a military style
>    assault and for firing into a house where there were children and other
>    noncombatants.
> 3. I don't see they couldn't just leave a token guard on the place and wait
>    the BDs out; I don't approve of the tear gas approach and, if it caused
>    the fire to be started, I think the FBI agent responsible should spend
>    10-20 years in jail.
I think the legal term would be "negligent homicide"
> 4. However, if Koresh's response to the tear gas was to kill everyone there,
>    I hold him largely responsible for their deaths.
Well, it's nice to see someone with a brain, a general lack of paranoia, and
a willingness to put his thoughts in public.  I tend to agree with all you have
said.
"Never assume foul motives when stupidity will do." -- Jim's Corrolary to
Occam's Razor
semper fi,
Jammer Jim Miller
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
________________________________________________________________________________
I don't speak for UH, which is too bad, because they could use the help.
"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."
"Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."
---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph
From: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak)
Subject: Letter To David Skaggs
Distribution: usa
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.
Lines: 136
Originator: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: icebucket.stortek.com
Here is a letter I sent to David Skaggs, (Dem, CO).  Before anybody says
something, yes the letter is a bit "sharp" in tone.  I have been writting
reasonable and polite letters to him for years, and all I get in return
in the HCI party line.  Since he already is NRA F rated, I don't think that
upsetting him will harm the cause.  Sorry if you disagree, but recent events
in Texas REALLY have me pissed.
-------------------
April  20, 1993
Representative Skaggs,
Recently I wrote to you regarding my outrage over the tactics used by the
Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, (BATF), in Texas.  In your response
you stated that "Events in Texas underscore the need for stricter gun control
legislation to keep guns out of the hand of groups such as the Branch Davidians.
My question to you is, "what grounds would you use to deny them access to
firearms?"  Best I can tell this statement underscores your apparent total
ignorance of the subject, and highlights your personal bias against firearms.
I say this because there are only two possible paths of "gun control" which you
could have been referencing.
Either:
1) You were talking about their access to semi-automatics firearms.  In this
case I should point out that semi-automatic firearms are legal in most areas of
this Country, including Texas and Colorado.  In addition the members of the
"cult" have never been convicted of any crimes which would deny them the ability
to purchase these weapons.  So under what grounds would you deny them these
guns?  Their religion?  The fact they they live in a large group alone by
themselves?  Because you consider them to be a cult?  Maybe I consider your
Church to be a cult!
This line of reasoning by you borders on the concept of "thought crimes."  You
and Pat Robertson should really get along.
2) You were referring to the ALLEGED FULLY automatic weapons possessed by the
"cult."  Under current US law, FULLY automatic weapons have been covered by
some of the strictest gun control laws in this Nation.  So if David Koresh
illegally possessed them, he would have had to circumvent some of the strictest
laws we have.  How will more laws help?  By the way, it has been reported that
David Koresh possessed a Federal Firearms License which would have permitted
him to possess FULLY automatic weapons.  If true, the 85 people who perished
Monday in the fire, died so that the Federal government could collect a couple
hundred dollars in taxes on guns David Koresh didn't declare.
I have heard claims that they were "stockpiling weapons."  Yet considering the
number of people in the complex, even 200+ weapons would not have been out of
line with gun ownership statistics for all of Texas.  What's next?  A siege of
Dallas/Ft Worth for alleged "stockpiling?"
Face it David Skaggs, You have voted for virtually EVERY gun control law that
has passed through Congress, yet you claim that you are only for "reasonable"
restrictions.  Bull****!   Handgun Control Inc. is struggling to maintain
250,000 PAID members, while the NRA has just exceeded 3,000,000 members.  They
are still growing at a rate of 2,000 new members per day.  Driving around YOUR
district I see NRA stickers every day.  In eight plus years of living here I
have only seen ONE HCI bumper sticker.  When you vote for your "reasonable"
gun control laws, are you really representing your district, or are you
representing Sarah Bradys'?
Thank You,
William J. Vojak
April  20, 1993
Representative Skaggs,
Recently I wrote to you regarding my outrage over the tactics used by the
Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, (BATF), in Texas.  In your response
you stated that "Events in Texas underscore the need for stricter gun control
legislation to keep guns out of the hand of groups such as the Branch Davidians.
My question to you is, "what grounds would you use to deny them access to
firearms?"  Best I can tell this statement underscores your apparent total
ignorance of the subject, and highlights your personal bias against firearms.
I say this because there are only two possible paths of "gun control" which you
could have been referencing.
Either:
1) You were talking about their access to semi-automatics firearms.  In this
case I should point out that semi-automatic firearms are legal in most areas of
this Country, including Texas and Colorado.  In addition the members of the
"cult" have never been convicted of any crimes which would deny them the ability
to purchase these weapons.  So under what grounds would you deny them these
guns?  Their religion?  The fact they they live in a large group alone by
themselves?  Because you consider them to be a cult?  Maybe I consider your
Church to be a cult!
This line of reasoning by you borders on the concept of "thought crimes."  You
and Pat Robertson should really get along.
2) You were referring to the ALLEGED FULLY automatic weapons possessed by the
"cult."  Under current US law, FULLY automatic weapons have been covered by
some of the strictest gun control laws in this Nation.  So if David Koresh
illegally possessed them, he would have had to circumvent some of the strictest
laws we have.  How will more laws help?  By the way, it has been reported that
David Koresh possessed a Federal Firearms License which would have permitted
him to possess FULLY automatic weapons.  If true, the 85 people who perished
Monday in the fire, died so that the Federal government could collect a couple
hundred dollars in taxes on guns David Koresh didn't declare.
I have heard claims that they were "stockpiling weapons."  Yet considering the
number of people in the complex, even 200+ weapons would not have been out of
line with gun ownership statistics for all of Texas.  What's next?  A siege of
Dallas/Ft Worth for alleged "stockpiling?"
Face it David Skaggs, You have voted for virtually EVERY gun control law that
has passed through Congress, yet you claim that you are only for "reasonable"
restrictions.  Bull****!   Handgun Control Inc. is struggling to maintain
250,000 PAID members, while the NRA has just exceeded 3,000,000 members.  They
are still growing at a rate of 2,000 new members per day.  Driving around YOUR
district I see NRA stickers every day.  In eight plus years of living here I
have only seen ONE HCI bumper sticker.  When you vote for your "reasonable"
gun control laws, are you really representing your district, or are you
representing Sarah Bradys'?
Thank You,
William J. Vojak
---------------------------
Bill Vojak
vojak@icebucket.stortek.com
NRA, ILA,
Colorado Firearms Coalition
------------------------------------------------------------
The CBS Nightly Propaganda With Dan Rather. (RATHER NOT!)
The CBS Nightly Propaganda With Dan Rather. (RATHER BIASED!)
------------------------------------------------------------
From: betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz)
Subject: Randy Weaver trial update: Day 5.
Nntp-Posting-Host: gozer
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club
Lines: 94
Note: These trial updates are summarized from reports in the
_Idaho Statesman_ and the local NBC affiliate television
station, KTVB Channel 7.
Randy Weaver/Kevin Harris trial update: Day 5.
Monday, April 19, 1993 was the fifth day of the trial.
Synopsis: Government informant Kenneth Fadeley testified that
Randy Weaver sold him two shotguns in violation of the National
Firearms Act of 1934.  U.S. District Court Judge Edward Lodge
asks jurors not to hear accounts of the Waco fire because
of possible influences on the Weaver/Harris case.
The testimony of FBI Special Agent Greg Rampton apparently
ended without further incident, as it was mentioned neither
by KTVB nor the _Idaho Statesman_.
The day was highlighted by the testimony of Kenneth Fadeley,
who had been posing as an outlaw biker and illegal guns person
named Gus Magiosono.  Fadeley testified that he was acting as
an informant for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms
in his dealings with Randy Weaver.
Fadeley began by stating that he had met Weaver in 1987 at an
Aryan Nations summer conference in Hayden Lake, Idaho.  The two
then met again October 11, 1989 (note the huge separation in
time) at a restaurant in Sandpoint, Idaho, to begin a weapons
transaction.  He stated that Weaver had said, "He felt like he
(Weaver) was being prepared to do something dangerous for the
White cause."
The two later met October 24, 1989 behind the restaurant and
later went to a city park to make the sale.  During this second
meeting, Fadeley was wearing a small recording device to
tape the conversation.  Weaver allegedly showed him an H&R 12-
gauge shotgun with a 13-inch barrel and an overall length of
19.25 inches.  He additionally showed a Remington 12-gauge
shotgun with a 12.75-inch barrel and an overall length of
24.5 inches (NFA requires minimums of 18 inches for barrel
length and an overall length of 26 inches).  On tape, Weaver
is reported to have said that he could perform better work once
his machine shop is set up.  The two then discuss the possibility
of future sales.  Fadeley then counts out three hundred dollars
for the two guns and promises the balance of one-hundred fifty
dollars when they next meet.  (Note that the ATF could have
simply arrested him here.  Why did they wait until January 1991 -
over a year later - to arrest him?  This is not explained).
The next meeting took place on Nov 30, 1989.  Fadeley stated that
his "source" had only come up with one hundred dollars instead
of the one-hundred fifty he'd promised.  At this point, Weaver
suspected he was dealing with an informant, "I had a guy in
Spokane tell me you were bad."  Fadeley managed to convince
Weaver otherwise.
The _Idaho Statesman_ states explicitly that three tapes were
made of conversations with Randy Weaver.  Thus, each of these
meetings must have been recorded.  However, the _Statesman_ also
reported that a tape of a telephone conversation involving Vicki
Weaver (Randy Weaver's wife) was played to the court.  There must
have also been phone taps.
These tapes were played to the court via both headphones and
loudspeakers under the objections of Gerry Spence, Weaver's
attorney.  Spence said to a KTVB reporter that he wanted to
make sure that the government proved its case, "...if it has a
case at all..." according to the rules.
Randy Weaver tore off his headphones and wept when he heard his
wife's voice on the tape.
U.S. District Court Judge Edward Lodge asked jurors not to hear
accounts of the Waco fire because of possible influences on the
Weaver/Harris case.  Exactly how such information could affect
this trial is not explained.
Other notes: Sunday evening there was a report on KTVB concerning
Kevin Harris.  Unnamed agents within the FBI admit that they are
surprised that Kevin Harris is still alive.  First, they were
surprised that he survived the initial gunshot wound(s) sustained
in the initial firefight at the Y-junction.  Later, when Randy
Weaver was struck by sniper fire the sniper had reported that
Harris had been struck (not Weaver).  Finally, there was a report
that the FBI agent who killed Vicki Weaver believed he was aiming
at Kevin Harris instead.  (This is what was reported).  Critics
are charging that the FBI was blatantly trying to eliminate the
only non-government witness to the deaths of Samuel Weaver and
Deputy Marshal William Degan.  Some local people believe that
Harris's survival is simply due to divine intervention.
Tuesday, April 20, 1993 will be the sixth day of the trial.
Kenneth Fadeley's testimony is scheduled to continue.
From: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Paul Eric Stoufflet)
Subject: Clipper Chip
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixf.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Paul Eric Stoufflet)
Organization: Columbia University
Distribution: usa
Lines: 12
I thought that the Clipper Chip that was posted to t.p.g (sorry, I lost
the original post) was a joke.  I really did.  I didn't believe it for
a second.  But on the way to work this morning, I heard about it on NPR.
This scares me almost as much as the doublespeak emanating from the
FBI and BATF in Waco.
***   Paul Eric Stoufflet
***   Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center
***   internet: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu
***   All opinions are my own
From: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Paul Eric Stoufflet)
Subject: Re: Die Koresh Die!
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixf.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Paul Eric Stoufflet)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 23
In article <1r04h8$q5a@umcc.umcc.umich.edu> tim@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Tim Tyler) writes:
>	I was hoping that --however the situation was resolved-- the
>property would remain intact, so the gov't could sell it to help pay for the
>hundreds of thousands of dollars of expenses incurred having to babysit
>Krazy Koresh & his flock of sheep.
>
In some South American countries, after political undesirables disappeared,
the family would get a notice of death and a bill for the disposal
of the body.  You apparently think that would be a good idea.
The Federal Government initiated this action against Koresh and his
followers, surrounded them for 51 days, engaged in psychological
warfare, used heavy military equipment against US citizens on
US soil; and now that the compound caught fire while they were
pumping in CS gas after knocking holes in the building; disavows
all responsibility.  Big Brother is NOT always right.
***   Paul Eric Stoufflet
***   Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center
***   internet: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu
***   All opinions are my own
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: Ax the ATF
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <donbC5sL69.F7I@netcom.com>, donb@netcom.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
> It's hard to know what/who to believe.  However, the letter I received from
> the BATF, in response to one I sent to Bentsen, said that there was a search
> warrant AND an arrest warrant.
Check again.  You may find that the arrest warrant was issued AFTER the
first firefight.
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Nice Guy)
Subject: Re: Blast them next time
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Distribution: usa
Lines: 35
In article <1r19l9$7dv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> oldham@ces.cwru.edu (Daniel Oldham) writes:
>What happened in Waco is not the fault of the BATF. If they would of
>had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the
>compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened.
>
>The BATF needs more people, better weapons and more armored
>transports. When they meet hostile fire they should be able to use
>more force instead of retreating to a stand off. If you are going to
>do a job then do it right. The BATF is there to protect us and they
>must have the proper equipment and people to do the job.
>
>With the WoD and the increased crime in the streets the BATF is needed
>more now then ever. If they blast away a few good fokes then that is
>the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. Look
>at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country
>of ours.
>
>With the arms build up in Waco they needed to hit that compound with
>mega fire power. They could of gone in there blasting and killed a few
>women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn
>to death 51 days later.
>
I HOPE THAT YOU ARE IN THE WAY OF THE NOBLE FEDERAL ENFORCERS and
are blown away accidently by the governments goons.
You would cheer the death to 25 childern?
This is the sort of person who served as a death camp guard.
--
Rod Anderson  N0NZO            | The only acceptable substitute
Boulder, CO                    | for brains is silence.
rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu         |       -Solomon Short-
satellite  N0NZO on ao-16      |
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <KEVIN.93Apr20085431@axon.usa>, kevin@axon.usa (Kevin Vanhorn) writes:
> In article <C5rpoJ.IJv@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
> >
> > Two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set
> > by cult members.
>
> Correction: The *FBI* *says* that two of the nine who escaped said the fire
> was deliberately set by cult members.  Since the press was kept miles away,
> we have absolutely no independent verification of any of the government's
> claims in this matter.
Moreover, the BATF has admitted having agents in the compound, and as
far as I have been able to ascertain, those agents were still in the
compound when the first shots were fired.  For all we know, these two
people may BE the agents, who would certainly be unlikely to stay around
and "cook" with the faithful...
Assuming the two people in question were even in the compound at all.
Maybe I sound paranoid, but I watched Janet Reno last night harping on
how much David Koresh was a big, bad child abuser, and I kept wondering
why she -- much less BATF -- wanted us to infer that she had any
jurisdiction over such accusations in the first place.
I'm POSITIVE that the "sealed warrant" is not for child abuse.  What was
it for?  Peobably weapons violations.  Janet Reno didn't say WORD ONE
last night about weapons violations.  Why?  Because she knows that such
a case is no longer believable?
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
Keywords: Nata thing !!
In article <1993Apr20.143255.12711@mcs.kent.edu>, mhamilto@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (The Lawnmowerman) writes:
> > THIS IS GENOCIDAL MASS-SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN!
> Is this guy serious????
> If he would ever really pay attention to the news (oops I forgot that the media
>    for the most part loves to jump right on top of a story before all the facts
>    are known, as well as to manipulate what we see and thus what we believe).
>    Besides, a majority of
>    these children were children that he was supposed to have been the father of,
>    this then makes them bastard children to a sacraligious zeloit (sp).
Oh, then, I guess that shooting THOSE kind of babies is all right.
You sick bastard.
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <1r19tp$5em@bigboote.WPI.EDU>, mfrhein@wpi.WPI.EDU (Michael Frederick Rhein) writes:
> >napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it.
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day
> in Texas.
Do YOU eat all your food cold?
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Nice Guy)
Subject: Incompetent law enforcement can kill
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Lines: 40
Ever since the siege at Waco started the FBI spokesman has been
stressing how unstable and paranoid David Koresh was.  He stressed how
likely it was the the Branch Davidians would commit mass suicide.  He
was concerned with the safety of the children.
What did the FBI do to defuse the situation,  Did they try to reassure
Koresh?  DId the FBI offer medical assistance to the BD?  Did the FBI
offer them a supply of water when the BD pump stoped working?  Did the
permit Koresh to communicate with anyone outside the compound?
What the FBI did was harass the Branch Davidians as much as possible.
They kept powerful lights shining on the compound, shut off their
electrical power, put their pump out of action, assaulted their ears
with loud noise, cut off their communication with the outside and kept
limiting their permitter.  The stated goal was to put pressure on
David Koresh.
Was the FBI attempting to get Koresh to surrender or were they hoping
to get Koresh so mad that he and some of his followers would attack
the the tanks.
It appears that the tactics employed by the FBI did drive Koresh over
the edge.  The blame for the deaths should be shared by both the
federal experts whose tactics drove Koresh over the edge and the fools
at the ATF who planed the raid.
Stupidity and incompetence of the BATF and the FBI leadership have
resulted in the needless death of 90 innocent people.
If every thing had gone as planned 90 people would be alive today.
Instead the ATF screwed up and caused the death of 90+.  Incompetent
law enforcement can kill you!
--
Rod Anderson  N0NZO            | The only acceptable substitute
Boulder, CO                    | for brains is silence.
rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu         |       -Solomon Short-
satellite  N0NZO on ao-16      |
From: rscharfy@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Ryan C Scharfy)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnusug.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 19
In article <mvpC5rp8n.3ts@netcom.com> mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>In article <16BB5124A0.PA146008@UTKVM1.UTK.EDU> PA146008@UTKVM1.UTK.EDU (David
Veal) writes:
>>       Be cute if Koresh hit the trail.
>>
>>       Maybe he was bodily assumed into heaven.  Wouldn't that just
>>make AG Reno's day?
>
>*snort*  I sorta doubt it...
>
>However... No bodies?  By the time this message gets out
>they'll doubtless have found bunches, but wouldn't it be
>interesting if they had a tunnel and  are long gone?
If they hadn't killed the ATF people in the original raid, I think I would
laugh my ass off.  (Actually, to be honest, I still might.)
Ryan
From: meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Subject: Re: Some more about gun control...
Organization: N/I
Lines: 16
In article <1993Apr14.232806.18970@beaver.cs.washington.edu> graham@cs.washington.edu (Stephen Graham) writes:
[ ... ]
>It's worth noting that US vs. Miller sustained Miller's conviction
>of possession of an illegal firearm, noting that a sawed-off shotgun
>was not a proper militia weapon. Therefore, US vs. Miller supports
>limited government regulation of firearms.
Then it also supports basing such regulations on ignorance.
Miller had disappeared, and nobody bothered to present _his_
side to the Supreme Court -- in particular, that sawed-off
shotguns were used in the World War I trenches, and in other
tight spots ever since guns had been invented.  Would _you_
turn one down if you had to "clean" an alley in E. St. Louis?
--------
Vegetarians kill, too
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: Blast them next time
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 22
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <1r19l9$7dv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, oldham@ces.cwru.edu (Daniel Oldham) writes:
> The BATF needs more people, better weapons and more armored
> transports. When they meet hostile fire they should be able to use
> more force instead of retreating to a stand off. If you are going to
> do a job then do it right. The BATF is there to protect us and they
> must have the proper equipment and people to do the job.
The BATF is there to collect taxes, not to protect your sorry ass or mine.
> With the WoD and the increased crime in the streets the BATF is needed
> more now then ever. If they blast away a few good fokes then that is
> the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country.
All flame-bait, of course.  If you really want to be flame bait, send me
your address and I'll tell the BATF about those automatic weapons you
have stockpiled.  You'll be warm in no time.
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Nice Guy)
Subject: Will CS burn or explode
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Lines: 13
The FBI released large amounts of CS tear gas into the compound in
Waco.  CS tear gas is a fine power.  Is CS inflammable.  Grain dust
suspended in air can form an explosive mixture, will CS suspended in air
form an explosive mix? Could large quantities of CS have fueled the
rapid spread of fire in the compound?
Please note I am directing all followups to talk.politics.guns
--
Rod Anderson  N0NZO            | The only acceptable substitute
Boulder, CO                    | for brains is silence.
rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu         |       -Solomon Short-
satellite  N0NZO on ao-16      |
From: cntrspy@netcom.com (Executive Protection Assoc)
Subject: Re: Blast them next time
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Distribution: usa
Lines: 32
///////   And we thought the unfortunate people in the Branch Dividians were
Brainwashed ??  They don't hold a candle to this guy......
D:d
:wq
B
///////////////////////////////////
Daniel Oldham (oldham@ces.cwru.edu) wrote:
: What happened in Waco is not the fault of the BATF. If they would of
: had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the
: compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened.
:
: The BATF needs more people, better weapons and more armored
: transports. When they meet hostile fire they should be able to use
: more force instead of retreating to a stand off. If you are going to
: do a job then do it right. The BATF is there to protect us and they
: must have the proper equipment and people to do the job.
:
: With the WoD and the increased crime in the streets the BATF is needed
: more now then ever. If they blast away a few good fokes then that is
: the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. Look
: at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country
: of ours.
:
: With the arms build up in Waco they needed to hit that compound with
: mega fire power. They could of gone in there blasting and killed a few
: women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn
: to death 51 days later.
:
From: ndallen@r-node.hub.org (Nigel Allen)
Subject: FBI Director's Statement on Waco Standoff
Organization: R-node Public Access Unix - 1 416 249 5366
Lines: 26
In the interests of completeness, I thought readers of these
newsgroups would want to see FBI Director William Sessions'
statement, as released by the FBI press office.
FBI Director's Statement On Waco Standoff
To: National Desk
Contact: Federal Bureau of Investigation, Press Office,
202-324-3691
WASHINGTON, April 19 -- The following is a statement by
FBI Director William S. Sessions regarding the Branch Davidian
incident in Waco, Texas:
"I had hoped to be making a very different statement this evening.
After very careful planning and extensive preparation we all thought
that today's efforts by the FBI to bring the Branch Davidians out of
their compound would result in the peaceful resolution of the
stand-off or at least meaningful negotiation.
"Instead, we are faced with devastation and death.  However, I
have no question that our plan was correct and was conducted with
extreme professionalism and care.  I applaud the restraint shown by
agents in the face of life-threatening gunfire, and I thank them for
risking their lives to try to end this peacefully.  I have only the
greatest admiration for the courage and professionalism of all
involved."
-30-
From: irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Lines: 63
In article <93109.13404334AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:
>I will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors,
>but here goes:
>
>Monday, 19 April, 1993 13:30 EDT
>
>                    MURDER  MOST  FOUL!!
>
>CNN is reporting as I write this that the ATF has ignited all
>the buildings of the Branch Dividian ranch near Waco, TX. The
>lies from ATF say "holes were made in the walls and 'non-lethal' tear
>gas pumped in". A few minutes after this started the whole thing went up.
>ALL buildings are aflame. NO ONE HAS ESCAPED. I think it obvious that
>the ATF used armored flame-thrower vehicles to pump in unlit
>napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it.
Actually if 'a few minutes' translates into 6 hours, you have it
right.  BUT you (and I guess your single-source news agency CNN)
failed to mention the Davidians pouring kerosene all over and lighting it in plain
view.
>THIS IS MURDER!
Well, small-scale Jim Jones type suicide with fire instead of kool-aid.
>
>ATF MURDERERS!  BUTCHERS!!
Sorry, guy, you got it wrong.  ATF was pumping tear gas into the compound.
The Branch Davidians (going along with their apocolyptic faith) set their
own compound on fire killing all but 9 or so.  No children survived.
>THIS IS GENOCIDAL MASS-SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN!
Self-slaughter, anyway.  I pity the children who were to young to be able
to make a conscious choice.
>I have predicted this from the start, but God, it sickens me to see
>it happen. I had hoped I was wrong. I had hoped that there was
>still some shred of the America I grew up with, and loved, left
>alive. I was wrong. The Nazis have won.
You are wrong.  Thank goodness.  I would suggest, however, that you take
a deep breath, and wait 30 minutes or so before posting.  Also make sure
your facts are correct before making your allegations(sp.).
>I REPEAT, AS OF THIS TIME THERE ARE **NO  SURVIVORS**!
You repeated wrong.  There were 9.
>God help us all.
God help the Branch Davidians.
>PLEASE CROSSPOST -- DON'T LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THE SLAUGHTER OF THE CHILDREN!
NO DON'T!!!!  THERE IS WAY TOO MUCH OF THIS CRAP BEING CROSSPOSTED ALL OVER
CREATION AS IT IS!!!!!!
--
<><><><><><><><><><> Personal opinions? Why,  <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<>  BRENT IRVINE  <> yes.  What did you think <> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu  <>
<><><><><><><><><><> they were?.......        <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
From: random@cbnewse.cb.att.com (David L. Pope)
Subject: Riddle me something else.
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Lines: 11
> On the other hand, I wonder if,
> with a face full of "massive amounts of CS," *I* would be able to escape
> a burning tinder-box like that ranch house assuming my best efforts.
What ever happened to the 'Adobe Fortress' I kept hearing about? I
thought this was a 'Cult Stronghold'! If the kgbatf knew it was a
tinderbox, why didn't they just have all the talking heads line up
and start huffin' and puffin?
Random
From: chuck@eng.umd.edu (Chuck Harris - WA3UQV)
Subject: Re: Riddle me this...
Organization: University of Maryland, Department of Electrical Engineering
Lines: 15
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: bree.eng.umd.edu
In article <1993Apr20.050550.4660@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> j979@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (FULLER  M) writes:
>Does a "not harmful" gassing mean that you can, with a little willpower,
>stay inside indefinitely without suffering any serious health problems?
>
>If so, why was CS often employed against tunnels in Vietnam?
>
>What IS the difference, anyway?
CS "tear-gas" was used in Vietnam because it makes you wretch so hard that
your stomach comes out thru your throat.  Well, not quite that bad, but
you can't really do much to defend yourself while you are blowing cookies.
Chuck Harris - WA3UQV
chuck@eng.umd.edu
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: Re: Die Koresh Die!
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting
Lines: 9
The explanations of Federal law enforcement officials about what
happened in Waco is just another example of the survivors writing the
history books to put themselves in the best of a bad light.
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
I'm beginning to look forward to reaching the %100 allocation of taxes
to pay for the interest on the national debt. At that point the
federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds.
From: glover@tafs2.mitre.org (Graham K. Glover)
Subject: The Cold War: Who REALLY Won?
Nntp-Posting-Host: gglover-mac.mitre.org
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA
Lines: 13
If one reasons that the United States of America at one time represented
and protected freedom << individual liberty and personal responsibility >>
(and I do, in fact, think that this is true) and that totalitarianism <<
absolute government control and tyranny >> represents freedom's opposite
(which it does), did the USA really win the cold war?
Standard disclaimers ALWAYS apply!
----------------
Graham K. Glover
----------------
UNMUTUAL
From: roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Nntp-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 45
In article <1993Apr20.195636.17742@guinness.idbsu.edu> betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz) writes:
>In article <C5sou8.LnB@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>>>Watch from where?  Two miles away?  Far enough away that whatever
>>>really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of
>>>a humiliated agency that said (quote!) "Enough is enough."
>>
>>Please tell me what you think would have happened had the people
>>come out with their hands up several weeks ago.
No answer.
>You didn't answer the question.  The FBI took people out of
>camera range.  It is thus possible that they were engaging in
>questionable activities.
I do not feel like the cameras were out of range.  Cameras watched the first
confrontation.  Cameras watched the banners.  Cmaeras watched the final
confrontation with tanks.  Cameras watched the fire.  When weren't cameras
able to watch?  When would cameras be unable to watch people coming out with
their hands up?
>As to your question, please tell me what you think would have happened
>had the ATF goon squad knocked and asked politely several weeks
>ago (as opposed to playing Rambo with a t.v. crew in tow).
Well, that is what BATF should have done.  Either, Koresh would have gone
peaceably as he has done in the past, or perhaps it was already too close
to the apocalypse in his own mind.  It is hard to predict the actions of
a leader who would not release the children when most rational people would.
Now will you answer my question up top?
>
>Drew
>--
>betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
>*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
>*** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights   ***
>*** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc,
>    semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium
--
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago, academic Computer Center
From: Jason Kratz <U28037@uicvm.uic.edu>
Subject: Re: Statement to everyone on t.p.g
<1993Apr19.201300.27080@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>
Lines: 43
In article <1993Apr19.201300.27080@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>,
andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) says:
>
>Clue - Kratz' position isn't a defense against inaccuracy.
>
>I oppose gun control because it doesn't work.  If it did, I'd support
>it.  In fact, I supported gun control before I did my homework.
>
>There's no demand for pro-gun people who don't know what they're
>talking about.  In fact, they'd be much better off if they didn't say
>anything.
>
And why is this Freeman?  Even if a pro-gun person doesn't know what they are
talking about there is always the possibility that they will learn a thing or
two.  I am and will continue to post even if people get angry with what I have
to say.  I have several good sources of material now that I know where to look
so calm down.
>There's lots of information flowing on tpg for those interested in
>learning.  One can participate in those discussions without ranting
>inaccurately.  Failure to do so has consequences.
>
Ah, Freeman seems to forget from my statement that I am learning.  I have also
asked several of the not-so-hostile folks on this group for sources of
information to read.  Do you think, Freeman, that maybe this means I am
interested in learning?  I think it does because as you said people who don't
know anything won't be good for the pro-gun cause.
>Another good habit to get into is to go read-only for a while, to take
>the time to figure out how things work.
>
Another good habit to get into is to realize that not everyone is you Freeman
and accept mistakes.  Sure, maybe it could have been some type of
misinformation being slung by some anti-gun nut but it wasn't.  I made my
statement to inform everyone of this and everyone who replied said don't worry
about it but also to learn as much as you can.  They accepted my mistake and
gave me sources of information and told me to read as much as possible.  I have
read several posts of yours and have found them informative.  Why don't you
give me the same chance?
>-andy
Jason
From: lsacks@angelo.amd.com (Larry Sacks)
Subject: Re: Guns GONE. Good Riddance !
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
Lines: 29
jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu writes:
>You are loosing.
[stuff deleted]
>Avoid situations which encourage criminals. Then you will
>be as safe as possible. Such as it is ...
Really?  How do you avoid situations which encourage criminals?  I'd
really like to know.  Would you, say, prohibit female college
students from riding their bicycles near the university during the
daytime?
Sounds a bit drastic, doesn't it?  Especially when the university is
locatd in a nice residential area.  A friend of mine was attacked and
nearly raped in just this situation.  The police didn't feel she was
in a situation which 'encouraged criminals'.
What do you think?  Should we just tell her, that it was her fault
for daring to ride a bicycle in the middle of the day?  That she
didn't avoid a situation that encouraged criminals?  If that's the
case, then we'd all better put bars on our doors and windows and
pray for a police state to keep us all safe.  Crime happens in all
situations - there are no defined areas that criminals avoid.
Larry Sacks
Advanced Micro Devices
lsacks@angelo.amd.com
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Sun
Lines: 33
NNTP-Posting-Host: concertina
In article <C5sv88.HJy@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
>In article <1r1j3n$4t@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>>In article <1r19tp$5em@bigboote.WPI.EDU>, mfrhein@wpi.WPI.EDU (Michael Frederick Rhein) writes:
>>
>>> >napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it.
>>>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day
>>> in Texas.
>>
>>Do YOU eat all your food cold?
>
>Ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves?  Very popular.
>Electric stoves outside metro-areas especially.
Brent, the Feds turned off the BD's electricity a couple of weeks ago...
Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to the radio, TV, or newspapers,
though.
--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
From: roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Nntp-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 61
In article <1r1rad$7rl@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>In article <C5s0Ds.J54@news.udel.edu>, roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
[The original question was about who started the fire and whether the
"madmen" were inside or outside the compound.  To which I replied on
the possible sanity level of those inside and outside.]
>
>> According to an Australian documentary made in the year before the stand off
>> began, Koresh and his followers all believed he was Christ.  Koresh
>> had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound.
>> These were the "perfect children" resulting from the "great seed" of
>> his "magnified horn".  Ex-members describe him in ways not dissimilar
>> to the way Jim Jones has been described.
>
>Point noted.  Have you submitted YOUR faith and sex life for BATF clearance?
>Better hurry; I believe the deadline was April 15.
I paid my taxes.  There was no reference to sex or religion on the form.
The comments above and below were meant to address who might be unstable
enough to keep children in a building with tear gas or start a fire.
>> FBI agents have to pass rigorous psychological examinations and background
>> checks.  Plus, those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain their
>> decisions in great detail to congress.  Why would the FBI want to fulfill
>> Koresh's own prophecy?
>
>And nevertheless, they hit all their marks and read all the scripted lines.
>Well, it sure beats the hell out of me.  Maybe Thoreau had a clue when he
>said, "It is impossible to make anything foolproof, because fools are so
>ingenious."
I agree that the BATF handled the affair badly.
>> >:Two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set
>> >:by cult members.
>> >
>> >Correction:  The *FBI* said that two of the cult members said this; so far,
>> >no one else has been able to talk to them.
>>
>> So, when they talk to the news reporters directly, and relate the same details,
>> will you believe them?
>
>Believe them?  I won't even RECOGNIZE them.  And neither will anyone else
>who doesn't know them personally.
Do you believe they would put impostors before the national tv cameras?
At this point, we are getting conflicting reports from the survivors.
Best wait til more light is shed upon them.  Of course, this is no
good if you believe in eternal darkness.
>--
>
>cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
>OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
>
--
From: roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Nntp-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 51
In article <lt8keoINN31v@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix) writes:
>In article <C5sIAJ.Ks7@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>>
>>Why didn't they release the children weeks ago?
>
>It would have been inconsistent behavior for them to have done so.
>
>Some people believe that there is more to life than the physical requirements.
>
>These folks believed that the generally-held standards of the surrounding
>community (heck, most of the world) were morally wrong, and letting the
>children be abandoned to this (godless/unbelieving) culture would be condeming
>them to eternal loss and separation from God.
>
>By their standards, letting the children go would be abandoning them to a fate
>literally worse than death.
>
>The FBI (and BATF and media) people working on the issue, I suspect,
>just couldn't get their heads into a similar-enough (to say nothing of
>identical) mode of thinking to realize what they were doing.
>
>Physically, there was no reason why the BD's shouldn't have given up and come
>out a long time ago.
>
>From the point of view of the BD's, they were up against the wall and had nowhere
>to go at all.
>
>They apparently really did love their kids too much to abandon them to a godless
>bunch of outsiders...although the end result was horribly twisted.
>
>I didn't say the BD's were right, I just said that that's the way they perceived
>it.
>
>Koresh was a nutcase, and a bunch of other people paid for that.
>
>And the FBI and BATF miscalculated and misunderstood what was going on from the
>word go.
Very likely possible.  Reminds me of the movie "The Rapture".
>
>--
>-------------------------------------------------------
>| Some things are too important not to give away      |
>| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
>|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
--
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting
Lines: 10
It's truly unfortunate that we don't have the Japanese tradition of
Hari-Kari for public officials to salvage some tatters of honor after
they commit offenses against humanity like were perpetrated in Waco,
Texas today.
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
I'm beginning to look forward to reaching the %100 allocation of taxes
to pay for the interest on the national debt. At that point the
federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds.
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
From: steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu (Jason 'Think!' Steiner)
Nntp-Posting-Host: jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 26
Brent Irvine (irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu) writes:
> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
> >mfrhein@wpi.WPI.EDU (Michael Frederick Rhein) writes:
> >
> >> >napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it.
> >>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use
> >> on a warm day  in Texas.
> >
> >Do YOU eat all your food cold?
> Ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves?  Very popular.
> Electric stoves outside metro-areas especially.
oh, i see. electricity is a natural right & our wonderful government
would -never- cut off the power to the people they were besieging.
are you really this dumb, or just acting like it for the sake of
argument?
jason
--
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`
`,` "True love is better than anything, except cough drops."            `,`
`,`                     - The Princess Bride (book), by William Goldman `,`
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu `,`,`,`
From: chiu@io.nosc.mil (Francis Chiu)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: io.nosc.mil
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Brent Irvine (irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: failed to mention the Davidians pouring kerosene all over and lighting it in
: plain view.
Brent, I'm still waiting to see if there are any evidence of how the fire
got started, so I'm not going to tell you who did it...  As far as you keep
talking about the Davidians pouring kerosene all over, stop and *think*
for a second if it is possible the stove or lamp was knocked over and
started a fire, and the Davidians were pouring water on it (wrong solution
but I doubt I can do much better in their states of mind...) to try to
put it out?
By the way, just how far where you standing from the Davidians when you
saw them setting the place on fire?   Oh, in case you are new in town,
microwave ovens doesn't work very well when there's no electricty. :-0
Get some *facts* before you post next time!
--F. Chiu
From: strait@cheetah.csl.uiuc.edu (Jeffrey C. Strait)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: The University of Illinois
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cheetah.csl.uiuc.edu
In article <C5sv88.HJy@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
> >> >napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it.
> >>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day
> >> in Texas.
> >
> >Do YOU eat all your food cold?
>
> Ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves?  Very popular.
> Electric stoves outside metro-areas especially.
>
Microwaves don't work very well with no electricity Mr Engineer.
> --
> <><><><><><><><><><> Personal opinions? Why,  <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> <>  BRENT IRVINE  <> yes.  What did you think <> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu  <>
> <><><><><><><><><><> they were?.......        <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
--
| Jeff Strait                       | strait@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu        |
| University of Illinois            | PHONE: (217) 333-6444            |
| "If you ladies leave this island, if you survive basic recruit       |
| training, you will be a weapon, a minister of death praying for war" |
From: earlw@apple.com (Earl Wallace)
Subject: Re: Who's next?  Mormons and Jews?
Organization: Apple Computer Inc. ESD/OSBU/Cross-Platform Software
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: apple.com
In article <1993Apr20.003522.22480@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1qvfik$6rf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cj195@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John W. Redelfs) writes:
>>Now that Big Brother has rubbed out one minority religion in Waco, who is
>>next?  The Mormons or Jews?
>
>The Koreshians rubbed themselves out.  Neither Mormons nor Jews have a
>propensity for dousing themselves with kerosene, so I'm not particularly
>concerned.  (Or shall we blame Jim Jones on the government also?)
>...
Let's see if I have this straight.  A law is created that says "you can not
have a automatic weapon" and therefore it's ok for the government to use
any level of force to enforce that law.  Doesn't matter if the entire
population of the planet is destroyed as long as that law is obeyed.
Do I read you correctly?
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <C5sv88.HJy@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
> >> As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day
> >> in Texas.
> >Do YOU eat all your food cold?
> Ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves?  Very popular.
> Electric stoves outside metro-areas especially.
And they work especially well when the Feds have cut off your utilities.
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <C5sv88.HJy@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent
Irvine) writes:
> In article <1r1j3n$4t@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D.
Tavares) writes:
> >In article <1r19tp$5em@bigboote.WPI.EDU>, mfrhein@wpi.WPI.EDU (Michael
Frederick Rhein) writes:
> >
> >> >napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it.
> >>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm
day
> >> in Texas.
> >
> >Do YOU eat all your food cold?
>
> Ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves?  Very popular.
> Electric stoves outside metro-areas especially.
Brent shows his ignorance once again.  Power had been cut for weeks.  And he's
never lived in a rural area if he thinks electric stoves have favor there.
They stop working when the power fails, and power restoration come MUCH slower
in the country, than the city.  LP gas stoves and ovens are very much prefered.
>
> --
> <><><><><><><><><><> Personal opinions? Why,  <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> <>  BRENT IRVINE  <> yes.  What did you think <> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu  <>
> <><><><><><><><><><> they were?.......        <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 82
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <C5sou8.LnB@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
writes:
> In article <1993Apr20.163730.16128@guinness.idbsu.edu> betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
(Andrew Betz) writes:
> >In article <C5rynw.Iz8@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
writes:
> >>And I suppose the FBI also prevented them from coming out with their
> >>hands up while national tv cameras watch.
> >>
> >Watch from where?  Two miles away?  Far enough away that whatever
> >really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of
> >a humiliated agency that said (quote!) "Enough is enough."
>
> Please tell me what you think would have happened had the people
> come out with their hands up several weeks ago.
>
It didn't happen.
> >>scenario that is simplest and most plausible.  I do not generally
> >>believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely
> >>scenarios.
> >
> >The FBI sent letters to Martin Luther King's wife insinuating
> >that MLK was having an affair!  Again, please tell us exactly
> >how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government.
>
> More than someone who would not release children from the compound.
>
Obviously.  You are an authority worshiper.
> I.e., more than David Koresh/Vernon Howell/"Jesus Christ".
> I saw lengthy excerpts from an Australian documentary made in
> 1992 that clearly showed that this was a cult.
>
Give me a camera, and time with you, and I can present excerpts that show you
to be a cult leader.  Guarenteed. You should at least view the whole
documentary before you claim it as a source.
> I am not pleased with the BATF handling of the affair.  I think they
> bungled it badly from the start.  But I don't think they are
> responsible for the fire, which started in two different places.
>
Two places, eh?  You saw this?  Or did the wonderful FBI tell you this?
I saw one place.
> >>The BATF is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair.
> >>But to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is
> >>ludicrous.
> >
> >I suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to
> >risk small arms fire to get some good footage.  These people
> >were told to get the hell out of camera range.  Why?
> >
Couldn't answer this one, eh?  This is the most important question of all, it
is the root cause of all the other suspicion.
> >Drew
> >--
> >betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
> >*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
> >*** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights   ***
> >*** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc,
> >    semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium
>
>
> --
>
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Subject: Re: The 'pill' for Deer = No Hunting
Organization: N/I
Lines: 114
In article <1qk3jm$9sh@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.221646.2332@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>, jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu writes:
[ ... ]
>> 	Why are 'good' neighborhoods 'good' ? It isn't because every
>> 	person is armed to the teeth. It is because of (1) attitude
>> 	and (2) cooperation. In the 'good' neighborhoods, the residents
>> 	make themselves aware of their neighbors and notice when
>> 	strangers are lurking around. 'Good' neighborhoods form groups
>> 	like 'crime-watch' to increase this effect, and the relative
>> 	effectiveness of the police. When hostiles are arrested, the
>> 	good neighbors step up and say "THAT'S the one officer ! He
>> 	was robbing Mr. Jones' house".
>
>Sometimes this works.  Sometimes it just lands your good neighbors
>on the dance card for the next wave of drive-bys.  Someone here once
>told a story about LA gangs moving into Phoenix.  I've misplaced the
Here'a a copy, cdt:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,ou.politics
>Path: dg-rtp!psinntp!uunet!sun-barr!ames!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!mvp
>From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
>Subject: The difference an armed civilian population makes
>Message-ID: <y52n_tc.mvp@netcom.com>
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 23:42:42 GMT
>Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
>References: <swood.716099748@vela>
>Lines: 84
>
>Along the lines of "The Armed Citizen", here's a story that
>some of you may find amusing.  It's a story about Arizona
>house-hunting, from Leslie Fish, musician and author...
>
>----
>     ... One of the reasons I'm planning to move to Arizona is that --
>despite its lousy economy, 4-way race problems, simmering religious
>problems and hopelessly bad government -- Arizona has one of the lowest
>violent- crime rates in the country. Is it just coincidence that
>Arizona is also one of the few remaining no-gun- control states in the
>country?
>
>    Well, consider this funny story. Last time I was in Phoenix,
>staying with Liz Burnham, I did some checking on the local real-estate
>market (that's when I discovered that, with my income -- as provable by
>my tax returns -- I can qualify for every low-income housing loan in
>the book, with the exception of VA), and I came across an astonishing
>ad in the local market-paper. It offered a three-bedroom house in the
>Phoenix area for -- are you ready for this -- all of $10,000. No money
>down. $100 per month total payments. Christ on a Harley-Davidson! I
>called up the real-estate office making this offer, made it clear that
>I was only checking the local market, and asked about that house. Were
>the walls, roof and foundation structurally sound? Yes. Were the
>plumbing and electrical systems functional and up to code? Yes. Did the
>air-conditioning system (an absolute necessity in Phoenix) work?  Yes,
>again.  Okay, so what was wrong with the house?  Well, it needed lots
>of plastering, painting, yard work, and some patching of the roof --
>and yes, low-interest repair loans were available.  Okay, sez I. If
>that's all that's wrong with it, just why are you selling a 3-bedroom
>house for all of $10,000? Well, squirms the agent, it's in kind of a
>bad neighborhood. How bad? sez I, remembering some of the neighborhoods
>I've seen in Chicago and Oakland.  Worst in the city, the agent sighs,
>and then he told me this amazing story.
>
>    Every few years, it seems, the big vice-gangs in Los Angeles notice
>that there's no gang presence in Phoenix -- which is just a quick
>5-hour drive from LA -- and get the idea of setting up a subsidiary
>there. Well, a couple years ago, the colonizing force came to this
>neighborhood -- it being poor and Spanish, they figured they could move
>right in and take over -- bought this house and started operations.
>Unfortunately for them, the neighbors not only didn't like this -- they
>didn't care for whores trotting up and down their streets all night,
>pimps soliciting their kids, dope- deals on the corners in broad
>daylight, and so on -- they weren't afraid to do something about it.
>The neighbors called the cops (for some reason, the Phoenix police are
>remarkably honest, capable, polite and prompt), and the cops promptly
>came and swept up all the whores, pimps and pushers off the street and
>away to jail. The remaining gang members decided to retaliate in the
>fashion they usually use in LA; they got the complainant's name and
>address off the court records, and did a drive-by shooting at his
>house.  Well, this wasn't Los Angeles. The moment the neighbors heard
>the first gunshots fired, they all ran out their front doors with their
>own guns -- rifles, shotguns, pistols, everything -- and shot back.
>
>    The car didn't make it to the end of the block. It coasted to a
>stop, riddled with more holes than the famous Bonnie and Clyde getaway
>car (which I've seen; it's on display in a casino in a casino in Las
>Vegas).  The gas tank and fuel lines had been ruptured, so the car
>caught fire. The neighbors waited a good 15 minutes -- making sure
>nobody got out of that car -- before they called the fire department to
>come put out the fire and tow the wreck away. By that time, the asphalt
>under the car had melted and caught fire too, which subsequently left a
>large and nasty pot-hole in the street. The city is slow about
>repairing small streets, so the hole stayed there providing a traffic
>hazard for several months. All this was two years ago, the agent
>concluded, and there's been no trouble since, but the house and the
>neighborhood still have a bad reputation -- and that's why the house
>was so cheap.
>
>    Hearing this story, I nearly laughed my ass off. I told the agent
>that if I had the money at the moment, I'd by-god buy the house; this
>was _nothing_ compared to bad neighborhoods I'd seen here in
>California, where drive-by shootings go unchecked by the well-armed
>cops, let alone by the unarmed neighbors. If that's the absolute worst
>you'll find in Phoenix, then that's the city for me.
>
>    That's the difference that an armed civilian population makes.
>Think about it.
>
>
>--
>Mike Van Pelt                                When guns are outlawed,
>mvp@netcom.com                               only Carl Rowan will have guns.
>mvp@hsv3.lsil.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: strait@cheetah.csl.uiuc.edu (Jeffrey C. Strait)
Subject: Re: Who's next?  Mormons and Jews?
Organization: The University of Illinois
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cheetah.csl.uiuc.edu
In article <1r24bv$dif@apple.com>, earlw@apple.com (Earl Wallace) writes:
> >The Koreshians rubbed themselves out.  Neither Mormons nor Jews have a
> >propensity for dousing themselves with kerosene, so I'm not particularly
> >concerned.  (Or shall we blame Jim Jones on the government also?)
> >...
It is silly to make this statement.  Fifteen minutes after the fire
started, the "official word" out of FBI  headquaters in DC was
that the DV's committed suicide.  It would seem logical that the
lantern story has more credibility.  You can't even to pretend to
know for sure what happened... although Clinton is doing just that.
--
| Jeff Strait                       | strait@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu        |
| University of Illinois            | PHONE: (217) 333-6444            |
| Impeach Klinton                                                      |
From: popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich)
Subject: Re: Change of name ??
In-Reply-To: gs26@prism.gatech.EDU's message of 20 Apr 93 17:46:10 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 11
>What does this <censored> from NORWAY think he's doing telling us
>how to run the place?  I wanna know... somebody please 'splain.
>
>Guess how NORWAY survived the Third Reich?  Give you a hint,
>it wasn't by passive resistance the way the Danes did it....
I believe it had something to do with a politician whose name isn't
exactly the most complimentary word nowadays...one Vidkun Quisling.
We all know what a quisling is, right?  I'm sure everyone can come up
with a few examples right about now :->.
-Steve
From: meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Subject: Re: That silly outdated Bill (was Re: Koresh and Miranda)
Organization: N/I
Lines: 17
In article <1993Apr15.165952.25970@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
>In article <1qibs0$flk@vela.acs.oakland.edu> awesley@vela.acs.oakland.edu (awesley) writes:
[ ... ]
>>Actually, there was only one confirmed sniper to >die< in Detroit,
>>according to Sauter & Hines, _Nightmare in Detroit, A Rebellion & It's
>
>What sources did Sauter and Hines use?  In Congressional hearings
>later, the newspaper folk admitted that their reports were completely
>wrong.  (Some of their excuses are understandable, while others amount
>to gross negligence.  Then there's their "we lied".)  As far as I
>know, they never did the followup.
This, BTW, is normal behavior for newsie's.  The followup isn't "news" ...
--------
"I am pleased to accept Life Membership in the National Rifle Association
and extend to your organization every good wish for continued success."
-- President John F. Kennedy, March 20, 1961
From: jdw@unislc.slc.unisys.com (James Warren)
Subject: Re: Reasonable (for criminals?) Civie Arms Limits
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Lines: 27
> In article <1993Apr19.223925.2342@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu writes:
>A poster claims he 'always asks [anti-gunners] what they think would
>be reasonable personal firepower restrictions'. OK then ...
>
>Caliber : Not greater than 32
>Muzzle  : Not greater than 300 ft/lbs with any combo of bullet wt/vel
>Action  : Single shot rifles and single action revolvers
>          Revolvers bearing no more than six rounds and incorporating
>          an 'anti-fanning' mechanism to discourage Roy Rogers wannabes.
>Bullets : Any non-explosive variety, HPs just fine.
>
>Now - these specs leave the 32 H&R magnum as about the most powerful
>allowable civie cartridge for handgun or rifle use. It would be
>reasonably effective against home intruders, muggers, rabid wolves
>and other such nasties, even with the firearm-type limitations. At the
>same time, this caliber/power limit would reduce the ultimate lethality
>of hits.
I suspect that you think that this is less lethal than the typical
"assault weapon".  You are wrong.  Compared to what most criminals use, a
9mm with military ammo (FMJs), or a military rifle (use is extremely
rare), .223 or 7.62mm with military ammo (FMJs), the .32 H&R magnum with
"civie" bullets is more lethal.  Most of the arms which criminals (and
the military) use are among the least lethal arms in existance.
What if we just punish the criminal and leave the law abiding citizen
alone?  It hasn't been tried in recient times, but it might work.
From: barker@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (James Barker)
Subject: NRA address?
Summary: address for NRA - Right to keep and bear anti-tank weapons
Keywords: NRA Waco RKBA
Lines: 41
Could someone email me a USNail address for the NRA? I'd like to write them
a letter encouraging them to see to it VERY EMPHATICALLY that the 2nd
amendment is restored to the form that the founding fathers intended.
People like Howard Metzenbaum seem very intent on diluting the 2nd amendment
to the point where it is no effort for the governmentski to do what they
did in Waco.
After all, from what I know of the Federalist papers, it is this kind of
tyranny the 2nd amendment was supposed to be designed to protect against.
Honestly! M-60 tanks against the civilian population! Attack helicopters!
We need the right to keep and bear anti-tank weapons. Actually, if they
intend to mass armour against the (weakly-armed, at that) civilian population,
we need the right to field tactical nukes. Government tyranny! Who would
have ever thought it would happen here!
I wonder who'se house they'll run tanks through next, because the gov.
SUSPECTS child abuse. Maybe yours! Maybe mine!
And what is an Illegal Weapon (which they have yet to show us), if the
2nd amendment is designed to do what I believe it is, and the gov. uses
tanks against you? Government self-serving? Naaaah. Not here.
Time was when the U.S. used armour/attack helicopters against small countries.
Now, we're down to using them against to what amounts to a busload and a
half of civilians.
"First they came for the Jews, but I did not stop them, because I was
not a Jew: Then they came for the catholics, but I did not stop them
because I was not a catholic! Then they came for the lutherans, but
there was now no one left to stop them!" Rev. Martin Niemoller.
(probably didn't get it verbatim, but you get the idea).
If the NRA reads this, then never mind about the address.
God save us!
--James S. Barker
Portland State University
barker@cs.pdx.edu
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 58
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <C5t38G.IL@news.udel.edu>, roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
> In article <1r1rad$7rl@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
> >In article <C5s0Ds.J54@news.udel.edu>, roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>
>   [The original question was about who started the fire and whether the
>    "madmen" were inside or outside the compound.  To which I replied on
>    the possible sanity level of those inside and outside.]
Was THAT your argument.  Well, you didn't make it very well.  You started
from the questionable premise that the fire was necessarily an act of
insanity, rather than an act of negligence or an accident.  Recall, one
survivor claims that the fire started when a tank knocked over a kerosene
lamp.  Kind of makes arguments regarding relative sanity somewhat moot, no?
> >> According to an Australian documentary made in the year before the stand off
> >> began, Koresh and his followers all believed he was Christ.  Koresh
> >> had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound.
> >> These were the "perfect children" resulting from the "great seed" of
> >> his "magnified horn".  Ex-members describe him in ways not dissimilar
> >> to the way Jim Jones has been described.
> >
> >Point noted.  Have you submitted YOUR faith and sex life for BATF clearance?
> >Better hurry; I believe the deadline was April 15.
>
> I paid my taxes.  There was no reference to sex or religion on the form.
"Nice evasive maneuver, Mr. Chekov, but they're still on our tail."
Let me ask it more plainly.  Which of the above complaints about David
Koresh's religious or sexual proclivities justified an armed raid by the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms?
> >> >:Two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set
> >> >:by cult members.
> >> So, when they talk to the news reporters directly, and relate the same details,
> >> will you believe them?
> >Believe them?  I won't even RECOGNIZE them.  And neither will anyone else
> >who doesn't know them personally.
> Do you believe they would put impostors before the national tv cameras?
It's not entirely far-fetched.  Nobody outside the compound would know
EVERYBODY inside the compound.  Don't forget, the BATF admits having
agents inside the compound, in any case.
> At this point, we are getting conflicting reports from the survivors.
> Best wait til more light is shed upon them.  Of course, this is no
> good if you believe in eternal darkness.
I'm simply being the devil's advocate.  There's reasonable doubt by the
boatload standing in the way of anybody totally swallowing the official
government story on Waco.
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 43
NNTP-Posting-Host: louie.cc.utexas.edu
roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
:mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider) writes:
:
:According to an Australian documentary made in the year before the stand off
:began, Koresh and his followers all believed he was Christ.  Koresh
:had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound.
:These were the "perfect children" resulting from the "great seed" of
:his "magnified horn".  Ex-members describe him in ways not dissimilar
:to the way Jim Jones has been described.
I don't know how accurate the documentary was; however, Koresh was never
convicted of any crimes against children, nor was the BATF after him for
child abuse.  Their purview (in this case) is strictly in firearms violations,
so this information is irrelevant to the discussion.
:FBI agents have to pass rigorous psychological examinations and background
:checks.  Plus, those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain their
:decisions in great detail to congress.  Why would the FBI want to fulfill
:Koresh's own prophecy?
Those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain *something*, but whether
their answers even remotely resembles the truth we may never know.  And who
is left alive to care whether the prophecy is fulfilled?  It only holds
meaning for the nine who survived.
:>Correction:  The *FBI* said that two of the cult members said this; so far,
:>no one else has been able to talk to them.
:
:So, when they talk to the news reporters directly, and relate the same
:details, will you believe them?
*IF* they confirm the story, I probably will.  Definitely not until then,
however.
Mike Ruff
--
- This above all, to thine own      S T R I D E R      mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
-     self be true.  --Polonius     *  * *****    **  *  * **** ***** *** *   *
Those who would sacrifice essential *  *   *     *  * *  * *      *    *  **  *
liberties for a little temporary *  *   *     **** *  * ****   *    *  * * *
safety deserve neither liberty   *  *   *     *  * *  *    *   *    *  *  **
nor safety.  --B. Franklin       ****   *     *  * **** ****   *   *** *   *
From: kennejs@a.cs.okstate.edu (KENNEDY JAMES SCOT)
Subject: Re: Guns GONE. Good Riddance !
Organization: Oklahoma State University
Lines: 63
From article <1993Apr18.000152.2339@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>, by jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu:
> You are loosing.
>
> There is no question about it.
>
> Of those who vote, your cause is considered an abomination. No matter
> how hard you try, public opinion is set against the RKBA.
Only irrational fools such as yourself are set against RKBA.  There are
*plenty* of people who support it.
> This is the end. By the finish of the Clinton administration, your
> RKBA will be null and void. Tough titty.
The government will be overthrown *long* before that happens.  A *huge*
millitia composed of all available men and women who care about their
country will defeat the forces of the evil Klintonistas.  The people
*will* prevail!
Oh, so you think armed citizens alone can't overthrow the government?
Consider this:  do you think *all* law enforcement officials and members
of the Armed Forces will turn against the people that they are entrusted
to serve?  Not hardly.  You can count on a lot of people in the Army,
Marines, Air Force, Navy, National Guard, police officers, and so on
joining in the cause to defend the liberties and freedoms of American
citizens.  COUNT ON IT!  THE GOVERNMENT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DISARM
EVERYONE WITHOUT STARTING A CIVIL WAR!
> You had better discover ways to make do without firearms. The number of
> cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause. There is nothing you
> can do about it. Those who live by the sword shall die by it.
>
> The press is against you, the public (the voting public) is against
> you, the flow of history is against you ... this is it !
>
> Surrender your arms. Soon enough, officers will be around to collect
Wrong again.  People will just hide their guns so these "officers"
(more like jack-booted stormtroopers) will not be able to find them.
> them. Resistance is useless. They will overwhelm you - one at a time.
> Your neighbors will not help you. They will consider you more if an
> immediate threat than the abstract 'criminal'.
They will unless they are idiots.  They will realize that if they don't
then they will be *next* including you.  Believe me if what you describe
happens they will be coming for *more* than guns.  Disarming citizens
would require that everyone's cherished freedoms and liberties be
suspended temporarily.  More likely, they'd never be restored unless the
*people* do something about it.
> Too fucking bad. You have gone the way of the KKK. Violent solutions
> are passe'. Avoid situations which encourage criminals. Then you will
> be as safe as possible. Such as it is ...
Scott Kennedy,  Brewer and Patriot
Before:  "David Koresh is a cheap thug who interprets
the Bible through the barrel of a gun..."  --ATF spokesman
After:   "[The ATF] is a cheap thug who interprets
[the Constitution] through the barrel of a gun..."  --Me
From: kennejs@a.cs.okstate.edu (KENNEDY JAMES SCOT)
Subject: Re: 2ND AMENDMENT DEAD - GOOD !
Organization: Oklahoma State University
Lines: 49
From article <1993Apr18.001319.2340@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>, by jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu:
> Yea, there are millions of cases where yoy *say* that firearms
> 'deter' criminals. Alas, this is not provable. I think that that
> there are actually *few* cases where this is so.
It certainly is provable.  Around a million Americans every year defend
themselves with firearms.  In many of these cases the defender doesn't even
have to fire a shot!  The mere presence of a gun is oftentimes all the
deterrent that is needed.
I don't like violence anymore than anyone else does.  But, taking away the
right of Americans to keep and bear arms is not the solution to the violent
crime problem in this country.  If honest, law-abiding citizens are unable
to get firearms then they will be preyed on even more by criminals who will
be able to acquire guns through illegal channels.  Expect to start seeing
the crime syndicates who smuggle drugs into this country start smuggling
guns.  Believe me this will happen.  There is *plenty* of economic
incentive for gangsters to illegaly import guns into this country if guns
should be banned by the Klintonistas.
> The bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary
> opponents ... those who posessa a cool jakcet you want, those who
> would argue with you about a parking space, those who would
> take your woman. In short, trivial and worthless causes.
Statistics, por favor?
> Too much of this has ruined you cause. There is no recovery.
> In the near future, federal martials will come for your arms.
> No one will help you. You are more dangerous, to their thinking,
> than the 'criminal'. This is your own fault.
See my previous post.  That ought to set you straight.
> The 2nd amendment is dead. Accept this. Find another way.
People have the right to keep and bear arms no matter what the
Constitution says.  That means that even if the 2nd Amendment is
repealed the *people* (that's all American citizens FYI) will *still*
have the right to keep and bear arms.
Scott Kennedy,  Brewer and Patriot
Before:  "David Koresh is a cheap thug who interprets
the Bible through the barrel of a gun..."  --ATF spokesman
After:   "[The ATF] is a cheap thug who interprets
[the Constitution] through the barrel of a gun..."  --Me
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 89
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <C5spov.LrE@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
writes:
> In article <1r0qsrINNc61@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De
Arras) writes:
> >In article <C5s0Ds.J54@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
> >writes:
> >> I agree that they deserved a trial.  They had more than 40 days to come
> >> out and get their trial.  They chose to keep the children with them and
> >> to stay inside.  They chose to stay inside even after they were tear
gassed.
> >> I do not find these actions rational.  Even Noriega was smart enough to
> >> give up and go for the trial he deserved.
> >>
> >
> >Mr. Roby, you are a government sucking heartless bastard.
>
> Unworthy of comment.
But apparently true.  My opinion, only, of course.
>
> >Humans died
> >yesterday, humans who would not have died if the FBI had not taken the
> >actions
> >they did.  That is the undeniable truth.  I cried for them.
>
> Nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty.
> That is undeniable truth.
No, it is not.  It is possible the FBI planned for this to happen, and the
gunfire heard was the FBI keeping the folks inside.  I'm not proposing this as
the way it went down, but just to point out that it's not "undeniable" that if
they walked out yesterday, they would be alive today.
> My heart bleeds just as much as yours for
> the children who were never released given 51 days of ample opportunities
> to do so.  My heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion
> to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up
> and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning.
>
My heart "bleeds" for no one.  You are the "bleeding heart".  And I'm sure
beyond any possible doubt that you do not feel for those people as I do.  You
can not say the heartless things you have said if you did.
> >You seem to say
> >they got what they deserved.
>
> I do not think this.  However, if they did set the fire (which started in
> more than one place and spread very quickly), then they got what they
> wanted and put into motion themselves.
"they got what they wanted".  What kind of creature are you that you can
believe this?
>
> I see the BATF is going to be investigated by the Justice Dept. and likely
> by Arlen Spectre and congress.  This is good.  They have bungled the affair
> from the start.
>
We agree on this.  Now lets have your God, the FBI, investigated, too.
> >Jim
> >--
> >jmd@handheld.com
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't
rethought
> >that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
> >"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was
landed
> >in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
> >WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
>
>
> --
>
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: yoony@aix.rpi.edu (Young-Hoon Yoon)
Subject: Re: Boston Gun Buy Back
Nntp-Posting-Host: aix.rpi.edu
Lines: 27
mpetro@brtph126.bnr.ca (Myron Petro P030) writes:
>>Ron Miller wrote:
>>When you ask the question of the "authorities" or sponsors of buyback
>>programs whether they will check for stolen weapons and they answer
>>"no, it's total amnesty".
> (good point about registration schemes being used only for harassment deleted)
> I would also like to point out that this is receiving stolen property and is
>no different than a pawn shop owner doing the same thing.
>
>
>	Myron Petro
>	NRA, USPSA
>        DVC y'all
>	**************************************************************************
>	 The opinions included in this post are my sole responsibility.
>	 And are protected by the First Amendment and guarnteed by the
>	 Second Amendment.
An interesting idea consider:
At any locality where a buy-back program is being instituted, get a list
of guns they received and compare serial numbers with a list of stolen guns
and sue the people responsible for the program if those guns were destroyed.
Criminal charges can also be made.( Receiving stolen property, destruction of
private property etc.)
Subject: Is it really apples to apples?  (Lawful vs. unlawful use of guns)
From: kim39@scws8.harvard.edu (John Kim)
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center
Nntp-Posting-Host: scws8.harvard.edu
Lines: 30
I have been convinced of the right of AMericans to an effective
self-defense, but something strikes me as odd among the
pro-RKBA arguments presented here.
The numbers comparing hundreds of thousands (indeed, even a
million) of instances of law abiding citizens deterring
criminal activity, seem valid to me.  Likewise the number
of gun-caused homicides each year (about 11,000/year?).  However,
it is surprising that the "Evil AntiGun Empire " (Darth Vader
breathing sound effect here) never tries to compare
"All legitimate gun defenses" vs. "All gun crimes."  Instead,
it's always "All legitimate gun defenses,"  which includes
cases in which the criminals are shot but not killed, and
cases in which the criminal is not here, vs. just
criminal gun homicides, which only includes case sin which
the victim died.
Why is this?  Of course, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say
that in each crime already measured (involving guns), the
consequnces are already known and it is safe to assume that
a gun-based bank robbery last week will not suddenly turn
into a gun-basd robbery+homicide.  Whereas in the legitimate
gun defenses, one may assume that all those criminals who
were deterred would have committed more crime or more
serious crimes had they not been deterred.
-Case Kim
kim39@husc.harvard.edu
From: jim.wray@yob.sccsi.com (Jim Wray)
Subject: My Gun is like my Ame
Organization: Ye Olde Bailey BBS - Houston, TX - 713-520-1569
Lines: 23
Reply-To: jim.wray@yob.sccsi.com (Jim Wray)
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
Mark Wilson responding to C.D. Tavares:
MW>|So the laws exist, and the penalties are as you say, but nobody is ever
MW>|prosecuted under these laws.  They are "traded away" for easy pleas.
MW>Having such gun laws on the books is still better than nothing.
MW>What would the DA have traded away in order to get the guilty plea if the
MW>gun law had not been in effect.
Our liberty?
Right...don't even think about enforcing the law and imposing the prescribed
penalty....let's hose the citizens instead.
---
. OLX 2.2 . Madness takes its toll - please have exact change
----
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Ye Olde Bailey BBS   713-520-1569 (V.32bis) 713-520-9566 (V.32bis)     |
|   Houston,Texas          yob.sccsi.com       Home of alt.cosuard       |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 66
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <93105.215548U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> Jason Kratz
<U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
> In article <1993Apr15.202811.29312@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>,
> andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) says:
> >
> >>I have been at a shooting range where
> >>gang members were "practicing" shooting.
> >
> >How do "we" know that they were gang members and not undercover cops
> >or even law-abiding menacing minorities.  BTW - Why the sneer quotes?
> >
> "We" know because the area that the gun shop/shooting range is in is right on
> the border of the west side of Chicago.  That is a gang infested area.  There
> are many, many bad things going on in that area.  Also, I have several
friends
> that live very close to that area who have had problems with some of these
> folks.  By the way, where did I say that they were minorities?
That was what I got from your phrasing, too.  Well, then, were they (the ones
you saw) black?  You don't deny seem to deny it, either.
> Do you think
> that only minorities have gangs?  Not so.  As far as the quotes are concerned
> it was totally obvious that they weren't just practicing for marksmanship.  I
> don't know about you but I have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship
by
> taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting.
That is the recommended way to practice with a CCW, too.  Aim alone is no good
for defense, if you can't get the gun rapidly.
>  If
> you would have been there Andy it would've been obvious to you too.
What, outside of prejudice, would have made it obvious?
> Of course
> it might not have been.  Who knows.  All I do know is that I was there, I
live
> here and I know that they were gang bangers.  When you live here long enough
it
> becomes pretty easy to spot them via gang colors, gang signs, etc.
Yes, prejudice is more subtle in the north, isn't it?
> One last
> thing.  My sister is a social worker.  She makes it her point to find these
> things out (gang signs, colors, etc) because it is in her best interest to do
> so.  She is nice enough to let me know these things so I can watch out for
> myself as I live right on the border of the west side of the city. Enough
said.
>
More than enough.  I understand you completely.
> Jason
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: scottj@magic.dml.georgetown.edu (John L. Scott)
Subject: Luser!
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
X-Posted-From: iamac-1.dml.georgetown.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu
Lines: 112
Awesley wrote:
That was the entire point to *you*.  What exactly did I claim?
--------------------------------------------------
"I've heard eye-witness descriptions of tanks using their main guns
to respond to sniper fire.  Quite effectively."
--------------------------------------------------
I wasn't wrong . . . I've heard those descriptions.  If you're
paying attention, I've mentioned that I saw the tanks with my own
eyes, but the main gun firing was an account I heard.  That helps
people judge whether or not to kick in the, to use your words,
"bullshit filters".  Stating that I *claimed* this is a falsehood.
Later in the same post:
Another part of my memories was that while most damaged building
were burnt, some were in rubble.  Based on what I remember, I was and
am inclined to believe an old sarge or two.
Fine, *now* you are stating that you believe their claims (or that you are
"inclined" to.  See below for a stronger statement of your beliefs).  Those
claims are still ludicrous, however.
Previously Awesley had written:
You can also read of the troops using grenade launchers.
Prompting me to write:
To fire fragmentary grenades?  I doubt that as well.  To fire concussion
grenades?  Perhaps.  To fire tear gas?  Certainly.  But you would be
perfectly willing to let us believe they fired frags, wouldn't you, since
it makes your other claim seem more plausible.
To which Awesley replied:
John, again, strawman techniques.  Do you feel you're losing it so you
have to stretch what I said and knock that down?  What I read said
nothing about what they fired.  And so I put nothing in there.  If you
need some help, let me know and I'l take your side of this for a
while.  You're not scoring here, you're boring here.
But why did you mention grenade launchers at all?  Because it supports the
notion that the tanks shelled buildings.  And it supports that notion
because it conjures images of troops launching fragmentary grenades.  But
that too is ludicrous.
I wrote:
If tanks had fired their main guns in Detroit, people would have been
screaming about it for the past two and half decades.  I would know about
it.
Awesley relied:
Glad to know you're such an expert.  Nice to hear some an
authority.  I especially appreciate your basis of knowledge -- if it
had happened, you would have know it.  Since you are such an
authority, you probably know that people did scream about an alleged
massive cover-up in the number of people killed in the Detroit riot.
Some claimed 100+ dead, others said 300.  The offical number is 43 but
the Concise Columbia Encyclopedia says it was "several".  I've also
heard some things about that but I won't dare repeat them.  You'd
assert that I claimed they were truth.
Yes, if it happened I would have heard about it.  Everybody would have.
Army tanks don't fire their cannons in American cities in the 1960's
without it becoming common knowledge, without minority leaders seizing on
it and condemning it over and over again, without civil libertarians saying
"this has gone far enough."  So, yes, my never hearing of it was the basis
for my disbelieving the claim.  Now I have more reasons to disbelieve it.
Not one poster has written to say, yes, I lived in Detroit at that time and
everybody knew that the tanks had fired shells.  This is the UseNet.  If it
had happened, somebody here would remember it.  Furthermore, your own
research failed to come up with any support for the claim.  The claim is
extraordinary and it has no supporting evidence, extraordinary or not.
Unless you count the brags of a couple of guardsmen shooting the shit.  I
do not.
I wrote:
Unless you also claim that the National Guard managed to cover it up.
Awesley wrote:
Taking the tour after the riots, it was pretty easy to tell the
difference between Army and Guard troops.  Or so I recall from 26
years ago.  And I seem to recall it was the Army running the tanks.
So it would have been an Army cover-up.
Quibble.  Fine, it was an Army cover-up.  Six years in the Reserves has
taught me the difference also.  But do you think that in two and half
decades not one guilt-ridden participant has come forward and said "yes, I
shelled Americans," or "I gave the orders to fire the cannons," or "I
helped cover it up"?
I wrote:
If your mind is open enough to believe that, well, good for you.  I
prefer
to live in reality.   And here in reality, I find it hard to believe that
those tanks even had any shells, much less fired them.
Awesley replied:
Given the level in destruction in Detroit, I'm quite willing to believe
that they did fire their guns.
Good.  Then we can drop the junk about you not claiming that they did.
Your belief fails a basic reality check: why isn't it known?
Awesley concludes:
Now then, we've bored the shit out of anyone whose bothered to read
this far and all you've managed to say is that you don't believe the
account I cited.
Actually, now we have established that I don't believe what you believe, as
well as why I don't believe it.  And if it's boring, then I yield the last
word to you, if you want it.  You may say anything you like with
impunity--I am dropping the subject.
--John L. Scott
From: scottj@magic.dml.georgetown.edu (John L. Scott)
Subject: Apology (was: Luser!)
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
X-Posted-From: iamac-1.dml.georgetown.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu
Lines: 10
I was shocked to see that the subject of my last rely to awesley was
"Luser!"  That was certainly not my intention.  I meant to leave the
subject line unchanged.  I believe that the NNTP server I use at columbia
must have put in that subject line in protest over problems with my header.
That was rather rude of them, but beggars can't be choosers, I suppose.
In any case, I didn't do it and I apologize to awesley for the apparent
insult.
--John L. Scott
From: rubinoff+@cs.cmu.edu (Robert Rubinoff)
Subject: Re: Gritz/JBS/Liberty Lobby/LaRouche/Christic Insitute/Libertarian/...
Nntp-Posting-Host: spino.soar.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 15
In article <93105.230230U23590@uicvm.uic.edu> <U23590@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>Note that Bo Gritz was on the Populist party ticket with David
>Duke (for veep) in 1988 until he found out that Duke was leading
>he ticket, when he withdrew his candidacy.  So Gritz gave up his
>chance to be Vice President of the US just to aviod supporting
>Duke.
I'd hardly call that "giving up his chance to be Vice President of the US";
the chance of the Populist Party ticket winning is essentially nil.  Still,
it does imply that he doesn't want to be associated with Duke.
Robert
From: mjp@austin.ibm.com  (Michael Phelps)
Subject: Re: Is it really apples to apples?  (Lawful vs. unlawful use of guns)
Originator: mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com
Reply-To: mjp@vnet.ibm.com (Michael J. Phelps)
Organization: IBM Kingston NY
Lines: 51
In article <1993Apr16.092618.22936@husc3.harvard.edu>,
kim39@scws8.harvard.edu (John Kim) writes:
|> I have been convinced of the right of AMericans to an effective
|> self-defense, but something strikes me as odd among the
|> pro-RKBA arguments presented here.
|>
|> The numbers comparing hundreds of thousands (indeed, even a
|> million) of instances of law abiding citizens deterring
|> criminal activity, seem valid to me.  Likewise the number
|> of gun-caused homicides each year (about 11,000/year?).  However,
|> it is surprising that the "Evil AntiGun Empire " (Darth Vader
|> breathing sound effect here) never tries to compare
|> "All legitimate gun defenses" vs. "All gun crimes."  Instead,
|> it's always "All legitimate gun defenses,"  which includes
|> cases in which the criminals are shot but not killed, and
|> cases in which the criminal is not here, vs. just
|> criminal gun homicides, which only includes case sin which
|> the victim died.
|>
|> Why is this?  Of course, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say
|> that in each crime already measured (involving guns), the
|> consequnces are already known and it is safe to assume that
|> a gun-based bank robbery last week will not suddenly turn
|> into a gun-basd robbery+homicide.  Whereas in the legitimate
|> gun defenses, one may assume that all those criminals who
|> were deterred would have committed more crime or more
|> serious crimes had they not been deterred.
I think its an attempt to show lives_saved v lives_lost; all other
gun related crimes don't result in lives_lost.  On the other hand,
its impossible to know how many of the successful self defenses
prevented lives from being lost.  In other words, the lives_lost
is pretty clear [its the homicide and non negligent manslaughter
number], while the lives saved is some percentage of the successful
self defenses.  Clearly that percentage doesn't have to be real
high to show that lives_saved > lives_lost.
As a semi-related point, check out Kleck's "Point Blank".  I believe
it goes into some related areas; it also is well written and informative.
|>
|> -Case Kim
|>
|> kim39@husc.harvard.edu
|>
--
Michael Phelps, (external) mjp@vnet.ibm.com ..
(internal) mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com .. mjp at kgnvmy
(and last but not least a disclaimer)  These opinions are mine..
From: crrob@sony1.sdrc.com (Rob Davis)
Subject: Re: Insane Gun-toting Wackos Unite!!!
Summary: backcountry
Distribution: na
Lines: 16
fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary @ University of Colorado, Boulder):
>I don't know about animal attacks, but there are 23,500 murders
>each year and under 500 die in the manner you suggest. If only
>2.1% of the murders were killings by "wacko"s, you would be
>wrong. Worse, there are also 102,500 rapes and 1,055,000 aggravated
>assaults each year. These numbers make violent attacks, and
>preventing them, thousands of times more significant than the
>accidents you are worried about.
These stats are invalid; we're talking BACKCOUNTRY. These stats for
rapes/assaults/deaths do not represent the backcountry singularly; the
great majority represent urban incidents. You should have pointed this out.
-Rob
From: jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu (John Lawrence Rutledge)
Subject: Re: Some more about gun control...
Organization: Interactive Media Group - University of Massachusetts at Lowell
Lines: 146
In article <1993Apr16.010235.14225@mtu.edu>, cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter) writes:
-> > This mention of a well regulated militia is what confuses me.  According
-> > to the Federalist Paper's, a well regulated militia has a well defined
-> > structure and follows nationally uniform regulations.
->
-> Perhaps you should actually READ the Federalist Papers!!
Perhaps you should, reread Federal 29 which deals exclusively with the
"well regulated malitia."  Here is what is says about its character:
To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes
of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through
military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to
acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the
character of a well-regulated militia,
It also talks about the "well regulated militia" having a nationally
uniform in structure and disipline.
I will note you did quote the end of this particular paragraph which states:
Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with
respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed
and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it
will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of
a year.
But, do you knew how much organization is required to training a large
group of poeple twice a year.  Just to try to get the same people
every year, provide a basic training to new people so they can
be integrated into the force, and find a suitable location, it
requires a continually standing committee of organizers.
Since a well regulate militia is nationally uniform in structure and
disipline, and meet once or twice a year to train, how can you claim
a "well regulated militia" is not well organized.  But I will concide
a "well organized militia" is not necessarily a "well regulated militia."
Several people have stated that the "well organized militia" is
what is defined under 10 USC 311, which states
The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in
section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are,
or who have made a declaration of intention to become,
citizens of the United States and of female citizents of
the United States who are commissioned officers of the
National Guard.
This deos define the militia, but were is the adjective "well regulated."
10 USC 311 does not define a "well regualed militia" in any way, shape,
or form.  It only defines who can become part of a well regulated militia
The Federalist Papers CLEARLY define the "well regualed militia" as a
proper SUBSET of the militia.  In the same paragraph quoted above, it
talk above "disciplining all the militia of the United States" so they
fit the "character of a well-regulated militia."  This is what the
paragraph states about the associated costs:
It would form an annual deduction from the productive labor
of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the
present numbers of the people, would not fall far short
of the whole expense of the civil  establishments of all
the States. To attempt a thing which would abridge the
mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent,
would be unwise: and the experiment, if made, could not
succeed, because it would not long be endured.
Another quote provide by Charles Scripter is:
James Madison, Federalist Paper 41 (regarding the "General Welfare" clause):
"Nothing is more natural nor common than first
to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a
recital of particulars."
So the phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall
not be infringed" must either qualify or explain the phrase "a well
regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state."
The definition of "explain" as stated in "The American Hertitage
Dictionary of the Enlish Language" The New College Edition, 1982 is:
1) To make plain or comprehensible; remove obscruity from;
elucidate: "It was the economists who undertook to explain
this puzzle"
2) To define; explicate; expound: He explained his plan.
3) To offer reasons for or a cause of; an answer for' justify:
explain an error
The second phrase clearly does not "explain" the first, therefore
the second phrase must "qualify" the first.  The definition given
for "qualify" is:
1) To describe by enumerating the characteristics or qualities
of; characterize.
2) To make competent or suitable for office, position, or
task.
3) To give legal power to; make legally capable.
4) To modify, limit, or restrict, as giving exceptions.
5) To make less harsh or severe; moderate
6) Grammar: To modify the meaning of (a word or phrase)
Since "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" does not describe, modify or make less harsh anything and
it has nothing to do with grammar or some sort of position or task.
By process of elimination it must fall into definition #3.  And since
#3 deals with legal power, the same thing the Constitution does, it
must be the correct definition in this case.  Therefore, "the right
of the people to keep and bear Arms" gives legal power to the "well
regualated militia" and this legal power "shall not be infringed".
I thank you very much Mr Scripter, you have provided me with more
evidence that the Second Amendment only concerns itseft with the
people's right to form well regulate militia, and says very little
about the right of an untrained person to "keep and bear" a .50 caliber
machine gun.  And since I, totally untrained in the use of any firearm
(something I personly have meant to correct by going to a NRA gun
safety course and joining a gun club), cannot legally buy such a machine
gun, I conclude the courts and democraticly elected congress agree with
me.
-> So now we know which category Mr. Rutledge is in; He means to destroy
-> our Liberties and Rights.
I mean "to destory our Liberties and Rights."  Is that why a participate
in the discussion of exactly what "our Libertues and Rights" are?  I
force my version of "our Liberties and Rights" by begining statements
of what "our Liberties and Rights" with "All that the Second Amendment
clearly states to me."   Using expressions, such as "states to me,"
clearly mean I intend to force my views on others?  I don't think so.
So in effort not to force my views and not "to destory our Liberties and
Rights,"  I state that nothing I have written, or will write, in
the matter of "Liberties and Rights" is the final word.  For I am only
one person among many and the final word on "Liberties and Rights" cleary
and irrevocably belongs to the many.
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
|                             |  "If only it were a modern document, with a   |
| John Lawrence Rutledge      | smart index and hyper links stretching all    |
| Research Assistant          | through the world data net.  It was terribly  |
|                             | frustrating to flip back and forth between    |
| Interactive Media Group     | the pages and crude flat illustrations that   |
| Computer Science Department | never even moved.  Nor were there animated    |
| UMass - Lowell              | arrows or zoom-ins.  It completely lacked a   |
| 1 University Ave.           | for sound.                                    |
| Lowell, MA 01854            |  "Most baffling of all was the problem of new |
|                             | words...  In normal text you'd only have to   |
| (508) 934-3568              | touch an unfamiliar word and the definition   |
| jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu     | would pop up just below."                     |
|                             |                    from David Brin's "Earth"  |
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
From: ernie@ferris (Ernest Smith)
Subject: Re: Handgun Restrictions
Originator: ernie@ferris
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: ferris.cray.com
Organization: Cray Research Superservers,  Inc.
Distribution: usa
>To: bbs.billand@tsoft.net
>Subject: Re: Handgun Restrictions
>Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
>In-Reply-To: <ow522B2w165w@tsoft.net>
>Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>
In article <ow522B2w165w@tsoft.net> you write:
>I would like to know what restrictions there are on purchasing handguns
>(ie waiting periods, background check etc..) in the states of Nevada and
>Oregon. Thanks.
>                                                -Bill
>
>--
>Bill Anderson (bbs.billand@tsoft.net)
In Oregon your must get a background check (ie fingerprints, full slap), 15
day waiting period. That is unless you have a CCW then all requirments
have been meet.
Ernie Smith
ernie@oregon.cray.com
From: crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com (Ron Phillips)
Subject: Re: Armed Citizen - April '93
Nntp-Posting-Host: hound
Reply-To: crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com
Organization: "Intergraph Electronics, Mountain View, CA"
Distribution: usa
Lines: 30
In article <1993Apr13.162304.16721@lds.loral.com>, kendall@lds.loral.com (Colin Kendall 6842) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr5.164728.10847@dazixco.ingr.com> crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com writes:
|> >
|> >THE ARMED CITIZEN
|> >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|> >Mere presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents
|> >crime in many instances, as shown by news reports sent to The
|> >Armed Citizen.
|>
|> Perhaps so, but note that of the accounts cited, there was only
|> one in which no shot was fired. Of the other twelve, five
|> described cases in which the assailant was wounded by a shot,
|> and six described cases in which the assailant was killed by a
|> shot.
And, had not these citizens accepted the moral responsibility to
protect their own lives, there could well have been at least
13 innocent victims lying dead and several criminals still out
walking the streets perpetrating their crimes on others.
--
**************************************************************
* Ron Phillips               crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com *
* Senior Customer Engineer                                   *
* Intergraph Electronics                                     *
* 381 East Evelyn Avenue               VOICE: (415) 691-6473 *
* Mountain View, CA 94041              FAX:   (415) 691-0350 *
**************************************************************
From: graham@cs.washington.edu (Stephen Graham)
Subject: Re: Some more about gun control...
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
In article <1qicep$obf@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.232806.18970@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, graham@cs.washington.edu (Stephen Graham) writes:
>> In article <1qhpcn$b12@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>> >As far as "John Q. Public with a gun," the Supreme Court has already
>> >ruled in cases such as US v. Miller (307 U.S. 175 (1939)), and US v.
>> >Verdugo-Urquidez (110 S. Ct. 1839 (1990)) that that is EXACTLY what
>> >the amendment protects.  This interpretation can be found as far back
>> >as the Dred Scott case, in 1857.
>>
>> It's worth noting that US vs. Miller sustained Miller's conviction
>> of possession of an illegal firearm, noting that a sawed-off shotgun
>> was not a proper militia weapon.
>
>No, they noted that no one had CLAIMED that it was a proper militia
>weapon (despite having been used in at least two wars).  This was true,
>since neither Miller nor his lawyer appeared before the Court.
Did they or did they not sustain Miller's conviction? I don't have the
text of the case handy.
Yes, shotguns had been used in WWI, the Spanish-American War, and the
US Civil War. That was not in question. The possession of a sawed-off
shotgun was, i.e., a weapon altered to improve concealibility.
>> Therefore, US vs. Miller supports limited government regulation of
>> firearms.
>
>Don't go arguing down this road unless you are willing to abide by
>the consequences that you find at the end of it -- mainly, that the
>law-abiding common man has a right to own any weapon that has a militia
>purpose, from handguns to sawed-off shotguns and fully automatic weapons.
>That, in fact, is what this decision says.
You are free to produce evidence that I'm not willing to abide with
all the implications of this.
Just because I don't whole-heartedly endorse the NRA position does not
mean that I oppose the RKBA. This attitude is what makes the NRA
unpopular.
--
Stephen Graham
graham@cs.washington.edu	 uw-beaver!june!graham
From: fjk6478@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Fred)
Subject: Re: Luser!
Nntp-Posting-Host: vaxc.isc.rit.edu
Reply-To: fjk6478@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
>
>Actually, now we have established that I don't believe what you believe, as
>well as why I don't believe it.  And if it's boring, then I yield the last
>word to you, if you want it.  You may say anything you like with
>impunity--I am dropping the subject.
>
>--John L. Scott
How very kind of you!
From: bjones@convex.com (Brad Jones)
Subject: Re: guns in backcountry? no thanks
Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 27
>In article <1qkcok$s9i@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ci946@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John K. Gever) writes:
>|>
>|> Does anybody reading this group have an actual, honest-to-God
>|> experience with violent crime in the backcountry to tell about?
>|>
It was around 1969 in the Shenandoah Valley near Woodstock, Virginia.  Me,
my wife, a friend, his wife, and his 2 kids were hiking in a totally
desolate mountain area.  All of a sudden, large rocks began raining down
on us.  Looking up, we saw at least 3 punks gleefully letting loose rocks
from what was an obvious stash.  They were a couple hundred feet above us.
Meanwhile, the women and kids were screaming and running for cover and the
punks were shrieking with laughter.  Me and my friend yelled for them to
knock it off.  They responded that we should "Get f***ed!".  Me and my
friend drew our pistols and fired a couple of times into the trees above
their heads.  They ran.  With no more 3-5 pound rocks coming at our heads,
we proceeded on our journey.
Sorry, but me and my friend saw no need to let it evolve to a more
"violent" level than we were already experiencing.  I guess we should
have tried harder to understand and cope with the anger that society
had instilled in them and was driving them to do such things.  Guess
that's a cross I'll have to bear.
Brad
From: yoony@aix.rpi.edu (Young-Hoon Yoon)
Subject: Re: Gun Talk -- Legislative Update for States
Keywords: gun talk, ila
Nntp-Posting-Host: aix.rpi.edu
Distribution: usa
Lines: 27
viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
>lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani) writes:
>>IOWA:  All firearm related bills are dead.  Senate File 303
>>dealing with off-duty police officers carrying concealed remains
>>viable.
>	The *POWER* of the word processor and a stamp at work.
>The fact that around here the state rep generally lives no more than
>nine miles from any constituent doesn't hurt, either.
>< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
><  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
><     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
><                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >
Does anyone know the particulars on the Senate File 303?
Does this bill allow or deny off-duty police from carrying concealed?
From what information that I have, Iowa has a discretionary permit policy
on CCW.  If S 303 allows police(off-duty) to carry concealed then I would
be inclined to oppose it.  I don't believe off-duty police officers should
have any more rights than civilians.  If law or policy prevents law-abiding
citizens from being armed for self defense then why should off-duty police
officer be treated any differently.
From: clay@rsd.dl.nec.com (Clay Finley)
Subject: Re: Carrying Arms
Nntp-Posting-Host: rsd21.rsd.dl.nec.com
Organization: NEC America, Radio Software Dept
Distribution: usa
Lines: 22
|> In article <1993Apr5.220457.6800@spdc.ti.com> dwhite@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Dan White) writes:
|>
|> >However, haven't we already lost our right to bear arms?
|>
|> >	It seems that in most states, like Texas, a citizen may own a
|> >gun and carry while at his home or business.  But a citizen is severely
|> >restricted from bearing outside these areas.  Here in Texas you cannot
|> >carry in your car except when "traveling" which is usually defined as
|> >"traveling across a county line."  How did this come about?  Are there
|> >any court rulings on the legality of restricting the carrying of a
|> >weapon outside the home?
|>
In Texas, it is legal to carry handguns while "traveling", and also to and from
sporting activities.           ^^^^^^^^
Chapter 46 of the Texas State Penal Code does NOT restrict long guns.
Therefore, it is legal to carry and transport long guns any place in Texas.
Regards,
Clay
From: mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: louie.cc.utexas.edu
jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:
:An 'edu'er not towing the "party" line, thank you!
:
:Jim
You're welcome!  ;)  Actually, I'm probably something of an outcast, because
I've committed the ultimate college-student heresy:  I'm not a liberal.
(This is NOT liberal-bashing.)
Mike
--
- This above all, to thine own      S T R I D E R      mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
-     self be true.  --Polonius     *  * *****    **  *  * **** ***** *** *   *
Those who would sacrifice essential *  *   *     *  * *  * *      *    *  **  *
liberties for a little temporary *  *   *     **** *  * ****   *    *  * * *
safety deserve neither liberty   *  *   *     *  * *  *    *   *    *  *  **
nor safety.  --B. Franklin       ****   *     *  * **** ****   *   *** *   *
From: <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET>
Followups-to: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH - UPDATE
Distribution: usa
<1993Apr19.202756.6889@msuvx2.memst.edu>
Lines: 11
Ah yes, I see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork
to defend the burning of the children. Probably drooled all over themselves
while watching the TV coverage.
Probably had a few like that in Nazi Germany, as well.
Oh yeah, ATF/FBI now claims, according the the media, that there are
a few survivors. The number seems to vary minute by minute.
From: <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Who's next? Mormons and Jews?
Distribution: world
Lines: 4
As a minor point of interest, earlier news reports claim to have
been quoting the Governor of Texas when Her Holiness referred to
the Dividians as _Mormons_ and called for their expulsion
from TX. Any Texans have details?
From: tomgift@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Gift)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 28
steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu (Jason 'Think!' Steiner) writes:
>> Ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves?  Very popular.
>> Electric stoves outside metro-areas especially.
>oh, i see. electricity is a natural right & our wonderful government
>would -never- cut off the power to the people they were besieging.
>are you really this dumb, or just acting like it for the sake of
>argument?
>jason
No, they didn't have electrical power, but no, I don't find the idea of
Davidians calmly cooking lunch with gas masks on as the FBI knocks the
buildings down very credible,either.
It's not like this whole discussion is relevant.  It started when some-
one made the wholly unsubstantiated allegation that the wood stove ig-
nited NAPALM the FBI shot into the buildings.
I'm not a groveling apoligist for the feds, far from it.  But wild ac-
cusations like this are ridiculous and obfuscate legitimate criticism of
their conduct in this whole affair.
Tom Gift
tomgift@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
From: dduff@col.hp.com (Dave Duff)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH - UPDATE
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Lines: 3
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com
NUT CASE PANICS!!!!REALIZES HE'S MADE A COMPLETE FOOL OF HIMSELF IN FRONT OF
THOUSANDS OF NETTERS!!!!BACKS AWAY FROM EARLIER RASH STATEMENTS!!!!GOD HAVE
MERCY ON HIM!!!!
From: diederic@spot.Colorado.EDU (Andrew Diederich)
Subject: Re: Ax the ATF
Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Lines: 19
>A few comments on the ATF's botched handling of this case:
>Dan S.
And another one:
Hasn't enyone heard of a leader's recon?  This is when the leader of the
assult goes and looks at the objective to see if anything has changed that
would affect the mission.  Even the Freshman cadets here in ROTCland
know about them.  Mostly because they know it as the part where they
lie on the cold ground for an hour or so, but they've heard about it.
Maybe the ATF should have hired out to the local ROTC guys!
--
Andrew Diederich                    diederic@spot.colorado.edu
These opinions are only mine on alternate Tuesdays.
From: gs26@prism.gatech.EDU (Glenn R. Stone)
Subject: Impeach Clinton, Reno
Summary: civil rights violations
Keywords: confession TV
Reply-To: glenns@eas.gatech.edu
Organization: The Group W Bench
Lines: 21
Fact:  Both Janet Reno and Bill Clinton have admitted responsibility,
even grief, over the deaths in Waco.
Fact:  Regardless of who started the fire, there are more than enough
things on tape to make a civil rights case against these two.
Cruel and unusual punishment (dying tortured rabbits on tape?)
come to mind.
Fact:  It is a federal felony to infringe civil rights under color of
law; where death is involved, this offense carries a penalty
of life in prison.
Fact:  Impeachment is allowable for "high crimes and misdemeanors."
Anything that's a federal felony should qualify.
Conclusion:  We have NO CHOICE, if we are an honest people, but to
impeach Mr. Clinton, and remove Reno from office.
Glenn R. Stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu)
wearer of asbestos underoos
From: mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: louie.cc.utexas.edu
cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
:mfrhein@wpi.WPI.EDU (Michael Frederick Rhein) writes:
:
:> As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day
:> in Texas.
:
:Do YOU eat all your food cold?
Thank you for pointing out the obvious to people who so clearly missed it.
I can't stand it when people's first reaction is to defend the aggressor.
Mr. Tavares, you have a unique and thoughtful way of getting to the heart
of the matter, and I thank you for putting it to good use.
Mike Ruff
--
- This above all, to thine own      S T R I D E R      mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
-     self be true.  --Polonius     *  * *****    **  *  * **** ***** *** *   *
Those who would sacrifice essential *  *   *     *  * *  * *      *    *  **  *
liberties for a little temporary *  *   *     **** *  * ****   *    *  * * *
safety deserve neither liberty   *  *   *     *  * *  *    *   *    *  *  **
nor safety.  --B. Franklin       ****   *     *  * **** ****   *   *** *   *
From: mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 31
NNTP-Posting-Host: louie.cc.utexas.edu
irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
:glenns@eas.gatech.edu writes:
:>Hey, gang, it's not about duck hunting, or about dark alleys,
:>it's about black-clad, helmeted and booted troops storming
:>houses and violating civil rights under color of law.
:>
:>Are YOU ready to defend YOUR Constitution?
:
:Its also about crazy fatigue clad survivalist types blasting the
:snot out of people who accidentally stray onto his land in the
:name of 'self defense.'
Well, the count is now at least 86 dead by government action.  How many
have been killed in the last year in the manner you described?  What, no
facts?  Oh, how silly of me; I forgot, you don't like guns, so you don't
need no stinkin' facts.
:Don't get too self-righteous, Mr. gun-toter.
Don't get too smug, Mr. gun-hater.
Mike Ruff
--
- This above all, to thine own      S T R I D E R      mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
-     self be true.  --Polonius     *  * *****    **  *  * **** ***** *** *   *
Those who would sacrifice essential *  *   *     *  * *  * *      *    *  **  *
liberties for a little temporary *  *   *     **** *  * ****   *    *  * * *
safety deserve neither liberty   *  *   *     *  * *  *    *   *    *  *  **
nor safety.  --B. Franklin       ****   *     *  * **** ****   *   *** *   *
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: Who's next? Mormons and Jews?
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <93110.11265034AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET>, <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:
> As a minor point of interest, earlier news reports claim to have
> been quoting the Governor of Texas when Her Holiness referred to
> the Dividians as _Mormons_ and called for their expulsion
> from TX. Any Texans have details?
The Davidians are a 60-year-old splinter from the Seventh Day Adventists,
if that's the information you were looking for.
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <C5tBwr.5xI@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, tomgift@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Gift) writes:
> No, they didn't have electrical power, but no, I don't find the idea of
> Davidians calmly cooking lunch with gas masks on as the FBI knocks the
> buildings down very credible,either.
I don't know how quickly YOU can get a woodstove to heat up from a cold
start, but mine takes about three hours.
> It's not like this whole discussion is relevant.  It started when some-
> one made the wholly unsubstantiated allegation that the wood stove ig-
> nited NAPALM the FBI shot into the buildings.
Mox nix.  The BD's were prepared to provide their own heat and light,
and were doing so for weeks while the power was out.  That means the
compound contained containers of flammable liquids or gases (that could
be busted by a tank intrusion), plus ignition sources, which no one can
tell for sure were all off at the time.
> I'm not a groveling apoligist for the feds, far from it.  But wild ac-
> cusations like this are ridiculous and obfuscate legitimate criticism of
> their conduct in this whole affair.
On the contrary.  We are proposing alternate scenarios.  The people who
are coming to wild conclusions are the feds, who are absolutely positive
how the fire started, even though none of them were in a position to
see it, either (and the stories they "hear" from their prisoners changes
hourly).
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: syck5280@miller.cs.uwm.edu (Steven B Syck)
Subject: WI and IL firearms law Questions
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee
Lines: 39
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.9.13
A couple of questions for you firearms law experts out there:
Question #1
According to the NRA/ILA state firearms lawbook, in Wisconsin it is
'unlawful for any person except a peace officer to go armed* with a
"concealed and dangerous weapon."  There is no statutory provision for
obtaining a lixense or permit to carry a concealed weapon.'
*  Jury instructions indicate that 'to go armed' one must have a firearm
on one's person or within his immediate control and available for use.
Does this mean that open carry is allowed?  If so, just how 'open' does it
have to be?  Would an in the pants holster be considered concealing?  What
if one had their jacket on and it partially covered the weapon?  Also,
is there any way to be allowed to carry concealed, or is it just not allowed,
period?
Question #2
As I understand it, in Evanston, IL, they have a ordinance banning handguns.
Is there any way to get around this provision?  What would the penalty if
you were found out be?  What if you used said handgun in a defensive shooting
in your apartment there?  How would the city law apply to your impending
trial for the shooting?
Also, what is IL state law concerning short barreled weapons?  Short barreled
shotgun is what I would be interested in if a handgun were not available,
either that or a shortened 9mm carbine (ie Colt, Marlin).
One more thing, what is the chance of getting a CCW permit in IL without being
rich or famous or related to the mayor?
Please send replies via E-Mail, as things seem to be piling up around t.p.g
a little faster than I can handle.  Thanks again
-------   Steve Syck        syck5280@miller.cs.uwm.edu        --------
From: mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: louie.cc.utexas.edu
irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
:cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
:>mfrhein@wpi.WPI.EDU (Michael Frederick Rhein) writes:
:>>
:>> As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm
:>> day in Texas.
:>
:>Do YOU eat all your food cold?
:
:Ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves?  Very popular.
:Electric stoves outside metro-areas especially.
Hey, Einstein, ever tried to use an electric stove or microwave WITHOUT
ELECTRICITY?  It's been shut off for weeks now, courtesy of your local FBI
assault squad.
Now, are you going to put your foot in your mouth or shall I get a crowbar
and assist you?
Mike Ruff
--
- This above all, to thine own      S T R I D E R      mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
-     self be true.  --Polonius     *  * *****    **  *  * **** ***** *** *   *
Those who would sacrifice essential *  *   *     *  * *  * *      *    *  **  *
liberties for a little temporary *  *   *     **** *  * ****   *    *  * * *
safety deserve neither liberty   *  *   *     *  * *  *    *   *    *  *  **
nor safety.  --B. Franklin       ****   *     *  * **** ****   *   *** *   *
From: mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider)
Subject: Re: Guns GONE. Good Riddance !
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: louie.cc.utexas.edu
cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
:jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu writes:
:> Surrender your arms. Soon enough, officers will be around to collect
:> them. Resistance is useless.
:
:Don't tell me -- you're the "Borg Warner," right?
HAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  Hee, hee.  <chuckle>
This was absolutely fabulous.  I nearly fell out of my chair laughing.
Wonderful!  Mr. Tavares, my hat is off to you again!
Mike Ruff
--
- This above all, to thine own      S T R I D E R      mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
-     self be true.  --Polonius     *  * *****    **  *  * **** ***** *** *   *
Those who would sacrifice essential *  *   *     *  * *  * *      *    *  **  *
liberties for a little temporary *  *   *     **** *  * ****   *    *  * * *
safety deserve neither liberty   *  *   *     *  * *  *    *   *    *  *  **
nor safety.  --B. Franklin       ****   *     *  * **** ****   *   *** *   *
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <C5t2IC.DC@news.udel.edu>, roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
> >>Please tell me what you think would have happened had the people
> >>come out with their hands up several weeks ago.
> Now will you answer my question up top?
A suggestion: cameras panning over planted automatic weapons, followed by
a show trial and medals all around for the valiant forces of Lawn Order?
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Nntp-Posting-Host: ucsu.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 22
In article <1993Apr20.124518.886@batman.bmd.trw.com> auerbach@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>Women stand up for your right to be just as stupid as men.
Our new Attorney General seems determined to do so. In the past
few days she has said:
She hopes the King beating will not reduce public confidince
in law enforcement.
The tactics of using tear gas and driving tanks through
walls in Waco were intended to further a "peacefull solution"
to the crisis.
Those same tactics were intended to prevent a mass suicide,
but she never expected the sect to react by killing themselves.
It's comforting to know, at least, that she wasn't Clinton's first
choice...
Frank Crary
CU Boulder
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Subject: Raid justification was: Blast them next time
Distribution: usa
Nntp-Posting-Host: zeppelin.convex.com
Organization: The Instrumentality
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 27
In article <1r1chu$h22@pandora.sdsu.edu> chiu@io.nosc.mil (Francis Chiu) writes:
>    Initial assault on the "compound" ( more like a wooden farm house if
>  it burned to the ground like it did ) for WHAT?  Regardless of who
>  started/caused the fire, NONE of this would have happened if the
>  ATF can HONESTLY justify their initial assault and handled it
>  properly!
I just got through listening to the 10 o'clock news on Channel 4 here in
Dallas. They trotted out a list of justifications produced by the ATF after
"months of investigation" for their raid.
I couldn't believe the junk on this list! For example, the BDs were accused
of stockpiling a bunch of "9mm and .223 ammunition that can be used in M15
and M16 assault rifles". Imagine that--they had ammunition!  They also had
aluminum dust! (Yeah, it's a component of thermite, but so far I haven't
heard that it's illegal to take a grinder to the aluminum lawn
furniture...) The only thing on the list that could conceivably have been
illegal was an M-79 grenade launcher. (Anybody know about this?)
Months of investigation! For this 80+ people died!
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: yodicet@gtewd.mtv.gtegsc.com
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH - UPDATE
Distribution: usa
Organization: GTE Govt. Systems, Electronics Def. Div.
Lines: 12
In article <93110.11320334AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET>, <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:
> Ah yes, I see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork
> to defend the burning of the children. Probably drooled all over themselves
> while watching the TV coverage.
>
> Probably had a few like that in Nazi Germany, as well.
>
> Oh yeah, ATF/FBI now claims, according the the media, that there are
> a few survivors. The number seems to vary minute by minute.
>
>
>
From: green@plains.NoDak.edu (Bill Green)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Article-I.D.: ns1.C5tEnu.112F
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network
Lines: 23
Nntp-Posting-Host: plains.nodak.edu
Just to shed some light on the fire, it was widely reported (AP, etc.) that
there WERE several witnesses to BD folks starting the fires.  It has also
been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once, which
rules out a Bradley knocking over a lamp, etc. as the cause.
What I would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident.  I
believe the moves made were right and proper, but I still have some problems
with some of the tactics.  After watching the ABC special on it tonight, as
well as CNN and Nightline, I question some of the ATF and FBI actions.
1) Could it have been possible to have taken Koresh outside the compound at
some time before the Feb. 28th raid?
2) Could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome.
3) Were FBI actions (blaring loudspeakers, etc.) the "right" course of action?
And a few other questions.  Like I said, I believe the actions taken, in
general, were proper.  But I still have some reservations.
One other point, I'm no fan of Janet Reno, but I do like the way she had the
"balls" to go ahead and take full responsibility.  Seems like the waffle boy
had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue.
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Subject: Re: Some more about gun control...
Nntp-Posting-Host: whale.st.usm.edu
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi
Lines: 145
First, I would like to say how much I appreciate having so literate and
erudite an individual as Mr. Rutledge with whom to discuss this topic.
Frankly, most anti-RKBA posters refuse even to approach the topic of
the original understanding of the Bill of Rights as detailed in the
writings of the era. This  is most refreshing.
Second, I must apologize for leaving the discussion for several days.
My brigade's quarterly drill was this weekend and I needed to attend
to several matters pertaining to the State Militia.
Some people seem to feel that the concept of the Militia is an anachro-
nism that is out of place in the 20th century. I'm not sure the Swiss
would agree and I think perhaps a discussion of how the Militia, both
organized and unorganized, fits into the defense plans of my State,
Mississippi. Please do not assume that this describes something peculiar
to one southern state. For instance, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts
has a well organized Militia which, members report, maintains stocks
of both riot guns and machine guns. The laws of other States will vary
but are probably similar.
Title 35  of Mississippi Code defines our Militia as "all able-bodied
citizens of the state between the ages of seventeen (17) and sixty-
two (62) years...". The Militia is divided into 3 classes: The National
Guard, the Mississippi State Guard and the unorganized Militia.  The
National Guard is a strange sort of fish from a Constitutional perspective.
It tries to be both State Militia and Federal Reserve. The discussion
of this "para-constitutional" arrangement is quite interesting in itself
but somewhat beyond the scope of this discussion. Suffice it that, at this
date, the National Guard has ceased to have any Constitutional standing
as anything but a Federal reserve force.
Mississippi, and most other States, maintains a purely State organized
Militia. In Mississippi this is called The State Guard. In other
States it may be called something else. The State Guard exists as
a cadre or training corps made up of mostly experienced officers and
senior NCOs who serve as volunteers without compensation. We drill
on a monthly basis at the company and battalion level, brigade once
a quarter and have an annual drill of the whole organization. Our
State-authorized cadre strength is 694. This is a skeleton of an
organization without any flesh. The muscle and sinew when needed will
come from the unorganized Militia.
In time of invasion, insurrection or calamity the Governor can order
the activation of the State Guard. When this takes place a call will
first be made  for volunteers to fill the organization out to either
its contingency strength of 2194 or full strength of 4910. In the
event that a sufficient number of people fail to volunteer, the law
provides detailed instructions for the conducting of a draft of the
unorganized Militia. The size of the State Guard is not specified by
law, but rather by executive order. At one time, the organized Militia
of Mississippi consisted of 68 regiments. Needless to say, the State
does not have armories brimming with weapons with which to equip such
a force. The historical precedent for arming such a force is by use
of mostly the private arms of the Militiamen.
It is my hope that demonstrates that State Militias are far from being
the long dead anachronisms that some may wish to claim.
>No, I simple stated that the people have a right to "join a well
>organized militia."  And I have also stated that a militia that
>meets once or twice a year is clearly "well organized."  And this
>state of readiness that I have claimed the people have a "right"
>to, is the same state of readiness expected of the militia as stated
>by Hamilton.
Regarding Hamilton: If you take Hamilton's opinion as being the sole
representative of the opinions of the Founding Fathers, you will have
chosen a highly skewed sample set. Hamilton was on the extreme Federalist
end of the political spectrum. Others, such as Coxe and Henry, can
be chosen to represent the other end. Many contemporaries felt that
the idea of having a standing Army of any sort or even a select Militia
or "train bands" were contrary to the egalitarian nature of the govern-
ment they were striving to perfect. The compromise reached was to
provide for a small Army, which had to be refinanced every two years,
and iron-clad protection for the Militia, which was to remain ever,
"terrible and irresistible".
These protections included: State control, not Federal; limitation
of Federal utilization of the Militia (i.e. execute Laws, suppress
Insurrections and repel Invasions), and the Right to Keep and Bear
Arms to prevent what the British had tried to do at Lexington.
These limitations eventually proved so onerous to the Federal Govern-
ment that they were skirted by the creation of the National Guard.
The National Guard was created for one very simple reason: the
Constitutional Militia was had proved too unreliable for fighting
wars of imperial expansion. (e.g. Spanish-American War). The
Constitution provided that the Militia could only be employed by
the Federal government in very limited purposes. As far back as the
War of 1812, Militia units had refused to leave United States
territory to attack the enemy. Further, there was no Constitutional
authorization for any conscription of anyone into the Federal
Military and Militiamen were particularly protected. In all wars until
WW-I every American who left the country under arms was a volunteer.
When the National Guard acts of 1903-1916 required that each new
member also enlist as a reservest in the Army, existing soldiers were
"grandfathered". At least one of these "grandfathered" individuals
refused to go to France in 1918 and his refusal was upheld by the
Federal Courts.
Mr. Rutledge has stated that the Second Amendment applies only to
members of a "well organized" militia. However, the pre-Constitutional
history of the American Militia shows relatively few periods when
The Militia came close to meeting either Messrs. Rutledge or Hamilton's
definition of "well organized". In the period of peace between the
French & Indian War and The Revolution many companies simply stopped
drilling and had to be reconstituted just prior to The Revolution.
Perhaps Mr. Rutledge would care to argue that those of my ancestors
who answered the Lexington alarm had forfeited their rights because
their units didn't drill for a few years in the 1760s. I would not
be so bold.
Again, I wish to repeat. The National Guard, for all its merits, is
not the Militia described by the Constitution  nor by Mr. Hamilton
nor by Mr. Henry nor by Mr. Coxe. The fact that the Federal Government
and many States are delinquent in their attentions to and organizing
of their Constitutional Militias  diminishes neither their
responsibilities nor the rights of the Militia as detailed in the
Constitution.
Misunderstanding of the nature and purpose of the Militia is but one
error that has crept into modern readings of the Constitution. The
Constitution prohibits States from keeping "Troops or Ships of War
in time of Peace". I have heard some insist this prevents States from
maintaining a Militia, but this comes about because people today do not
understand the meanings of the words in their 18th century usage.
Today we call any large vessel a "ship" but in the 18th century the word
described a particular kind of vessel.  A "ship" is a large vessel with
three or more masts each carrying square rigged sails. A "brig" has two
masts. In the contemporary usage the States were prohibited only from keeping
the largest warships of the day, those capable of global operations. Today's
equivalent might be a prohibition on the States' keeping nuclear missiles.
"Troops" at this time meant a full-time professional military organization.
Any study of contemporaneous writings will bear this out.
In at least one respect, I am in agreement with Mr. Rutledge; being
personally involved in the maintenance and advancement of The Militia
as a viable means of defense for a modern society, I am frequently
both bemused and saddened when friends and associates wax poetic on
their place in the unorganized Militia and become strangely silent or
scarce when invited to attend a  drill of their State's Militia.
--
Donald R. Newcomb              * University of Southern Mississippi
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu      * This is the way we tax and spend, tax
dnewcomb@falcon.st.usm.edu     * and spend. We're Democrats in office.
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Riddle me this...
Nntp-Posting-Host: ucsu.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Lines: 12
In article <1993Apr20.050550.4660@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> j979@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (FULLER  M) writes:
>That the gas was "not harmful", as the sensitive, caring Janet Reno described
>it?
Is it? As far as I know, tear gas, especially in large concentrations,
is very dangerous (even toxic) for small children. This makes the
FBI's supposedconcern for the safety of the children seem rather
hypocritical.
Frank Crary
CU Boulder
From: roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Nntp-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 90
In article <1r21g2INNeah@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:
>In article <C5sou8.LnB@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
>writes:
>> In article <1993Apr20.163730.16128@guinness.idbsu.edu> betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
>(Andrew Betz) writes:
>> >In article <C5rynw.Iz8@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
>writes:
>> >>And I suppose the FBI also prevented them from coming out with their
>> >>hands up while national tv cameras watch.
>> >>
>> >Watch from where?  Two miles away?  Far enough away that whatever
>> >really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of
>> >a humiliated agency that said (quote!) "Enough is enough."
>>
>> Please tell me what you think would have happened had the people
>> come out with their hands up several weeks ago.
>>
>It didn't happen.
And who is responsible for it not happening?
Certainly not the children.  Koresh was calling the shots.  He was
talking with his lawyer and the FBI.  Since others were released safely,
there is no sane reason for keeping the children inside the compound.
>> >>scenario that is simplest and most plausible.  I do not generally
>> >>believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely
>> >>scenarios.
>> >
>> >The FBI sent letters to Martin Luther King's wife insinuating
>> >that MLK was having an affair!  Again, please tell us exactly
>> >how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government.
>>
>> More than someone who would not release children from the compound.
>>
>Obviously.  You are an authority worshiper.
Not at all.  Are you a Koresh worshiper?
>> I.e., more than David Koresh/Vernon Howell/"Jesus Christ".
>> I saw lengthy excerpts from an Australian documentary made in
>> 1992 that clearly showed that this was a cult.
>
>Give me a camera, and time with you, and I can present excerpts that show you
>to be a cult leader.  Guarenteed.
Thanks for my laugh of the day!  Definitely a very silly supposition.
>You should at least view the whole
>documentary before you claim it as a source.
I would if I could.  The news show that showed the lengthy excerpts also
had interviews with the filmmaker who made the documentary who basically
confirmed what was shown in the excerpts from the time he spent at the
compound in 1992.
>> I am not pleased with the BATF handling of the affair.  I think they
>> bungled it badly from the start.  But I don't think they are
>> responsible for the fire, which started in two different places.
>
>Two places, eh?  You saw this?  Or did the wonderful FBI tell you this?
>I saw one place.
I believe that this was reported by local radio reporters on site.
A fire started in a three story tower at the same time as the two
story window shown on the tv coverage.
>> >>The BATF is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair.
>> >>But to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is
>> >>ludicrous.
>> >
>> >I suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to
>> >risk small arms fire to get some good footage.  These people
>> >were told to get the hell out of camera range.  Why?
>
>Couldn't answer this one, eh?  This is the most important question of all, it
>is the root cause of all the other suspicion.
I thought about mentioning how Reagan and the military treated the press
in Grenada and how that set the precedent, but decided it wasn't worthy
of discussion.  If the news reporter got shot, you can bet his family
would sue the government for letting him into the danger area.
The root cause of suspicion in my mind is why 100 people wouldn't flee
a building that had numerous exits during the 30 minutes time it took
to burn down.  Or why didn't they flee hours earlier when the tear gas was
first introduced?  I can find no rational explanation for their behavior.
--
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: The Cold War: Who REALLY Won?
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <1993Apr20.220335.9235@linus.mitre.org> glover@tafs2.mitre.org
(Graham K. Glover) writes:
> If one reasons that the United States of America at one time represented
> and protected freedom << individual liberty and personal responsibility >>
> (and I do, in fact, think that this is true) and that totalitarianism <<
> absolute government control and tyranny >> represents freedom's opposite
> (which it does), did the USA really win the cold war?
Of course not.  The USA's only hope is for Yelsen (how ever you spell it) to
fail the referendum, and have the hard-liners take over again.
>
> Standard disclaimers ALWAYS apply!
>
> ----------------
> Graham K. Glover
> ----------------
>
> UNMUTUAL
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Riddle me this...
Nntp-Posting-Host: ucsu.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Lines: 16
In article <1r1lp1INN752@mojo.eng.umd.edu> chuck@eng.umd.edu (Chuck Harris - WA3UQV) writes:
>>If so, why was CS often employed against tunnels in Vietnam?
>CS "tear-gas" was used in Vietnam because it makes you wretch so hard that
>your stomach comes out thru your throat.  Well, not quite that bad, but
>you can't really do much to defend yourself while you are blowing cookies.
I think the is BZ gas, not CS or CN. BZ gas exposure results in projectile
vomiting, loss of essentially all muscle control, inability to concentrate
or think rationally and fatal reactions in a significant fraction of
the population. For that reason its use is limited to military
applications.
Frank Crary
CU Boulder
From: roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Nntp-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 97
In article <1r21vqINNeb8@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:
>In article <C5spov.LrE@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
>writes:
>> In article <1r0qsrINNc61@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De
>Arras) writes:
>> >In article <C5s0Ds.J54@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
>> >writes:
>> >> I agree that they deserved a trial.  They had more than 40 days to come
>> >> out and get their trial.  They chose to keep the children with them and
>> >> to stay inside.  They chose to stay inside even after they were tear
>gassed.
>> >> I do not find these actions rational.  Even Noriega was smart enough to
>> >> give up and go for the trial he deserved.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Mr. Roby, you are a government sucking heartless bastard.
>>
>> Unworthy of comment.
>
>But apparently true.  My opinion, only, of course.
So, your opinion is truth.  I see...  :-)
>> >Humans died
>> >yesterday, humans who would not have died if the FBI had not taken the
>> >actions
>> >they did.  That is the undeniable truth.  I cried for them.
>>
>> Nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty.
>> That is undeniable truth.
>
>No, it is not.  It is possible the FBI planned for this to happen, and the
>gunfire heard was the FBI keeping the folks inside.  I'm not proposing this as
>the way it went down, but just to point out that it's not "undeniable" that if
>they walked out yesterday, they would be alive today.
You can believe that if you wish.  It is undeniable, however, that people
have left the compound unharmed and alive earier in the standoff.
And since their leader was preaching that they would have an apocalypse, you
can not say undeniably that there wouldn't have been a mass suicide if the
FBI had simply stayed outside and waited another 51 days.
>> My heart bleeds just as much as yours for
>> the children who were never released given 51 days of ample opportunities
>> to do so.  My heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion
>> to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up
>> and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning.
>
>My heart "bleeds" for no one.  You are the "bleeding heart".  And I'm sure
>beyond any possible doubt that you do not feel for those people as I do.  You
>can not say the heartless things you have said if you did.
I am the heartless bleeding heart?  You are not making sense.
You seem to have no concern that someone would keep children inside this
compound when they had 51 days to let them out.  That sounds pretty heartless
to me.
I just heard on the news that some of the survivors regret they hadn't
stayed in the inferno to prove their loyalty to Koresh.  This makes me
sad and sick.
>> >You seem to say
>> >they got what they deserved.
>>
>> I do not think this.  However, if they did set the fire (which started in
>> more than one place and spread very quickly), then they got what they
>> wanted and put into motion themselves.
>
>"they got what they wanted".  What kind of creature are you that you can
>believe this?
Have you ever heard of Jonestown?
The sad thing is the people inside the compound were the authority
worshipers and their only authority was Koresh/Howell.   If these
people were able to think for themselves, there would likely be a lot
more survivors today.  Koresh preached a fiery apocalypse as early as
last year.
>> I see the BATF is going to be investigated by the Justice Dept. and likely
>> by Arlen Spectre and congress.  This is good.  They have bungled the affair
>> from the start.
>
>We agree on this.  Now lets have your God, the FBI, investigated, too.
By all means, the FBI should be investigated, too.
BTW, I thought the second ammendment was God.  :-)
>> >Jim
>> >--
>> >jmd@handheld.com
>>
--
From: fontenot@ravl.rice.edu (Dwayne Jacques Fontenot)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Rice University
Lines: 25
In <C5tEnu.112F@ns1.nodak.edu> green@plains.NoDak.edu (Bill Green) writes:
>Just to shed some light on the fire, it was widely reported (AP, etc.) that
>there WERE several witnesses to BD folks starting the fires.  It has also
>been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once, which
>rules out a Bradley knocking over a lamp, etc. as the cause.
Consider this: The BDs had more than one lamp; The tanks made more than
one hole in the building. Did anyone else notice on the video that it
appeared that wherever there was smoke coming out of the building, there
was a tank nearby?
The fact that it appears that fires started in several places does not
rule out anything.
Also, where are these several witnesses? The way I heard it (from the FBI
spokesman on CNN) the "witnesses" were all people driving the tanks.
>One other point, I'm no fan of Janet Reno, but I do like the way she had the
>"balls" to go ahead and take full responsibility.  Seems like the waffle boy
>had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue.
Too bad nothing will happen to her or him. The FBI and the media have
done their job well.
Dwayne Jacques Fontenot
From: phz@cadence.com (Pete Zakel)
Subject: Re: Some more about gun control...
Nntp-Posting-Host: cds709.cadence.com
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 24
In article <1993Apr16.010235.14225@mtu.edu> cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter) writes:
>You didn't even get the capitalization correct!  Try reading USCA on
>the Constitution, or get any other CORRECT version of the
>Constitution.
This is REALLY STUPID nitpicking.  Capitalization rules in the late 18th
century were quite different from today, and what was posted matches current
capitalization rules.
We also don't make 's' look like 'f' and other such things done in the late
seventeen hundreds.
In the original Constitution, "militia", "arms", etc. were capitalized simply
because they were nouns.  This is also done currently in German.  There is
no special significance to these words simply because they are capitalized.
The capitalization denotes no special emphasis.
-Pete Zakel
(phz@cadence.com or ..!uunet!cadence!phz)
ARIES (Mar 21 - Apr 19)
You are the pioneer type and hold most people in contempt.  You are
quick tempered, impatient, and scornful of advice.  You are not very
nice.
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Lines: 44
In <C5rynw.Iz8@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>And I suppose the FBI also prevented them from coming out with their
>hands up while national tv cameras watch.
Would *you* have come out if you knew the only national TV
cameras were well over a mile away, and yet the agents with the guns
were only a few yards away?  They had contact with a lawyer, so I
am inclined to believe they had an idea of what their situation
actually was.  This also leads to the conspiracy theory that the
lawyer had the BATF pinned on rights violations if the BD's
acted as witnesses, hence the arson.  I doubt that one too, but
it is still quite clear that leaving a safe place to surrender is
a rather stupid thing to do until that place is no longer safe.
>Do you disbelieve everything the FBI says?
As a matter of course, given how they've allowed no other
views to be heard.  I'll reserve judgement until the trial, but so
far as the FBI is concerned their statements carry the same amount
of weight as photons at rest.
>The BATF is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair.
>But to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is
>ludicrous.
Ludicrous, yes.  Possible, yes.  Plausible?  Get the jury.
>If the fire were set by accident or by people outside the compound, I would
>have expected far more cult members to flee the compound.  Or at least come
>out shooting.
That's what gets me too.  It is likely the cult members were
holed up in an enforced place inside the building.  With a decent arson
attempt I suspect many of them could have been trapped.  In addition,
the introduction of CS gas for several hours would have rendered many
of them immobile if not unconscious when their masks quit.  All the props
are there, but proving what scene was played is difficult.  The only
certainty is that the FBI and BATF have few witnesses against them.
< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
<                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >
Subject: Re: "Proper gun control?" What is proper gun cont
From: kim39@scws8.harvard.edu (John Kim)
Organization: Harvard University Science Center
Nntp-Posting-Host: scws8.harvard.edu
Lines: 17
In article <C5JGz5.34J@SSD.intel.com> hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays) writes:
>I'd like to point out that I was in error - "Terminator" began posting only
>six months before he purchased his first firearm, according to private email
>from him.
>I can't produce an archived posting of his earlier than January 1992,
>and he purchased his first firearm in March 1992.
>I guess it only seemed like years.
>Kirk Hays - NRA Life, seventh generation.
I first read and consulted rec.guns in the summer of 1991.  I
just purchased my first firearm in early March of this year.
NOt for lack of desire for a firearm, you understand.  I could
have purchased a rifle or shotgun but didn't want one.
-Case Kim
Subject: Re: Cop kills teenager
From: kim39@scws8.harvard.edu (John Kim)
Organization: Harvard University Science Center
Keywords: handgun mace pepper-spray taser tasp phaser
Nntp-Posting-Host: scws8.harvard.edu
Lines: 43
.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> holland@CS.ColoState.EDU (douglas craig holland) writes:
>	SUSPENDED POLICE OFFICER ARRESTED IN REVENGE TRIPLE HOMICIDE
>
>PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) -- A police officer afraid he would be fired for
>allegedly assaulting a teen-ager walked into an auto body shop wher the youth
>worked, said "You're going to die" and fatally shot him and two others, police
>said.
>A fourth youth was wounded.  A fifth escaped injury by hiding under a car.
>Suspended police officer Robert Sabetta, 23, of Cranston, was arrested at
>gunpoint over three hours after the shooting at Wilson's Auto Enterprises in
>Foster, a rural town of about 4,000 people in northwest Rhode Island.
>						Doug Holland
>
I think I have updated info on this.  My understandingis that
former officer Cranston approached a teenager who was being questioned
by another officer.   Officer Cranston struck Teenager A in the head
with a heavy police flashlight, causing a significant, though not
life-threatening.  THere is no evidence that Teenager A was
doing anything threatening at the time.  Teenager A was released
on bail/recognizance and filed a formal complaint against Officer
Cranston.  The Police Chief suspended Cranston pending an
investigation into the use of excessive force.
The above is pretty clear... but what seems to have
happened is this.  The Chief requested Cranston's gun, but Cranston
refused to turn it over until the Chief went the Cranston's home
to get it.  Sources said Cranston had always wanted to be
a cop and was very afraid of loosing his job because of the complaint
against him.
A few days afterward, Cranston allegedly walked into
Wilson's Garage, where Teenager A and friends were known to
hang out and work on cars as a hobby.  Cranston fatally shot
Teenager A as well as TEenagers B and C.  Teenager D was shot once
in the shoulder/chest.  Teenager E was working under the car
and was not noticed by Officer Cranston.  Teenager D went to a home
and summoned police, who went to Wilson's Garage and found the
3 corpses and one unscathed survivor.
A few days after his arrest, Officer Cranston attemped
to commit suicide in his cell.
-Case Kim
From: mort@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Mortensen)
Subject: Re: We knew it would happen
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Lines: 19
In talk.politics.guns, jagst18+@pitt.edu (Josh A Grossman) writes:
Well Josh I agree with you to some respect...less your spelling
errors.  The Gov'mnt always must win! even if they kill every
man women and child....by GOD they must win at all costs......
This happens over and over and over in this country.  Lets make
excuses, get the worthless press to cover up everything, let the
officials take the heat for top management stupidity etc...etc...
> I am sick with greif for the entire well being of this nation and the
> constitution in claims to protect.
>
> Later,
> Josh
>
>later Morty
From: ron@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Ron Miller)
Subject: Re: Boston Gun Buy Back
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Lines: 18
Re: More on Gun Buybacks
The Denver buy back, trading guns for Denver Nuggets tickets was pretty much
a bust. Very few guns were turned in. The news tried to hype it but
when the best they could do was ".... including a loaded .38..." well,
you get the picture.
A side note- the news also reported that the guns would be checked for
whether or not they were stolen. STOLEN GUNS WILL BE RETURNED TO THEIR
OWNERS!!!!! (They say)
(Does this have anything to do with the rally on the Capital steps yesterday
in support of the RKBA????)
Even the rally made the 5 pm news on 3 channels :-)
Ron Miller
From: ron@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Ron Miller)
Subject: Re: Waco, they did it.    ( MASADA )
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Lines: 8
Re: Flaming wreckage
I wrote my congressmen strongly worded letters demanding they dissolve the
BATF.
Perhaps anger and grief can help spur a letter writing campaign?
Ron Miller
From: roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Nntp-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 85
In article <1r27ld$bp2@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>In article <C5t38G.IL@news.udel.edu>, roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>> In article <1r1rad$7rl@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>> >In article <C5s0Ds.J54@news.udel.edu>, roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>>
>>   [The original question was about who started the fire and whether the
>>    "madmen" were inside or outside the compound.  To which I replied on
>>    the possible sanity level of those inside and outside.]
>
>Was THAT your argument.  Well, you didn't make it very well.  You started
>from the questionable premise that the fire was necessarily an act of
>insanity, rather than an act of negligence or an accident.  Recall, one
>survivor claims that the fire started when a tank knocked over a kerosene
>lamp.  Kind of makes arguments regarding relative sanity somewhat moot, no?
And another survivor claims he heard someone shouting "The fire's started!".
Odd terminology.  That's what one says when you know a fire is planned, not
when one occurs by accident.  We will have to wait and see what the evidence
shows, assuming one is willing to believe any evidence offered by the
"distrustful ones".
>> >> According to an Australian documentary made in the year before the stand off
>> >> began, Koresh and his followers all believed he was Christ.  Koresh
>> >> had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound.
>> >> These were the "perfect children" resulting from the "great seed" of
>> >> his "magnified horn".  Ex-members describe him in ways not dissimilar
>> >> to the way Jim Jones has been described.
>> >
>> >Point noted.  Have you submitted YOUR faith and sex life for BATF clearance?
>> >Better hurry; I believe the deadline was April 15.
>>
>> I paid my taxes.  There was no reference to sex or religion on the form.
>> The comments above and below were meant to address who might be unstable
>> enough to keep children in a building with tear gas or start a fire.
>
>"Nice evasive maneuver, Mr. Chekov, but they're still on our tail."
>
>Let me ask it more plainly.  Which of the above complaints about David
>Koresh's religious or sexual proclivities justified an armed raid by the
>Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms?
Neither.  Again I was merely addressing the sanity level of the players.
I agree that the BATF handled the affair badly from day one.  BTW, I heard
on the news today that the affadavit behind the no-knock warrant was unsealed
today.  Grenade launcher was the only thing on the list that I found
unusual.
>> >> >:Two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set
>> >> >:by cult members.
>
>> >> So, when they talk to the news reporters directly, and relate the same details,
>> >> will you believe them?
>
>> >Believe them?  I won't even RECOGNIZE them.  And neither will anyone else
>> >who doesn't know them personally.
>
>> Do you believe they would put impostors before the national tv cameras?
>
>It's not entirely far-fetched.  Nobody outside the compound would know
>EVERYBODY inside the compound.  Don't forget, the BATF admits having
>agents inside the compound, in any case.
Ambitious news reporters could use the documentary filmed by an Australian
in 1992 on the compound grounds to help identify survivors.  I, for one,
will check their stories for consistency with what I learned in a long
news story about that documentary.
>> At this point, we are getting conflicting reports from the survivors.
>> Best wait til more light is shed upon them.  Of course, this is no
>> good if you believe in eternal darkness.
>
>I'm simply being the devil's advocate.  There's reasonable doubt by the
>boatload standing in the way of anybody totally swallowing the official
>government story on Waco.
Certainly there is some room for doubt.  I certainly reserve the right
to change my opinions when new evidence warrants such a change.  If I
were conspiratorially minded, however, I would never be able to change
my mind, because any evidence I disliked would have to be a lie
fabricated by the "distrustful ones".
--
From: mhamilto@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (The Lawnmowerman)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Keywords: Nata thing !!
Nntp-Posting-Host: nimitz.mcs.kent.edu
Reply-To: Matthew Hamilton
Organization: Kent State University CS
Lines: 33
In article <1r1j1l$4t@transfer.stratus.com>, cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
> In article <1993Apr20.143255.12711@mcs.kent.edu>, mhamilto@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (The Lawnmowerman) writes:
>
> Oh, then, I guess that shooting THOSE kind of babies is all right.
>
> You sick bastard.
> --
>
> cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
> OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
>
Why thanks for your reply to my post.  By the way, I never, never ever said
that it was right to shoot "THOSE kind" of babies.  However it was the Branch
Davidian people in there that insisted on staying there with their "savior"
(yeah right budy boy) because he had brain-washed them into believing that
what ever he says is the truth, even if means that they are to give up their
lives for <<<<HIS>>>> cause.  Therefore it is Davids fault and not the ATF's
who gave them 50 to 51 days to get out, this was 50 days to many for me and
for many of the rest of the U.S.  I am however sad to hear of the death of any
child unlike the sick bastard I supposedly am.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Matthew R. Hamilton   | mhamilto@mcs.kent.edu    |      A.K.A              |
| CS/ Physics Major     | 1499h751@ksuvxb.kent.edu |   (The Lawnmowerman)    |
| Kent State University	| 1299h751@ksuvxb.kent.edu |			     |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                            |
|                                                                            |
|      Look here for future advice.quotes.sayings.jibberish.philosohy        |
|                                                                            |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: ndallen@r-node.hub.org (Nigel Allen)
Subject: WACO: Clinton press conference, part 1
Organization: R-node Public Access Unix - 1 416 249 5366
Lines: 282
Here is a press release from the White House.
President Clinton's Remarks On Waco With Q/A
To: National Desk
Contact: White House Office of the Press Secretary, 202-456-2100
WASHINGTON, April 20 -- Following are remarks by President
Clinton in a question and answer session with the press:
1:36 P.M. EDT
THE PRESIDENT:  On February the 28th, four federal
agents were killed in the line of duty trying to enforce the law
against the Branch Davidian compound, which had illegally stockpiled
weaponry and ammunition, and placed innocent children at risk.
Because the BATF operation had failed to meet its objective, a 51-day
standoff ensued.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation then made every
reasonable effort to bring this perilous situation to an end without
bloodshed and further loss of life.  The Bureau's efforts were
ultimately unavailing because the individual with whom they were
dealing, David Koresh, was dangerous, irrational, and probably
insane.
He engaged in numerous activities which violated both
federal law and common standards of decency.  He was, moreover,
responsible for the deaths and injuries which occurred during the
action against the compound in February.  Given his inclination
towards violence and in an effort to protect his young hostages, no
provocative actions were taken for more than seven weeks by federal
agents against the compound.
This weekend I was briefed by Attorney General Reno on
an operation prepared by the FBI, designed to increase pressure on
Koresh and persuade those in the compound to surrender peacefully.
The plan included a decision to withhold the use of ammunition, even
in the face of fire, and instead to use tear gas that would not cause
permanent harm to health, but would, it was hoped, force the people
in the compound to come outside and to surrender.
I was informed of the plan to end the siege.  I
discussed it with Attorney General Reno.  I asked the questions I
thought it was appropriate for me to ask.  I then told her to do what
she thought was right, and I take full responsibility for the
implementation of the decision.
Yesterday's action ended in a horrible human tragedy.
Mr. Koresh's response to the demands for his surrender by federal
agents was to destroy himself and murder the children who were his
captives, as well as all the other people who were there who did not
survive.  He killed those he controlled, and he bears ultimate
responsibility for the carnage that ensued.
Now we must review the past with an eye towards the
future.  I have directed the United Stated Departments of Justice and
Treasury to undertake a vigorous and thorough investigation to
uncover what happened and why, and whether anything could have been
dne differently.  I have told the departments to involve independent
professional law enforcement officials in the investigation.  I
expect to receive analysis and answers in whatever time is required
to complete the review.  Finally, I have directed the departments to
cooperate fully with all congressional inquiries so that we can
continue to be fully accountable to the American people.
I want to express my appreciation to the Attorney
General, to the Justice Department, and to the federal agents on the
front lines who did the best job they could under deeply difficult
circumstances.
Again, I want to say as I did yesterday, I am very sorry
for the loss of life which occurred at the beginning and at the end
of this tragedy in Waco.  I hope very much that others who will be
tempted to join cults and to become involved with people like David
Koresh will be deterred by the horrible scenes they have seen over
the last seven weeks.  And I hope very much that the difficult
situations which federal agents confronted there and which they will
be doubtless required to confront in other contexts in the future
will be somewhat better handled and better understood because of what
has been learned now.
Q  Mr. President, can you, first of all, tell us why,
after 51 days, you decided --
Q  Mr. President, can you describe for us what it is
that Janet Reno outlined to you in your 15-minute phone conversation
with --
THE PRESIDENT:  I can't hear you both.  If one will go
first and then the other.
Q  Sorry.  Can you describe what Janet Reno --
Q  Mr. President --
THE PRESIDENT:  I'll answer both your questions, but I
can't do it at once.
Q  Can you describe what she told you on Sunday about
the nature of the operation and how much detail you knew about it?
THE PRESIDENT:  Yes.  I was told by the Attorney General
that the FBI strongly felt that the time had come to take another
step in trying to dislodge the people in the compound.  And she
described generally what the operation would be -- that they wanted
to go in and use tear gas which had been tested not to cause
permanent damage to adults or to children, but which would make it
very difficult for people to stay inside the building.  And it was
hoped that the tear gas would permit them to come outside.
I was further told that under no circumstances would our
people fire any shots at them even if fired upon.  They were going to
shoot the tear gas from armored vehicles which would protect them and
there would be no exchange of fire.  In fact, as you know, an awful
lot of shots were fired by the cult members at the federal officials.
There were no shots coming back from the government side.
I asked a number of questions.  The first question I
asked is, why now?  We have waited seven weeks; why now?  The reasons
I was given were the following:
Number one, that there was a limit to how long the
federal authorities could maintain with their limited resources the
quality and intensity of coverage by experts there.  They might be
needed in other parts of the country.
Number two, that the people who had reviewed this had
never seen a case quite like this one before, and they were convinced
that no progress had been made recently and no progress was going to
be made through the normal means of getting Koresh and the other cult
members to come out.
Number three, that the danger of their doing something
to themselves or to others was likely to increase, not decrease, with
the passage of time.
And number four, that they had reason to believe that
the children who were still inside the compound were being abused
significantly, as well as being forced to live in unsanitary and
unsafe conditions.
So for those reasons, they wanted to move at that time.
The second question I asked the Attorney General is whether they had
given consideration to all of the things that could go wrong and
evaluated them against what might happen that was good.  She said
that the FBI personnel on the scene and those working with them were
convinced that the chances of bad things happening would only
increase with the passage of time.
The third question I asked was, has the military been
consulted?  As soon as the initial tragedy came to light in Waco,
that's the first thing I asked to be done, because it was obvious
that this was not a typical law enforcement situation.  Military
people were then brought in, helped to analyze the situation and some
of the problems that were presented by it.   And so I asked if the
military had been consulted.  The Attorney General said that they
had, and that they were in basic agreement that there was only one
minor tactical difference of opinion between the FBI and the military
-- something that both sides thought was not of overwhelming
significance.
Having asked those questions and gotten those answers, I
said that if she thought it was the right thing to do, that she
should proceed and that I would support it.  And I stand by that
today.
Q  Mr. President --
THE PRESIDENT:  Wait.  Go ahead.
Q  Can you address the widespread perception --
reported widely, television, radio and newspapers -- that you were
trying somehow to distance yourself from this disaster?
THE PRESIDENT:  No, I'm bewildered by it.  The only
reason I made no public statement yesterday -- let me say -- the only
reason I made no public statement yesterday is that I had nothing to
add to what was being said and I literally did not know until rather
late in the day whether anybody was still alive other than those who
had been actually seen and taken to the hospital or taken into
custody.  It was purely and simply a question of waiting for events
to unfold.
There was -- I have -- I can't account for why people
speculated one way or the other, but I talked to the Attorney General
on the day before the action took place.  I talked to her yesterday.
I called her again late last night after she appeared on the Larry
King Show, and I talked to her again this morning.  A President -- it
is not possible for a President to distance himself from things that
happen when the federal government is in control.
I will say this, however.  I was, frankly, surprised
would be a mild word, to say that anyone that would suggest that the
Attorney General should resign because some religious fanatics
murdered themselves.  (Applause.)
I regret what happened, but it is not possible in this
life to control the behavior of others in every circumstance.  These
people killed four federal officials in the line of duty.  They were
heavily armed.  They fired on federal officials yesterday repeatedly,
and they were never fired back on.  We did everything we could to
avoid the loss of life.  They made the decision to immolate
themselves.  And I regret it terribly, and I feel awful about the
children.
But in the end, the last comment I had from Janet Reno,
is when -- and I talked to her on Sunday -- I said, now, I want you
to tell me once more why you believe -- not why they believe -- why
you believe we should move now rather than wait some more.  And she
said, it's because of the children.  They have evidence that those
children are still being abused and that they're in increasingly
unsafe conditions, and that they don't think it will get any easier
with time -- with the passage of time.  I have to take their word for
that.  So that is where I think things stand.
Q  Can we assume then that you don't think this was
mishandled in view of the outcome, that you didn't run out of
patience?  And if you had it to do over again, would you really
decide that way?
THE PRESIDENT:  No -- well, I think what you can assume
is just exactly what I announced today.  This is a -- the FBI has
done a lot of things right for this country over a long period of
time.  This is the same FBI that found the people that bombed the
World Trade Center in lickety-split, record time.  We want an inquiry
to analyze the steps along the way.  Is there something else we
should have known?  Is there some other question they should have
asked?  Is there some other question I should have asked?  Can I say
for sure that no one -- that we could have done nothing else to make
the outcome come different?  I don't know that.  That's why I want
the inquiry and that's why I would like to make sure that we have
some independent law enforcement people, not political people, but
totally non-political, outside experts who can bring to bear the best
evidence we have.
There is, unfortunately, a rise in this sort of
fanaticism all across the world.  And we may have to confront it
again.  And I want to know whether there is anything we can do,
particularly when there are children involved.  But I do think it is
important to recognize that the wrong-doers in this case were the
people who killed others and then killed themselves.
Q  Mr. President, were there any other options
presented to you for resolving this situation at any point from
February 28th until yesterday?
THE PRESIDENT:  Well, yes, I got regular reports all
along the way.  There were lots of other options pursued.  If you go
back -- you all covered it very well.  The FBI -- you did a very good
job of it.  I mean, the FBI and the other authorities there pursued
any number of other options all along the way, and a lot of them
early on seemed to be working.  Some of the children got out, some of
the other people left.  There was a -- at one point, there seemed to
be some lines of communication opening up between Koresh and the
authorities.  And then he would say things and not do them and things
just began to spin downward.
Whether there were other -- in terms of what happened
yesterday, the conversation I had with the Attorney General did not
involve other options except whether we should take more time with
the present strategy we were pursuing -- because they said they
wanted to do this, because they thought this was the best way to get
people out of the compound quickly before they could kill themselves.
That's what they thought.
Q  Did the government know that the children did not
have gas masks?
Q     congressional hearings once the situation -- are
you in agreement with that?
THE PRESIDENT:  That's up to the Congress.  They can do
whatever they want.  But I think it's very important that the
Treasury and Justice Departments launch this investigation and bring
in some outside experts.  And as I said in my statement, if any
congressional committees want to look into it, we will fully
cooperate.  There is nothing to hide here.  This was probably the
most well-covered operation of its kind in the history of the
country.
(more, more)
-30-
From: ndallen@r-node.hub.org (Nigel Allen)
Subject: WACO: Clinton press conference, part 2
Organization: R-node Public Access Unix - 1 416 249 5366
Lines: 99
Here is a press release from the White House.
President Clinton's Remarks On Waco With Q/A
To: National Desk
Contact: White House Office of the Press Secretary, 202-456-2100
WASHINGTON, April 20 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Following are
remarks by President Clinton in a question and answer session
with the press (Part 2 of 2):
Go ahead, Sarah.
Q  There are two questions I want to ask you.  The
first is, I think that they knew very well that the children did not
have gas masks while the adults did, so the children had no chance
because this gas was very -- she said it was not lethal, but it was
very dangerous to the children and they could not have survived
without gas masks.  And on February 28th -- let's go back -- didn't
those people have a right to practice their religion?
THE PRESIDENT:  They were not just practicing their
religion, they were -- the Treasury Department believed that they had
violated federal laws, any number of them.
Q  What federal laws --
THE PRESIDENT:  Let me go back and answer -- I can't
answer the question about the gas masks, except to tell you that the
whole purpose of using the tear gas was that it had been tested; they
were convinced that it wouldn't kill either a child or an adult but
it would force anybody that breathed it to run outside.  And one of
the things that I've heard -- I don't want to get into the details of
this because I don't know -- but one of the things that they were
speculating about today was that the wind was blowing so fast that
the windows might have been opened and some of the gas might have
escaped and that may be why it didn't have the desired effect.
They also knew, Sarah, that there was an underground
compound -- a bus buried underground where the children could be
sent.  And they were -- I think they were hoping very much that if
the children were not released immediately outside that the humane
thing would be done and that the children would be sent someplace
where they could be protected.
In terms of the gas masks themselves, I learned
yesterday -- I did not ask this fact question before -- that the gas
was supposed to stay active in the compound longer than the gas masks
themselves were to work.  So that it was thought that even if they
all had gas masks, that eventually the gas would force them out in a
nonviolent, nonshooting circumstance.
MS. MYERS:  Last question.
Q  Mr. President, why are you still saying that --
Q  Could you tell us whether or not you ever asked
Janet Reno about the possibility of a mass suicide?  And when you
learned about the actual fire and explosion what went through your
mind during those horrendous moments?
THE PRESIDENT:  What I asked Janet Reno is if they had
considered all the worse things that could happen.  And she said --
and, of course, the whole issue of suicide had been raised in the
public -- he had -- that had been debated anyway.  And she said that
the people who were most knowledgeable  about these kinds of issues
concluded that there was no greater risk of that now than there would
be tomorrow or the next day or the day after that or at anytime in
the future.  That was the judgment they made.  Whether they were
right or wrong, of course, we will never know.
What happened when I saw the fire, when I saw the
building burning?  I was sick.  I felt terrible.  And my immediate
concern was whether the children had gotten out and whether they were
escaping or whether they were inside, trying to burn themselves up.
That's the first thing I wanted to know.
Thank you.
Q  Mr. President, why are you still saying it was a
Janet Reno decision?  Isn't it, in the end, your decision?
THE PRESIDENT:  Well, what I'm saying is that I didn't
have a four- or five-hour, detailed briefing from the FBI.  I didn't
go over every strategic part of it.  It is a decision for which I
take responsibility.  I'm the President of the United States and I
signed off on the general decision and giving her the authority to
make the last call.  When I talked to her on Sunday, some time had
elapsed.  She might have made a decision to change her mind.  I said,
if you decide to go forward with this tomorrow, I will support you.
And I do support her.
She is not ultimately responsible to the American
people; I am.  But I think she has conducted her duties in an
appropriate fashion and she has dealt with this situation I think as
well as she could have.
Thank you.  (Applause.)
-30-
From: tzs@stein.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: FBI Director's Statement on Waco Standoff
Article-I.D.: shelley.1r2ko0INNqe5
Organization: University of Washington School of Law, Class of '95
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu
feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel) writes:
>We have NO evidence that BATF & FBI would not have started shooting
>when and if people had started coming out of the burning building.
Oh?  How about the press?  If the BATF & FBI were going to shoot people
leaving a burning building, don't you think they would get rid of the
press first?
--Tim Smith
From: pat@rwing.UUCP (Pat Myrto)
Subject: Re: "militia" (incredibly long)
Organization: Totally Unorganized
Lines: 75
In article <C5n0vy.EJ6@ulowell.ulowell.edu> jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu (John Lawrence Rutledge) writes:
<In article <1qna9m$nq8@transfer.stratus.com>, cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
<-> In article <C5L0n2.5LL@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu (John Lawrence Rutledge) writes:
<-> > But, do you knew how much organization is required to training a large
<-> > group of poeple twice a year.  Just to try to get the same people
<-> > every year, provide a basic training to new people so they can
<-> > be integrated into the force, and find a suitable location, it
<-> > requires a continually standing committee of organizers.
<->
<-> Again, my response is, "so what?"  Is Mr. Rutledge arguing that since
<-> the local and federal governments have abandoned their charter to support
<-> such activity, and passed laws prohibiting private organizations from
<-> doing so, that they have eliminated the basis for the RKBA?   On the
<-> contrary, to anyone who understands the game, they have strengthened it.
<
<No, I originally argued that the Second Amendment was "a little bit
<and an anachronism."  These prohibiting laws are examples why the are
<an anachronism.  After all, laws in made by representatives of the
<people.  These representatives of the people have already decided
<that the Second Amendment does not apply or is too broad in some
<cases.  Since these representatives feel an unconditional
<interpretation is not wanted, then it is probable that they majority
<of the people feel the same way.  If this is so, it is an example
<of the people using their power of government.  If this is not
<how the people feel, the people should stand up and state their wishes.
Wrong.  Neglecting that the government and media have bullshitted the
people almost nonstop on this issue, Constitutional limitations are
there to prevent a 'tyrrany of the majority'.  For example, a majority
could vote that given ethnics have no rights, are not people, etc.
and it would fly using the logic above.
When government feels the Constitution is not right for the times,
there is a procedure called an AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION.  THis
is deliberately difficult, and cumbersome, to prevent abuse of those
who decide to ignore the people, or impose unjust policies of a
majority on a minority.   A lynch mob is a majority, remember, outvoting
the hangee.
What the government is doing are VIOLATIONS, end-runs around the
limitations on the government, probably because they know that the
people would be very hard to convince that a good intention is behind
tampering with the Bill of Rights.  Government propeganda on guns has
been very strong and persistant, but not THAT strong.  And it just
shows how gullible the people have become to "I am from the government
and am here to help you sort of line".  We have been lied to, fed
half truths, rigged stats, while the government knows their control
laws have no effect on crime.  They want a government monopoly on
force, pure and simple.  Do you REALLY want the government to be able
to override Constitutional limitations by a simple vote of a bunch
of elitists (congresscritters)?  I sure don't.  The Founding Fathers
sure as hell didn't, either.
<> Mox nix, Mr. Rutledge.  YOU are the only one here claiming that the
<-> RKBA is dependent on the existence of a top-flight, well-regulated
<-> militia.  Why this is a false assumption has already been posted a
<-> number of times.
<
<No, I simple stated that the people have a right to "join a well
<organized militia."  And I have also stated that a militia that
<meets once or twice a year is clearly "well organized."  And this
<state of readiness that I have claimed the people have a "right"
<to, is the same state of readiness expected of the militia as stated
<by Hamilton.
You better read the Senate Subcommitte on the Constitution regarding the
Second Amendment, and a linguist's analisys of the Second itself.
IN the meanwhile, show us some stuff to back up your assertions.
And yes, I have the above mentioned documents (and more) online.
--
pat@rwing.uucp      [Without prejudice UCC 1-207]     (Pat Myrto) Seattle, WA
If all else fails, try:       ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat
WISDOM: "Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity,
and I am not sure about the former."              - Albert Einstien
From: roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 71
Nntp-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu
In article <1r27vo$425@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider) writes:
>roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>:mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider) writes:
>:
>:According to an Australian documentary made in the year before the stand off
>:began, Koresh and his followers all believed he was Christ.  Koresh
>:had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound.
>:These were the "perfect children" resulting from the "great seed" of
>:his "magnified horn".  Ex-members describe him in ways not dissimilar
>:to the way Jim Jones has been described.
>
>I don't know how accurate the documentary was;
The documentary interviewed Koresh and current and ex-members.
The documentary disucussed Koresh's "Christ" status inside the cult,
cult brain-washing techniques, and unusual sex practices (the leader
gets any he wants, and tells others when they can or can't).  I will let
others decide if using religious authority to have sex with a minor is
technically child abuse or not.
>however, Koresh was never
>convicted of any crimes against children, nor was the BATF after him for
>child abuse.
>Their purview (in this case) is strictly in firearms violations,
All true.
>so this information is irrelevant to the discussion.
Well, if a fire was deliberately set by members of the cult, then the
history and background of the cult is very relevant.  The history
and backgournd of the Jones cult was very important in understanding
what happened at Jonestown.
Not taking into account the history and background of Koresh's cult may
also help explain why the FBI and BATF so badly predicted the reponses
they would get from inside the compund nearly every step of the way in
this badly handled affair.
>:FBI agents have to pass rigorous psychological examinations and background
>:checks.  Plus, those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain their
>:decisions in great detail to congress.  Why would the FBI want to fulfill
>:Koresh's own prophecy?
>
>Those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain *something*, but whether
>their answers even remotely resembles the truth we may never know.  And who
>is left alive to care whether the prophecy is fulfilled?  It only holds
>meaning for the nine who survived.
It is likely that there will be at least two investigations (JD and congress)
at this point.
>:>Correction:  The *FBI* said that two of the cult members said this; so far,
>:>no one else has been able to talk to them.
>:
>:So, when they talk to the news reporters directly, and relate the same
>:details, will you believe them?
>
>*IF* they confirm the story, I probably will.  Definitely not until then,
>however.
Interesting and conflicting details are starting to come out.  I have
reverted back to wait mode to find out whether the fire was intentional
or accidental and how it started and why it spread so fast.
>
>Mike Ruff
>--
--
From: cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter)
Subject: Re: Impeach Clinton, Reno
Organization: Michigan Tech
Lines: 29
Nntp-Posting-Host: physerver.phy.mtu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
On 21 Apr 93 02:59:52 GMT, Glenn R. Stone (gs26@prism.gatech.EDU) wrote:
> Fact:  It is a federal felony to infringe civil rights under color of
>        law; where death is involved, this offense carries a penalty
>        of life in prison.
Title 18, 241 and/or 242 seem to apply.  241 is conspiracy (two or
more persons) against rights of citizens.  242 is deprivation of
rights under color of law.  Both call for up to life in prison if
death occurs.  Reno, Bentsen, and Clinton are probably all principals
to the crime (as they are responsible for authorized actions on the
part of their subordinates).
> Conclusion:  We have NO CHOICE, if we are an honest people, but to
>              impeach Mr. Clinton, and remove Reno from office.
You forgot one detail, they should be turned over to the Texas
authorities for trial, as the crime was committed there (Article 4,
section 2).
--
Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech, Houghton, MI 49931
-------------------------------------------------------------
"...when all government... in little as in great things, shall be
drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render
powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will
become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we
separated."   Thomas Jefferson, 1821
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: Re: We knew it would happen
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting
Lines: 8
God forgive me for being an American who pays taxes to a government
that commits atrocities like the Waco Massacre of 1993.
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
I'm beginning to look forward to reaching the %100 allocation of taxes
to pay for the interest on the national debt. At that point the
federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds.
From: diederic@spot.Colorado.EDU (Andrew Diederich)
Subject: BATF Acronym
Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Lines: 13
Haven't seen this one on here yet, so here it goes:
B. arely
A. dequate,
T. otally
F. ***ed!
I don't know about adequate, but it fits the acronym.  =)
--
Andrew Diederich                    diederic@spot.colorado.edu
These opinions are only mine on alternate Tuesdays.
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Rewording the Second Amendment (ideas)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Lines: 21
dfo@vttoulu.tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas) writes:
>You believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of
>mass destruction?  I find it hard to believe that you would support a
>neighbor's right to keep nuclear weapons, biological weapons, and nerve
>gas on his/her property.
That really depends upon where you draw the line while defining
these weapons, and also on if you intend the law to be reflective of
modern practice five months or five centuries down the road.  I'll give
you a little hint:  see that manure pile in the farmer's field down the
road?  In the USA, that is a weapon of mass destruction, biological in
nature, because if it gets washed into an open well it will contaminate
the aquifers that supply thousands of cities with drinking water.  So,
where do *you* draw the line?  In the USA, the EPA has ruled that
a pile of scrap iron is illegal.  Care to draw a thinner line this time?
< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
<                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >
From: cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter)
Subject: Re: Raid justification was: Blast them next time
Distribution: usa
Organization: Michigan Tech
Lines: 52
Nntp-Posting-Host: physerver.phy.mtu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
On Wed, 21 Apr 1993 03:52:11 GMT, Peter Cash (cash@convex.com) wrote:
> I just got through listening to the 10 o'clock news on Channel 4 here in
> Dallas. They trotted out a list of justifications produced by the ATF after
> "months of investigation" for their raid.
CNN just claimed he bought 104 "semi-automatic assault rifles".  And
they say Koresh wasn't god-like...  He managed to buy or build a
collection of fully-automatic semi-automatic rifles...  Quite a feat,
I would say.  ;-)
They're still making charges of "sexual abuse" and such, or course.
Nobody seems to have noticed that the Treasury department has nothing
to do with sex crimes.  Or maybe the feds have recently instituted a
TAX on sex crimes...  Yeah, that's why the BATF was there, looking for
unregistered *guns* ("this is my weapon, this is my gun, this is for
fighting, this is for...").
> I couldn't believe the junk on this list! For example, the BDs were accused
> of stockpiling a bunch of "9mm and .223 ammunition that can be used in M15
> and M16 assault rifles". Imagine that--they had ammunition!
I also heard that they're claiming to be cautious because of Koresh's
"heated ammunition stockpile".  I seem to recall that smokeless powder
tends to decompose at even moderate temperatures.  I would be rather
surprised, after a fire of that nature, if *any* of his "stockpile" is
unexploded, or unburned.
> They also had
> aluminum dust! (Yeah, it's a component of thermite, but so far I haven't
> heard that it's illegal to take a grinder to the aluminum lawn
> furniture...)
I seem to recall that aluminum powder is a common component of
fireworks...  The folks on rec.pyro could probably tell you.
> The only thing on the list that could conceivably have been
> illegal was an M-79 grenade launcher. (Anybody know about this?)
I think *anything* is legal if you have the proper license.  If he had
a "curios and relics" permit, I believe he could legally own
handgrenades to go with his launcher.
--
Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech, Houghton, MI 49931
-------------------------------------------------------------
"...when all government... in little as in great things, shall be
drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render
powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will
become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we
separated."   Thomas Jefferson, 1821
From: atfurman@cup.portal.com (A T Furman)
Subject: Re: The Cold War: Who REALLY Won?
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 51
>If one reasons that the United States of America at one time represented
>and protected freedom << individual liberty and personal responsibility >>
>(and I do, in fact, think that this is true) and that totalitarianism <<
>absolute government control and tyranny >> represents freedom's opposite
>(which it does), did the USA really win the cold war?
>
>Standard disclaimers ALWAYS apply!
>
>----------------
>Graham K. Glover
>----------------
The Cold War has not ended.  The only thing that has happened is that
the two sides have exchanged roles.
The USA has a higher imprisonment rate (400 per 100,000 population)
than any country in Europe by a factor of 10 or so.  In California,
it is over 600 per 100,000 population.  The prison population in
California is now over 100,000, a quadrupling since 1980.  Most of
these inmates were convicted under the drug prohibition laws.  Police
now confiscate property, without trial, under a "good faith probable
cause" standard, in the name of depriving the horrible ghastly drug
dealers of their ill-gotten gains.  Conduct an opinion poll, and a
majority will answer "yes" if you ask them whether civil liberties and
due process should be diluted in order to Send Our Young People The
Message That We Are Serious About Winning The War On Drugs.  I don't
know whether anyone has measured such a figure among gun owners, but
I would expect the same result.  They certainly seem to vote that way.
According to Jack Herer's book _The Emperor Wears No Clothes_, over
TWELVE MILLION YEARS of prison time have been served under the
marijuana prohibition laws, by people who were minding their own
business and causing no harm to others (and less harm to themselves
than users of tobacco, with 400,000 confirmed kills/year).  Under
the "War on Drugs" campaign of "zero tolerance" due process protections
have eroded, and mandatory sentences of ten years without parole have
proliferated.  By and large, gun owners have voted for the politicians
who favor such measures.  And now, all the precedents--not only
legal, but political:  "My fellow Americans, we must send our young
people the message that we are serious about winning the War On
Murder"--are going to be applied to the oncoming wave of gun
prohibition laws.  Gun owners are about to get a taste of the medicine
they voted for believing it would be used only on those with different
tastes in recreational drugs.
What goes around comes around.
Alan T. Furman         | Don't blame me -- I voted Libertarian
---------------------------+----------------------------------------
atfurman@cup.portal.com  |   (800)682-1776 for more information
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago, academic Computer Center
From: Jason Kratz <U28037@uicvm.uic.edu>
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
Distribution: usa
<1993Apr17.235338.2819@ucsu.Colorad
<1993Apr19.203606.27625@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>
Lines: 45
In article <1993Apr19.203606.27625@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>,
andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) says:
>
>In article <93108.172544U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> Jason Kratz                     >
><U28037@uicvm.uic.edu
>>The point that I forgot to bring up here (and this has nothing to do with    g
>bein
>>a gang member or not) is that it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in   s
>thi
>>area (or in the state of illinois for that matter).
>
>Right - it nas nothing to do with whther or not the person
>is/was a gang member, but that's what Kratz inferred....
>
>Wrong - there are people who can legally carry concealed in IL and
>there are circumstances under which MANY people can carry concealed.
>
>Is accuracy really too much to expect?
>
>-andy
>--
No it's not.  If you would have read my other post I was accurate.  Here's what
I said:
[material from another post]------------------------->  The other point that I
would like to make because I know it's true (looked this one up in the Illinois
this is for you Andy-----> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
statutes before) is that it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in Illinois.
^^^^^^^^ <------ Also for you Andy.
And then I went on to say:
There is no such thing as a CCW for us ordinary folk here.
[end of quoted material]
Of course I forgot to mention who "us ordinary folk" are so just for Andy I'm
going to go to the library tomorrow and photocopy the part of the Illinois
statutes with this information and post it.  Ordinary citizens CAN NOT get a
license to carry a concealed weapon.  There are very few people who can.  I
even asked my lawyer friend about this and he told me that only certain people
can get licenses for concealed carry.  He couldn't remember which people but he
knew for sure that regular citizens couldn't get that type of license.  He told
me to go check at the library for the statutes which I did.  I'll post that
info tomorrow night.  Until then.......
Jason
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: The Right To Keep And Bear Arms (was: Re: Who's next?...)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Lines: 28
mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider) writes:
>st922957@pip.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>:Just because someting was good once, does not mean it will be forever.
>Yes, gone are the days when you can leave your house unlocked at night.
>Well, it couldn't last forever.
For the record, it wasn't until I came to college (excluding
the times I went to Omaha or Council Bluffs for something) that I
ever removed the keys from the ignition of my car!  Come to think of
it, it was only after I moved to Ames, Ia (pop 45K) that I ever took
to locking my doors at night.
I've discovered that $50K/year isn't worth living in fear
all day.  I might just move back to the farm.
This weekend is Veishea.  You know, when ISU students riot
for no apparent reason.  This year, we've the Farm Aid concert
to add to the festivities.  Anybody bet me there's another riot?
Remember, Iowa law has three guys talking loud defined as a riot.
Stay tuned for an on-the-scene report this weekend.
< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
<                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago, academic Computer Center
From: Jason Kratz <U28037@uicvm.uic.edu>
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
Distribution: usa
Lines: 28
In article <1qvff6INN9p4@clem.handheld.com>, jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De
Arras) says:
>
>In article <93109.172450U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> Jason Kratz
>[...]
>
>> It is kind of funny though how you were the only one who picked up
>> the part about my sister being a social worker and keeping me up to date on
>the
>> gang thing.  Everyone else seemed to just skim by that part.
>>
>> Jason
>
>
>I guess that just means "Everyone else" was mistaken?
>
>Jim
>
>jmd@handheld.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
Actually not Jim.  I just said that everyone else seemed to have skimmed by
that part and not mentioned it.  You can get whatever meaning you want from it.
Jason
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Blast them next time
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Distribution: usa
Lines: 69
oldham@ces.cwru.edu (Daniel Oldham) writes:
>What happened in Waco is not the fault of the BATF. If they would of
>had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the
>compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened.
SeAL Team six should have handled it?  Delta Force?  The
BATF had more than enough equipment and men.  They did not have
good intel, but they did have poor planning.  They fucked up.  Even
in just the most basic military sense, they fucked up.  Excuses do
not justify body counts.
>The BATF needs more people, better weapons and more armored
>transports. When they meet hostile fire they should be able to use
>more force instead of retreating to a stand off. If you are going to
>do a job then do it right. The BATF is there to protect us and they
>must have the proper equipment and people to do the job.
And your excuses fall upon deaf ears when the same BATF
has shown shitty leadership despite more people, better weapons,
and exclusive use of armor against their targets.  BATF is nothing
more than a private army of the government.  Do the agents swear an
oath, as I did, to uphold the Constitution?  You know, that document
that stipulates the highest law of the land?  If they do, they should
be up for charges in a court of law.  Remember, the law?  That's
the whole reason for any of this.
>With the WoD and the increased crime in the streets the BATF is needed
>more now then ever. If they blast away a few good fokes then that is
>the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country. Look
>at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country
>of ours.
Yeah, I've been related to many of them.  This is flame-bait,
right?  I'm not paying your price.  Mind if I sight in my guns on
your body?  Think of it as the price you have to pay that we may all
live without fear of my making a stray shot.  It's fine and dandy to
revel in the other guy being the target and your supposed safety.  In
the military, we called this "chicken shit."  Leadership from the rear.
The War on Drugs, despite being a catchy term for nothing more than
a continuation of policy since before this century, seems to have
gotten you convinced that my rights aren't worth your good vibes.
Mind if I cut your net access, as well as access to any and all forms
of expression?  See, you make me nervous, what with you being able
to influence so many.  I'm sure you can see how this is the price we
have to pay for freedom and liberty in this country, as well as
a fair and unbiased judiciary.
>With the arms build up in Waco they needed to hit that compound with
>mega fire power. They could of gone in there blasting and killed a few
>women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn
>to death 51 days later.
Mind if we include you in the body count?  I'm sure we could
all file it under "civic improvement" and your life wouldn't have
been sacrificed in vain.  If you like, you can will your estate to
defecit reduction, too.  Now, when you learn how the law protects, or
doesn't protect, everybody equally and how our collective boot may
one day be on your collective throat, perhaps at that time you will
mature enough to realize just what you're talking about and how
serious this is.
Next time, include a smiley.  While I hesitate to think that
you could have meant this seriously, it deserved a small flame anyway.
< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
<                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: text of White House announcement and Q&As on clipper chip encryption
Organization: DSI/USCRPAC
Distribution: na
Lines: 11
Though I agree this is not the place to discuss guns, I note in passing that
a number of gun apologists seem to have ignored the words "well regulated"
in their distorted interpretations of the Second Amendment.
David
--
David Sternlight         Great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of
our information, errors and omissions excepted.
From: dfo@vttoulu.tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas)
Subject: Re: Rewording the Second Amendment (ideas)
Organization: VTT
Lines: 58
In article <1r1eu1$4t@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.083057.16899@ousrvr.oulu.fi>, dfo@vttoulu.tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas) writes:
>> In article <1qv87v$4j3@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>> >In article <C5n3GI.F8F@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu (John Lawrence Rutledge) writes:
>
>> >> The massive destructive power of many modern weapons, makes the
>> >> cost of an accidental or crimial usage of these weapons to great.
>> >> The weapons of mass destruction need to be in the control of
>> >> the government only.  Individual access would result in the
>> >> needless deaths of millions.  This makes the right of the people
>> >> to keep and bear many modern weapons non-existant.
>> >Thanks for stating where you're coming from.  Needless to say, I
>> >disagree on every count.
>> You believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of
>> mass destruction?  I find it hard to believe that you would support a
>> neighbor's right to keep nuclear weapons, biological weapons, and nerve
>> gas on his/her property.
>> If we cannot even agree on keeping weapons of mass destruction out of
>> the hands of individuals, can there be any hope for us?
>I don't sign any blank checks.
Of course.  The term must be rigidly defined in any bill.
>When Doug Foxvog says "weapons of mass destruction," he means CBW and
>nukes.  When Sarah Brady says "weapons of mass destruction" she means
>Street Sweeper shotguns and semi-automatic SKS rifles.
I doubt she uses this term for that.  You are using a quote allegedly
from her, can you back it up?
>When John
>Lawrence Rutledge says "weapons of mass destruction," and then immediately
>follows it with:
>>> The US has thousands of people killed each year by handguns,
>>> this number can easily be reduced by putting reasonable restrictions
>>> on them.
>...what does Rutledge mean by the term?
I read the article as presenting first an argument about weapons of mass
destruction (as commonly understood) and then switching to other topics.
The first point evidently was to show that not all weapons should be
allowed, and then the later analysis was, given this understanding, to
consider another class.
>cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
>OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
--
doug foxvog
douglas.foxvog@vtt.fi
From: dfo@vttoulu.tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas)
Subject: Re: Rewording the Second Amendment (ideas)
Organization: VTT
Lines: 55
In article <viking.735378520@ponderous.cc.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
>dfo@vttoulu.tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas) writes:
>>You believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of
>>mass destruction?  I find it hard to believe that you would support a
>>neighbor's right to keep nuclear weapons, biological weapons, and nerve
>>gas on his/her property.
>	That really depends upon where you draw the line while defining
>these weapons,
This means you would support a ban if it were narrow enough.  Good.
>and also on if you intend the law to be reflective of
>modern practice five months or five centuries down the road.
I would hope so.  Let's define a nuclear weapon as an explosive weapon
whose majority of energy comes from fission and/or fusion of atomic
nuclei.  Let's define a biological weapon as live organisms or viruses
in such state, quantity, and with such a vector that they could cause
death or serious disease [further defined] to a significant number of
people if released in a city, similarly populated area, resevoir, or
cropland.
Nerve gas and mustard gas are well defined.  Other poisonous
gasses should be individually banned only if it can be shown that there
is no use not related to weaponry.  Licenses should be available for
research purposes on such chemicals.
I am not a lawyer, but these ideas could certainly be a basis for
definitions.
>I'll give
>you a little hint:  see that manure pile in the farmer's field down the
>road?  In the USA, that is a weapon of mass destruction,
Nope.  It is not considered a weapon.
>biological in
>nature, because if it gets washed into an open well it will contaminate
>the aquifers that supply thousands of cities with drinking water.  So,
>where do *you* draw the line?  In the USA, the EPA has ruled that
>a pile of scrap iron is illegal.  Care to draw a thinner line this time?
It is not defined as a weapon of mass destruction.  Many things are
banned for other reasons.
>< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
><  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
--
doug foxvog
douglas.foxvog@vtt.fi
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Will CS burn or explode
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Lines: 21
rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Nice Guy) writes:
>The FBI released large amounts of CS tear gas into the compound in
>Waco.  CS tear gas is a fine power.  Is CS inflammable.  Grain dust
>suspended in air can form an explosive mixture, will CS suspended in air
>form an explosive mix? Could large quantities of CS have fueled the
>rapid spread of fire in the compound?
No chance.  If that CS ignited at all, it would have been
quite similar to a grain bin explosion.  Explosion, I note.  The
entire compound would have been leveled, not merely burned.  As
there was no explosion, there was no CS ignition causing the fire.
Note: at five miles a decent grain elevator explosion will
knock you on your butt and your ears will ring for days.  I speak
from experience here.
< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
<                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >
Nntp-Posting-Host: surt.ifi.uio.no
From: Thomas Parsli <thomasp@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Change of name ??
In-Reply-To: popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich)'s message of Wed, 21
Apr 1993 01:54:51 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
<93864@hydra.gatech.EDU>
<POPOVICH.93Apr20205451@prince.cs.columbia.edu>
Lines: 37
Originator: thomasp@surt.ifi.uio.no
How we survived ww2:
We mailed postings about things we didn't know any thing about
to ONLY the wrong places.
I'm NOT trying to censor this or any newsgroup, I'm just trying to
give some hints about OTHER newsgroups.
Doesn't this belong to alt.conspiracy ??
NOTE!!!
My posting was in reply to those about FBI torching the plasce after
filling it with napalm, and arrested people dissapering.
>We all know what a quisling is, right?
Obviously we don't.....
Vidkun Quisling is known to be a traitor in Norway, not a 'censor'.
If I have betrayed my country (Norway) bescause I implied that som of
you jumped to conclusions/sound a little paranoid then I think there
is a LOT of quislings in Norway.......
About Waco
It looks to me as the BATF and FBI can't handle situations like this.
The way it went reminds me of 'stun' bomb beeing dropped on a house
in LA from a helicopter. (Whole block went up in flames, 5 died...)
It doesn't HAVE to be a conspiracy, MAYBE they just screwed up ???
This is not a .signature.
It's merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith
and to bring down the evil Internet.
Thomas Parsli
thomasp@ifi.uio.no
From: kevin@axon.cs.byu.edu (Kevin Vanhorn)
Subject: American Horror File -- call for help
Organization: /usr/users/kevin/.organization
Lines: 30
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: axon.cs.byu.edu
Today's atrocity in Waco has finally impelled me to start working on
something I've been thinking about for some time.  Over the last few
years I have heard of one case after another of government running
completely amok.  Unfortunately, most people are oblivious of the
government's crimes and still think of it as their protector.  So I
intend to put together what I call the "American Horror File": a
compilation of cases where the American government has run roughshod
over the rights of its citizens over the last few years, focusing
especially on deaths and injuries resulting from no-knock warrants,
and financial ruin to innocents resulting from civil forfeiture laws,
but including any other cases for which I can find decent
documentation.  I hope to make people blood-boiling, artery-bursting,
red-hot enraged at their government.
The end result will probably be a book in electronic form (ASCII text
and postscript files) detailing the government's crimes of recent
years.  This book will be distributed at cost, and I will encourage
people to post copies to BBS's, send copies on disk to friends, and
print out copies and give them to neighbors.
This is a call for your help.  Any information that you can send me on
how government is running amok will be greatly appreciated.  I would prefer
information that is well-documented, with sources given, about specific
instances of governmental abuses.  I also welcome anyone who wants to
join me in collecting and researching information for this project.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin S. Van Horn       | Is your religion BATF-approved?
vanhorn@bert.cs.byu.edu |
Subject: news says BATF indictment/warrant unsealed...
From: kim39@scws8.harvard.edu (John Kim)
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center
Nntp-Posting-Host: scws8.harvard.edu
Lines: 19
Something about how Koresh had threatened to cause local
problems with all these wepaons he had and was alleged to
have.
Someone else will post more details soon, I'm sure.
Other News:
Sniper injures 9 outside MCA buildling in L.A.  Man arrested--suspect
was disgruntled employee of Universal Studios, which
is a division of M.C.A.
QUESTION:
What will Californians do with all those guns after the Reginald
denny trial?
-Case Kim
kim39@husc.harvard.edu
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: BATF's Prime Directive
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting
Lines: 7
Bully, Them; Bludgeon Them, Bury Them.
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
I'm beginning to look forward to reaching the %100 allocation of taxes
to pay for the interest on the national debt. At that point the
federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds.
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: Janet Reno and "Responsibility"
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting
Lines: 11
I see no difference between Janet Reno's claim of responsibility for
the Waco Massacre and the IRA's claims of responsibility for various
acts of terrorism against British citizens.
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
I'm beginning to look forward to reaching the %100 allocation of taxes
to pay for the interest on the national debt. At that point the
federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds.
Nntp-Posting-Host: surt.ifi.uio.no
From: Thomas Parsli <thomasp@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
In-Reply-To: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)'s message of Mon, 19 Apr 1993
08:52:42 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
<1qjmnuINNlmd@clem.handheld.com>
<CMM.0.90.2.734911642.thomasp@surt.ifi.uio.no>
<viking.734945095@ponderous.cc.iastate.edu>
<CMM.0.90.2.735132009.thomasp@surt.ifi.uio.no>
<viking.735209562@ponderous.cc.iastate.edu>
Lines: 51
Originator: thomasp@surt.ifi.uio.no
I don't remember the figures EXACTLY, but there were about 3500 deaths in Texas
in 1991 that was caused by guns.....
This is more than those beeing killed in car-ACCIDENTS!
(Yes, there could be that low sentences or high poverty could influence the
figures but they're still *pretty* high right??)
I also believe Texas has some of the most liberal 'gun-laws' in USA......
*I* should not suffer because of others....
We all agree on this one, BUT we also live in a sociaty and therefor
we'll have to give up *SOME* of our 'freedom' (Note the '').
Do you have an insurance??
Then you'll have to pay because of what others do...
Do you buy anything??
YOU are paying for those who return goods, steal or even those who gets a bonus...
Do you live with other people??
Then you 'can't' do ererything you'd want (burping/farting playing music LOUD)
-What the hell is he trying to say ??
When you live in a society (USA are stilll counted as one...) you
have to saccrifice.
The question is HOW MUCH.
One state (don't remember which, Texas??) tried to impose a rule that you could
only buy ONE gun each MONTH. Think you all know what happened.....
I respect the right to defend yourself, but that right should not inflict on
other people.
It seems like you all realize that you have a problem in America, the only
problem is
that you won't take the car away from the drunk driver, you hope to cure him
first.
Hope life comfirms to the standard of Winnie the Poh.
This is not a .signature.
It's merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith
and to bring down the evil Internet.
Thomas Parsli
thomasp@ifi.uio.no
Organization: Penn State University
From: <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Clinton wants National ID card, aka USSR-style "Internal Passport"
<C5JIF8.I4n@boi.hp.com> <1993Apr16.022926.27270@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
<C5KsE0.5px.1@cs.cmu.edu> <1993Apr19.162137.1306@hsh.com>
Lines: 50
In article <1993Apr19.162137.1306@hsh.com>, paul@hsh.com (Paul Havemann) says:
>
>In article <C5KsE0.5px.1@cs.cmu.edu>, tsmith+@cs.cmu.edu (Tom Smith) writes:
>> In article <1993Apr16.022926.27270@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>                       U
>fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.ED
>(Frank Crary) writes:
>>>In article <C5JIF8.I4n@boi.hp.com> slack@boi.hp.com (David Slack) writes:
>>>>The idea of the card is bull in and of its self, but I'm curious to know,
>do
>>>>they plan on making it a requirement to *always* have it on you, or is it
>>>>only going to be required to be *presented* when trying to ge medical aid?
>>>
>>>This, at least, has already been determined: The Blue Cross medical
>>>coverage for all federal employees is a good model for a future
>>>national system. To get emergency medical care, anyone so insured
>>>must always carry their Blue Cross card. Before entering a hospital,
>>>you must notify Blue Cross, or they will refuse to pay your bills.
>>>In an emergency, where you must be treated before notifying them,
>>>you must inform them within 24 hours or (if you are unable to do
>>>so for medical reasons) the hospital must. Failing to do so within
>>>24 hours means they will not cover the hospitalization. In you need
>>>your card to notify them (and without the card, the hospital certainly
>>>wouldn't know they had to.) Therefore, you are required to carry
>>>the card at all times, or do without emergency medical coverage.
>>>
>> Which works fine until you end up in the hospital because you were hit on
>the
>> head and your wallet, with your insurance card, is stolen.  This happened to
>> me, and it took six months to sort the mess out.  These sorts of plans sound
>> nice at first, but in the end they just create a lot of paperwork and
>> bureaucracy to deal with all the checking and filing they involve.
>>
>>                               Tom the non hacker
>
>Whoa!  Have a care what you say, Tom.  The _obvious_ answer to that problem
>is to tatoo your National I.D. Number on you -- say, your forearm -- so you
>can never leave home without it.  Hell, it worked once before...
>
>And that brings us back to my original, sarcasm-laden post:  where's the
>outcry from the liberal sector over the National ID Card?  My God, if some
>conservative had proposed this -- plus Clinton's "National Police" proposal
>-- the liberals would be shrieking "Sieg Heil!" and "Police State"!
>
>You self-styled liberals ought to be ashamed of yourselves.  Hypocrites!
I don't know what you watch, but I saw a spokesman for the ACLU voice
opposition to this idea on NBC the very first night.
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: Re: WACO: Clinton press conference, part 1
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting
Lines: 10
I predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the
Federal Assault in Waco will result in future assaults of that type
being conducted as full-scale military operations with explicit
shoot-to-kill directives.
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
I'm beginning to look forward to reaching the %100 allocation of taxes
to pay for the interest on the national debt. At that point the
federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds.
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
From: <MGB@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cost/Benefit Analysis (was FBI Director's Statement...)
<1993Apr20.212028.17463@twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com>
<1r3dvnINNr29@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
Lines: 6
Has anyone noticed or commented on the fact that so many of those who
were willing, nay demanding, that we wait forever for Mr Hussein and
Iraq, that we use tremendously costly "sanctions", to avoid a loss
of life, are now at the fore front of those clammoring that we should
have smashed those "religious radicals" and we were wasting money allowing
this stand off to go on  ?  How the worm turns when the sect changes.
From: kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead)
Subject: Re:  Blast them next time
Nntp-Posting-Host: sora.icd.ab.com
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.
Lines: 57
oldham@ces.cwru.edu (Daniel Oldham) babbles:
What happened in Waco is not the fault of the BATF. If they would of
had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the
compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened.
If they'd gone to the door and knocked on it to serve the
warrant, like the Sheriff had done 3 other times, they
wouldn't have needed to HAVE an initial assault.  But then,
Herr Klinton and Attorney Gen'l Reno wouldn't have been
able to have told such heroic stories about how they
"protected" the rest of us from a group of people who
kept to themselves, miles out in the prairie.
The BATF needs more people, better weapons and more armored
transports. When they meet hostile fire they should be able to use
more force instead of retreating to a stand off. If you are going to
do a job then do it right. The BATF is there to protect us and they
must have the proper equipment and people to do the job.
The BATF needs to be disbanded.  This out of control group
of Rambo wannabees is a danger to the Republic.
With the WoD and the increased crime in the streets the BATF is needed
more now then ever. If they blast away a few good fokes then that is
the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country.
Well, I figure you're going to get flamed pretty badly by
everybody else for this incredibly stupid statement, so I'll
just let it pass for now.
Case Western reserve, huh?  Do the Feds know about that big
stockpile of automatic weapons and crack you have in  your
house?  Are you the same Daniel Oldham that lives on Orchard
Drive?  Just so they get the address right, that is...
Look
at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country
of ours.
Well, it used to be a great country.  Now I'm not so sure.
I knew a few of those good people who died in wars;  I was
in Viet Nam.  I can assure you, none of us fought to protect
the right of the government to attack its own citizens with
military force without provocation.  (Hint: serving a search warrant
is NOT sufficient provocation to stage a military style assault
on a religious group.  At Least not here in the US.  Maybe in
Iraq, or Syria...)
With the arms build up in Waco they needed to hit that compound with
mega fire power. They could of gone in there blasting and killed a few
women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn
to death 51 days later.
This is a joke, right?  Or are they really letting fools like
you into CWRU now?  Too bad. Used to be a good school.  How'd you
get in anyway, did your old man buy a new wing for the library?
From: VEAL@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Subject: Re: The Dayton Gun "Buy Back" (Re: Boston Gun Buy Back)
Lines: 23
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
In article <C5uCHu.FFn@cbnews.cb.att.com> lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani) writes:
>According to WNCI 97.9 FM radio this morning, Dayton, Ohio is operating a
>gun "buy back".  They are giving $50 for every functional gun turned in.
>They ran out of money in one day, and are now passing out $50 vouchers of
>some sort.  They are looking for more funds to keep operating.  Another
>media-event brought to you by HCI.
>
>Is there something similar pro-gun people can do ?  For example, pay $100
>to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm ?  Sounds a bit
>tacky, but hey, whatever works.
Ack, what a public relations nightmare just begging happen.
"Gun Lobby pays vigilanties."
"NRA to shell out dough to gunfighters."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal Univ. of Tenn. Div. of Cont. Education Info. Services Group
PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "I still remember the way you laughed, the day
your pushed me down the elevator shaft;  I'm beginning to think you don't
love me anymore." - "Weird Al"
From: pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Lines: 12
In article <C5sv88.HJy@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
>>Do YOU eat all your food cold?
>
>Ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves?  Very popular.
>Electric stoves outside metro-areas especially.
The Dividians didn't have that option after the FBI cut off their
electricity.
--
Flag burners don't bother me as much as seeing the American flag on
tanks assaulting the church of Americans who had never bothered anyone.
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Subject: Re: Don't knock the Glock (was Re: My Gun is like my Am Ex Card)
Organization: Western Washington University
Distribution: usa
Lines: 20
>In article <1993Apr15.152834.16638@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.
com
>>Seriously.  There is no difference in the safeties betweena Glock and any DA
>>revolver.  Intellectually, think of the Glock as a very high cap revolver.
>>Ignoring stove pipes, misfeeds and all the other bonus exercises that
>>autoloaders give you, that is.
On a DA revolver, you get another try on a misfire.  On a pistol where
the trigger does not cock the hammer, like a Jennings, or an Astra M400,
or a Glock, a misfire requires the slide be cycled to get the gun  to
function.
Rather than a high capacity revolver, think of a Glock as an Astra M400
with no manual safety and a heavier trigger pull.
Jim Del Vecchio
From: dlb5404@tamuts.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf)
Subject: Latest on Texas HB 1776 (CCW)
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamuts.tamu.edu
I called the Texas bill tracking people (800/253-9693) again today
regarding HB 1776 -- Concealed Carry.  Well, it was supposed to come
up for a vote this past Wednesday, but the bill got sent back to
the Public Safety Committee.  The PSC gave it a favorable rating
AGAIN, and the bill must now be scheduled for debate by
the Calendars Committee AGAIN.
Daryl Biberdorf  N5GJM    d-biberdorf@tamu.edu
+ Sola Gratia + Sola Fide + Sola Scriptura
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: Some more about gun control...
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 87
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
In article <1993Apr16.162447.26289@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, graham@cs.washington.edu (Stephen Graham) writes:
> In article <1qicep$obf@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
> >In article <1993Apr14.232806.18970@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, graham@cs.washington.edu (Stephen Graham) writes:
re: is "John Q. Public with a gun" protected?
> >> It's worth noting that US vs. Miller sustained Miller's conviction
> >> of possession of an illegal firearm, noting that a sawed-off shotgun
> >> was not a proper militia weapon.
> >No, they noted that no one had CLAIMED that it was a proper militia
> >weapon (despite having been used in at least two wars).  This was true,
> >since neither Miller nor his lawyer appeared before the Court.
> Did they or did they not sustain Miller's conviction? I don't have the
> text of the case handy.
Miller was convicted of owning a sawed-off shotgun and not paying the
NFA '34 tax.  Snatches of the court's decision:
The Second Amendment was intended to "assure the continuation and render
possible the effectiveness of such a force [the militia]... It must be
interpreted and applied with that end in view."
The militia includes "all males physically capable of acting in concert
for the common defense."
However, regarding sawed-off shotguns, "certainly it is not within
judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military
equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense."
"Judicial notice" is the term of art here -- it meant that no such
evidence had been formally presented.  This is different from claiming
that they had ruled that it wasn't.
> Yes, shotguns had been used in WWI, the Spanish-American War, and the
> US Civil War. That was not in question. The possession of a sawed-off
> shotgun was, i.e., a weapon altered to improve concealibility.
I'm not talking about plain shotguns in war -- I'm talking about short-
barrelled ("sawed-off") shotguns in war.
Compare Revolutionary War blunderbusses; luparas in the Spanish-American
War; and trench-cleaners in WW I.  They were also put to good use by
US soldiers in WW II, not to mention being invaluable to "tunnel rats"
in Vietnam, but, of course, "Miller" took place in 1939.
> >> Therefore, US vs. Miller supports limited government regulation of
> >> firearms.
> >
> >Don't go arguing down this road unless you are willing to abide by
> >the consequences that you find at the end of it -- mainly, that the
> >law-abiding common man has a right to own any weapon that has a militia
> >purpose, from handguns to sawed-off shotguns and fully automatic weapons.
> >That, in fact, is what this decision says.
>
> You are free to produce evidence that I'm not willing to abide with
> all the implications of this.
Here is my quandary:  you seem to be arguing that certain types of
guns fall outside the scope of the Second.  This isn't a useful argument
unless you believe that some significant gun or class of gun belongs
in that class.
I think we both agree that zip guns probably aren't protected.  Maybe
we also both agree that all the weapons that random state governments
have been banning or trying to ban because they have "no sporting purpose"
and "no provate citizen would ever need these guns" DO fall under the
protection of the Second.
So, given that damn near any gun of any practical utility is or has at
some time been used by the military, even if only for marksmanship
training purposes, I need to understand why you are intent on pressing
this point, arguing that that SOMETHING is not protected by the Second.
> Just because I don't whole-heartedly endorse the NRA position does not
> mean that I oppose the RKBA. This attitude is what makes the NRA
> unpopular.
Often, what makes someone unpopular is what other people say about him.
How much did any of us fear or abhor the Branch Davidians six months ago?
How many of us feared or abhorred Saddam Hussein five years ago?
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Gritz/JBS/Liberty Lobby/LaRouche/Christic Insitute/Libertarian/...
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Lines: 27
In article <C5L2BC.C2x.1@cs.cmu.edu> rubinoff+@cs.cmu.edu (Robert Rubinoff) writes:
>In article <93105.230230U23590@uicvm.uic.edu> <U23590@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>Note that Bo Gritz was on the Populist party ticket with David
>>Duke (for veep) in 1988 until he found out that Duke was leading
>>he ticket, when he withdrew his candidacy.
That's a revisionist account of what happened.  Gritz was well-aware
of Duke's presence on the ticket.  Given that Gritz is not at all shy
about associating and promoting other white supremacists (such as the
Christian Identity movement or Willis Carto), whatever reasons Gritz
had to leave the ticket had nothing to do with Duke's presence.
>>So Gritz gave up his
>>chance to be Vice President of the US just to aviod supporting
>>Duke.
>
>I'd hardly call that "giving up his chance to be Vice President of the US";
>the chance of the Populist Party ticket winning is essentially nil.  Still,
>it does imply that he doesn't want to be associated with Duke.
I believe Chip Berlet has a Populist Party newsletter from the time with
a photo of Gritz happily shaking hands with Duke.
--
ted frank                 |
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |         I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
the u of c law school     |
standard disclaimers      |
From: rboudrie@wpi.WPI.EDU (Robert A. Boudrie)
Subject: Re: Some more about gun control...
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 249
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu
In article <1993Apr16.010235.14225@mtu.edu> cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter) writes:
>In article <C5Bu9M.2K7@ulowell.ulowell.edu>
>jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu (John Lawrence Rutledge) wrote:
>
>> In article <1q96tpINNpcn@gap.caltech.edu> arc@cco.caltech.edu
>> (Aaron Ray Clements) writes:
>> >The Second Amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms.  Clearly
>> >and unequivocally, without infringement.
>
>> Unfortunately the Second Amendment is not as clear as you state.  If last
>> part of it is taken along, it follows what you have said.  The problem
>> I have is with the first part of the single sentence which makes up the
>> amendment.  The Second Amendment is:
>
>> 	A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security
>                         ^^^^^^^ Militia
>
>> 	of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear
>                  ^^^^^ State
>
>> 	arms, shall not be infringed.
>        ^^^^ Arms
>
>You didn't even get the capitalization correct!  Try reading USCA on
>the Constitution, or get any other CORRECT version of the
>Constitution.
>
>> This mention of a well regulated militia is what confuses me.  According
>> to the Federalist Paper's, a well regulated militia has a well defined
>> structure and follows nationally uniform regulations.
>
>Perhaps you should actually READ the Federalist Papers!!
>
>    James Madison, Federalist Paper 46: "Besides the advantage of
>    being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost
>    every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to
>    which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers
>    are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of
>    ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government
>    of any form can admit of.  Notwithstanding the military
>    establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are
>    carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments
>    are afraid to trust the people with arms."
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>    James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, 8 June 1789: "The right
>    of the people to keep and bear... arms shall not be infringed.  A
>    well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people,
>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free
>    country..."
>
>    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Paper 29 (on the organization of
>    the militia): "Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with
>    respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it
>    will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of
>    a year."
>
>    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Paper 29 (speaking of standing
>    armies): "... if circumstances should at any time oblige the
>    government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be
>    formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large
>    body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their
>                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*****
>    own rights and those of their fellow-citizens."
>    ***^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>But *surely* Hamilton and Madison didn't mean the PEOPLE when they
>said "people", right?  That's why the Amendment refers to "the Right
>of the Militia"?...  ;-)
>
>> Your average
>> 17-45 year old male does not fall into the definition.
>
>You're right, the Militia consists of ALL able bodied males (and
>probably females under current interpretation).
>
>> Therefore most
>> members of The Militia, the one the every gun advocate refers to, are
>> not members of a well organized militia and therefore are not directly
>
>The Amendment does nor refer to "well organized", it says "well
>regulated".  I have some targets you may examine if you wish to check
>how _well regulated_ I am.
>
>> mentioned in the amendment.
>
>> If this amendment wanted to allow every member of The Militia to keep
>> and bear arms, why did it specificly mention a "well organized militia"
>> in the SAME SENTENCE as the right to keep and bear arms?
>
>Correct.  That's why the Right is reserved to the People.  And that
>was to insure the People could form a "well regulated Militia", not a
>"well organized militia".
>
>> It could be
>> argued that the first part of the sentence is separate from the last
>> part.  If so, why was it include in the same atomic unit of written
>
>What do Atomic Units have to do with this argument?  Any moron can set
>h_bar = C = 1...
>
>> instead of a separate sentence?
>
>Oh, I see what your question is; Why don't you read the federalist
>Papers?!
>
>    James Madison, Federalist Paper 41 (regarding the "General
>    Welfare" clause): "Nothing is more natural nor common than first
>    to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a
>    recital of particulars."
>
>But what does Madison know about the grammatical style of the 2nd?  He
>only wrote it.
>
>> The amendment also implies that the right to arms has to due with
>> the security of a free state.  The Federalist Paper's mention of a
>> well regulated militia gives many examples of how this militia protects
>> the security of a free state.  All these examples are actions of a
>> very organized force, not some John Q. Public with a gun.
>
>That's obviously because you've never actually *read* the Federalist
>Papers.
>
>> All that the Second Amendment clearly states to me is that the people's
>> right to form well regulated militias shall not be infringed.  That is
>> people have the right to join a well organized militia.  This well
>> organized militia will, of course, provide training in how to use arms
>> and in basic military tactics.  These training members of the militia
>> can keep and bear the arms.
>
>Can't read, huh?  Show me where the document says "well organized
>militia".
>
>> Lastly, reading through the Federalist Paper's on well organized
>> militia it is very clear that many of the reasons for these militias.
>> One reason stated is the protection from a standing army.  These days
>> the standing army could easily defeat a group consisting of every
>> 17-45 year old male and female not in the armied forces.
>
>That is *exactly* why EVERY PERSON should be allowed to own *any*
>weapon currently in use in the armed forces.
>
>> Another
>> reason stated for well organized militias is to reduced the need
>> for a standing army.  Well, the US Armied Forces have been a standing
>> army for more than half the history of the US.
>
>But the major reason is to protect against that very same army.
>
>> It seems to me the whole reason for the Second Amendment, to give
>> the people protection from the US government by guaranteeing that the
>> people can over through the government if necessary, is a little bit
>> of an anachronism is this day and age.  Maybe its time to re-think
>> how this should be done and amend the constitution appropriately.
>
>    Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861: "This
>    country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit
>    it.  Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government,
>    they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or
>    their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."
>
>    Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate
>    over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, 17 August
>    1789: "What, Sir, is the use of a militia?  It is to prevent the
>    establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. ...
>    Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of
>    the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order
>    to raise an army upon their ruins."
>
>So now we know which category Mr. Rutledge is in; He means to destroy
>our Liberties and Rights.
>
>--
>Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
>Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech, Houghton, MI 49931
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>"...when all government... in little as in great things, shall be
>drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render
>powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will
>become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we
>separated."   Thomas Jefferson, 1821
>> In article <1q96tpINNpcn@gap.caltech.edu> arc@cco.caltech.edu
>> (Aaron Ray Clements) writes:
>> >The Second Amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms.  Clearly
>> >and unequivocally, without infringement.
>
>> Unfortunately the Second Amendment is not as clear as you state.  If last
>> part of it is taken along, it follows what you have said.  The problem
>> I have is with the first part of the single sentence which makes up the
>> amendment.  The Second Amendment is:
>
>>       A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security
>                         ^^^^^^^ Militia
>
>>       of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear
>                  ^^^^^ State
>
>>       arms, shall not be infringed.
>        ^^^^ Arms
>
>You didn't even get the capitalization correct!  Try reading USCA on
>the Constitution, or get any other CORRECT version of the
>Constitution.
There are several ways in which one can choose to intrepret any
constitutational issue :
(a) Original intent
(b) Subjectively intrepreted accordiong to political whims of the day.
If we use original intent as the basis for intrepreting the constitution,
it is clear that the founding fathers intended that the individual citizen
be allowed to bear arms similar to those used by soldiers of the day.
For references, I cite :
- Federalist papers
- "The Embarassing Second Ammendment", Yale Law Review,
Prof. Stanford Levinson [sorry, I don't have the date handy]
Prof Levinson sought to prove that the 2nd ammendment did not
convey an individual right, but concluded that it did, hence the
"embarassing" in his title.
- Report of the Subcomittee on the Consititution, United States Sendate,
97th Congress, Second Session February 1982.
- U.S. vs. Verguido Urguidez (Supreme court case in recent years).
Although this case did not pertain to firearms, Justice Rhenquist
notes that the term "the people" is a term of art conveying individual
rights, and specifically cited several used, 2nd ammentment included,
in his opinion.
- Title 10, U.S. Code.  This states that all males between the ages of
18 & 45 not part of the organized militia, and all female officers of
the national guard are part of the unorganized militia.
Feel free to cite any scholarly and historical references you have to
support your position.  I could go on a greater length with my personal
proof by assertion, however, such a technique would carry no more or
less weight that your dubious proofs by assertion.
From: cwwhite@vax2.concordia.ca (Stephen White)
Subject: Re: Gritz/JBS/Liberty Lobby/LaRouche/Christic Insitute/Libertarian/...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Nntp-Posting-Host: vax2.concordia.ca
Organization: Concordia University
Lines: 25
In article <C5L2BC.C2x.1@cs.cmu.edu>, rubinoff+@cs.cmu.edu (Robert Rubinoff) writes...
>In article <93105.230230U23590@uicvm.uic.edu> <U23590@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>Note that Bo Gritz was on the Populist party ticket with David
>>Duke (for veep) in 1988 until he found out that Duke was leading
>>he ticket, when he withdrew his candidacy.  So Gritz gave up his
>>chance to be Vice President of the US just to aviod supporting
>>Duke.
>I'd hardly call that "giving up his chance to be Vice President of the US";
>the chance of the Populist Party ticket winning is essentially nil.  Still,
>it does imply that he doesn't want to be associated with Duke.
>  Robert
Exactly, after all he was in the same party, probably just didn't want the
bad press that being directly associated with Duke would bring.  Conversely,
is his disdain for David Duke supposed to make us ideolize him?  I mean
a stand against neo-nazism ... Whoa!  Now that's progressive!  Come on.
I certainly know that I would refuse and openly denounce my Vice Presidency
if it meant putting him in control.
--Stephen White
| 	"Live simply that others may simply live" --Mohandas K. Gandhi	       |
From: loki@acca.nmsu.edu (Entropic Destroyer)
Subject: Need info on 43:1 and suicide for refutation
Organization: New Mexico State University
Lines: 35
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: kazak.nmsu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
The following is quoted from the tail end of a (rather condescending)
article about Paxton Quigley, that appeared in US Snooze and World Lies,
(sorry... i think it was in the wall street journal...)
and was repeated in the Colorado (people's) Daily, a student newspaper
at the University of Colorado at Boulder.
"A study of residential gunsot deaths in King County, Wash., found that
a gun in the home was 43 times more likely to be used to kill its owner,
spouse, a friend, or child than to kill an intruder.  Studies by the
Western Psychiatric Institute, in Pittsburgh, found that the mere presence
of a gun in the home sharply incresases the likelihood a family member
will commit suicide, even in the absence of psychiatric illness."
I have seen these numbers quoted before, and I have seen very specific
refutation of them quoted as well.  If someone will be so kind as to
email the relevant information, I will write a letter to the editor of
the Co. Daily (which might get published) and send a copy to USN&WR as
well.
Thanx...
--Dan
--
DoD #202 / loki@acca.nmsu.edu / liberty or death / taylordf@ucsu.colorado.edu
Send me something even YOU can't read...
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From: kckluge@eecs.umich.edu (Karl Kluge)
Subject: Re: Gritz/JBS/Liberty Lobby/LaRouche/Christic Insitute/Libertarian/....
In-Reply-To: arf@genesis.MCS.COM's message of 15 Apr 1993 20:57:53 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 21
> From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
> Subject: Re: Gritz/JBS/Liberty Lobby/LaRouche/Christic Insitute/Libertarian/....
> Date: 15 Apr 1993 20:57:53 -0500
>
> I can't speak for the organizations you cited but everywhere you look in
> our society and government, one can see the relentless movement toward
> one world government.  The fact that the media demeans such charished
> values as patriotism, nationalism and protectionism are some of the
> clues....Our porous border both people and trade are an indiciation that
> we have already lost a great deal of sovergnty.
...and I'm sure that people who were big fans of fuedalism pissed and
moaned about the emergence of the modern nation-state. Imagine, the King
allowing serfs their freedom if they could live in the city for a year!
Times change, technology changes, viable forms of social organization
change. While concerns about preserving Western notions of civil liberties
in the face of cultures with very different values is a valid one, it's
a waste of effort to try to turn back the tide. It's much smarter to focus
on trying to make sure that the emerging forms of social organization are
acceptable than it iss to lament the passing of the old forms.
From: hambidge@bms.com
Subject: Re: Some more about gun control...
Reply-To: hambidge@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb
Lines: 51
In article <C5L0n2.5LL@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, jrutledg@cs.ulowell.edu (John Lawrence Rutledge) writes:
>
>So the phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall
>not be infringed" must either qualify or explain the phrase "a well
>regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state."
[stuff deleted]
>Since "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
>infringed" does not describe, modify or make less harsh anything and
>it has nothing to do with grammar or some sort of position or task.
>By process of elimination it must fall into definition #3.  And since
>#3 deals with legal power, the same thing the Constitution does, it
>must be the correct definition in this case.  Therefore, "the right
>of the people to keep and bear Arms" gives legal power to the "well
>regualated militia" and this legal power "shall not be infringed".
Ah, clarification by obfuscation.
Actually, the words "A well regulated Milita, being necessary to the
security of a free state" is a present participle, used as an
adjective to modify 'militia', which is followed by the main clause of
the sentence, the subject being 'the right', the verb 'shall'.  It
asserts that the right to keep and bear arms is essential for
maintaining a milita.  The sentence doesn't restrict the right, or
state or imply possession of the right by anyone or anything other
than the people.  All it does is make a positive statement regarding a
right of the people. The PEOPLE, as in you and me, as in the First,
Fourth, Ninth, Tenth, as well as the Second amendment.
The existence of this right is assumed - it is not granted by the
amendment. There is no stated or implied condition relating the right
to bear arms to the necessity of a well-regulated militia to the security of
a free state.
In other words, the entire sentence says that the right to keep and
bear arms is UNCONDITIONAL.
>So in effort not to force my views and not "to destory our Liberties and
>Rights,"  I state that nothing I have written, or will write, in
>the matter of "Liberties and Rights" is the final word.  For I am only
>one person among many and the final word on "Liberties and Rights" cleary
>and irrevocably belongs to the many.
The final word on liberties and rights should not belong "to the
many".  That is why we have a Constitution.  Otherwise, a tyrrany of
the majority can ensue from "popular" opinion, a concept which you
should be familiar with from the Federalist papers.
Al
[standard disclaimer]
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: The Slaughter
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Lines: 16
[followups to talk.politics.guns]
rl> Russell Lawrence
kr> Karl Rominger
kr> I support the right of any citizen with out a criminal history to own and
use firearms, regardless of race, gender, and RELIGION.
rl> Thanks for admitting that you, yourself, adhere to an illogical dogma.
Well, folks in t.p.guns, want to show how Russell's "illogical dogma" is
wrong?
--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
From: crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com (Ron Phillips)
Subject: Randy Weaver Trial - Day 2
Nntp-Posting-Host: hound
Reply-To: crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com
Organization: "Intergraph Electronics, Mountain View, CA"
Distribution: usa
Lines: 89
This was posted to the firearms-politics mailing list.
==============================================================
Hi Folks;
Wednesday marked day 2, the beginning of the trial.  Opening
statements were given by both the prosecution and the defense,
each side presenting its version of what happenned last August.
The prosecution argued that Weaver and his family moved to
Idaho in 1983 anticipating a battle with the "evil" federal
government.  The prosecution alleges that Weaver sold federal
agents "sawed off" shotguns and later failed to appear for
trial: Despite repeated "good faith" efforts to get Weaver
to surrender peacefully, Weaver refused.  The shootout erupted
when Weaver discovered agents on a surveillance mission and
began firing.  According to the prosecution, three people
were taking an "offensive action" against an FBI helicopter
when an FBI sniper killed Vicki Weaver.
The defense argued that Weaver and his family moved to northern
Idaho in 1983 to practice their religion in peace.  They wanted
simply to be left alone.  Weaver was induced by federal agents to
sell the short-barrelled shotgun (and did not, as the prosecution
alleged, want to become a "regular supplier").  The defense also
argued that the federal government sought to arrest Weaver when
he wouldn't become an informant [it is not specified explicitly,
but I assume that this is a reference to the white separatist
angle of the story.  We'll know more as things develop].  The
failure to appear in court happenned because Weaver was given
an incorrect court date and then indicted before that date.
The shootout occurred when federal agent Arthur Roderick killed
Weaver's dog that was in proximity to Weaver's son, Samuel.  Weaver
then fired in self-defense.  In the ensuing battle, federal
agent William Degan was killed (when his gun was later found,
there were 7 .223 cases nearby and the gun was on semi-automatic:
However, agents were near the body for an extended period of
time and could have played with the select-fire - this will
have to be more fully explained).  Finally, the defense claims
that Vicki Weaver was only going to "look at the body" [not recover?]
of her son when she was cut-down by an FBI sniper.
Prosecution quote: "Weaver wanted that confrontation, and he made
that confrontation." -- Asst. U.S. Attorney Kim Lindquist
Defense quote: "The evidence in this case is going to show that
this is a case where Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris are charged
with crimes they didn't commit in order to cover crimes that
the government did commit."  -- Gerry Spence  [nice soundbite!]
Notes: The _Idaho Statesman_ claims that Weaver supporters
heeded a call from Spence not to repeat yesterday's protests
outside the courthouse.  However, the local NBC affiliate
again had footage on the 10:00 news with 5 supporters including
"Tim" again.  "Tim" claimed he was a skinhead, who were "ordinary,
working class people."  He also claimed he was for "white pride,
not white power."
Outside the courthouse the television crew had an impromptu interview
with Bo Gritz, who charged that the neo-nazi protestors are exactly
what the government wants to smear Randy Weaver.
In an affiliated article carried in the _Idaho Statesman_, about
a dozen lawyers were among the 70 or so people packed into the
courthouse.  These lawyers were present to watch Gerry Spence
in action, and to perhaps learn something from him.  Some
tidbits: Spence flatly told the jurors that he and his son Kent
were volunteering their time to represent Weaver because they
believed in him.  Spence, during his 90-minute opening statement,
repeatedly walked behind Weaver and placed his hands on the
defendants shoulders (Weaver broke down and cried during the
recounting of his wife's death), and Spence compared the "sawed
off" shotgun to driving 56 mph when the limit was 55 (another
good one!).
Today (Thursday, April 15th) the prosecution was scheduled to
begin presenting evidence.
Drew
=============================================================
--
**************************************************************
* Ron Phillips               crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com *
* Senior Customer Engineer                                   *
* Intergraph Electronics                                     *
* 381 East Evelyn Avenue               VOICE: (415) 691-6473 *
* Mountain View, CA 94041              FAX:   (415) 691-0350 *
**************************************************************
From: crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com (Ron Phillips)
Subject: Randy Weaver Trail - Day 3
Nntp-Posting-Host: hound
Reply-To: crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com
Organization: "Intergraph Electronics, Mountain View, CA"
Distribution: usa
Lines: 85
This was posted to the firearms-politics mailing list.
=============================================================
Hi Folks;
Thursday, April 15 marked Day 3 of the trial.
This day marked the first testimony of the trial.  Deputy
U.S. Marshal Larry Cooper took the stand for the prosecution.
The short version is that his testimony was consistent with
the opening statements for the prosecution.
Cooper testified that he had arrived in Spokane (Washington)
on August 17, 1992 to participate in a surveillance operation
with five other deputies near the Weaver cabin.  The team was
using night vision equipment for surveillance, and split up
into two teams of three people.  The six later met at an
observation point above the cabin.  After this, deputies
Cooper, William Degan, and Arthur Roderick began a descent to
scout further possible surveillance sites.
Cooper told the court that Roderick threw two large rocks into
a gully to see, "whether the [Weaver family] dogs would respond."
Striker, the Weaver's yellow lab, started toward them barking
loudly.  Roderick led the three in a run from the area.
They ran through some dense woods into an open area [called the
"fern field"] with the dog in pursuit.  By this time, Kevin
Harris and Samuel Weaver had joined the chase.  The surveillance
team had reached a Y in the road: Cooper decided that they should
take cover in the woods because otherwise they would be an easy
target and might be "shot in the back."
As Degan reached the Y, he spotted Randy Weaver coming down the
road from the cabin ahead.  Weaver was startled but did not fire.
At this moment, Striker reached Degan, and Cooper had to "fend
him off with his gun."  [It is unclear whether this means he
clubbed the dog or shot the dog].  Both Cooper and Degan then
took cover in the woods.  According to Cooper, Kevin Harris and
Samuel Weaver continued walking down the road, apparently not
noticing the two.  After they had passed by on the road, Degan
got up on one knee, raised his gun, and shouted, "Stop!  U.S.
Marshal!"  Harris then "...brought the weapon around at hip level
and fired.  He didn't bring the weapon up to eye level.  I saw
Bill's arm going back, and I knew he had been hit."  Cooper fired
at Harris, and Harris went down.  Cooper then brought his weapon
to bear on Samuel, but did not fire.  At this point, Cooper then
heard two shots to his right.  Samuel Weaver looked in the
direction of the shots, yelled, "You son of a bitch!" and ran
toward them.  Cooper then realized that shots were coming at him
from directly ahead, so he fired a three-round burst at the
cabin.  At this point he then saw Samuel Weaver running toward
the cabin.  When Cooper reached Degan, he placed his first two
fingers on Degan carotid artery, counted two or three beats, and
then his heart stopped.  Shortly thereafter, Roderick and the
other three marshals joined him.  They then all heard a large
burst of gunfire from the area around the cabin.
On cross-examination, David Nevin questioned the point of
throwing rocks into the gulley, asking, "You wanted to lure that
dog out so you could shoot that dog, didn't you?"  Nevin also
pointed out that in last September's testimony, Cooper had
claimed that he spotted Weaver after the dog had left him.
Cooper claimed that he had gone over the events in his head and
decided that Thursday's account was correct.  Nevin continued the
cross-examination by asking what Cooper would have done had an
armed man dressed in full camouflage jumped out of the woods at
him [no answer was available].
Friday, April 16 marks continued cross-examination of Cooper.
Notes: There was no coverage of protestors.
Drew
==============================================================
--
**************************************************************
* Ron Phillips               crphilli@hound.dazixca.ingr.com *
* Senior Customer Engineer                                   *
* Intergraph Electronics                                     *
* 381 East Evelyn Avenue               VOICE: (415) 691-6473 *
* Mountain View, CA 94041              FAX:   (415) 691-0350 *
**************************************************************
From: gs26@prism.gatech.EDU (Glenn R. Stone)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Reply-To: glenns@eas.gatech.edu
Distribution: git
Organization: The Group W Bench
Lines: 36
In <C5sv4r.HFA@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
[and quotes a lot of stuff unnecessarily]
>In article <93869@hydra.gatech.EDU> glenns@eas.gatech.edu writes:
>>
>> [worth posting again ;-]
>>Hey, gang, it's not about duck hunting, or about dark alleys,
>>it's about black-clad, helmeted and booted troops storming
>>houses and violating civil rights under color of law.
>>
>>Are YOU ready to defend YOUR Constitution?
>Its also about crazy fatigue clad survivalist types blasting the
>snot out of people who accidentally stray onto his land in the
>name of 'self defense.'
>Don't get too self-righteous, Mr. gun-toter.
Ain't got a pair of fatigues... and I don't blast people wandering aimlessly,
I ask them what they're doing there... I only blast people who display
obvious violent intent... like black-clad men with weapons climbing thru
second-story windows, or people who break down the door instead of knocking.
Or people who knock my house down with tanks and set it afire.  Sound
familiar yet?
Riddle me this: Why the hell are the CONVICTED CRIMINALS in Ohio getting
the kid glove treatment, and the BD's are burned alive without a trial?
Put aside who started the blaze, I still think any decent shyster can
make a case for cruel and unusual punishment, playing the sounds of
tortured rabbits over the loudspeakers (where's the SPCA in all this?)...
Oh, and that's Mister gun-toter SIR to you, bucko.  Just because you choose
to abandon your rights, leave mine the hell alone, thankyouverymuch.
Glenn R. Stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu)
Impeach Clinton, Reno -- the case is prima facie.
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: criminals & machineguns
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Distribution: usa
Lines: 30
In article <93104.175256U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> Jason Kratz <U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>people are getting killed by gang violence every day?  Every single day I hear
>about more people getting killed by gang violence and see some of the weapons
>that are being confiscated.
Is Kratz claiming that he can reliably visually distinguish an M-16
from an AR-15?  That he can see the difference between a semi-auto and
a full-auto UZI?  That he can see the difference between the various
versions (some full-auto, some semi-auto only) of the M-11/9?
If so, I'd love to hear the details, if only because they'll demonstrate
that Kratz is blowing smoke.
Considering that one can design a gun so that it looks just like
another gun, yet have very different properties, and that that's
quite common....
Most kids in my neighborhood were quite young when they figured out
that my parents car wasn't much like Richard Petty's, even though it
looked just like it (except for the paint job).  Things must have been
different with Kratz.
>Sure it's on TV but why does that make a difference?
No, it doesn't, but that's irrelevant.  If visual inspection of the
outside worked, TV would be acceptable, but since it doesn't, the fact
that it's just as good as seeing in person doesn't mean much.
-andy gave Kratz a chance to back down on this in private
--
From: betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz)
Subject: Weaver trial update
Nntp-Posting-Host: gozer
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club
Lines: 13
I've been running a daily summary of the Randy Weaver/Kevin
Harris trial from here in Boise.  These summaries are sent
primarily to mailing lists.  However, I was wondering if
people would be interested in seeing them here.  Post or
email.
Drew
--
betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
*** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights   ***
*** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc,
semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium
From: lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani)
Subject: Re: Need info on 43:1 and suicide for refutation
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Lines: 203
Here's something Preston Covey (professor of ethics at CMU) wrote:
From: "Preston K. Covey" <covey+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Gun Stats & Mortal Risks
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1993 18:35:05 -0500 (EST)
Folks,
Hail from the nether world.  On February 4th, the Wall Street Journal
carried a front-page article by Erik Larson entitled "Armed Force."  I
felt a reply was in order to his citation of the notorious scare stat
that "A Gun is 43 times more likely to kill than to protect."  I sent
the following to the WSJ.
-----
Gun Stats & Mortal Risks
Preston K. Covey
Erik Larson~s even-handed article on Paxton Quigley (~Armed Force,~
2/4/93, WSJ) cites the world~s most notorious ~statistic~ regarding guns
in the home:  ~A pioneering study of residential gunshot deaths in King
County, Washington, found that a gun in the home was 43 times more
likely to be used to kill its owner, spouse, a friend or child than to
kill an intruder.~  The ~43 times~ stat is everywhere these days;  it
has grown in media lore like the proverbial urban myth: it was inflated
by one pugilistic talk-show pundit to ~93.~  Given the shock value of
the finding, the conclusion of the 1986 New England Journal of Medicine
(NEJM) study is remarkably understated:  ~The advisability of keeping
firearms in the home for protection must be questioned.~
Responsible people should indeed question the risks and benefits of
bringing a firearm into their home.   But what we need to know is this:
What exactly are the risks and benefits?  The NEJM testimony is neither
the whole truth about the benefits nor nothing but the truth about the
risks.  Further, as with motor vehicles, we want to know:  What control
do we have over the risks and benefits?  And, as with the risks of
cancer or heart disease or auto accidents:  How can we minimize the
risks?  Like raw highway death tolls, the NEJM stat is not very helpful
here.
The NEJM finding purports to inform us, but it is framed to warn us
off.  It is widely promulgated in the media as a ~scare stat,~ a
misleading half-truth whose very formulation is calculated to prejudice
and terrify.  The frightful statistic screams for itself:  The risks far
outweigh the benefits, yes?   What fool would run these risks?   If your
car were 43 times more likely to kill you, a loved one, a dear friend or
an innocent child than to get you to your destination,  should you not
take the bus?
Uncritical citation puts the good name of statistics in the bad company
of lies and damned lies.   Surely, we can do better where lives are at
stake.   Let~s take a closer look at this risky business:
The ~43 times~ stat of the NEJM study is the product of dividing the
number of home intruders/aggressors justifiably killed in self-defense
(the divisor) into the number of family members or acquaintances  killed
by a gun in the home (the dividend).  The divisor of this risk equation
is 9: in the study~s five-year sample there were 2 intruders and 7 other
cases of self-defense.  The dividend is 387:  in the study there were 12
accidental deaths, 42 criminal homicides, and 333 suicides.  387 divided
by 9 yields 43.  There were a total of 743 gun-related deaths in King
County between 1978 and 1983,  so the study leaves 347 deaths outside of
homes unaccounted.
The NEJM~s notorious ~43 times~ statistic is seriously misleading on
six counts:
1.  The dividend is misleadingly characterized in the media:  the ~or
acquaintances~ of the study (who include your friendly drug dealers and
neighborhood gang members) is equated to ~friends.~  The implication is
that the offending guns target and kill only beloved family members,
dear friends, and innocent children.  Deaths may all be equally tragic,
but the character and circumstance of both victims and killers are
relevant to the risk.  These crucial risk factors are masked by the
calculated impression that the death toll is generated by witless
Waltons shooting dear friends and friendly neighbors.  This is
criminological hogwash.
2.   The study itself does not distinguish households or environs
populated by people with violent, criminal, or substance-abuse histories
-- where the risk of death is very high -- versus households inhabited
by more civil folk (for example, people who avoid high-risk activities
like drug dealing, gang banging and wife beating) -- where the risk is
very low indeed.  In actuality, negligent adults allow fatal but
avoidable accidents; and homicides are perpetrated mostly by people with
histories of violence or abuse, people who are identifiably and
certifiably at ~high risk~ for misadventure.  To ignore these obvious
risk factors in firearm accidents and homicides is as misleading as
ignoring the role of alcohol in vehicular deaths: by tautology, neither
gun deaths nor vehicular deaths would occur without firearms or
vehicles; but the person and circumstance of the gun owner or driver
crucially affect the risk.
3.  One misleading implication of the way the NEJM stat is framed is
that the mere presence of a gun in the home is much more likely to kill
than to protect, and this obscures -- indeed, disregards -- the role of
personal responsibility.  The typical quotation of this study (unlike
Larson~s) attributes fatal agency to the gun:  ~A gun in the home is 43
times as likely to kill . . . .~  (The Center to Prevent Handgun
Violence, a major promulgator of the NEJM statistic, uses this
particular formulation.)  We can dispense with the silly debate about
whether it~s people or guns that accomplish the killing:  again, by
tautology, gun  deaths would not occur without the guns.  The question
begged is how many deaths would occur anyway, without the guns.  In any
case, people are the death-dealing agents, the guns are their lethal
instruments.  The moral core of the personal  risk factors in gun deaths
are personal responsibility and choice.  Due care and responsibility
obviate gun accidents; human choice mediates homicide and suicide (by
gun or otherwise).  The choice to own a gun need not condemn a person to
NEJM~s high-risk pool.  The gun does not create this risk by itself.
People have a lot to say about what risk they run with guns in their
homes.  For example, graduates of Paxton Quigley~s personal protection
course do not run the touted ~43 times~ risk any more than skilled and
sober drivers run the same risks of causing or suffering vehicular death
as do reckless or drunk drivers.  Undiscriminating actuarials disregard
and obscure the role of personal responsibility and choice, just as they
disregard and obscure the role of socio-economic, criminological and
other risk-relevant factors in firearm-related death.  This is why we
resent insurance premiums and actuarial consigment to risk pools whose
norms disregard our individualities.  Fortunately, nothing can consign
us to the NEJM risk pool but our own lack of choice or responsibility in
the matter.
4.  Suicide accounts for 84% of the deaths by gun in the home in the
NEJM study.  As against the total deaths by gun in King County,
including those outside the home, in-house suicides are 44% of the total
death toll, which is closer to the roughly 50% proportion found by other
studies.  Suicide is a social problem of a very different order from
homicide or accidents.  The implication of the NEJM study is that these
suicides might not occur without readily available guns.  It is true
that attempted suicide by gun is likely to succeed.  It is not obviously
true that the absence of a gun would prevent any or all of these
suicides.  This is widely assumed or alleged, but the preponderance of
research on guns and suicide actually shows otherwise, that this is
wishful thinking in all but a few truly impulsive cases.  (See:  Bruce
L. Danto et al., The Human Side of Homicide,  Columbia University Press,
1982;  Charles Rich et al.,  ~Guns and Suicide,~  American Journal of
Psychiatry,  March 1990.)  If suicides were removed from the dividend of
the NEJM study~s risk equation, the ~43 times~ stat would deflate to
~six.~  The inclusion of suicides in the NEJM risk equation -- like the
causes, durability, or interdiction of suicidal intent itself -- is a
profoundly debatable matter.  Quotations of the NEJM study totally
disregard this issue.
5.  Citations of the NEJM study also mislead regarding the estimable
rate of justifiable and excusable homicide.  Most measures, like the
NEJM homicide rate, are based on the immediate disposition of cases.
But many homicides initially ruled criminal are appealed and later ruled
self-defense.  In the literature on battered women, immediate case
dispositions are notorious for under-representing the rate of
justifiable or excusable homicide. Time~s January 18, 1993, cover story
on women ~Fighting Back~ reported one study~s finding that 40% of women
who appeal have their murder convictions thrown out.  Time~s July 17,
1989, cover story on a week of gun deaths reported 51% of the domestic
cases as shootings by abuse victims; but only 3% of the homicides were
reported as self-defense.  In a May 14, 1990, update, Time  reported
that 12% of the homicides had eventually been ruled self-defense. In
Time~s sample, the originally reported rate of self-defense was in error
by a factor of four.  The possibility of such error is not acknowledged
by promulgators of the NEJM statistic.
6.  While both the dividend and the product of the NEJM risk equation
are arguably inflated, the divisor is unconscionably misleading.  The
divisor of this equation counts only aggressors who are killed,  not
aggressors who are successfully thwarted without being killed or even
shot at.   The utility of armed self-defense is the other side of the
coin from the harms done with guns in homes.  What kind of moral idiocy
is it to measure this utility only in terms of killings ?  Do we measure
the utility of our police solely in terms of felons killed  -- as
opposed to the many many more who are otherwise foiled, apprehended, or
deterred?  Should we not celebrate (let alone count ) those cases where
no human life is lost as successful armed defenses?  The question posed
to media that cite the NEJM scare stat is this:  Why neglect the
compendious research on successful armed defense, notably by
criminologist Gary Kleck (Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America ,
Aldine de Gruyter, 1992)?
Kleck~s estimations of the rate and risk of defensive firearm use are
based on victimization surveys as well as other studies:  the rate is
high (about one million a year) and the risk is good (gun defenders fare
better than anyone, either those who resort to other forms of resistance
or those who do not resist).  Dividing one million gun defenses a year
by 30,000 annual gun deaths (from self-defense, homicides, suicides, and
accidents) yields 33.  Thus, we can construct a much more favorable
statistic than the NEJM scare stat:
A gun is 33 times more likely to be used to defend against assault or
other crime than to kill anybody.
Of course, Kleck~s critics belittle the dividend of this calculation;
what is good news for gun defenders is bad news for gun control.  We
should indeed question the basis and method of Kleck~s high estimation
of defensive firearm use, as I have questioned the NEJM statistic.
Clearly, the issue of how to manage mortal risks is not settled by
uncritical citation of statistics.   One thing troubles me still:  we
can hardly escape the unquestioned NEJM scare stat in our media,  but we
hardly ever find Kleck~s good work mentioned,  even critically.
--
Larry Cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com
From: robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe)
Subject: Senator Patty Murrey's tax proposal
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 19
If you haven't heard yet, US Senator Patty Murrey, a Mom in
tennis shoes, is planning to introduce legislation to tax
all handgun transactions and increase dealer licnese costs in
order to raise money to cover the costs of un-insured shooting
victums.  She plans to start with $2500.00 per year dealer fees
and $40.00 or so, depending on the type of firearm, per gun
transaction.  She plans to make it federal.
She was elected in Washington state under the trade mark as
just a mom in tennis shoes.  She can be written to via the
United States Senate, Washinton DC.  She is looking for your
tennis shoes.  So if you have a pair please send them to her
with your feelings regarding this tax.
She claims she has heard little from the opposition.
Lets inundate her!
--
BIGOT!  The definition of a bigot is a conservative winning an argument!
From: ccdarg@dct.ac.uk (Alan Greig)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 19
In article <C5stLG.Fwq@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
> Sorry, guy, you got it wrong.  ATF was pumping tear gas into the compound.
> The Branch Davidians (going along with their apocolyptic faith) set their
> own compound on fire killing all but 9 or so.  No children survived.
Seeing as how people are willing to quote the FBI quoting cultists
who just yesterday were deranged and not to be trusted (hmm the FBI
or the cultists...) I think I'll quote the BBC quoting (actually voice
interview) one of the two British survivors. He claimed that the fire
started when the tanks caused an internal wooden wall/roof to collapse
knocking over kerosene lamps and that they had no suicide plan.
Maybe true, partly true, or false.
--
Alan Greig                            Janet: A.Greig@uk.ac.dct
Dundee Institute of Technology	   Internet: A.Greig@dct.ac.uk
Tel: (0382) 308810                 (Int +44 382 308810)
** Never underestimate the power of human stupidity **
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: Government Exlanations for WACO
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting
Lines: 8
When you have no principles, you can't admit that someone else might,
and everyone who acts differently from what you expect can only be a nutcase.
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
I'm beginning to look forward to reaching the %100 allocation of taxes
to pay for the interest on the national debt. At that point the
federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds.
From: ccdarg@dct.ac.uk (Alan Greig)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 22
In article <C5tEnu.112F@ns1.nodak.edu>, green@plains.NoDak.edu (Bill Green) writes:
> And a few other questions.  Like I said, I believe the actions taken, in
> general, were proper.  But I still have some reservations.
We've heard a lot of talk about brainwashing in Waco but the brainwashing
of the general population never ceases to amaze me. Here is an
example of action being taken which results in the worst possible
outcome and despite people's deep intuition telling them something
is wrong the programming will still cut in and say that the
agents probably acted in good faith. NO THEY DIDN'T. They either did
not have enough information to act in good faith or else they acted
knowing the risk. Sums up human stupidity all over and one of these
days it will destroy the fucking planet: "Oh sorry. Didn't think they
would respond by launching a strike. All our best calculations told
us they were bluffing."
--
Alan Greig                            Janet: A.Greig@uk.ac.dct
Dundee Institute of Technology	   Internet: A.Greig@dct.ac.uk
Tel: (0382) 308810                 (Int +44 382 308810)
** Never underestimate the power of human stupidity **
From: ccdarg@dct.ac.uk (Alan Greig)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 32
In article <1993Apr21.053035.29591@mcs.kent.edu>, mhamilto@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (The Lawnmowerman) writes:
> In article <1r1j1l$4t@transfer.stratus.com>, cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>> In article <1993Apr20.143255.12711@mcs.kent.edu>, mhamilto@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (The Lawnmowerman) writes:
>>
>> Oh, then, I guess that shooting THOSE kind of babies is all right.
>>
>> You sick bastard.
>> --
>>
>> cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
>> OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
>>
>
> Why thanks for your reply to my post.  By the way, I never, never ever said
> that it was right to shoot "THOSE kind" of babies.  However it was the Branch
> Davidian people in there that insisted on staying there with their "savior"
> (yeah right budy boy) because he had brain-washed them into believing that
> what ever he says is the truth, even if means that they are to give up their
> lives for <<<<HIS>>>> cause.  Therefore it is Davids fault and not the ATF's
> who gave them 50 to 51 days to get out, this was 50 days to many for me and
For goodness sake if they had fired a cruise missile at the compound more
people would have come out alive. It was obvious to anyone with the remotest
contact with reality that such an outcome was likely (not just possible)
however the fire started. As, Mr Lawnmower, you seem to have already entered
your own little virtual reality I guess you can't be expected to understand
things in the real universe.
--
Alan Greig                            Janet: A.Greig@uk.ac.dct
Dundee Institute of Technology	   Internet: A.Greig@dct.ac.uk
Tel: (0382) 308810                 (Int +44 382 308810)
** Never underestimate the power of human stupidity **
From: ccdarg@dct.ac.uk (Alan Greig)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 18
In article <C5sIAJ.Ks7@news.udel.edu>, roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
> So, why didn't the BD's leave when the gas was first introduced much
> earlier in the morning?  Didn't they care about the children?
>
> Why didn't they release the children weeks ago?
Because most of the children were with their parent(s). Do you understand
that concept? Here's a bunch of people who believe in their minds that
the forces of Satanic evil are outside and you expect them to hand over
their own children? Were you born that stupid or does it take a lot
of effort?
--
Alan Greig                            Janet: A.Greig@uk.ac.dct
Dundee Institute of Technology	   Internet: A.Greig@dct.ac.uk
Tel: (0382) 308810                 (Int +44 382 308810)
** Never underestimate the power of human stupidity **
From: ccdarg@dct.ac.uk (Alan Greig)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 24
In article <1993Apr20.163730.16128@guinness.idbsu.edu>, betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz) writes:
> In article <C5rynw.Iz8@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>>And I suppose the FBI also prevented them from coming out with their
>>hands up while national tv cameras watch.
>>
> Watch from where?  Two miles away?  Far enough away that whatever
> really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of
> a humiliated agency that said (quote!) "Enough is enough."
As I understand it was considered unsafe for the tv networks to get
any closer. Surely the networks can judge the risks of reporting
for themselves. I haven't noticed CNN being banned from Baghdad
hotels yet despite the (all too real) risk of having a cruise
missile land in the lobby. Incidentally has that ever been explained
or are we to assume that out of the whole of the city an off-course
missile just happened to hit that hotel at a probability of about
1 in some very large number?
Unsafe for who I wonder?
--
Alan Greig                            Janet: A.Greig@uk.ac.dct
Dundee Institute of Technology	   Internet: A.Greig@dct.ac.uk
Tel: (0382) 308810                 (Int +44 382 308810)
** Never underestimate the power of human stupidity **
From: ccdarg@dct.ac.uk (Alan Greig)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 20
In article <1993Apr20.195636.17742@guinness.idbsu.edu>, betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz) writes:
> --
> betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
> *** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
> *** when you outlaw rights, only outlaws will have rights   ***
> *** spook fodder: fema, nsa, clinton, gore, insurrection, nsc,
>     semtex, neptunium, terrorist, cia, mi5, mi6, kgb, deuterium
If you really want to trigger the scanners then move the keywords
above the -- signature start bit... You'll only trip them once in
a sig (plus every so often it will flag one for human intervention
just to be sure)
I might not be being serious.
--
Alan Greig                            Janet: A.Greig@uk.ac.dct
Dundee Institute of Technology	   Internet: A.Greig@dct.ac.uk
Tel: (0382) 308810                 (Int +44 382 308810)
** Never underestimate the power of human stupidity **
From: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard)
Subject: Re: Who's next?  Mormons and Jews?
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Reply-To: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: clesun.central.sun.com
>>This is a stretch.  In fact, a great many of the persecuted Indians were
>>Christian, a great many.  It would be simpler to state the obvious, that
>>white people wanted land the Indians dominated or threatened.  I really
>>don't think the government cared a hill of beans about the Indians' religion.
>My Native American Girlfriend asks: "If the government really doesn't
>'care a hill of beans' about our religion, how come they're still
>busting us for it in Oregon, Washington, and a few other places?
>You'd be a Christian, too, if the U.S. Army marched you into church
>at gunpoint."
Are you saying that the Indians who became Christians did so because the
US Army marched them into church at gunpoint?
This will be news to the Indians of the Great Lakes and upper Mississippi
basin-- of the Southwest-- of Mexico and South America-- who converted even
before there was such a thing as the US.  Are you saying that Indians are
incapable of coming to a decision themselves about their religion without
being forced to at gunpoint?  What about the Christian Cherokees who were
given the boot by the US government after the Civil War... because the
Cherokee nation gave mild support to the Confederacy, since they themselves
owned black slaves.  No, reducing it all to a matter of religion is to
support a much too narrow view of history.
I've never heard of a single treaty, whether broken by the US government or
not (were any NOT????), that said, if you guys convert to Christianity, you
get to keep all the land you claim.  No, treaties were invariably about land...
it meant ceding Indian claims to the government.  Sometimes in return the
US government promised the hunter-gatherer tribes (and plenty of tribes were
already farming for centuries, but we don't hear about non-Plains Indians
in movies) food and training in return for taking up a non-nomadic existence.
Promises, of course, which all to often proved empty.
From: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard)
Subject: Re: Riddle me this...
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Reply-To: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: clesun.central.sun.com
In article 1r1lp1INN752@mojo.eng.umd.edu, chuck@eng.umd.edu (Chuck Harris - WA3UQV) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.050550.4660@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> j979@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (FULLER  M) writes:
>>Does a "not harmful" gassing mean that you can, with a little willpower,
>>stay inside indefinitely without suffering any serious health problems?
>>
>>If so, why was CS often employed against tunnels in Vietnam?
>>
>>What IS the difference, anyway?
>
>CS "tear-gas" was used in Vietnam because it makes you wretch so hard that
>your stomach comes out thru your throat.  Well, not quite that bad, but
>you can't really do much to defend yourself while you are blowing cookies.
>
>Chuck Harris - WA3UQV
>chuck@eng.umd.edu
>
Interesting... after several hours worth of exposure, do you still posess
the presence of mind to be able to determine how to escape from an inferno
surrounding you?  In other words, is it possible that the prolonged gassing
disoriented the wackos enough that possibility of escape was rendered
questionable?
From: wdstarr@athena.mit.edu (William December Starr)
Subject: Cost/Benefit Analysis  (was FBI Director's Statement...)
Organization: Northeastern Law, Class of '93
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: nw12-326-1.mit.edu
In-reply-to: costley@solo.eng.hou.compaq.com (Brett Costley)
In article <1993Apr20.212028.17463@twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com>,
costley@solo.eng.hou.compaq.com (Brett Costley) said:
>> *sigh* I just DON'T understand why they couldn't have waited Koresh&Co
>> out.  [jlpicard@austin.ibm.com]
>
> Uh, maybe because it was costing hundreds of thousands of dollars a
> day to just sit and wait.
Yeah.  We don't want to spend too much money preserving lives, after
all.  Escpecially when they're all just a bunch of crazy fanatic
cultists anyway, instead of normal people.
[The above is supposed to be dripping with sarcasm, but I'm too burned
out right now (get it? "burned out" ha ha!) to tell if it's working.
Look, folks, what David Koresh and his followers were was _broken_.  It
takes a certain amount of flexibility and insanity to survive in this
world and they didn't have enough of it and that wasn't their fault.  So
please stop dancing on their graves, okay?]
-- William December Starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu>
From: hambidge@bms.com
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Reply-To: hambidge@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb
Lines: 20
In article <C5sv88.HJy@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
>In article <1r1j3n$4t@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>>In article <1r19tp$5em@bigboote.WPI.EDU>, mfrhein@wpi.WPI.EDU (Michael Frederick Rhein) writes:
>>
>>> >napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it.
>>>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day
>>> in Texas.
>>
>>Do YOU eat all your food cold?
>
>Ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves?  Very popular.
>Electric stoves outside metro-areas especially.
Ever hear about cutting off the electricity? That was done.
How effective is an electric stove then?
Al
[standard disclaimer]
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 56
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <C5tEnu.112F@ns1.nodak.edu> green@plains.NoDak.edu (Bill Green)
writes:
> Just to shed some light on the fire, it was widely reported (AP, etc.) that
> there WERE several witnesses to BD folks starting the fires.  It has also
> been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once, which
> rules out a Bradley knocking over a lamp, etc. as the cause.
"Widely reported", eh?  Remember, this has had a news blackout since day 2.
The FBI is the single, sole, source of these rumors.  It may be the truth, but
it may not be.  We may never know.  We MUST question it, though.  Why no media
coverare?  What were they hiding?
>
> What I would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident.  I
> believe the moves made were right and proper, but I still have some problems
> with some of the tactics.  After watching the ABC special on it tonight, as
> well as CNN and Nightline, I question some of the ATF and FBI actions.
>
> 1) Could it have been possible to have taken Koresh outside the compound at
> some time before the Feb. 28th raid?
>
It would seem so.
> 2) Could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome.
>
They would still be alive, today.  Another day is another chance.
> 3) Were FBI actions (blaring loudspeakers, etc.) the "right" course of
action?
>
I think it contributed to the outcome.  Folks that are sleep deprived tend not
to think clearly
> And a few other questions.  Like I said, I believe the actions taken, in
> general, were proper.  But I still have some reservations.
>
I feel strongly they were NOT proper.
> One other point, I'm no fan of Janet Reno, but I do like the way she had the
> "balls" to go ahead and take full responsibility.  Seems like the waffle boy
> had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue.
As expected.  If it had come out well, he would not have hesitated to take full
credit.
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 47
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <C5tKI1.C8s@rice.edu> fontenot@ravl.rice.edu (Dwayne Jacques
Fontenot) writes:
> In <C5tEnu.112F@ns1.nodak.edu> green@plains.NoDak.edu (Bill Green) writes:
> >Just to shed some light on the fire, it was widely reported (AP, etc.) that
> >there WERE several witnesses to BD folks starting the fires.  It has also
> >been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once, which
> >rules out a Bradley knocking over a lamp, etc. as the cause.
>
> Consider this: The BDs had more than one lamp; The tanks made more than
> one hole in the building. Did anyone else notice on the video that it
> appeared that wherever there was smoke coming out of the building, there
> was a tank nearby?
>
> The fact that it appears that fires started in several places does not
> rule out anything.
I watched it live, and have re-watched it several times, and from the press
vantage point, there was only one starting point visible, where the tank
punched in on the windward side, and the winds whipped that fire across the
whole, dry, wooden, structure in minutes.  Faned by the 30 mph gusts, and the
Hueys.   If there were other fires started, they were not visible, nor were
they needed to cause the flame progression I observed.
>
> Also, where are these several witnesses? The way I heard it (from the FBI
> spokesman on CNN) the "witnesses" were all people driving the tanks.
>
All witnesses get thier paychecks from the FBI.
> >One other point, I'm no fan of Janet Reno, but I do like the way she had the
> >"balls" to go ahead and take full responsibility.  Seems like the waffle boy
> >had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue.
>
> Too bad nothing will happen to her or him. The FBI and the media have
> done their job well.
>
Yep.  They media has endorsed the FBI version without question.  Sad.
> Dwayne Jacques Fontenot
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Subject: Re: Re: Guns GONE. Good Riddance !
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group
Lines: 13
/ iftccu:talk.politics.guns / Jason Kratz <U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> /  3:34 pm  Apr 18, 1993 /
>>Surrender your arms. Soon enough, officers will be around to collect
>>them. Resistance is useless. They will overwhelm you - one at a time.
>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Listen buddy, if you're going to quote Star Trek get the quote right.  It was
>"Resistance is futile".  Get it right the next time :-)
Sounds like a VOGON quote to me..... Perhaps YOU should READ more widely
instead of watching that idiot box....
Rick.
From: phd85@seq1.keele.ac.uk (D.H. Holden)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Lines: 9
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: seq1.cc.keele.ac.uk
From article <1qvjh9INNh4l@hp-col.col.hp.com>, by dduff@col.hp.com (Dave Duff):
> NUT CASE PANICS!!!!JUMPS THE GUN ON THE NET BEFORE GETTING FACTS STRAIGHT!!!!
Brilliant I like it!
--
Dave Holden Phys. Dept. |  Email:
keele university.       | phd85@uk.ac.keele.seq1
keele. staffs. England. |
-----------------------------------------------------------x
From: arc@cco.caltech.edu (Aaron Ray Clements)
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 47
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu
Thomas Parsli <thomasp@ifi.uio.no> writes:
>I don't remember the figures EXACTLY, but there were about 3500 deaths in Texas
>in 1991 that was caused by guns.....
>This is more than those beeing killed in car-ACCIDENTS!
>(Yes, there could be that low sentences or high poverty could influence the
>figures but they're still *pretty* high right??)
>I also believe Texas has some of the most liberal 'gun-laws' in USA......
In Texas, you cannot carry a handgun.  Period.  Either concealed or open.
And your numbers are misleading; they include suicides and accidents.  The
real number from the Department of Public Safety:
Murders, Non-neg hom		Car fatalities
1991			2651			  3079
1992			2240			  3057
Texas only has "liberal" gun laws as far as purchasing a firearm; aside
from that, it's probably more restrictive than most states as far as carry
goes.
>One state (don't remember which, Texas??) tried to impose a rule that you could
>only buy ONE gun each MONTH. Think you all know what happened.....
The state was Virginia, and the law passed.
>I respect the right to defend yourself, but that right should not inflict on
>other people.
That right only inflicts on those who threaten my rights to life,
liberty, the pursuit of happiness, etc., in the first place.  I am not
a criminal, and I don't indiscriminately fire my weapons at random.
So please explain how I am "inflicting" anything on other people.
>	This is not a .signature.
>	It's merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith
>	and to bring down the evil Internet.
>                        Thomas Parsli
>                        thomasp@ifi.uio.no
aaron
arc@cco.caltech.edu
From: arc@cco.caltech.edu (Aaron Ray Clements)
Subject: Re: Rewording the Second Amendment (ideas)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 41
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu
dfo@vttoulu.tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas) writes:
>Nerve gas and mustard gas are well defined.  Other poisonous
>gasses should be individually banned only if it can be shown that there
>is no use not related to weaponry.  Licenses should be available for
>research purposes on such chemicals.
>I am not a lawyer, but these ideas could certainly be a basis for
>definitions.
I hope you realize how trivial it is to manufacture these compounds.  Given
about $10k in lab equipment and chemicals (which are commercially available)
and given the knowledge that I have (graduating BS, Ch, 1993) I could
synthesize enough of these compounds to make a serious dent in the population
of several major US cities.  As also noted, the knowledge is there for
the production of nuclear weapons.  It's not even that restricted.  The
only thing is the expense.
Now I'm not going around making these things, but it's not 'cause of any
law; I simply don't get any marginal benefit out of killing anyone.  Any
law you enact in this respect is only going to give you the ability to
add a charge against someone who does make and use said weapons.  In the
case of chemical agents, I seriously doubt that you would even know that
someone had set up a lab until after the weapons had been used.
Part of the trouble with the chemical-weapons ban treaty between the US
and the USSR is that many of the precursors to chemical weapons such as
GB and Sarin, etc., is that they have very valid commercial uses, and
it is very easy to divert those precursors to chemical weapons manufacture
without anyone knowing about it.
>>< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
>><  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
>--
>doug foxvog
>douglas.foxvog@vtt.fi
aaron
arc@cco.caltech.edu
From: se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot)
Subject: reference needed....
Organization: Doctoral student, Materials Science and Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 22
Does anybody have any solid data on how many legally owned versus
illegally owned firearms are used in crime.  I know the number of
legally owned guns used in crime is small, but I would like a number,
and a reference if possible.
Data should be e-mailed to me.
Open discussion should be directed to talk.politics.guns
-Seth
__________________________________________________________________________
[unlike cats] dogs NEVER scratch you when you wash them. They just
become very sad and try to figure out what they did wrong. -Dave Barry
Seth Eliot                    Dept of Material Science and Engineering
Carnegie Mellon Univerity,   Pittsburgh, PA
ARPA    :eliot+@cmu.edu       |------------------------------------------
or    se08+@andrew.cmu.edu |
Bitnet:  se08%andrew@cmccvb   |
------------------------------|
From: 0005111312@mcimail.com (Peter Nesbitt)
Subject: Need Senate Bill numbers and House Resolution numbers
Lines: 30
Sorry for posting this here, but noone has replied to my post from the politics
side of the group.
I want to get involved in the fight to save our gun rights.  But first, I need
to get a little more educated.  I've been reading all the magzines and books I
can get my hands on, and sifting through hundreds of messages here in the
Internet.
I want to obtain a COMPLETE list of Senate Bill and House Resolution
names/numbers.
Can anyone tell me how/where to obtain this info?  Surely there has to be a
way to obtain copies of anti-gun legislation from those *&%$#@'s in Washington.
Any help is appreciated.
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Peter D. Nesbitt |     Air Traffic Controller     | PNESBITT@MCIMAIL.COM    |
|                  |       Oakland Bay TRACON       |                         |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  CBR600F2 Pilot  |       NRA Member CCX1380F      |  S&W .41 Magnum Carrier |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 138
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <C5tLxr.1xq@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
writes:
> In article <1r21g2INNeah@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De
Arras) writes:
> >In article <C5sou8.LnB@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
> >writes:
> >> In article <1993Apr20.163730.16128@guinness.idbsu.edu>
betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
> >(Andrew Betz) writes:
> >> >In article <C5rynw.Iz8@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
> >writes:
> >> >>And I suppose the FBI also prevented them from coming out with their
> >> >>hands up while national tv cameras watch.
> >> >>
> >> >Watch from where?  Two miles away?  Far enough away that whatever
> >> >really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of
> >> >a humiliated agency that said (quote!) "Enough is enough."
> >>
> >> Please tell me what you think would have happened had the people
> >> come out with their hands up several weeks ago.
> >>
> >It didn't happen.
>
> And who is responsible for it not happening?
> Certainly not the children.  Koresh was calling the shots.  He was
> talking with his lawyer and the FBI.  Since others were released safely,
> there is no sane reason for keeping the children inside the compound.
>
The FBI and Koresh were calling the shots.  And there were very sane reasons
for keeping the children, if they let them go, the parents would NEVER see them
again.  That is not an easy choice, in spite of you cold attitude about it.
> >> >>scenario that is simplest and most plausible.  I do not generally
> >> >>believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely
> >> >>scenarios.
> >> >
> >> >The FBI sent letters to Martin Luther King's wife insinuating
> >> >that MLK was having an affair!  Again, please tell us exactly
> >> >how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government.
> >>
> >> More than someone who would not release children from the compound.
> >>
> >Obviously.  You are an authority worshiper.
>
> Not at all.  Are you a Koresh worshiper?
I am a constitution worshiper.  You quite obviously eat anything the
authorities feed you, without doubt, which makes you no different that a Koresh
worshiper
>
> >> I.e., more than David Koresh/Vernon Howell/"Jesus Christ".
> >> I saw lengthy excerpts from an Australian documentary made in
> >> 1992 that clearly showed that this was a cult.
> >
> >Give me a camera, and time with you, and I can present excerpts that show
you
> >to be a cult leader.  Guarenteed.
>
> Thanks for my laugh of the day!  Definitely a very silly supposition.
>
If you do not believe this, you are truly naive.  It is not only possible, it
is easy.  I worked in the broadcast profession, at a network station, in the
late 70s, I know what I'm saying here.  Embarrasing footage is easy to get, add
a little sinister music, and the right voice-over, and I'll have you mother
agreeing to commit you.
> >You should at least view the whole
> >documentary before you claim it as a source.
>
> I would if I could.  The news show that showed the lengthy excerpts also
> had interviews with the filmmaker who made the documentary who basically
> confirmed what was shown in the excerpts from the time he spent at the
> compound in 1992.
>
The news shows were looking for excerpts which backed their position.  Do you
think they would show excerpts which disproved their points?
> >> I am not pleased with the BATF handling of the affair.  I think they
> >> bungled it badly from the start.  But I don't think they are
> >> responsible for the fire, which started in two different places.
> >
> >Two places, eh?  You saw this?  Or did the wonderful FBI tell you this?
> >I saw one place.
>
> I believe that this was reported by local radio reporters on site.
> A fire started in a three story tower at the same time as the two
> story window shown on the tv coverage.
>
The reports of multi-starts came solely from the FBI.  Anyone observing the
fire from the available video would be hard pressed to see more than one point
of fire.  Which spread across the compound as a uniform rate.
> >> >>The BATF is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair.
> >> >>But to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is
> >> >>ludicrous.
> >> >
> >> >I suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to
> >> >risk small arms fire to get some good footage.  These people
> >> >were told to get the hell out of camera range.  Why?
> >
> >Couldn't answer this one, eh?  This is the most important question of all,
it
> >is the root cause of all the other suspicion.
>
> I thought about mentioning how Reagan and the military treated the press
> in Grenada and how that set the precedent, but decided it wasn't worthy
> of discussion.  If the news reporter got shot, you can bet his family
> would sue the government for letting him into the danger area.
No reported has ever sued the government for such a situation.  They know the
dangers.  Remember, the BATF invited the initial coverage. And how about a
simple, remote-controlled, camera or two?  There were ways to provide media
access.  The FBI obviously just didn't want any.
>
> The root cause of suspicion in my mind is why 100 people wouldn't flee
> a building that had numerous exits during the 30 minutes time it took
> to burn down.  Or why didn't they flee hours earlier when the tear gas was
> first introduced?  I can find no rational explanation for their behavior.
>
I can find several.  Tear gas and smoke making it impossible to remove the
barricades.  Flames blocking exits to the saferooms. Perhaps the gun shots were
from the FBI, keeping them pinned in?  Who knows?
> --
>
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 147
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <C5tnGt.224@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
writes:
> In article <1r21vqINNeb8@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De
Arras) writes:
> >In article <C5spov.LrE@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
> >writes:
> >> In article <1r0qsrINNc61@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De
> >Arras) writes:
> >> >In article <C5s0Ds.J54@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
> >> >writes:
> >> >> I agree that they deserved a trial.  They had more than 40 days to come
> >> >> out and get their trial.  They chose to keep the children with them and
> >> >> to stay inside.  They chose to stay inside even after they were tear
> >gassed.
> >> >> I do not find these actions rational.  Even Noriega was smart enough to
> >> >> give up and go for the trial he deserved.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Mr. Roby, you are a government sucking heartless bastard.
> >>
> >> Unworthy of comment.
> >
> >But apparently true.  My opinion, only, of course.
>
> So, your opinion is truth.  I see...  :-)
>
Still mastering the language, eh?  Notice the use of "apparently".
> >> >Humans died
> >> >yesterday, humans who would not have died if the FBI had not taken the
> >> >actions
> >> >they did.  That is the undeniable truth.  I cried for them.
> >>
> >> Nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty.
> >> That is undeniable truth.
> >
> >No, it is not.  It is possible the FBI planned for this to happen, and the
> >gunfire heard was the FBI keeping the folks inside.  I'm not proposing this
as
> >the way it went down, but just to point out that it's not "undeniable" that
if
> >they walked out yesterday, they would be alive today.
>
> You can believe that if you wish.  It is undeniable, however, that people
> have left the compound unharmed and alive earier in the standoff.
>
> And since their leader was preaching that they would have an apocalypse, you
> can not say undeniably that there wouldn't have been a mass suicide if the
> FBI had simply stayed outside and waited another 51 days.
>
I'm not denying that at all.  But every day is another chance for a good
ending, why push it?  Mr. Roby, you are going to die, anyway, why not today?
Every moment of life is precious.
> >> My heart bleeds just as much as yours for
> >> the children who were never released given 51 days of ample opportunities
> >> to do so.  My heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious
devotion
> >> to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up
> >> and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning.
> >
> >My heart "bleeds" for no one.  You are the "bleeding heart".  And I'm sure
> >beyond any possible doubt that you do not feel for those people as I do.
You
> >can not say the heartless things you have said if you did.
>
> I am the heartless bleeding heart?  You are not making sense.
No, you are the heartless "bleeding heart".  A flaming liberal who "cares
deeply", who "feels your pain".
> You seem to have no concern that someone would keep children inside this
> compound when they had 51 days to let them out.  That sounds pretty heartless
> to me.
>
You have continually raised this issue, without any understanding of the bonds
between parent and child.  It is not easy to say a final goodbye to your
children, I do not think I could do it, either.  If that makes me heartless, so
be it.  How many children do you have?  I have three.
> I just heard on the news that some of the survivors regret they hadn't
> stayed in the inferno to prove their loyalty to Koresh.  This makes me
> sad and sick.
>
It just makes me sad.  I never claimed Koresh was an angel.
> >> >You seem to say
> >> >they got what they deserved.
> >>
> >> I do not think this.  However, if they did set the fire (which started in
> >> more than one place and spread very quickly), then they got what they
> >> wanted and put into motion themselves.
> >
> >"they got what they wanted".  What kind of creature are you that you can
> >believe this?
>
> Have you ever heard of Jonestown?
> The sad thing is the people inside the compound were the authority
> worshipers and their only authority was Koresh/Howell.   If these
> people were able to think for themselves, there would likely be a lot
> more survivors today.  Koresh preached a fiery apocalypse as early as
> last year.
>
I made the same authority worshiper point about you a few lines back.  And once
again, Jonestown, however sick it was, was doing OK, until "the Authorities"
showed up and pushed a fragile person over the edge.
A bull in a china shop.
> >> I see the BATF is going to be investigated by the Justice Dept. and likely
> >> by Arlen Spectre and congress.  This is good.  They have bungled the
affair
> >> from the start.
> >
> >We agree on this.  Now lets have your God, the FBI, investigated, too.
>
> By all means, the FBI should be investigated, too.
> BTW, I thought the second ammendment was God.  :-)
>
Nope, the constitution in total is, for me.  If you think the RKBA is all I'm
about, you misjudge me.
> >> >Jim
> >> >--
> >> >jmd@handheld.com
> >>
>
>
> --
>
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: gt6511a@prism.gatech.EDU (COCHRANE,JAMES SHAPLEIGH)
Subject: Re: Blast them next time
Distribution: usa
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Lines: 44
In article <1r19l9$7dv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> oldham@ces.cwru.edu (Daniel Oldham) writes:
:What happened in Waco is not the fault of the BATF. If they would of
:had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the
:
:With the WoD and the increased crime in the streets the BATF is needed
:more now then ever. If they blast away a few good fokes then that is
:
:With the arms build up in Waco they needed to hit that compound with
:mega fire power. They could of gone in there blasting and killed a few
I hope this is a joke... if not, here's my response:
The BATF has a history of no-knock raids with poor evidence, often resulting in
innocent people being killed or suffering injury to person or property.  I will
NOT support the BATF until they clean up their act... Maybe...  As to equipment,
the BATF has damn near anything it wants...  Their faults were in intelligence
(military and civilian definitions apply), tactics (attacking during DAYLIGHT??), methodology (the FBI stated that it is against government policy to assault
a position where there are non-combatants/potential hostages without attempting
negotiations first), and legality.  The BATF's jurisdiction is TAXES on firearms
and tobacco.  They are a branch of the department of the treasury.  They have
very curiously backed away from their claims of illegal weaponry to push the
child-abuse charges... The BATF has no jurisdiction over non-firearms/tobacco
issues! And the charges of child-abuse had been investigated in the past with
no violence and no validation.  This was a clear case of first the BATF, then
the FBI, having watched too many Rambo movies...  My opinion is that the agent
in charge should be charged with executing an illegal raid, criminal negligence,
murder, civil rights violations, and breaking his/her oath to uphold and defend
the Constitution of the US.  The warrant should be unsealed to reveal to the
public what justification the BATF thought it had in committing an armed assault
on American citizens.  And while on the issue of investigating this issue,
the Randy Weaver case and the Johnny Lawmaster case should be investigated for
BATF wrongdoing.
James
btw, if the BATF came busting in my windows with concussion grenades, you could damn well bet I would return fire to the utmost of my ability.
--
********************************************************************************
James S. Cochrane        *  When in danger, or in doubt, run in * This space
gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu *  circles, scream and shout.          * for rent
********************************************************************************
From: an030@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Broward Horne)
Subject: Re: Impeach Clinton, Reno
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 40
Reply-To: an030@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Broward Horne)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu
In a previous article, gs26@prism.gatech.EDU (Glenn R. Stone) says:
>
>Fact:  Both Janet Reno and Bill Clinton have admitted responsibility,
>       even grief, over the deaths in Waco.
>
>Fact:  Regardless of who started the fire, there are more than enough
>       things on tape to make a civil rights case against these two.
>       Cruel and unusual punishment (dying tortured rabbits on tape?)
>       come to mind.
>
>Fact:  It is a federal felony to infringe civil rights under color of
>       law; where death is involved, this offense carries a penalty
>       of life in prison.
>
>Fact:  Impeachment is allowable for "high crimes and misdemeanors."
>       Anything that's a federal felony should qualify.
>
>Conclusion:  We have NO CHOICE, if we are an honest people, but to
>             impeach Mr. Clinton, and remove Reno from office.
I HEARTILY agree.  Now that the BATF warrant has been
unsealed, it is CLEAR that Clinton and Reno supported an
ILLEGAL raid.  Did they not KNOW this?
NO authority for a 'no-knock" raid
NO authority to use helicopters.
NO authority to search for a "drug lab"
And, apparently, not even any authority to search for "automatic
weapons".
51 days of GOVERNMENT LIES.
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad2.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
In-Reply-To: mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu's message of 21 Apr 1993 02:42:37 GMT
In <1r2cat$5a9@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu writes:
> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
> :mfrhein@wpi.WPI.EDU (Michael Frederick Rhein) writes:
> :
> :> As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day
> :> in Texas.
> :
> :Do YOU eat all your food cold?
>
> Thank you for pointing out the obvious to people who so clearly missed it.
> I can't stand it when people's first reaction is to defend the aggressor.
Minor quibble:  The assualt (and it was one) began near dawn.  The fire did
not break out for several hours.  I find it highly unlikely that the BD would
be cooking lunch while armored vehicles punch holes in their house and are
pumping in tear gas.  The lantern story makes more sense, except the fire
seemed to spread too quickly, even given the nature of the buildings and the
very high winds.  And it was daylight, but I guess in the innner recesses it
could be dark--shutters probably closed as well.
Which puts us back to the FBI did it, or the BD did it, or some other screw-
up occured, which is quite possible.
The problem with the FBI as a monolithic entity doing it is that it requires
*everybody* involved to keep their mouths shut.  While they tended to behave
like total idiots, that does not make them homocidal maniacs, either.  And if
it was one nutcase agent, then it serves no purpose to blame the whole agency.
I can believe that a real nut-case like a Koresh would start such a fire,
but I'm far from convinced he actually did so.
Then again, I rarely go off making blanket condemnations and pronouncments
within 2 hours of a very confusing incident over 175 miles away...
semper fi,
Jammer Jim Miller
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
________________________________________________________________________________
I don't speak for UH, which is too bad, because they could use the help.
"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."
"Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."
---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph
From: jim.wray@yob.sccsi.com (Jim Wray)
Subject: BATF/FBI revenge
Organization: Ye Olde Bailey BBS - Houston, TX - 713-520-1569
Lines: 55
Reply-To: jim.wray@yob.sccsi.com (Jim Wray)
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
Jason Kratz writing:
...
JK>If they had rocket launchers and such (as the press and gov claims) why
JK>shouldn't they have done something?  What possible use would a religious cult
JK>have for a rocket launcher?  Also, is child abuse covered by the Bill of
JK>Rights?
...
This is taken a little out of context and I'm not flaming Jason...it's just
that this was the proverbial straw....
I grow a little weary of the allegations (here, the media, people on the
street) that the BD's had all these "horrible illegal weapons and other
paraphenalia of destruction capable of blowing tanks 50 feet into the air..."
and then, without missing a beat, discuss how the BD's willfully commited
mass suicide, or killed their own less fanatical and *then* commited mass
suicide, etc., etc.
If the BD's had all these things and intended to "blow up their abode, blow up
Waco, blow up the entire country, or whatever suits your fancy, what happened
to all the violence they were supposed to unleash? Why wouldn't they have "gone
out in the proverbial blaze of glory" and "come out shooting" with an attitude
of "let's take as many of those dogs as possible with us"?
Instead, they seemed to have preferred death to whatever they thought was in
store for them at the government's hands.
It's totally immaterial whether they were all crazy, all fanatics, all followers
of the antichrist, haters of the government, practicers of weird lifestyles, or
whatever...they must have felt that they were being pressured into renouncing
their beliefs, however how strange or lunatic those beliefs might appear to "you
and me". There is much precedent for such devotion to cause.
My conclusion at this point is that the "authorities" seriously misread their
danger to society (else why did the BD's not do as suggested above) and/or chose
this incident to make some heinous point or satisfy some internal agenda, up to
and including AG J. Renbo using this as an opportunity to assert her manhood.
Some people really do believe it is better to die than be subjected to what
they perceive as the godless government. When I force myself to not judge
others by my own personal standards and beliefs, I can almost admire their
stand.
I surely believe in the Constitution but I don't know that I have such strength
of conviction as evidenced by the BD's.
---
. OLX 2.2 . Obesa non cantatis!
----
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Ye Olde Bailey BBS   713-520-1569 (V.32bis) 713-520-9566 (V.32bis)     |
|   Houston,Texas          yob.sccsi.com       Home of alt.cosuard       |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Nntp-Posting-Host: surt.ifi.uio.no
From: Thomas Parsli <thomasp@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Rewording the Second Amendment (ideas)
In-Reply-To: arc@cco.caltech.edu (Aaron Ray Clements)'s message of 21 Apr
1993 12:34:51 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
<1993Apr20.083057.16899@ousrvr.oulu.fi>
<viking.735378520@ponderous.cc.iastate.edu>
<1993Apr21.091130.17788@ousrvr.oulu.fi>
<1r3f1bINN3n6@gap.caltech.edu>
Lines: 24
Originator: thomasp@surt.ifi.uio.no
Chemical weapons are not concidered a *very* effectiv weapon against
millitary forces. On civillians on the other hand....
That's one GOOD reason for banning it.
You need VAST amounts of chemicals to be affective, so the best reason
to have/use it is price. (that's why it's called The Poor Mans A-bomb)
Any thoughts on Bio-weapons ??
If this discusion is about civillians having chem-weapons;
What should they use them on?? Rob a bank ??
This is not a .signature.
It's merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith
and to bring down the evil Internet.
Thomas Parsli
thomasp@ifi.uio.no
From: donb@netcom.com (Don Baldwin)
Subject: Re: Ax the ATF
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Lines: 14
In article <1r1ito$4t@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
writes:
>> It's hard to know what/who to believe.  However, the letter I received from
>> the BATF, in response to one I sent to Bentsen, said that there was a search
>> warrant AND an arrest warrant.
>
>Check again.  You may find that the arrest warrant was issued AFTER the
>first firefight.
The letter implies that both warrants were issued before the Feb 28th
shootout but doesn't say so exlicitly.  ACK!
don
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad2.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
In-Reply-To: arc@cco.caltech.edu's message of 21 Apr 1993 12:25:23 GMT
In <1r3efjINN3jj@gap.caltech.edu> arc@cco.caltech.edu writes:
> Thomas Parsli <thomasp@ifi.uio.no> writes:
> >I also believe Texas has some of the most liberal 'gun-laws' in USA......
>
> In Texas, you cannot carry a handgun.  Period.  Either concealed or open.
Currently, there is a bill before the Texas legislature that would make it
legal for some ordinary folks to carry concealed weapons.  I don't have the
details, sorry.
semper fi,
Jammer Jim Miller
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
________________________________________________________________________________
I don't speak for UH, which is too bad, because they could use the help.
"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."
"Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."
---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph
From: rats@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Morris the Cat)
Subject: Re: WI and IL firearms law Questions
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Lines: 56
|Question #2
|As I understand it, in Evanston, IL, they have a ordinance banning handguns.
|Is there any way to get around this provision?
Why don't you call the City and ask? Oak Park also has an illegal handgun
ban as well, but does allow those with a "collectors FFL" to possess
("collectible?") handguns.
|What would the penalty if you were found out be?
Probably a fine in practical terms.
|What if you used said handgun in a defensive shooting in your apartment
|there?  How would the city law apply to your impending
|trial for the shooting?
It wouldn't impede your defense at all. There was an actual incident
in Oak Park where a gas station owner engaged in a shootout with a
handgun; the grand jury decided not to presecute. On the other hand,
a black man used an illegally owned handgun in Oak Park to defend
himself, and the Village tried to make an example out of him. An NRA
Director who lived there made a stink about this, and it was decided
not to charge the guy. Of course, pissing off anti-gun police thugs
has it's own drawbacks, like when the Oak Park Police Chief came to his
house, and told him: "this is stepping over the line; this could get
dangerous for you." Whereupon the few black Oak Park police officers
watched over his house to ensure that the white anti-gun police chief
and his anti-gun cronies wouldn't f*ck with him, his home or family.
|Also, what is IL state law concerning short barreled weapons?  Short barreled
|shotgun is what I would be interested in if a handgun were not available,
|either that or a shortened 9mm carbine (ie Colt, Marlin).
L.V. Cipriani states that the "Any other weapon" category is allowed,
but the exact relationship between an Ithaca Auto-burgular, which I
believe is in the "Any other weapon" category and a chopped barrel
H&K HK-94 (Class 3 for sure) is not clear to me...
|One more thing, what is the chance of getting a CCW permit in IL without being
|rich or famous or related to the mayor?
In your dreams, buddy. As long as Democrats reign in Chicago, Illinois
residents will always be disarmed and helpless in the streets. Politicians
get around this by provisions in the law that allow them to carry
concealed weapons. Voters in Chicago are too stupid to vote these a**holes
out of office; because the Dems are always in power, the Illinois
Supreme Court is always tilted to the Democratic Party's views on guns.
[All candidates supported by political consultant David Axelrod are
anti-gun, which explains anti-RKBA Crook County States Attorney
Jack(ass) O'Malley being a so-called "Republican."]
Get rid of the Chicago Democrats, get rid of their members on the IL
Judiciary, and you got a fighting chance of a preemption law and a CCW
law...
From: mjp@watson.ibm.com (Michael Phelps)
Subject: Re: Need Senate Bill numbers and House Resolution numbers
Originator: mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com
Reply-To: mjp@vnet.ibm.com (Michael J. Phelps)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM.
Nntp-Posting-Host: bwa.kgn.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Kingston NY
Lines: 1835
Try the firearms archive.  Larry Cipriani's instructions follow.  By
the way, thanks for the archive Larry..
This year is the 103rd congress directory.
----------------------------
From
watson!yktnews.watson.ibm.com!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!news.ans.net!howland.r
reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!darwin.sura.net!dtix.dt.navy.mil!mimsy!cbvox1.
.att.com!lvc Thu Apr  8 19:41:01 1993
Article: 40039 of talk.politics.guns
Path:
watson!yktnews.watson.ibm.com!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!news.ans.net!howland.r
reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!darwin.sura.net!dtix.dt.navy.mil!mimsy!cbvox1.
.att.com!lvc
From: lvc@cbvox1.att.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Information about the anonymous ftp RKBA archive
Message-ID: <1993Apr8.182924.7274@cbnews.cb.att.com>
Date: 8 Apr 93 22:50:09 GMT
Sender: magnum@mimsy.umd.edu
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.
Lines: 1795
This is the INDEX file for the anonymous ftp RKBA archive.
The archive site has been moved and is now at:
godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu
in the directory
/usr0/anon/pub/firearms/politics/rkba
This archive is accessible only via anonymous ftp; instructions for
anonymous ftp are at the end of this file.
An email server is available at another site, and as a result is
not completely in sync with this archive.  To get the index for
the rkba email-server send:
get rkba index
as the body of a message to listserv@mainstream.com
For help send:
help
If you have any additions or suggestions for improvement to the
RKBA archive please let me know.
--
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or l.v.cipriani@att.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: rkba82
Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on
the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-seventh Congress, Second
Session, February, 1982
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HCR11
House Concurrent Resolution 11 by Mr. Crane, January 3, 1991
Expressing the sense of the Congress with respect to the right of all
Americans to keep and bear arms in defense of life or liberty and in
pursuit of all other legitimate endeavors.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HJR438
House Joint Resolution 438 by Mr. Major Owens, March 11, 1992
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States
repealing the Second Amendment to the Constitution; includes comments
by Owens entered into the Congressional Record.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR1133
House Bill 1133 by Mr. Goodling, February 27, 1991
To amend title 18, United States Code, to prohibit transfer of firearm to,
or possession of a firearm by, a person convicted of a drug crime, and to
provide enhanced penalties for possession of a firearm during a drug crime.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR1354
House Bill 1354 by Mr. Scheuer, March 7, 1991
To end the use of steel jaw leghold traps on animals in the United States.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR1412
House Bill 1412 by Mr. Staggers, March 13, 1991
To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide for the establishment
of a national hotline which a Federal Firearms licensee may contact to
learn if receipt of a handgun by a prospective transferee is prohibited,
and to require such a licensee to contact the hotline before the transfer
of a handgun to a nonlicensee.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR1559
House Bill 1559 by Mr. Gibbons, March 21, 1991
To prohibit the importation of semiautomatic assault weapons, large
capacity ammunition feeding devices, and certain accessories.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR1770
House Bill 1770 by Mr. Smith of Florida, April 15, 1991
To amend title 18, United States Code, to prohibit certain handguns
which are unsuitable for lawful sporting purposes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR19
House Bill 19 by Mr. Hughes January 3, 1991
To prohibit the possession, transfer, and certain exports of restricted
weapons, the manufacture of firearms capable of accepting a silencer or
bayonet without alteration, and the possession and transfer of large
capacity ammunition feeding devices, and for other purposes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR282
House Bill 282 by Mrs. Collins, January 3, 1991
To provide for the mandatory registration of handguns.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR2922
House Bill 2922 by Mr. Cardin, July 17, 1991
To amend the Public Health Service Act to establish an entitlement of
States
and certain political subdivisions of States to receive grants for the
abatement of health hazards associated with lead-based paint, and to amend
the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to impose an excise tax and establish a
trust fund to satisfy the Federal obligations arising from such
entitlement.
[This bill would impose upto a $0.75/pound tax on all new lead, and
$0.37/pound tax on recycled lead.]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR318
House Bill 318 by Mr. Dornan, January 3, 1991
To amend the Animal Welfare Act to prohibit dog racing and dog training
involving the use of live animals as visual lure and to make such Act
applicable to facilities that are used for dog racing or dog race training.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR3371
House Bill 3371
"The Violent Crime Prevention Act of 1991"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR371
House Bill 371 by Mr. Marlenee, January 3, 1991
To protect persons engaged in a lawful hunt within a national forest;
establishing an administrative civil remedy against individuals or groups
intentionally obstructing, impeding, or interfering with the conduct of a
lawful hunt; and for other purposes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/101st/HR4079
House Bill 4079 by Mr. Gingrich, February 22, 1990
To provide swift and certain punishment for criminals in order
to deter violent crime and rid America of illegal drug use.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR436
House Bill 436 by Mr. Weiss, January 3, 1991
To prohibit the manufacture, transfer, or importation of .25 caliber
and .32 caliber ammunition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR465
House Bill 465 by Mr. Rangel, January 7, 1991
To prohibit certain exports of fully automatic or semiautomatic
assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR4897
House Bill 4897 by Mr. Cunningham, April 9, 1992
To amend title I of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968
to deny grant funds to States unless law enforcement officers are permitted
to carry concealed firearms.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR5633
House Bill 5633 by Mr. Schumer, July 21, 1992
To amend title 18, United States Code, to expand the scope of the multiple
firearms sales reporting requirement, and to require that persons comply
with State and local firearms licensing laws before receiving a Federal
license to deal in firearms.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR5807
House Bill 5807 by Mr. Schumer, August 10, 1992
To impose criminal penalties upon the failure of a Federal firearms
licensee to report to appropriate authorities the loss or theft of a
firearm from the inventory or collection of the licensee.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR7
House Bill 7 by Mr. Feighan
To require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun;
also known as "The Brady Bill"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/HR750
House Bill 750 by Mr. Russo, January 30, 1991
To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 to provide that the excise tax
on handguns will be transferred to a trust fund to be used for purposes of
providing compensation to victims of crime, and for other purposes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/S214
Senate Bill 214 by Mr. Hatch, January 15, 1991
To provide procedures for calling Federal constitutional
conventions under article V for the purpose of proposing
amendments to the United States Constitution.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/S2304
Senate Bill 2304 by Mr. Lautenberg, March 3, 1992
To amend title 18, United States Code, to permanently prohibit the
possession of firearms by persons who have been convicted of a violent
felony, and for other purposes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/S257
Senate Bill 257
To require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/S2813
Senate Bill 2813 by Mr. Gore, June 4, 1992
To establish in the Government Printing Office an electronic
gateway to provide public access to a wide range of Federal
databases containing public information stored electronically.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/S2913
Senate Bill 2913 by Mr. Chafee, June 30 1992
To prohibit the manufacture, importation, exportation, sale,
purchase, transfer, receipt, possession, or transportation of
handguns and ammunition, with certain exceptions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/S3282
Senate Bill 3282 by Mr. Mitchell, September 28 1992
To amend title 18, United States Code, to require a waiting period
before the purchase of a handgun.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/101st/S386
Senate Bill 386 by Mr. Metzenbaum, February 8, 1989
To control the sale and use of assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/S51
Senate Bill 51 by Mr. Moynihan, January 14, 1991
To prohibit the manufacture, transfer, or importation of .25 caliber
and .32 caliber and 9 millimeter ammunition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/S634
Senate Bill 634 by Mr. Symms, March 13, 1991
To amend chapter 44, title 18, United States Code, to provide clarification
of limitations on controls of firearms, and to prohibit the use of Federal
funds to political subdivisions which implement certain gun control ordi-
nances.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/101st/S747
Senate Bill 747 by Mr. DeConcini,
To amend chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, regarding
assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/S789
Senate Bill 789, by Mr. Moynihan, April 9, 1991
To prohibit the importation of semiautomatic assault weapons, large
capacity ammunition feeding devices, and certain accessories.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/S892
Senate Bill 892, By Mr. Metzenbaum, April 23, 1991
To amend title 15, United States Code, to authorize the Consumer Product
Safety Commission to regulate the risk of injury associated with firearms.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/102nd/S918
Senate Bill 918, by Mr. Packwood, April 24, 1991
The amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to exempt small manufacturers,
producers, and importers from the firearms excise tax.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/HCR3
House Concurrent Resolution 3, by Mr. Crane, January 5, 1993
Expressing the sense of the Congress with respect to the right of all
Americans to keep and bear arms in defense of life or liberty and in the
pursuit of all other legitimate endeavors.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/HJR81
House Joint Resolution, by Mr. Owens, January 27, 1993
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States
repealing the Second Amendment to the Constitution.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/HR277
House Bill 277, by Mr. Mazolli, January 5, 1993
To amend title 18, United States Code, to require a waiting period
before the purchase of a handgun.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/HR544
House Bill 544, by Mr. Torricelli, January 21, 1993
To amend title 18, United States Code, to prohibit the transfer of 2 or
more handguns to an individual in any 30-day period.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/HR661
House Bill 661, by Mrs. Collins, January 27, 1993
To provide for the manufacturer, importer, or dealer of a handgun or an
assault weapon to be held strictly liable for damages that result from the
use of the handgun or assault weapon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/HR737
House Bill 737, by Mr. REYNOLDS, February 2, 1993
To provide for the manufacturer or importer of a handgun or an assault
weapon to be held strictly liable for damages that result from the use
of the handgun or assault weapon, and to amend the Internal Revenue
Code of 1986 to increase the excise tax on firearms and use a portion
of the revenues from such tax to assist hospitals in urban areas to
provide medical care to gunshot victims who are not covered under any
health
plan.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/HR1025
House Bill 1025, by Mr. Schumer, February 22, 1993
To provide for a waiting period before the purchase of a hadgun,
and for the establishment of a national instant criminal
background check system to be contacted by firearms dealers
before the transfer of any firearm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/S108
Senate Bill 108, by Mr. Moynihan, January 21, 1993
To prohibit the importation of semiautomatic assault weapons, large
capacity ammunition feeding devices, and certain accessories.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/S109
Senate Bill 109, by Mr. Moynihan, January 21, 1993
To amend section 923 of title 18, United States Code, to require the
keeping
of records with respect to dispositions of ammunition, and to require a
study
of the use and possible regulation of sales of ammunition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/S178
Senate Bill 178, by Mr. Moynihan, January 21, 1993
To amend chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, to prohibit the
manufacture, transfer, or importation of .25 caliber and .32 caliber
and 9 millimeter ammunition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/S179
Senate Bill 179, by Mr. Moynihan, January 21, 1993
To tax 9 millimeter, .25 caliber, and .32 caliber bullets.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/S376
Senate Bill 376, by Mr. Lautenberg, February 16, 1993
To prohibit the transfer of 2 or more handguns to an individual in any
30-day period.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress/103rd/S414
Senate Bill 414, by Mr. Metzenbaum, February 24, 1993
To amend title 18, United States Code, to require a waiting period
before the purchase of a handgun.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: gun-free-zones
Text of the GUN FREE SCHOOL ZONES ACT OF 1990 from PUBLIC LAW 101-647
NOV. 29, 1990
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: aclu
A collection of articles on the ACLU's position on gun control.
Included is ACLU Policy Statement #47 which gives the ACLU interpretation
of the Second Amendment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: dcm-info
A collection of articles explaining the Civilian Marksmanship Program.
In other words, "Why does the United States Department of Defense sell
battle rifles to civilians ? "
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: dial911
"Dial 911 and Die!"  By Aaron Zelman and Jay Simkin of Jews for the
Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: fija-info
The Fully Informed Jury Amendment, and what it means to gun owners
and the right to keep and bear arms.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: whitemanslaw
White Man's Law by William R. Tonso, from the December 1985
Reason magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: jefferson
The First Inaugural Address of Thomas Jefferson, 2nd president of the
United States.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: jewishistory
Jewish History Rufutes Gun Control Activists, by Elliot Rothenberg
from the February 1988 *American Rifleman*.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: law-abiding
The Law-Abiding Gun Owner as Domestic and Acquaintance Murderer
from "Guns, Murders, and the Constitution: A Realistic Assessment of
Gun Control," by Don B. Kates, February, 1990, pp.45-49.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: second-ideology
"The Second Amendment and the Ideology of Self-Protection" by
Don B. Kates, Jr.  Reprinted from CONSTITUTIONAL COMMENTARY,
Vol. 9. No. 1. Winter 1992, (c) 1992 by Constitutional Commentary,
Kates puts the Second Amendment and philosophies of self-protection
into a historical perspective
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: new-understa
Toward a New Understanding of the Second Amendment, by David T. Hardy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: to-bear-arms
"To Bear Arms for Self Defense: Our Second Amendment Heritage" by
Stephen P. Halbrook.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: no-treason
No Treason, The Constitution of No Authority by Lysander Spooner
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: resistance
Excerpts from the study "Crime Control Through the Use of Armed Force",
by Associate Professor Dr. Gary Kleck, Florida State University School
of Criminology, published in the February 1988 issue of SOCIAL PROBLEMS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: waitper-qna
Waiting Period -- Questions and Answers by Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI)
and Citizens for Safe Government (CSG)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: warsaw
"The Warsaw Ghetto; 10 Handguns Against Tyranny",
by Dr. David I Caplan from February, 1988 American Rifleman.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: wethepeople
Supreme Court interpretations of the Second Amendment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: sc-ftp
How to retreive Supreme Court decisions via anonymous ftp.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: alternative-policy
ALTERNATIVE POLICY FUTURES by Franklin E. Zimring
from THE ANNALS OF THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF POLITICAL AND SOCIAL SCIENCE.
Volume 455, May 1981; published by The American Academy of Political
and Social Science; 1981.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: embarassing.2nd.amendment
The Embarassing Second Amendment by Sanford Levinson, Yale Law Journal
Volume 99, pp 637-659 (1989)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nra800
Phone numbers for the NRA, many are toll-free 800 numbers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nradrugs
A collection of articles on the NRA's position on the War on Drugs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: fl-aw-part1
Florida A.W. Commission - Exec Summary Part 1,
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: fl-aw-part2
Florida A.W. Commission - Exec Summary Part 2,
STOCKTON -- THE FACTS  by Martin L. Fackler, MD
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: iwba
Information about the International Wound Ballistics Association,
Martin Fackler, president
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: gunshyjudges
Gun-Shy Judges by Jacob Sullum, from the May 1991 issue of Reason Magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: heatofmoment
In the Heat of the Moment, By James D. Wright
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: racist-soil
Article "Gun Control Sprouts from Racist Soil." by Roy Innis,
from the Wall Street Journal 11/21/91
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: core-policy
"Bearing Arms for Self-Defense -- A Human and Civil Right" by
Roy Innis, National Chairman, Congress of Racial Equality (CORE)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: righttobear
The Right to Bear Arms By Sanford Levinson from the
Daily News, Ft Walton Beach, FL.  (1991)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: rock-island
United States of America v. Rock Island Armory, US District Court for
the Central District of IL; the court ruled that making a post '86
machine gun is not illegal -- believe it or not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: dalton
United States of America v. John William Dalton, US Court of Appeals,
Tenth Circuit, 91-1149; the court ruled that owning or transferring
a post '86 machine gun is not punishable under the NFA -- believe it
or not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: waitdanger
Why Gun Waiting Periods Threaten Public Safety By David B. Kopel,
March 25, 1991
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: aw-qna
Assault Weapon Questions & Answers
by Handgun Control, Inc. and Citizens for Safe Government (CSG)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: ccw-survey
A state by state survey of Carrying Concealed Weapons laws.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: us-vs-miller
United States vs. Miller et al., Appeal from the District Court of the
United States for the Western District of Arkansas.
Argued March 30, 1939 -- Decided May 15, 1939
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: presser
The history of Presser v Illinois is a fascinating exercise of how
politically based decisions on our Constitutional rights have come back
to haunt us.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: cia-ncbh
A column by Neal Knox presenting evidence that former CIA agent
Edwin O. Welles played a major role in founding HCI and NCBH.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: conphone
A list of voice and fax phone number for representatives and senators.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: billofrights
The first 10 articles of amendment to the United States Constitution.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: constitution
The Constitution of the United States of America
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: decl-of-indp
The Declaration of Independence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: dont-wait
"Criminals Don't Wait -- Why Should You ?" from the NRA.  Exposes the
fraudulent arguments made for waiting periods.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: external
Positive Externalities of Gun Ownership, by John Kell, from
"The Freeman: Ideas on Liberty, October 1991 "
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: english-hist
Firearms Legislation in Great Britain, by Jan A. Stevenson
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: simkin
"Control Criminals, Not Guns" by Jay Edward Simkin found in the
March, 25 1991 [or '92?] Wall Street Journal:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: unabridged
The Unabridged Second Amendment, by J. Neil Schulman
An interview with Roy Copperud, retired professor of journalism at
USC and author of "American Usage and Style: The Consensus".  Copperud
offers his professional opinion on the meaning of the Second Amendment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: uzitruth
A letter from J. Harper Wilson, Director FBI Uniform Crime Reporting
Program to Paul H. Blackman, Research Coordinator of the NRA stating
that only one police officer, of Puerto Rico, was shot and killed with
a semi-automatic 9mm Model A Uzi.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: maketheirday
"How to Make Their Day" by Don B. Kates Jr. and Patricia Terrell Harris
in the National Review, October 21, 1991
Kates and Harris debunk several myths about firearms, criminals, and
violence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: two-myths
Two myths of gun control from "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in
America" by Gary Kleck.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: aw-not-problem
"Assault Weapons Aren't the Problem", by Gary Kleck, published in
The New York Times Tuesday, September 1, 1992
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: oregon-study
1990 Oregon Study of Retail Firearm Sales and CHL Licensing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: children
Fighting for Children's Hearts and Minds by Robert Pew, American
Rifleman - April 1992
Discusses how HCI and it's Center to Prevent Handgun Violence
have set out to use public schools as forums for their anti-gun
propaganda.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: gunssputter
"Guns and Sputter" by James D. Wright, from July 1989 issue of REASON.
Wright exposes the flaws in the New England Journal of Medicine study
comparing the homicide rates of Seattle and Vancouver.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nejm-info
A collection of articles and information on the New England Journal of
Medicine Vancouver/Seattle handgun crime comparison study.
See also the file gunssputter, authored by James Wright.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: dcstudy.1
The New England Journal of Medicine. 1991 Dec 5. 325 (23).
pp 1647-1650.
Editorials: Firearms And The Killing Threshold.
Kassirer-Jerome-P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: dcstudy.2
The New England Journal of Medicine. 1991 Dec 5. 325 (23).
pp 1615-1620.
Special Article: Effects Of Restrictive Licensing Of
Handguns On Homicide And Suicide In The District Of Columbia.
Loftin-Colin.  McDowall-David.  Wiersema-Brian.  Cottey-Talbert-J.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nejm-editorial
The New England Journal of Medicine. 1988 Nov 10. 319 (19).
pp 1283-1285.
Editorial: Firearm Injuries: A Call For Science.
Mercy-James-A. Houk-Vernon-N.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nejm-letters
The New England Journal of Medicine. 1989 May 4. 320 (18).
pp 1214-1217.
Correspondence: Handgun Regulations, Crime, Assaults, And
Homicide: A Tale Of Two Cities.
Blackman-Paul-H. Hagen-Tim.  Morris-David-C.
Stolinsky-David-C. Tirer-Samuel.  Gryder-John-W.
Kuziak-John-D. Sloan-John-H. Kellerman-Arthur-L-Kellermann.
Rivara-Fred-P. Koepsell-Thomas.  Reay-Donald-T.
LoGerfo-James-P. Rice-Charles.  Ferris-James-A. Gray-Laurel-
A. Mercy-James-A. Houk-Vernon-N.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: suicide.1
The New England Journal of Medicine. 1990 Feb 8. 322 (6).
pp 369-373.
Special Article: Firearm Regulations And Rates Of Suicide:
A Comparison of Two Metropolitan Areas.
Sloan-John-Henry.  Rivara-Frederick-P. Reay-Donald-T.
Ferris-James-A-J. Kellermann-Arthur-L.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: suicide.2
The New England Journal of Medicine. 1990 Jul 12. 323 (2).
p 137.
Correspondence: Firearm Regulations and Rates of Suicide.
Blackman-Paul-H. Sloan-John-Henry.  Rivara-Frederick-P.
Kellermann-Arthur.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: totc
The New England Journal of Medicine. 1988 Nov 10. 319 (19).
pp 1256-1262.
Special Article: Handgun Regulations, Crime, Assaults, And
Homicide: A Tale of Two Cities.
Sloan-John-Henry.  Kellermann-Arthur-L. Reay-Donald-T.
Ferris-James-A. Koepsell-Thomas.  Rivara-Frederick-P.
Rice-Charles.  Gray-Laurel.  LoGerfo-James.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nra.cdc
An open letter from Paul H. Blackman, of NRA to the Director, Office
of Scientific Integrity Review, U.S. Public Health Service, detailing
why they should evaluate the integrity and competency of firearms research
conducted by and for the Centers for Disease Control (CDC).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: RKBA.000
What the RKBA.nnn files are all about.
The RKBA.nnn series are set of small (60-100 lines typically) postings
that address common questions and myths about all aspects of firearms.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: RKBA.001
Accidental deaths by firearms and by other means.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FILE: RKBA.002
Declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: RKBA.003
Homicide per capita in the US
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: RKBA.004
Children and firearms
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: RKBA.008
Annual firearm manufacture in the United States
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: RKBA.010
Declaration of Independence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: RKBA.013
Trend in weapons use for robberies (1974-86)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: RKBA.014
Reasons for homicide and non-negligent manslaughter
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: RKBA.015
Are firearms a leading cause of death of children?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: RKBA.016
Is the United States the most violent nation?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: RKBA.999
Complete list of all sources used for the RKBA.nnn series.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: cox-study
Analysis of the Cox Atlanta Journal Constitution, 21 May 1989 article
on Assault Weapons, by James J. Baker of NRA-ILA, before the Select
Committee on Narcotics Abuse and Control, U.S. House of Representatives.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: feder11.txt
The Federalist Papers, as transcribed by Project Gutenberg 1.1
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: great-quotes
Thomas Jefferson quotes and more ...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: civilian
Civilian Possession of Military Firearms, by Richard A. I. Munday,
from the January/February 1988 issue of the UK Handgunner.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: good-go-bad
"When Good, Law-Abiding Citizens Go Bad", from UK Handgunner No. 46
Jan-Feb 1989.  Discusses how the rate of compliance of gun control
laws is always very low, even among otherwise law abiding citizens.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: tory-national-socialism
"Tory National Socialism", by Richard A.I. Munday, UK Handgunner,
Jul-Aug 86.  Discusses the gun control leanings of socialists of
the right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: the-big-lie
" Gun Grabbers vs. Assault Rifles: The Big Lie" by Neal Knox,
Semi-auto military-styled "assault" rifles are not now nor have they
ever been a threat to society. These facts have been determined by
the government - but never released to the public!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: ff-47
"The Founding Fathers and the AK-47", by Sue Wimmershoff-Caplan
Discuss the question if the Founding Fathers would have approved of
the AK-47 for civilian ownership.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: hcikkk
"Handgun Control, Inc., & the KKK" by David Kopel, from the Oct 91
issue of Gun World magazine.  Discusses the parallels in the hate
campaigns of the Ku Klux Klan and Handgun Control, Inc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: rkba-orgs
A list of organizations devoted to the preservation of the Second
Amendment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: victoria
"The Gun Law Handbook" for the state of Victoria, Australia (Oct 1988).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nra-purposes
A summary of the NRA's purposes and objectives, and positions on some
gun control issues.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: ktw
A collection of articles relating to teflon coated, armor piercing
bullets.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: thompsoncenter
The Supreme Court decision in the case:
United States of America v. Thompson/Center Arms Co.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: DMN_Gratia_CCP
"Concealed weapons can prevent tragedies like Killeen's" by
Dr. Suzanna Gratia in the Dallas Morning News, Sunday April
29th, 1992
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: Knox_AW_lies
Neal Knox on how military style semi-auto's are not a threat
to public safety, how they are not fundamentally different
than ordinary hunting weapons, and how the gun grabbers are
exploiting the bad image this class of weapons has to enact
further gun control.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: WSJ_Crimestrik
"The NRA Mounts a Militant Campaign Taking Aim at Criminal-Justice
System" by Alix M. Freedman staff reporter of The Wall Street Journal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: med-media
"Gun Prohibition in the Medical Literature - Telling the Truth?" by
Edgar A. Suter, MD ; discusses anti-gun bias in medical journals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: toy-guns
"Court Psychologist Says Toy Guns Are Good For Children" from Gun Week,
1989.
Glen David Skoler, court psychologist for the Arlington County, VA,
claims "toys of violence" -- including toy guns are, in fact, good
for children.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: awca89-appeal
Text of the 9th Circuit court of Appeals in the Fresno Rifle and Pistol
Club challenge to California's Roberti-Roos Assault Weapon Control Act
of 1989.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: lp92-rkba
The right to keep and bear arms plank of the 1992 National Platform of
the Libertarian Party.
And a reproduction of the Libertarian Party brochure
"Responsible Gun Ownership: Equal Rights for America's Gun Owners"
The entire 1992 National Platform of the LP is available via anonymous
ftp on think.com in the file /pub/libernet/LP/libertarian-platform-1992
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: let-july91
An article from the July/August 1991 issue of Law Enforcement Technology
with a survey of police officers on their views of gun control.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nacp-poll
A study conducted by the National Association of the Chiefs of
Police (NACP) through its American Law Enforcement Survey for 1989,
in which 16,259 chiefs of police, sheriffs and law-enforcement command
personnel were polled with a list of 30 questions, it was determined
the overwhelming majority of officers support the right of private
arms ownership, and agreed that gun bans had little effect on crime.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: hci-advert
A example of the propaganda used by HCI in soliciting contributions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: hci-transcript
A transcription of the HCI video tape "America Needs a National
Handgun Control Policy"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: gartner
Michael Gartner, president of NBC News, calls for a ban on handguns
in this USA TODAY Thursday January 16th 1992 editorial.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nra-lp
A resolution passed by the voting membership of the NRA at its national
convention in Anaheim, CA stating the NRA will support third party
candidates.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: cooley
Thomas M. Cooley, LL.D., General Principles of Constitutional Law in
the United States of America, 298-299 (3rd ed. 1898), a leading
constitutional commentator discussed the rights protected by the Second
Amendment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: kilpatrick
"Gun Law Might Curb Rising Murder Rate" by James Kilpatrick, St. Louis
Post-Dispatch Tuesday June 23, 1992.  Kilpatrick expresses support for
a national firearms law as proposed by C. Everett Koop, that is, a
requirement that gun owners pass a competency test, among other things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: vanity-fair
A summary of the 10 page article on Jim and Sarah Brady which appeared
in the January '91 issue of Vanity Fair Magazine.
Question: "Was it true you wanted to get a gun to protect
yourself against Hinckley?"
Answer Jim brady: "I had a gun"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: goldwin
"Gun Control Is Constitutional," by Robert A. Goldwin from the
Wall Street Journal edtorial page, Thrusday, December 12, 1991
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: anniston
Two articles on a murder averted in Anniston, Alabama by a man
with a CCW permit.  The importance of this event is that it closely
followed the murders by Hennard in Texas, but the media did not
cover Anniston.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: staggers-brady
A survey of public support for the Staggers Instant Background
Check and the Brady Waiting Period.  The basic finding is that
once the public understands the advantages of the instant background
check vs. the problems with the Brady waiting period support for
the Brady waiting period diminishes greatly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: brady-vote
How Congress voted on the Staggers Instant Background Check and
the Brady Waiting period.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: vs-vote
How Congress voted on the Volkmer-Sensenbrenner Amendment to
strike the new gun control sections from the administration
crime bill.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: dc-vote
How the U.S. Senate voted on S. 2113, the repeal of the District
of Columbia's anti-gun strict liability law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: covey
"Gun Control: Trying the Facts,  Weighing the Values" A monograph based
on "Crime, Inequality, Guns, & Equity" by Preston K. Covey, Ph.D.,
Director Center for the Advancement of Applied Ethics, Carnegie Mellon
University.
Addresses the desirability of gun bans: ethical aspects, equity issues,
and other values at stake in the management of mortal risks, deadly
force and its instruments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: assays-of-bias
"Assays of Bias on the Second Amendment: The Media Elite" by
Preston K. Covey, Director Center for the Advancement of Applied
Ethics [excerpts from a longer monograph]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: cleveland
A critique of:
ACCIDENTAL FIREARM FATALITIES IN A METROPOLITAN COUNTY (1958-1973)
Rushforth, Hirsch, Ford, and Adelson
American Journal of Epidemiology #100, 1974, pp. 499-505.
This is THE study that lies at the heart of the gun control
claim that owning a firearm for self-defense is too dangerous.
The claims that a defensive gun is X (=6 in this study)
times more likely to be used against an innocent person than
in lawful self-defense originated with this report in 1974.
by Robert I. Kesten
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: tiananmen-lessons
"LESSONS FROM TIANANMEN SQUARE" by Neal Knox reprinted from
Guns & Ammo, September 1989
Why the Second Amendment is so important, even in todays more
"progressive" era.  Included is a description of the 1932
Bonus March in Washington, DC in which Gen. Douglas MacArthur
opposed unemployed WWI veterans lobbying for the government to
immediately pay their promised Veteran's Bonus.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: forward-trace
"California FFL Dealer Defies "Forward Trace"" by Neal Talbot in
The New Gun Week, March 1, 1991.
Details how the BATF bullies FFL holders into giving BATF copies
of 4473's in violation of federal law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: justice-stats
"Handgun Crime Victims", by Michael R. Rand, Bureau of Justice Statistics
Statistician, U.S. Department of Justice.
This Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report describes the key findings
from an analysis of handgun crimes reported in the National Crime Survey
for 1979-87.  It describes the victims of hand-gun [sic] crime, how the
handgun was used during the crime, and the nature and extent of handgun
crime injury.  It also provides information on handgun offenders, the
location of handgun crimes, and whether the crime was reported to the
police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: chafee
Included are:
1) Transcript of press conference with Senator John Chafee, and former
Supreme Court justice Warren Burger on S. 2913, Chafee's, handgun ban.
Also speaking was Vernon Jordan, former member of the Jimmy Carter
White House; Mayor Sharon Pratt Kelly; Michael Beard of National
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence; Michael Casserly (executive director,
Council of the Great City Schools); Dr. Carden Johnston representing
the American Academy of Pediatrics;
2) An article by Neal Knox in which he describes how Sarah Brady kicked
out HCI president Charles Orasin because of a disagreement on Chafee's
handgun ban.
3) An article on Burger's support for S. 2913.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: alarmist-view
"Gun Registration: An 'Alarmist' View" by Jon vanWormer; reprinted
from the December 1985 Guns & Ammo.  How an rkba moderate became a
radical.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: fackler-papers
A list of articles by "Col. Martin L. Fackler, M.D., F.A.C.S."
Wound Ballistics Lab, and where to write for copies of them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: gun-war
"THE GREAT AMERICAN GUN WAR" by Barry Bruce-Briggs,
_The_Public_Interest_  No. 45, Fall 1976, pp 37-62
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: george-will
"Repeal Second Amendment and Save Lives", by George Will
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: reeves
"Drastic Steps to End the War at Home" by Richard Reeves, no date
nor publication available; placed in rkba archive 9/2/92
"Studies _Prove_ Gun Control Works" by Richard Reeves, from the
Kansas City Star, 9/28/92.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: canada-ban-list
A reproduction of a brochure from the Canadian Department of Justice
listing newly prohibited and restricted firearms (as of June 1992).
Also included is the "point system" used to determine if a firearm
should be reviewed for possible banning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: copkiller
Lyrics to the rock song "Cop Killer" by Ice-T on the album Body Count.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: cva.1
A letter from the California Voters Alliance, asking for support in
their effort to defeat anti-gun California Assemblyman Terry Friedman,
co-author of California's waiting period law for rifles and shotguns.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: astrology
"CRIMINOLOGY'S ASTROLOGY: The CDC Approach to Public Health Research
on Firearms and Violence" by PAUL H. BLACKMAN, Ph.D., Institute for
Legislative Action, National Rifle Association, 1990
A paper presented at the annual meetings of the American Society of
Criminology, Baltimore, Maryland, November 7-10
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: aw-panic
The Assault Weapon Panic: "Political Correctness" Takes Aim,
at the Constitution, by Eric Morgan and David Kopel
Published by The Independence Institute, October 10, 1991
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: state-rkba
A collection of RKBA provisions from State constitutions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: too-late
Chapter 13 "But then it was too Late" of "THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE
FREE: The Germans, 1933 - 1945", by: Milton Mayer, University of
Chicago Press
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: militia-code
The legal definition of the militia of the United States of America
taken from:
United Stated Code (USC), TITLE 10, Section 311 and Section 312.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: legal-mg-crime
Report No. 32 of the Firearms Coalition of Silver Spring, MD. 11/29/89
by Neal Knox.  Knox reports that a legally registered machine gun was
used in a drug hit.  Subsequent reports said charges were dropped for
lack of evidence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: hci-cash
HCI donation records to US Senators and Congressmen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: paulreverenet
Information about the "Paul Revere Net", a network of 2nd Amendment
Bulletin Boards
The Paul Revere Network (PRN) is a coast-to-coast network of
committed grass-roots gun rights activists who rely upon computer
bulletin board systems for their primary mode of communication.
Leroy Pyle (NRA Director and 27-year San Jose police veteran)
is Founder and Director of the PRN.  Based in San Jose, CA,
Pyle's BBS (1:143/223) currently hubs all network message
traffic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: gun-talk
Information about the NRA-ILA Bulletin Board "Gun Talk"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congressgrades
A grading of congressmen based their votes on 1) the Brady Bill
(HR7), 2) Staggers (HR1412) and 3) the Volkmer-Sensenbrenner amendment
to strike the anti-gun provisions from the house crime bill (HR3371).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: lawmaster
"FEDS TRASH LAW-ABIDING GUN OWNER'S HOME", NRA official journal March
1992, by Richard E. Gardiner.  Details how the BATF raided the home of
Johnny Lawmaster in search of a non-existent unregistered M-16 auto-sear.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: point-blank
The concluding chapter to "Point Blank" by Gary Kleck.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: purdy-rapsheet
Patrick Purdy's criminal record.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: progundocs
Statement of purpose and contact information for "Doctors for Integrity
in Research & Public Policy"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: orlando
A summary of the effects of the highly publicized Orlando training
program in which over 6000 women were trained in basic pistol
marksmanship and the law of self-defense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: form4signoff
A letter from Wayne Miller, Chief National Firearms Act Branch of
BATF stating that local law enforcement signoff on the ATF Form 4,
application for Taxpaid Transfer and Registration of Firearm [i.e.,
machine gun], is completely discretionary.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: badlands.txt
New Zealand Firearms Control by Robert Badlands.
A paper presented at a conference on Gun Control held at Melbourne
University-Union Theatre 27-28 August 1988.  The conference was
sponsored by the Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: danto.txt
Issues Regarding Gun Control in America by Bruce L. Danto
A paper was presented at a conference on Gun Control held at Melbourne
University-Union Theatre 27-28 August 1988.  The conference was
sponsored by the Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: fine.txt
Impediments to the Purposeful Reform of (Australian) Firearms Laws by J. D.
Fine
A paper presented at a conference on Gun Control held at Melbourne
University-Union Theatre 27-28 August 1988.  The conference was
sponsored by the Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: greenwd.txt
Untitled paper by Colin Greenwood
A paper presented at a conference on Gun Control held at Melbourne
University-Union Theatre 27-28 August 1988.  The conference was
sponsored by the Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: kates.txt
Gun Control: Recent Research on the American Experience by Don B. Kates,
Jr.
A paper presented at a conference on Gun Control held at Melbourne
University-Union Theatre 27-28 August 1988.  The conference was
sponsored by the Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: marsden.txt
Gun Control: A Banker's Perspective, by ??? Marsden
A paper presented at a conference on Gun Control held at Melbourne
University-Union Theatre 27-28 August 1988.  The conference was
sponsored by the Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia.
Note, this paper is almost impossible to read currently as the original
would not scan well.  A more readable copy will be supplied later.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: backdoor
Back Door Gun Control by Peter Alan Kasler from the January 1993
issue of American Survival Guide magazine.
Kasler discusses four examples of innocent people whose firearms
are confiscated, and/or charged with a crime when none was committed,
as examples of how gun control is implemented in the real world.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: armed-citizen
"The Armed Citizen" feature from "The American Rifleman" and "The
American Hunter"; these stories show how firearms are indeed useful
for self-defense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: botsford
The Case Against Gun Control by David Botsford
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: academia-bias
"Fighting Anti-Gun Bias in Academia -- an article downloaded from the
NRA-ILA BBS "Gun Talk"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: story-of-gun
"The Story of a Gun" by Erik Larson, from "The Atlantic", January 1993.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: hcr**
Reports to the Firearms Coalition, by Neal Knox.
All these files are named hcr then two numbers, e.g., hcr51 for
"Report No. 51 to the Firearms Coalition"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: whose.txt
"Whose Side Are They On ?"
"Freedom From War: The United States Program For General and Complete
Disarmament in a Peaceful World." an official publication of the United
States of America government.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nccfa
Contact information for the "National Collegiate Coalition for Firearms
Awareness"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: canada
Some facts about Canadian gun control laws, gun ownership and violent
crime.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: time-letter
Time magazine's form letter response to criticism of their
"Death By Gun" issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: gun-in-school
"Health Objectives for the Nation: Weapon-Carrying Among High School
Students -- United States, 1990" edited by David Dodell, D.M.D.
Proposes ways to reduce carrying of firearms by high school students.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: congress-cover
"Congress Covers Itself But Not Public" by Paul Craig Roberts, printed
in the Cleveland Plain Dealer October 2nd, 1992.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: hamper
"Restrictions hamper law abiding folks, not criminals." by
David B. Kopel, printed in the Columbus OH Dispatch, January 16th.
Points out how waiting periods can cause a great deal of harm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: schumer-gripe
A "Washington Post" letter to the editor by Congessman Charles E. Schumer
discussing his bill, H.R. 5633, which requires law enforcement sign-off
on FFL applications.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: sof
A UPI article on a lawsuit against "Soldier of Fortune" which forced
them out of business.
This article is copyright by UPI, and archived with permission; please
respect the re-distribution prohibition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: fl-stats
A summary of CCW permit statistics for the state of Florida, e.g.,
the number of permits issued, number revoked, number denied, etc.
This proves that people obtaining CCW permits are law abiding
citizens and are not wreckless with their firearms.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: knox-on-ruger
"Knox Replies To Comment From Ruger Counsel's" from
The New Gun Week, December 1, 1989.
Neal Knox discusses how Sturm, Ruger Inc. are willing to sacrifice the
RKBA for the benefit of their business.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: american-blacks
"Gun Control and American Blacks" by Raymond G. Kessler (pp. 476-478)
In the United States, the experience of blacks from slavery
through the 1960's was one of the clearest and best-documented
examples of the political functions of gun control.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nraction*
The NRA-ILAs little known newsletter "NRAction"; names will have the
month and year at the end, e.g., nraction0291.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: americamilitia
"America's Militia" by David B. Kopel, appeared in "Gun World" magazine
December 1992.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: hci93agenda
The "Action Agenda for a National Gun Policy" by HCI.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: hci-newsletter
The Handgun Control Semi-Annual Progress Report for December 1992.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: hattoripetition
A petition written by the host family of Japanese exchange student
Yoshihiro Hattori, who was killed when he went to the wrong home for
a Halloween party:
"To protest the easy availability of firearms in the United States"
which will be presented to President Clinton.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: hci-election
"What the Election Means for Our Gun Control Movement" by Sarah Brady.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: centerwall
University of Washington Pyschiatrist Dr. Brandon Centerwall writing
in the April 1989 American Journal of Epidemiology says that television
exposure is related to half of the homicides in the United States.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: va-outrage
"An Outrage in Virginia" by Neal Knox.  Describes how BATF used a
Virginia gun dealer to general strawman sales and then later "traced"
those guns back to VA so they could claim 40% of guns they traced
came from VA.  When the dealer stopped cooperating they were convicted
of conducting strawman sales, one of the owners committed suicide.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: factcard93
The 1993 Firearms Fact Card published by the NRA-ILA
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: nejm43
A letter to the editor of the Wall Street Journal by Preston Covey
on the factoid "You are 43 times more likely to kill someone you know
with a gun than a criminal."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: gifford
An op-ed piece by Dan Gifford which appeared in the March 8 1993 issue
of the Cleveland Plain Dealer; it discusses the issue of police abuses
and citizen self defense against such abuses.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: reynolds
An editorial "Gun Makers Must Pay the Price" by Mel Reynolds (D-IL),
member US House of Representatives, which appeared in the 02/15/93
issue of the Chicago Tribune.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: pozner
"Gun Control" with Vladamir Pozner (yes, the commie) and Phil Donahue
from a Feb. 25 1993 broadcast on CNBC.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: trustpeople
CATO Institute Policy Analysis No. 109, July 11, 1988
"TRUST THE PEOPLE: THE CASE AGAINST GUN CONTROL," by David B. Kopel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: bitterprice
The British Shooter Pays A Bitter Price, by Keith G. N. Nicholson
from the American Rifleman, March 1993.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: batman
"Cartoon Campaign for Gun Control" from the March 8th 1993 issue
of "New American"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: batfss
"Waco Shootout Evokes Memory of Warsaw '43" from the Wall Street
Journal, Monday, March 15, 1993
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: academics
Contact information for "Academics for the Second Amendment"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: propaganda
Anti-Gun-Ownership Propaganda, by Doan Boal in the March, '92 issue
of Survival Guide.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: media-fairness
Media Fairness Action Plan Is Continuing, by James H. Warner, NRA Ass't
General Counsel, from American Rifleman, March 1993, page 54.
This describes the FCC's "personal attack" rule and how the NRA may
take advantage of this rule against broadcasters who attack the NRA.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: artconf
ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION, Proposed by Congress November 15, 1777,
Ratified and effective March 1, 1781
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: pending-bills
A list of the currently pending gun control bills in the US Seante and
House of Representatives.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: noduty
Self-Reliance For Self-Defense -- Police Protection Isn't Enough!
by Peter Kasler
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: leftout
The Second Amendment: A Right Left Out, by Doctor Linda Karen Miller
appearing in The American Rifleman, February 1993, p. 33.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: copsnguns
WHAT COPS SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THE GUN ISSUE! by Leroy Pyle,
from the May 1992 issue of Guns&Ammo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: crossfire
A transcript of the Wednesday, March 3 1993 edition of the CNN
show CROSSFIRE.  The participants are Michael Kinsley, John Sununu,
Rep. Charles Schumer (D-NY) Criminal Justice Subcmte.,
and J.F. = Rep. Jack Fields (R-TX)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: naziconnection
The WAR ON GUN OWNERSHIP STILL GOES ON! -- GUN CONTROL'S NAZI CONNECTION!
by Craig Peterson from the May 1993 issue of Guns & Ammo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: armedcriminal
The Armed Criminal in America, by James Wright, 1986.  A Research in
Brief published by the National Institute of Justice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: bigotry
"BIGOTRY, SYMBOLISM AND IDEOLOGY IN THE BATTLE OVER GUN CONTROL" by
Don Kates, from the 1992 "Public Interest Law Review"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: flmurd.ps
File: gamurd.ps
File: idmurd.ps
File: mtmurd.ps
File: nodiscr.ps
File: ormurd.ps
File: pamurd.ps
File: philmurd.ps
File: utmurd.ps
File: vamurd.ps
File: wamurd.ps
File: wvmurd.ps
CCW laws and murder rates in several states, by Clayton Cramer.  These
are all PostScript files and require the use of PostScript printer to
print.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: hammer
Marion Hammer on the Failure of Gun Control, downloaded from Gun Talk.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: threechiefs
The views of Police Chiefs Daryl Gates (LA), Lee Brown (NYC), LeRoy Martin
(Chicago) on gun control and other civil rights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
RKBA archive: general information and anonymous ftp instructions.
The moderator of the firearms-politics mailing list, Karl Kleinpaste,
has agreed to set up an anonymous ftp archive directory for RKBA
related information.  This directory can be used for things like
articles by Kates, Wright, Tonso, Levinson, Supreme Court Decisions,
the RIA vs US decision, copies of legislation, and so on.  It's not
meant to be for the discussions that normally appear here.
So, in the future if you're looking for something check there first
and then ask here.
Instructions:
Short version for techies:
The site is godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu.  Place contributions into the
directory /usr0/anon/pub/firearms/politics/rkba.  The ftp commands
get, put, mget, or mput should work.  Give the command "type binary"
to be sure files are transferred correctly.  Your files will be moved
to the rkba directory.  To get a file use the commands get or mget.
I will maintain an index which you should get first to check if
the file you want to read or write already is archived.
Long version for non-techies:
In order for you to use this archive your computer must be on
the Internet.  To connect to the archive site run the command:
ftp godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu
If that doesn't work you cannot use this archive.  If the ftp
command is successful you'll get this prompt asking you for a
login:
Name (godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu:lvc):
Instead of lvc your initials will appear.  Answer this prompt with:
ftp
Next you'll get this prompt asking your for your e-mail address:
Guest login ok, send e-mail address as password:
I would enter:
l.v.cipriani@att.com
You'll enter your own e-mail address.  You'll get these lines
or similar as output:
Remote system is UNIX.
Using binary mode to transfer files.
Next, the command prompt is printed:
ftp>
If you do not get the line "Using binary mode to transfer files."
Run the command:
type binary
Now you're logged in to the archive machine.  There are many
directories on this machine  but the two you are concerned with are
/usr0/anon/pub/firearms/politics/rkba
and
/usr0/anon/pub/firearms/politics/incoming
There are subdirectories to the rkba directory, those are discussed below.
When you login to the system your directory is /usr0/anon.  To retreive
files change your current directory to the rkba directory with the command:
cd /usr0/anon/pub/firearms/politics/rkba
or
cd pub/firearms/politics/rkba
To submit files change your directory to the incoming directory with
the command:
cd /usr0/anon/pub/firearms/politics/incoming
or
cd pub/firearms/politics/incoming
Once you do this you'll get another ftp> prompt asking you to enter
another command.
To find the names of the existing files in the directory you are
in run the command:
ls -l
This will produce something like:
total 6021
-r--r--r--  1 karl          6932 Jun 16  1992 DMN_Gratia_CCP
-r--r--r--  1 karl         69149 Apr  5 19:20 INDEX
-r--r--r--  1 karl         18965 Jun 16  1992 Knox_AW_lies
-r--r--r--  1 karl         10930 Apr 30  1992 S361
-r--r--r--  1 karl          8958 Jun 16  1992 WSJ_Crimestrike
-r--r--r--  1 karl          2649 Jan 13 18:33 academia-bias
-r--r--r--  1 karl           935 Mar 22 22:38 academics
-r--r--r--  1 karl         36079 Aug  4  1992 aclu
... and so on ...
Each line corresponds to one file.  Reading right to left, the fields
are the file name, the last modification date of the file, the size of
the file in bytes, and some permission fields which you do not need
to be concerned with.
To get a file run the command "get" followed by the name of the file
you want, for example:
get INDEX
or
get noduty
After the file is transfered to your machine a message like this:
Transfer complete.
19580 bytes received in 5 seconds (4 Kbytes/s)
You can repeat the get command for every file you want to retreive.
You can use the mget command to retreive multiple files.  If the
file you want is in a subdirectory, for example, congress/103rd/HR1025
you should change your directory to the appropriate subdirectory first
and then retrieve it:
cd congress/103rd
get HR1025
Once you're finished you can log off with the command:
quit
If you have a file you want to contribute the procedure is a little
different.  First of all you should find out if the file already
exists, so get a copy of the index file with the procedure above
and look it over to make sure you wouldn't repeat an entry.  The
index will have a description of each of the files in the rkba
directory.  For example:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
File: whitemanslaw
White Man's Law by William R. Tonso, from the December 1985
Reason magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Once you've determined you won't be duplicating an entry, login
and change to the incoming directory command (see above).  Once
you are in the incoming directory use the command:
put file_name
In this case:
put whitemanslaw
Again there'll be a "Transfer complete, so many bytes transfered
in so many seconds" message.  Now your file is on the archive
machine.
Another thing to watch out for is duplicate file /names/.  Be sure
there isn't a file in the incoming directory that is called the same
as the file you want to write.  If you use the same name you'll
overwrite the previous file [or you'll get an error message].
Your file may have to be renamed if there is a conflict with a
file by the same name in the rkba directory.
Once your file is in the incoming directory send me an entry for
the INDEX file and I will add it to the file.
If you cannot use anonymous ftp and would still like to contribute
a file email the file to me and I'll take care of the rest.
If you submit a file and do not notify me it may be removed, so
be sure to let me know first.
If you have any questions feel free to ask me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Larry Cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com
--
Michael Phelps, (external) mjp@vnet.ibm.com ..
(internal) mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com .. mjp at kgnvmy
(and last but not least a disclaimer)  These opinions are mine..
From: gt6511a@prism.gatech.EDU (COCHRANE,JAMES SHAPLEIGH)
Subject: Re: Riddle me this...
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Lines: 18
On the subject of CS/CN/tear gas: when I received my initial introduction to
tear gas, the first thing that came to mind was the location of the exit.  If
there had been anything in the way, corners to negotiate, doors to open, or
any other obstacles to movement, I would have had a difficult time exiting the
chamber.  And any concentration of tear gas is hazardous to individuals with
respiratory problems, and the wearing of soft contact lenses in a tear gas
contaminated area is considered a REAL BAD IDEA.  So hoping the BD's would
peaceably come strolling out the door after being gassed is a bit unrealistic.
If they could have found the door, having them staggering out retching wouldn't
be too far fetched.  Throw in the factor of 50-51 days of being under siege and
subject to psychological warfare, and all bets on functional abilities are off.
Anybody tried to get Amnesty International to jump in on this one?
--
********************************************************************************
James S. Cochrane        *  When in danger, or in doubt, run in * This space
gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu *  circles, scream and shout.          * for rent
********************************************************************************
From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
Lines: 131
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support
In article <CMM.0.90.2.735132009.thomasp@surt.ifi.uio.no>, Thomas Parsli <thomasp@ifi.uio.no> writes:
>Gun clubs:
>If you are a member you CAN borrow weapons....(Suprised??)
>You are supposed to train with a .22 for the 6 months, THEN
>you can start with anything bigger.
>
>Drivers licence:
>Forgot that USA is THE land of cars.....
>Getting one in Scandinavia (and northern europe) is not easy.
>Average time is about 20 hours of training, and the cost is rather......
>But we think this is acceptable because a car is NOT a toy, and
>bad drivers tend to hurt OTHERS.
>(If you are really bad, you WON'T get a lincence!)
>
>Abuse by the goverment:
>This seems to be one of the main problems; Any harder gun-control
>would just be abused by the goverment.(!)
>Either some of you are a little paranoid (no offence...) OR you should
>get a new goverment. (You do have elections??)
Unfortunately, elections can, and are, bought.  Promise the voters money, and
they will vote for you.
>
>Guns 'n Criminals:
>MOST weapons used by criminals today are stolen.
>Known criminals can NOT buy weapons, that's one of the points of gun control.
Same here.  Convicted felons may not legally purchase firearms.
>And because gun control are strict in WHOLE scandinavia (and most of europe),
>we dont have any PROBLEM with smuggled guns.
That you know of.
While I lived in the DBR, a gang robbed a joint US Army/Bundewehr armoury and
got several hundred M-16s, ammunition, handguns and some explosives.  When I
left two years later, there were no clues.
>
>Mixing weapons and things that can be use as one:
>What I meant was that cars CAN kill, but they are not GUNS!
>Someone said that if we 'ban' guns we'd have to ban cars to, because they 'kill' to...
>I don't think we should argue on this one..... ;)
>
>The issue (I hope..):
>I think we all agree that the criminals are the main problem.
>Guns are not a problem, but the way they are used is.... (and what are they for??)
Who uses them is the problem.  Crime, in the U.S., is "no big deal" if you are
the criminal.  How about 5 years for murder.  Credit for time served (in jail,
waiting for trial) and you are out in 12 months, worst case.  If we would put
criminals, especially violent ones, in the slam for true sentences, crime would
drop.  Instead, we reward them for being good and let them out early, very
early.
>
>I think this discusion is interesting when you think of (ex)Jugoslavia:
>They should all have weapons, it's their rigth to have them, and if they use them
>to kill other (Innocent) people the problem is humans, not guns.
Serbs, Croats and Muslims have been killing each other almost since before the
invention of guns.  Old women are throwing stones at UN trucks.  This is a
hatred that goes beyond reason.
>
>If 50% of ALL murders was done with axes, would you impose some regulations on them
>or just say that they are ment to be used at trees, and that the axe is not a problem,
>it's the 'axer' ??
>(An example, don't flame me just because not exactly 50% are killed by guns...)
Yes, the problem is the user.  Question back (since you are one of the rational
ones):  If all gun crime were to stop, would you support dropping all gun
controls?
>
>Think about the situation in Los Angeles where people are buying guns to protect
>themselves. Is this a good situation ?? Is it the rigth way to deal with the problem ??
They did not believe, from experience, that the "police" (including National
Guard) could/would protect them.  Unless you want to argue that a human being
does not have a right to protect him/herself, they did the right thing.  What
would you suggest as a defense against a mob throwing bottles and rocks, and
also likely armed with stolen firearms?
>
>If everybody buys guns to protect themselves from criminals (and their neighbor who have
>guns) what do you think will happen ?? (I mean if everybody had a gun in USA)
Criminals would move to Scandinavia??? :-)  The average criminal would look for
a less hazardous job, and the rest would likely be buried at county expense.
>
>Don't flame the Englishmen because of Northern Irland, they have gun control that works
>(in England) and fonds from USA are one of the reasons why IRA can bomb innocents...
>(Something about throwing stones in glass houses...)
Personally, I criticize the fools who send money to the IRA to "make Ireland
free".  Of course, this is the last thing the IRA wants, because they lose
power if England pulls out.  But that's for another group.
>Don't flame them because of what to (three?) children did either.
The U.S. has roughly 20 times the major sporting events as the U.K..  How many
riots did we have at sporting events last year (off the playing field)?
Hooligan is a word never used when reffering to sports fans here.  I guess
that's where the different cultures thing comes in.
>(Can an Jugoslav have an oppinion on guns or even peace??) (YES!)
Yes.  The question is, is the problem one of too many guns (mostly from the
army) or not enough (nonSerbians can not defend themselves.
>
>(My numbers about crime rates after restrictions on shot-guns are from the police
>and the Statistisk Sentralbyraa) (understood that one Sorenson??)
>
>LAST WORD:
>Responsible gun owners are not a problem, but they will be affected if you want to protect
>your citicens.
But disarming responsible gun owners is not the solution.  Yet, that is exactly
what HCI is proposing.
--
Dillon Pyron                      | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support    | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here)     |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home)     |Texans: Vote NO on Robin Hood.  We need
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com          |solutions, not gestures.
PADI DM-54909                     |
From: wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (I am an android..)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Lines: 29
NNTP-Posting-Host: happy.cc.utexas.edu
In article <1993Apr21.113723.10103@synapse.bms.com> hambidge@bms.com writes:
]In article <C5sv88.HJy@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
]>In article <1r1j3n$4t@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
]>>In article <1r19tp$5em@bigboote.WPI.EDU>, mfrhein@wpi.WPI.EDU (Michael Frederick Rhein) writes:
]>>
]>>> >napalm, then let the wood stove inside ignite it.
]>>>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
]>>> As someone else has pointed out, why would the stove be in use on a warm day
]>>> in Texas.
]>>
]>>Do YOU eat all your food cold?
]>
]>Ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves?  Very popular.
]>Electric stoves outside metro-areas especially.
]
]Ever hear about cutting off the electricity? That was done.
]How effective is an electric stove then?
Didn't the Branch Davidans have an emergency generator? Oh well, I don't think
Brent thought of that anyway.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
|Patrick Chester   (aka: claypigeon)         wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu|
|The Earth is our cradle, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever... |
|People's organizations rarely stay that way... or even begin as such. |
|I only speak for myself. If I *did* speak for UT, would anyone listen?|
\----------------------------------------------------------------------/
From: arc@cco.caltech.edu (Aaron Ray Clements)
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 34
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu
HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
>In <1r3efjINN3jj@gap.caltech.edu> arc@cco.caltech.edu writes:
>> Thomas Parsli <thomasp@ifi.uio.no> writes:
>> >I also believe Texas has some of the most liberal 'gun-laws' in USA......
>>
>> In Texas, you cannot carry a handgun.  Period.  Either concealed or open.
>  Currently, there is a bill before the Texas legislature that would make it
>legal for some ordinary folks to carry concealed weapons.  I don't have the
>details, sorry.
>semper fi,
>Jammer Jim Miller
>Texas A&M University '89 and '91
>________________________________________________________________________________
> I don't speak for UH, which is too bad, because they could use the help.
>"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."
> "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."
>      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph
If I recall correctly, the bill would provide for concealed carry if
the person takes a 15-hr DPS safety course in firearms and pays a $150
fee for the license.  The bill is apparently veto-proof in the House,
but LtGov Bullock has said it will never come to the floor of the
Senate and Dreamboat Annie has vowed to veto it if it comes to her
desk.  *shrug*
aaron
arc@cco.caltech.edu
From: rats@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Morris the Cat)
Subject: Re: news says BATF indictment/warrant unsealed...
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Lines: 26
|QUESTION:
|What will Californians do with all those guns after the Reginald
|denny trial?
The Wall Street Journal had an article on how the police were whining
about all the new guns; excuse me, but police are EMPLOYEES of the
government. Rather like having your janitor complain about job
conditions.
I say Californians should form armed block clubs that would engage
in coordinated strategies should BATF attempt to disarm them based
on the "nefarious tipster" theory of law enforcement. Unlike Waco,
Californians should be able to destroy armored vehicles in city
streets with incendiary weapons, acetylene after slowing them down
with abandoned car blockades. M-1 Garands should easily outclass
BATF shock troops with their H&K MP-5 SMGs, and there should be
enough Sony Walkmans and Boom Boxes to overwhelm any FBI psy-war
operation... yes, a good time would be had by all. Billary Clinton
would get what he wanted, a War on Gunowners, the BATF would attempt
to show the anti-gun press they they really, REALLY were in charge
with a 500-man "Charge of the Light Brigade," and the FBI would attempt
to show how _THEY_ really were in charge by asking the Californian
National Guard to level the area with artillary!
:-) :-) :-)
From: porges@beretta.camb.inmet.com (Don Porges)
Subject: Re: JFFO has gone a bit too far
Nntp-Posting-Host: beretta
Organization: Intermetrics Inc.
Distribution: usa
Lines: 80
Having read the posted long article by JPFO, I have some observations:
1.  This article does NOT claim that the GCA of 1968 is a "verbatim
translation" of a Nazi law.  What it says is that in another place --
the book they're talking about -- they compare the two things section
by section.  The implication is that the similarities are devastating.
In the next sentence, they talk about how in that book they reproduce
the German text of the Nazi law, together with its translation.  Not
surprisingly, a reader could easily conflate these two things into a
single idea:  that the American GCA is a literal translation of the Nazi
law; and sure enough, that's what the whole thing has mutated into,
urban-folklore style.
2.  The article goes to great pains to establish that Senator Dodd had a
copy of the Nazi law, either from his time on the Nurnberg prosecution
team or later.  This fact is considered highly incriminating, but I don't
understand why.  The author repeats several times that he is simply unable
to imagine how anyone could come into possession of the original text; and
yet in a paragraph towards the end, he explains it perfectly:
"If Dodd got his copy of the original German text of the Nazi Weapons
Law during his time at Nurnberg, it likely was part of a collection of
documents, for example, issues of the Reichsgesetzblatt [the German
law registry]."
Bingo.  Exactly.
Dodd had a *book*, with a series of Nazi laws in it, including the one
under discussion.  All of the stuff about "Why would a U.S. congressman
have a copy of a Nazi law?" melts away, by the author's admission.  He
then continues:  "But if he acquired the original German text of the
Nazi Weapons Law after his service at Nurnberg, he must have done so
for a very specific reason..."  But there's absolutely no reason to
think that this is the case.  In fact, as a "senior member of the U.S.
team that helped to prosecute Nazi war criminals", it seems to me that
he would have *had* to have a copy.  All arguments about whether
the Nazi Weapon Law is really of historical interest (as it obviously
is, certainly according to the author here), or whether Dodd personally
prosecuted the Interior Minister who signed it, can be put aside as red
herrings.
3.  Having established that Dodd owned a copy of the original German text, the
JPFO article then tries to draw sinister implications from the fact that he
asked to have it translated.  The problem is, in the context of the charge
levelled at Dodd, these two things work *against* each other.  People ask
to have things translated when they *don't know what they mean*.  If Dodd
took it upon himself to preserve the Nazi law with idea of someday introducing
it into American law, surely by 1968 he would have know what it *meant*,
wouldn't he?
Anyway, this precise charge -- the main one that I questioned in an earlier
posting -- is just silly.  Why would Dodd need the exact translation for this
purpose?  Is the idea that the gun controllers, despite being presumably bent
on disarming the populace with the goal of eventually destroying all civil
liberties, needed a crib sheet?  Didn't they have any idea how to do it
on their own?
Once again, the author provides a perfectly acceptable answer to his
own question: "Dodd may have offered his copy of the Nazi Weapons Law
to show that the specific proposal did not resemble anything in the
Nazi law."  In fact, since the law and its translation *were* entered
into the Congressional Record, under the heading of documents "concerning
the history of Nazism and gun confiscation", Dodd's motivation isn't a
mystery:  he asked for the translation in order to put it in the CR.
4.  Even this article makes it clear that the part of the Nazi law that
was added *by* the Nazi regime is only a small part of that law.
Registration of guns, for instance, was begun in 1928, and thus NOT
a "Nazi-inspired" idea.  The parts of the Nazi law that parallel the
1968 GCA include handgun control of some sort, and the identification
of certain weapons as sporting weapons.  The JPFO then goes on to list
other parts of the Nazi law, forbidding ownership of weapons by Jews;
of course, there are no such provisions in the American GCA.  Nevertheless,
in a rhetorical move guaranteed to muddy the waters, immediately after the
discussion of the anti-Jewish parts of the law, the JPFO article continues,
"Given the parallels between the Nazi Weapons Law and the GCA'68..." -- so
as to get maximum emotional mileage out of that aspect of the law.
--
-- Don Porges
porges@inmet.camb.inmet.com
..uunet!inmet!porges
From: gress@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (GRESS  JOSEPH JOHN  )
Subject: Re: With Friends Like These -- L. Neil Smith
Nntp-Posting-Host: ucsu.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 33
In article <C5D05G.6xw@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> papresco@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
>In article <1993Apr10.155819.18237@sco.com> allanh@sco.COM (Allan J. Heim) writes:
>>Look, if you can figure out a reliable means of keeping guns away from
>>bad people, while not interfering with good people, I think we'd all be
>>for it.  The problem is, the methods we're using now don't do the trick.
>
>Don't manufacture them.  Don't sell them.  Don't import them.
>
>Some guns will get through, but far fewer, and far less people will
>die because of them.  Hunting weapons could be allowed, of course, as
>long as they are big, and bulky, and require reloading after a few
>shots (how many times can you shoot at the same animal, anyways One
>assumes they are moving!)
>
>
First of all let's assume that you are right that fewer guns would make it
in to the country, that sounds great (to those that see guns as inherently
evil) except then every one  of those guns would be in the hands  of someone
who obviously couldn't care less about following the law, after all they
got the gun illegally, so is more likely to commit a crime with that gun.
Great then everyone with a gun is likely to use it in a crime, nice system.
Now  as to reducing the number of guns  coming into society by making it
illegal to manufacture, sell, or import them in this coutry,  let me use
a parallel for empiric evidence.  The amount of cocaine in this country is
far less since its manufacture, sale, and importation was out lawwed.    If
that last statement is true then perhaps we should consider your plan.  This
could also apply to drugs in general.
PLAIN OLD  JOE
>
From: klm@gozer.mv.com (Kevin L. McBride)
Subject: The Holocaust Revisited
Organization: GhostBuster Central - Southern NH Usenet Access, Nashua, NH
Lines: 17
The U.S. Government's campaign of persecution and genocide against the
Branch Davidians was a resounding success.
Heil Clinton!  Heil Reno!  The Gestapo is alive and well and living in
Washington, D.C.
--
Kevin, who agrees that David Koresh was probably a first-rate nutcase
but who firmly believes that the Bill of Rights guaranteed his
his right to be a religious fanatic and that the government is
guilty of violating his civil rights and of 1st degree murder.
OK, which small, under-represented-in-congress religious group
are we going to persecute next and are we going to torch their
church with a rolled up copy of the Constitution?
I think I'm going to be sick now. . .
From: jbs@rti.rti.org
Subject: Re: text of White House announcement and Q&As on clipper chip encryption
Organization: Joe's Bar and Grill
Distribution: na
Lines: 24
In article <strnlghtC5tr6D.n3n@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>
>Though I agree this is not the place to discuss guns, I note in passing that
>a number of gun apologists seem to have ignored the words "well regulated"
>in their distorted interpretations of the Second Amendment.
What interpretations?  Just read it as it's written.
"A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free
state, the right of the people, to keep and bear arms, shall not be
infringed."
Where does it say "The right of the people to be members of a militia shall
not be infringed" or "The right of the militia to keep and bear arms shall
not be infringed?"  NOWHERE.
"Well-educated businessmen being necessary to the ability of the nation to
compete in the international marketplace, the right of the people to attend
schools shall not be infringed."
Would you "interpret" this to mean that only businessmen should have a
protected right to attend schools?  Why or why not?
-joe
From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: S414 (Brady bill) loopholes?
Keywords: brady handguns s414 hr1025 hr277 instant check waiting period
Lines: 74
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support
Distribution: na
In article <shepardC5p2y6.GC1@netcom.com>, shepard@netcom.com (Mark Shepard) writes:
>Hi. I've just finished reading S414, and have several questions about
>the Brady bills (S414 and HR1025).
Good!
>
>1. _Are_ these the current versions of the Brady bill?
>     What is the status of these bills?  I've heard they're "in committee".
>     How close is that to being made law?
Not very.  Thanks to the filibuster in the Senate, things are backing up.  The
House judiciary  is going to start looking at our friends from the ATF, so that
bill will be held up a little, too.  NOTE: Things can change quickly.
>
>2. S414 and HR1025 seem fairly similar.  Are there any important
>   differences I missed?
>
>3. S414 seems to have some serious loopholes:
>  A. S414 doesn't specify an "appeals" process to wrongful denial during
>     the waiting period, other than a civil lawsuit(?)  (S414 has an appeals
>     process once the required instant background check system is established,
>     but not before).
I thought there was a correction process in both bills for both parts.
>  B. the police are explicitly NOT liable for mistakes in denying/approving
>     using existing records (so who would I sue in "A" above to have an
>     inaccurate record corrected?)
Very correct.
>  C. S414 includes an exception-to-waiting-period clause for if a person
>     can convince the local Chief Law-Enforcement Officer (CLEO) of an
>     immediate threat to his or her life, or life of a household member.
>     But S414 doesn't say exactly what is considered a "threat", nor does
>     it place a limit on how long the CLEO takes to issue an exception
>     statement.
Welcome to the world of "the privileged".
>True?  Have I misunderstood?  Any other 'holes?
How about no compulsion to allow purchase if there is no evidence against?
>
>4. With just S414, what's to stop a person with a "clean" record from
>   buying guns, grinding off the serial numbers, and selling them to crooks?
>   At minimum, what additional laws are needed to prevent this?
It is already illegal to do this.
>
>   'Seems at min. a "gun counting" scheme would be needed
>   (e.g., "John Doe owns N guns").  So, if S414 passes, I wouldn't be surprised
>   to see legislation for stricter, harder-to-forge I.D.'s plus national gun
>   registration, justified by a need to make the Brady bill work.
This is the "health" card.  Or so some "paranoids" claim.  I say that just
because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.   :-) 1/2
>
>Please comment.  I'm mainly interested in specific problems with the current
>legislation--I don't mean to start a general discussion of the merits
>of any/all waiting-period bills ever proposed.
--
Dillon Pyron                      | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support    | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here)     |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home)     |Texans: Vote NO on Robin Hood.  We need
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com          |solutions, not gestures.
PADI DM-54909                     |
From: wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH! NO SURVIVORS!!!
Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University
Lines: 46
In article <C5tEnu.112F@ns1.nodak.edu> green@plains.NoDak.edu (Bill Green) writes:
>Just to shed some light on the fire, it was widely reported (AP, etc.) that
>there WERE several witnesses to BD folks starting the fires.  It has also
>been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once, which
>rules out a Bradley knocking over a lamp, etc. as the cause.
The only folks claiming this are the ATF/FBI who have an interest in
putting the blame on the BD's. Wake up.
>What I would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident.  I
>believe the moves made were right and proper, but I still have some problems
>with some of the tactics.  After watching the ABC special on it tonight, as
>well as CNN and Nightline, I question some of the ATF and FBI actions.
Right and proper? How? It was FUBAR from day 1.
>1) Could it have been possible to have taken Koresh outside the compound at
>some time before the Feb. 28th raid?
>
From all independent sources. Yes.
>2) Could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome.
It would have hurt nothing to wait and the result could hardly have been
worse.
>3) Were FBI actions (blaring loudspeakers, etc.) the "right" course of action?
Sure, it you want to someone you claim is a dangerous paranoid even
more paranoid.
>And a few other questions.  Like I said, I believe the actions taken, in
>general, were proper.  But I still have some reservations.
>
>One other point, I'm no fan of Janet Reno, but I do like the way she had the
>"balls" to go ahead and take full responsibility.  Seems like the waffle boy
>had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue.
And what makes you think that "waffle boy" didn't tell her to take the
wrap. It was job preservation not "balls".
--
+   Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only   +
|*Clinton*Gore*CIA*FBI*DEA*Assassinate*Bomb*WoD*BoR*ATF*IRS*Resist*NSA* |
|*Christian*God*Satan*Apocalypse*ZOG*Nazi*Socialist*Communist*Explosive*|
+*fundamentalist*revolution*NSC*Federal Reserve*Constitution*gold*FEMA* +
From: strait@cheetah.csl.uiuc.edu (Jeffrey C. Strait)
Subject: Re: NRA address?
Organization: The University of Illinois
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cheetah.csl.uiuc.edu
Keywords: NRA Waco RKBA
In article <7307@pdxgate.UUCP>, barker@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (James Barker) writes:
> Could someone email me a USNail address for the NRA? I'd like to write them
> a letter encouraging them to see to it VERY EMPHATICALLY that the 2nd
> amendment is restored to the form that the founding fathers intended.
National Rifle Association
1600 Rhode Island Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20036-3268
1-800-368-5714 (membership)
--
| Jeff Strait                       | strait@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu        |
| University of Illinois            | PHONE: (217) 333-6444            |
| "If you ladies leave this island, if you survive basic recruit       |
| training, you will be a weapon, a minister of death praying for war" |
From: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak)
Subject: Question on Senate Bills
Originator: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: icebucket.stortek.com
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.
Distribution: usa
Lines: 49
I'm writting letters to my Congresscritters and was wondering if
there is any reason(s) why I should NOT support the following
Bills, other than the previous comments about S.458.  Just checking
before I mail the letter to make sure I don't support something
that I really shouldn't.
-----------------
I strongly SUPPORT the following laws currently being considered in Congress
as they would either have a positive effect towards reducing crime, or re-
enforce our Constitutional right under the 2nd amendment.
* S. 441 (Campbell)	To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide a
mandatory minimum sentence for the unlawful possession
of a firearm by a convicted felon, a fugitive from
justice, a person who is addicted to, or an unlawful
user of, a controlled substance, or a transferor or
receiver of a stolen firearm, to increase the general
penalty for violation of Federal firearms laws,
and to increase the enhanced penalties provided for the
possession of a firearm in connection with a crime of
violence or drug trafficking crime, and for other
purposes.
* S.458  (Smith) 	To restore the second Amendment Rights of all Americans.
* S.488  (Specter)	To provide Federal penalties for drive-by shootings.
* S.504  (Kohl)	To amend section 924 of title 18, United States Code to
make it a Federal crime to steal a firearm or explosives
in interstate or foreign commerce.
Bill Vojak
vojak@icebucket.stortek.com
NRA, ILA,
Colorado Firearms Coalition
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a story, bout a man named Brady, who took a .22 bullet
in his head.  Even though he can act perfectly normal, he
prefers to pretend he's brain dead.
Here's a story, bout a woman named Brady, who had nothing to
do but sit around all day.  Then her husband became a media
martyr, now she wants to take all your guns away.
The Brady Bunch, The Brady Bunch, This is how we got stuck
with the Brady Bunch. . . . .
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead)
Subject: Re: Change of name ??
Nntp-Posting-Host: sora.icd.ab.com
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.
Lines: 47
In article <CMM.0.90.2.735315429.thomasp@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no>, Thomas Parsli
<thomasp@ifi.uio.no> writes:
> 	1. Make a new Newsgroup called talk.politics.guns.PARANOID or
> 	talk.politics.guns.THEY'R.HERE.TO.TAKE.ME.AWAY
Well, may I point out that paranoia is an IRRATIONAL fear, without basis
in reality.  As we've seen here in the US, there is nothing irrational
about it.  Perhaps you folks in Finland have been down on your knees
being good little boys and girls so that the former Soviet Union didn't
come across the border and stomp the snot out of you for so long that
you just figure everybody should be so accomodating to tyranny.
>
> 	2. Move all postings about waco and burn to (guess where)..
>
> 	3. Stop posting #### on this newsgroup
If you don't like us talking about political issues involving attacks
on people for owning guns, don't read talk.politics.guns.
>
> 	We are all SO glad you're trying to save us from the evil
> 	goverment, but would you mail this #### in regular mail to
> 	let's say 1000 people ????
>
Nobody's trying to save YOU from anything, so butt out.  I couldn't
care less about what somebody on the other side of the world thinks
about this. Of course, you do have a right to an opinion...  but I've
always figured that opinons are like hemmorhoids.  Every asshole's
got them, I just don't care about yours.
**************************************************************************
*     I remember what I was doing         *    Bad boy, whatcha gonna do    *
*  when I heard that JFK had been shot.   *        Whatcha gonna do         *
*  Will you remember the Battle of Waco?  *    when they come for you...    *
***************************************************************************
Ken Whitehead (kdw@odin.icd.ab.com)
From: cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston)
Subject: Re: WACO: Clinton press conference, part 1
Organization: Rice University
Lines: 6
Could y'all PLEASE stop posting this stuff to tx.general.  tx.politics
is sufficient and is where this stuff belongs.  Thanks.
Cathy
--
Cathy Foulston + Rice University + Network & Systems Support + cathyf@rice.edu
From: lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani)
Subject: The Dayton Gun "Buy Back" (Re: Boston Gun Buy Back)
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.
Lines: 11
According to WNCI 97.9 FM radio this morning, Dayton, Ohio is operating a
gun "buy back".  They are giving $50 for every functional gun turned in.
They ran out of money in one day, and are now passing out $50 vouchers of
some sort.  They are looking for more funds to keep operating.  Another
media-event brought to you by HCI.
Is there something similar pro-gun people can do ?  For example, pay $100
to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm ?  Sounds a bit
tacky, but hey, whatever works.
--
Larry Cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com
From: lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani)
Subject: Re: Need Senate Bill numbers and House Resolution numbers
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.
Lines: 15
In article <C5u7Io.uMw@hawnews.watson.ibm.com> mjp@vnet.ibm.com (Michael J. Phelps) writes:
>
>Try the firearms archive.  Larry Cipriani's instructions follow.  By
>the way, thanks for the archive Larry..
There are a few bills not yet in the archive, but these are the main ones
we need to fight.  And thanks to David Robinson for scanning so many of
them in for us!
The subdirectory bills are stored in was moved from "congress" to
"Congress", that is:
godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu:/usr0/anon/pub/firearms/politics/rkba/Congress
--
Larry Cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com
From: j979@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (FULLER  M)
Subject: Re: Riddle me this...
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Distribution: usa
Lines: 30
In article <1993Apr21.040839.20574@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.050550.4660@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> j979@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (FULLER  M) writes:
>>That the gas was "not harmful", as the sensitive, caring Janet Reno described
>>it?
>
>Is it? As far as I know, tear gas, especially in large concentrations,
>is very dangerous (even toxic) for small children. This makes the
>FBI's supposedconcern for the safety of the children seem rather
>hypocritical.
>
Not to mention that the G-men believed the children didn't have gas masks.
But that was not, with respect to the children, the point of the gassing.
The feds *knew* that the children's health would be in danger and proceeded
under the assumption that the "motherly instinct" of the Davidian women
would remove them from harm's way. I busted a gut on that one.
Someone else on the net observed that the administration's appeal to a
woman's "motherly instinct" would never wash with feminists and liberals
if a republican were in the White House. I say that such an justification
could *only* come from a feminist mindset.
BTW - I'd read in the paper yesterday that the type of gas used was CS2.
The paper didn't provide any specifics about it.
"Guess I'm still writing..."
Malcolm Fuller, Surveying Engineering, University of New Brunswick
malcolm@atlantic.cs.unb.ca or j979@jupiter.csd.unb.ca              }>:-/> --->
_____________ Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem ____________
From: nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle)
Subject: Re: ATF BURNS DIVIDIAN RANCH - UPDATE
Nntp-Posting-Host: mushroom.psych.indiana.edu
Organization: Psych Department, Indiana University
Distribution: usa
Lines: 28
<34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:
>Ah yes, I see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork
>to defend the burning of the children.
Actually all the liberals I've seen have deplored the burning of
children. I would far preferred that the Davidians had not set the
fire that burned themselves and their children to death, but I don't
believe that the responsibility for the fire (or the almost complete
absense of attempts to escape the blaze) can be placed at the door of
the Federal authorities.
>Probably drooled all over themselves while watching the TV coverage.
Not so. My wife got me a convenient plastic "drip pan" for Christmas...
>Probably had a few like that in Nazi Germany, as well.
Yeah, those Nazis. You know how we liberals just love those Nazis.
>Oh yeah, ATF/FBI now claims, according the the media, that there are
>a few survivors. The number seems to vary minute by minute.
Yeah, as information trickles in... funny how that works...
--
Nathan Engle                        Software Juggler
Psychology Department               Indiana University
nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu      nengle@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Subject: Re: Need info on 43: 1 and suicide for refutation
Lines: 85
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Distribution: usa
In article <1qmuv8INNl8s@dns1.NMSU.Edu> loki@acca.nmsu.edu (Entropic Destroyer) writes:
>The following is quoted from the tail end of a (rather condescending)
>article about Paxton Quigley, that appeared in US Snooze and World Lies,
>(sorry... i think it was in the wall street journal...)
>and was repeated in the Colorado (people's) Daily, a student newspaper
>at the University of Colorado at Boulder.
>
>"A study of residential gunsot deaths in King County, Wash., found that
>a gun in the home was 43 times more likely to be used to kill its owner,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>spouse, a friend, or child than to kill an intruder.
The "used to kill" is the heart of the misinformation.  It's one
of those technically accurate phrasings that conveys the wrong impression.
What Mr. Quiqley is more than aware of, I'm sure, is that when people
read this they think violent arguments where one member of the family
grabs a gun and shoots another, thereby creating a tragic situation
which could easily have been avoided had the gun not been there, or
a tragic accident, especially involving a child.
Unfortunately, that's not the way things stack up.  The majority
of that 43 "times" (37 I believe) are suicides.  That is, someone
intentionally took a firearm and shot themselves intending to kill
themselves.  And why it's popular to try and blame suicides on guns,
the evidence doesn't support this.  Internal studies, as well as
comparative studies with other countries, indicate that cultural
factors far outweigh whether a person will kill themselves or not.
(Japan, for instance, has a slightly higher rate than the U.S.  There
people jump off buildings.)
According to the National Crime Survey, 40% of violent crime
is commited by "non-strangers," which mistakenly has been generalized
regarding the King County study to mean, "Friends and family."  That
is, Mr. Quigley, and others who quote this statistic, are banking on
the mental image that a "Friend, family member, or child," equates
to a loving relationship, and that it was cut short in a moment of
anger.  Unfortunately, all too often husbands beat and kill wives,
children assault parents, or vice-versa.  Most rapes are commited by
someone known to the victim, for instance.  Essentially, that a gun
was used against a "friend" or family member doesn't mean they
weren't trying to hurt the other person.  Crime is highest among
poor urban families, and those are also the areas most "at risk"
for family problems, especially violent ones.  A son in a gang may
not be as loving toward his parents if they disapprove than a suburban
kid might.
Finally, it hinges on the fallacy that a dead intruder is the
only value of a self-defense firearm.  Using the minimum figures I
worked out using the NCS I got about an 80:1 ratio between deadly
self-defenses (justifiable homicides) and with-gun self-defenses.
Between the FBI Uniform Crime report and the NCS there's an enormous
amount of data and anybody with the calculator can crunch the numbers.
As such it is incorrect to assume that a dead body is the only valid
means of determining the success of such a defense, since according
to the NCS (which has been considered by many to seriously under-report
defenses) there were far more successful with-gun defenses than intruders
killed.
Not it also confines itself to the home, where attack by a "friend
or family member" is far, far more likely, and excludes any defense
which occurs outside the home.  (I believe a large number occur in
businesses.)
>Studies by the
>Western Psychiatric Institute, in Pittsburgh, found that the mere presence
>of a gun in the home sharply incresases the likelihood a family member
>will commit suicide, even in the absence of psychiatric illness."
I have not seen the exact data for this, so I can't comment.  I
will point out Canada's and Japan's suicide rate as indications that
culture far more than firearm availability affect suicide rates.
There was also a comparative study between Canada (for what
it's worth, considering the difficulty of comparing across cultural
lines) published in the New England Journal of Medicine (I can get the
exact cite if you need it) that concluded that restrictive firearm laws
would not significantly impact the over-all suicide rate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal Univ. of Tenn. Div. of Cont. Education Info. Services Group
PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "I still remember the way you laughed, the day
your pushed me down the elevator shaft;  I'm beginning to think you don't
love me anymore." - "Weird Al"
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Distribution: usa
Lines: 62
In article <93105.165359U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> Jason Kratz <U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.184452.27322@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) says:
>>>Hell, a Glock is the last thing that should be switched to.  The only thing
>>>that I know about a Glock is the lack of a real safety on it.  Sure there is
>>>that little thing in the trigger but that isn't too great of a safety.
>>
>>Now we know that Kratz doesn't understand what a safety is supposed to
>>do.  (He also confuses "things he can see" with "things that exist";
>>Glocks have multiple safeties even though only one is visible from the
>>outside.)
>
>Excuse me but I do know what I safety is supposed to do.
Kratz comments above show otherwise.
>It's basic purpose - not to let the gun fire until you're ready.
Bingo - now the question is, does the Glock's qualify?  Let's see
the evidence that Kratz uses.
>Christ, I've known that since I had my first Crosman air gun.  You don't
>know me so don't make assumptions about what I know and don't know.
But first an aside.  Having an air gun proves nothing.  Moreover,
my comments are based on what Kratz writes.  He's free to argue that
he babbles in text but actually knows something off-line.
>>A safety is supposed to keep the gun from going off UNLESS that's
>>what the user wants.  With Glocks, one says "I want the gun to go
>>off" by pulling the trigger.  If the safeties it has make that work,
>>it has a "real" safety, no matter what Kratz thinks.
>
>From the things I have read/heard Glocks are always knocked because of the
>trigger safety.  They are supposedly harder to learn to use properly.
Harder than what?  I note that almost all revolvers work the same way,
so it can't be "harder than revolvers".
>Every article that I have read can't be wrong about the damn thing.
Sure they can.  (Moreover, we know now that Kratz' sample is
unrepresentative.)  We can look at the reasoning.  It is basically
"these Glocks are dangerous because they're not like my 1911/S&W third
generation."  Part of that is true, but since those same people don't
claim that revolvers, which share the relevant property, are
dangerous, we see that the argument fails.
>me to quote my sources because I don't keep a ton of gun magazines and/or
Why would I care?  I'm not looking for more bogus reasoning.
>rec.guns articles laying around.  Boy, you can't make a simple statement on
>here without someone getting right on your ass.
One can make hundreds of simple statements without having anyone
"getting right on your ass".  One merely has to make accurate simple
statements.  Then you get "attaboy"s by mail and publically.
Accuracy is a severe burden, but most of us manage it.
-andy
--
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Distribution: usa
Lines: 35
In article <93105.215548U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> Jason Kratz <U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>>I have been at a shooting range where
>>>gang members were "practicing" shooting.
>In article <1993Apr15.202811.29312@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) says:
>>How do "we" know that they were gang members and not undercover cops
>>or even law-abiding menacing minorities.  BTW - Why the sneer quotes?
>
>"We" know because the area that the gun shop/shooting range is in is right on
>the border of the west side of Chicago.  That is a gang infested area.
So?  Kratz was there - does that mean that he's a gang member?
Even in the most gang-infested areas, most of the residents ARE NOT
gang-members.
>that only minorities have gangs?  Not so.  As far as the quotes are concerned
>it was totally obvious that they weren't just practicing for marksmanship.
How was it obvious?  Were they not trying to hit the target?  Or, does
Kratz confuse "marksmanship" with "trying to simulate a post"?  If so,
that excludes self-defense shooting, but the rest of us understand
that that exclusion would be an error.  (It excludes a lot of legit
"gun games" as well.)
>don't know about you but I have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship by
>taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting.
Sounds like practical pistol or maybe IPSC.  It also sounds like how a
self-defense shooter might well practice.  The only things that action
excludes are hunting and "like a post" shooting.  Kratz should get out
more often.
-andy
--
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: guns in backcountry? no thanks
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Lines: 25
In article <1qkcok$s9i@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ci946@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John K. Gever) writes:
>Public health experts will tell you that you are far more likely
>have your gun stolen, use it yourself on a family member or
>have it used on you than you are to use it on an actual criminal.
Actually, they won't.  What they'll tell you is that if you add up the
number of suicides, murders of one drug dealer by another, legit
self-defenses of a battered spouse, and so on, you'll end up with a
number that is much larger than the number of self-defense killings
against strangers committed in the bedroom.  (BTW - they didn't
honestly count the latter either, but let's not quibble.)  They
try to claim that comparison is between the costs of self-defense
and the benefits, but they're wrong.
This comparison doesn't measure the costs of self-defense and it
doesn't measure the benefits either.  For example, the goal is not to
kill the attacker, whatever your relationship to him, but to stop him.
While the number of killings may be proportional to the number of
stops, it isn't equal.
Anyone who confuses that comparison with an honest evaluation
is either lying or....
-andy
--
From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Subject: Re: Change of name ??
Lines: 31
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
In article <CMM.0.90.2.735383339.thomasp@surt.ifi.uio.no> Thomas Parsli <thomasp@ifi.uio.no> writes:
>NOTE!!!
>My posting was in reply to those about FBI torching the plasce after
>filling it with napalm, and arrested people dissapering.
>
>[...]
>
>About Waco
>It looks to me as the BATF and FBI can't handle situations like this.
>The way it went reminds me of 'stun' bomb beeing dropped on a house
>in LA from a helicopter. (Whole block went up in flames, 5 died...)
>
>It doesn't HAVE to be a conspiracy, MAYBE they just screwed up ???
I don't think we've got a conspiracy on our hands, or anything
vaugely similar.  I do think that the Feds showed a distinct lack of
both intelligence and disregard for others safety throughout this whole
mess.
I do think the FBI and the BATF screwed up big.  What made me
really concerned was FBI director William Sessions being on CNN engaging
in what could only be called spin control before the place had even
cooled down.  Evertyhing had literally blown up in their faces and I felt
there had to be something more important he should have been doing...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal Univ. of Tenn. Div. of Cont. Education Info. Services Group
PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "I still remember the way you laughed, the day
your pushed me down the elevator shaft;  I'm beginning to think you don't
love me anymore." - "Weird Al"
From: chuck@eng.umd.edu (Chuck Harris - WA3UQV)
Subject: Re: CNN for sale
Organization: University of Maryland, Department of Electrical Engineering
Lines: 11
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: bree.eng.umd.edu
In article <C5soMx.HMD@boi.hp.com> kde@boi.hp.com (Keith Emmen) writes:
>If anyone is keeping a list of the potential contributors,
>you can put me down for $1000.00 under the conditions above
Seems to me folks, that if you are so interested in acquiring CNN, just
buy your $1000 worth of stock today.  It's being traded everyday.  After you
own your piece, we can work on the proxy votes later.  It's probably even a
good investment.
Chuck Harris - WA3UQV
chuck@eng.umd.edu
From: whughes@lonestar.utsa.edu (William W. Hughes)
Subject: Re: WACO: Clinton press conference, part 1
Nntp-Posting-Host: lonestar.utsa.edu
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Lines: 13
In article <feustelC5tw49.7p5@netcom.com> feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel) writes:
>I predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the
>Federal Assault in Waco will result in future assaults of that type
>being conducted as full-scale military operations with explicit
>shoot-to-kill directives.
You mean they aren't already? Could have fooled me.
--
REMEMBER WACO!
Who will the government decide to murder next? Maybe you?
[Opinions are mine; I don't care if you blame the University or the State.]
From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
Lines: 77
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
In article <CMM.0.90.2.735386976.thomasp@surt.ifi.uio.no> Thomas Parsli <thomasp@ifi.uio.no> writes:
>I don't remember the figures EXACTLY, but there were about 3500 deaths in Texas
>in 1991 that was caused by guns.....
How about "firearm related."
>This is more than those beeing killed in car-ACCIDENTS!
Texas is unusual in this regard.  It would be nice to reduce them
both, though.
As Texas doesn't appear to have an murder rate that much higher than
the national average, I would expect it is a result of a much higher
suicide rate.
>*I* should not suffer because of others....
Be nice if you didn't have to suffer at all.
>We all agree on this one, BUT we also live in a sociaty and therefor
>we'll have to give up *SOME* of our 'freedom' (Note the '').
Here's where we run into a problem.  I am perfectly willing to
have government regulation on something which is likely to cause others
harm.  What we're discussing, though, is the extreme regulation of a large
group in order to target a small group, and I don't think that's
appropriate.
>Do you have an insurance??
>Then you'll have to pay because of what others do...
>
>Do you buy anything??
>YOU are paying for those who return goods, steal or even those who gets a bonus...
>
>Do you live with other people??
>Then you 'can't' do ererything you'd want (burping/farting playing music LOUD)
Does this, then, justify anything?  At some point you have to draw
a line (at least to my way of thinking) where the government must have
something a little more substantial than a set of percentages with which
to punish an individual.
Where do *you* draw the line?  Or is there one?
>One state (don't remember which, Texas??) tried to impose a rule that you could
>only buy ONE gun each MONTH. Think you all know what happened.....
Virginia.  It passed.
>I respect the right to defend yourself, but that right should not inflict on
>other people.
Does it?
>It seems like you all realize that you have a problem in America, the only
>problem is that you won't take the car away from the drunk driver, you
>hope to cure him first.
Cute analogy.
The U.S. doesn't treat drunk driving like a serious crime.  However,
we also don't confiscate cars of people who drink.  We also don't confiscate
*all* cars because some people drink and drive.  It's the core of the legal
system that in order to punish an individual (and I'd call property
confiscation a punishment) you must have evidence against that individual.
That is, it isn't enough to show that the majority of people convicted of
murder are white  in order to convict a particular white guy of murder.
>Hope life comfirms to the standard of Winnie the Poh.
Huh?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal Univ. of Tenn. Div. of Cont. Education Info. Services Group
PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu - "I still remember the way you laughed, the day
your pushed me down the elevator shaft;  I'm beginning to think you don't
love me anymore." - "Weird Al"
From: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard)
Subject: Re: Impeach Clinton, Reno
Reply-To: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Lines: 22
NNTP-Posting-Host: clesun.central.sun.com
>   I HEARTILY agree.  Now that the BATF warrant has been
>   unsealed, it is CLEAR that Clinton and Reno supported an
>  ILLEGAL raid.  Did they not KNOW this?
>     NO authority for a 'no-knock" raid
>    NO authority to use helicopters.
>     NO authority to search for a "drug lab"
>    And, apparently, not even any authority to search for "automatic
>    weapons".
>     51 days of GOVERNMENT LIES.
Sorry, I missed all this!  Can you please give an update on
the warrant?  I hadn't heard that it was unsealed.  There
was no authority for a "no-knock?"  This is news.  How about
an OK for a wiretap?
Please summarize!
From: pspod@hooch.lerc.nasa.gov (Steve Podleski)
Subject: Re: Waco, they did it.    ( MASADA )
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: hooch.lerc.nasa.gov
fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>msn@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Mike 'HK G3ZF Full-Auto' Newsome) writes:
>>> I'm sick to my stomach as I write this.  The BD compound
>>> is on fire, and will burn to the ground in minutes.
>I used exactly this one-word reply, to suggest a likely ending to
>the siege several weeks ago. But like Masada, this wasn't entirely
>a government action: The defenders held out as long as they could,
>and then killed themselves, their families and their children
>rather than surrender. Israel calls the action of the Zelots
>"heroic", and trains their army to follow this example. Now that
>someone has repeated this action in modern times, what do we call it?
Liberals and supporters of Clinton say that costs made the action
necessary.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Podleski			|     phone: 216-433-4000
NASA Lewis Research Center     	|
Cleveland, Ohio  44135         	|     email: pspod@hooch.lerc.nasa.gov
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Paul Hager" <hagerp@cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
Lines: 82
roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>In article <C5rrot.MMM@rice.edu> fontenot@ravl.rice.edu (Dwayne Jacques Fontenot) writes:
>>In article <C5rpoJ.IJv@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>>>In article <1993Apr19.184303.6205@stortek.com> vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak) writes:
>>>>
>>>  [...]
>>>> 5) Point out that even if the fire was set by someone inside of the
>>>>    building, it came as a direct result of the actions of the FBI/BATF.
>>>>    And the people inside (including 17 children) deserved a trial, instead
>>>>    of this.
>>>
>>>Well they had over 40 days to come out with their hands up on national tv
>>>to get the trial they deserved.  Instead they chose to set fire to their
>>>compund hours after the tanks dropped off the tear gas.
>>
>>Correction: The FBI says that the Davidians set fire to their buildings.
>And I suppose the FBI also prevented them from coming out with their
>hands up while national tv cameras watch.
Well the attorneys of the Davidians reported on Larry King that
the tanks had actually damaged the structure to the extent that
effectuating egress from the building was difficult at best.
With a rapidly spreading fire and large amounts of smoke and
tear gas, finding the right exits, or acceptible holes in the walls
were nearly impossible.  I find this explanation to be completely
plausible.  Doesn't mean that it's true, but I don't find it
intrinsically less believable than the government stories.
>>The FBI also said that the Davidians had a methanphetamine lab in their
>>basement and that the Davidians had .50 cal machine guns.
>>
>>Do you believe everything the FBI says?
>Do you disbelieve everything the FBI says?
>I balance my gut reaction to question authority together with the
>independent facts as I see them on video.  I usually adopt the
>scenario that is simplest and most plausible.  I do not generally
>believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely
>scenarios.
I concur.
>The BATF is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair.
>But to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is
>ludicrous.
Indeed.  According to the lawyers, the Davidian survivors say that
lanterns were knocked over during the "probing" and that's how
the fire started.  A tragic accident, if true.
>>Do you trust that snivelling little
>>piece of sh*t special agent Ricks? He seems to think he is a comedian, and
>>the media who laugh at his sick jokes are just as guilty as he, IMHO.
>>
>>>Up until now the BATF had been making me sick.  Today the people inside
>>>the compound who set the fire made me sick.  Keeping the children inside
>>>the compund when they should have been released earlier with the other
>>>people weeks ago is absolutely inexcuseable.  Not releasing them before
>>>deciding to set the place afire is the work of madmen.
>>>
>>>Two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set
>>>by cult members.
>>
>>Correction: The FBI says that two of the nine said the fire was deliberately
>>set by the sect members.
>If the fire were set by accident or by people outside the compound, I would
>have expected far more cult members to flee the compound.  Or at least come
>out shooting.
See above.  This one is going to be thoroughly investigated.  Maybe
we'll eventually get some idea of what happened.  My view is that,
from beginning to end, this operation was a botch and that it is
completely possible that nut cases who were otherwise law-abiding
citizens were victims of a bureaucratic execution.
--
paul hager		hagerp@moose.cs.indiana.edu
"I would give the Devil benefit of the law for my own safety's sake."
--from _A_Man_for_All_Seasons_ by Robert Bolt
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: guns in backcountry? no thanks
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Lines: 35
In article <1993Apr16.174436.22897@midway.uchicago.edu> pkgeragh@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Kevin Geraghty) writes:
>wrong about the  whole guns-for-protection mindset, it ignores the
>systemic effects of cumulative individual actions.  If you want fire
>insurance on your house that's prudent and it has no effect on me; but
>if you and a bunch of other paranoids are packing handguns in the
>backcountry it makes me, and anyone else who doesn't chose to protect
>himself in this manner, pretty f**king nervous.
Why?  If you're not a threat, you're not affected at all.
>I mean, take this to its logical conclusion, suppose we all carried
>handguns all the time, for protection from all the other people
>carrying handguns. Would we collectively be, or feel, safer? Hell no.
>We'd feel a lot more insecure.
Why?  I note that the available psych info says that feelings of
security INCREASE.  The victimization stats say that that increase
is rational.
>Another systemic effect of all the "good" people protecting themselves
>is that the "bad" people are going to modify their behavior in
>response:
Yes, they are, but how?
>they're going to be much itchier and much more willing to
>kill people in the course of routine muggings if they think their
Nope - that doesn't happen.  Instead the switch (among those who
change behaviors) to property crimes.  That's an improvement even if
the economic take is unchanged.  Sure - not everyone switches, but
they were killing before.
-andy
--
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: Backcountry Confidence
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Lines: 26
In article <C5L02E.8GH@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> rbw3q@rayleigh.mech.Virginia.EDU (Brad Whitehurst) writes:
>	The rest of us fall in the middle.  There IS too much violent
>crime in the U.S., but turning the whole country into an old-time
>Dodge City (ref. to American Old West) is not the way.
That's an interesting statement.  There's quite a difference between
Hollywood's "Old West" and the real one.  Yes, there were drunks,
saloons, mining camps, and thugs.  However, as McGrath showed, the
thugs preyed almost exclusively on one another.  McGrath claims that
this was due to the fact that no one much cared if someone who
insisted on getting into a fight got his way, even if he lost, while
they really did care when thugs preyed on others.
>citizens should be able to own weapons, but we see no sense in some
>types.
We haven't figured out that those distinctions don't actually work.
Machine guns have been strictly regulated since 1934.  Said regulation
is both perfect (legally owned machine guns aren't ever used
criminally) and a complete waste of time (the criminal use of machine
guns hasn't change at all).  The result - we're now arguing about
guns that LOOK like machine guns, but are no different than other
guns.
-andy
--
From: jagst18+@pitt.edu (Josh A Grossman)
Subject: Re: Dillon puts foot in mouth, film at 11
Organization: The Zets at the University of Pittsburgh (aka The Pitt)
Lines: 17
I have also heard about HCI claiming thant anyone they  get an address
from is a member.  If this is the case their membership rolls are
grossly inflated and we should not call them and give them a name
and address to add to their already false rolls.  Perhaps
if you could get a copy of their existing membership, then pretend to
be an existing member, do that several thousand times, you could
hurt HCI.  But names are power.  Remeber the NRA uses the fact
that it has 3 million paid members in order to flex its muscles.
Perhaps politicians don't realize the lying tactics of HCI, wait a
minute, HCI learned it from politicians....
Later,
Josh
From: clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (C. H. Lochmuller)
Subject: Re: Dillon puts foot in mouth...
Lines: 21
# So the Blue PRess suggests that we bankrupt HCI by requesting information
# and the concern by list members is that HCI will claim everyone that calls
# as a new member.  I think they will. I also think they will claim a new
# MANDATE to ban all firearms from the solar system wheter we call and ask for
# information or not!
#
# On the other hand, with due respect to the Editor of the Blue PRess, just
# becaue Mike makes damned good presses, dies, powder scales, and got tired of
# Lee's atacks DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVERY DILLON FAN FOLLOWS WHAT MIKE CALLS FOR
# LIKE HE WAS KARESH AND WE WERE TRANSDILLIDIANS!
#
# Our local State Assemblyman has called for a complete ban on all non-bolt
# action military rifles and all assault weapons, a 7 day wait for purchase
# permits { it currently takes 10 to 14 working days here in NC } and one
# permit/year. The flood of calls he got was 7 for and 3 against. Guess who
# called supporting his move? Guess what ILA is doing? Right?
#
# CHL
#
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: Dillon puts foot in mouth, film at 11
Organization: The Cat Factory & Mushroom Farm
Lines: 20
In article <199304160443.AA25231@sun.Panix.Com> justice@Panix.Com (Michael Justice) writes:
}Dillon has published a letter in the Blue Press telling people
}"How to Bankrupt HCI" by requesting information from them.
}
}Last time this idea went around in rec.guns, a couple of people
}said that HCI counts all information requestors as "members".
}
}Can anyone confirm or deny this?
}
}If true, what's the impact of HCI getting a few thousand new
}members?
Last I heard, HCI had something like 250K members to the NRA's 3 million.
If true, and they want to play duelling mandates, well ...
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                      Laws define crime.
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483       Police enforce laws.
Santa Monica, CA  90405                            Citizens prevent crime.
From: yoony@aix.rpi.edu (Young-Hoon Yoon)
Subject: Re: JFFO has gone a bit too far
Nntp-Posting-Host: aix.rpi.edu
Distribution: usa
Lines: 29
rats@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Morris the Cat) writes:
>|>Would somebody please post evidence that the gun control act of
>|>1968 is "a verbatim transcription" of a nazi law?
>|The "evidence" is that the two laws are basically identical.
>|However, that's not evidence that one is a copy of the other.
>|There's no evidence that the 68 GCA's authors used the nazi law as a
>|guide.  Yes, they ended up with roughly the same thing, but that comes
>|from their shared goal, disarming those menacing minorities.
>I thought the same thing too, until JPFO's RKBA article
>in the latest Guns & Ammo
>at the newstands. This article makes it certain that Sen. Thomas Dodd
>(D-MD?) back before 1968 definitely asked for a translation of the
>German weapons laws back then. Read the article, and see what you think
>of JPFO's argument. They note that Ted Kennedy and John Dingell are
>among the three of the originals left from the 1968 stuff, and they
>are asking that folks request of John Dingell that he introduce
>legislation to lift GCA '68, something which I would support whole-
>heartedly!
>|-andy
Can someone post a general idea of what GCA '68 does?
Thanks.
From: yoony@aix.rpi.edu (Young-Hoon Yoon)
Subject: Re: Constitutionality of 18 U.S.C 922(o)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aix.rpi.edu
Distribution: usa
Lines: 50
brians@atlastele.com (Brian Sheets) writes:
>You know, I was reading 18 U.S.C. 922 and something just did not make
>sence and I was wondering if someone could help me out.
>Say U.S.C. 922 :
>(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for
>any person to transfer or possess a machinegun.
> Well I got to looking in my law dictionary and I found that a "person"
>might also be an artificial entity that is created by government
>and has no rights under the federal constitution. So, what I
>don't understand is how a statute like 922 can be enforced on
>an individual. So someone tell me how my government can tell
>me what I can or cannot possess. Just passing a law
>does not make it LAW. Everyone knows that laws are constitional
>until it goes to court. So, has it ever gone to court, not
>just your run of the mill "Ok I had it I am guilty, put me in jail"
>Has anyone ever claimed that they had a right to possess and was told
>by the Supreme Court that they didn't have that right?
>--
>Brian Sheets		    _   /|  	"TRUCK?! What truck?"
>Support Engineer  	    \`o_O'
>Atlas Telecom Inc. 	      ( ) 	   -Raiders of the Lost Ark
>brians@atlastele.com           U
I'm not a lawyer but to the best of my understanding, the Congress has no
more rights than what is enumerated in the constitution.  That is the
prime reason why the National Firearms Act is based on collecting revenue.
Since the Congress has the authority to levy taxes, the NFA is a tax act and
the registration requirement within it is to assist in that tax collection.
U.S.C 922, in order to be constitutional, must have a basis on a particular
authority granted to the Congress by the Constitution.  Congress can not
arbitrarily ban a substance or product.  That is why prohibition came into
effect, only by passing an ammendment.   What you said about constitutionality
of law needs to be clarified.  I believe that an unconstitutional law was
never constitutional.  When a law is determined by the Supreme Court, to be
unconstitutional, that law was never really a law.  The very nature of the law
being unconstitutional invalidates the law at it's inception.  Please correct
me if I'm wrong, but when a law is deemed to be unconstitutional, anyone
convicted of breaking that law is absolved.
I don't believe U.S.C 922 has ever been challenged in court.  NFA has been
invalidated in two Federal District Court cases( one may have been appellate
level{ U.S. vs Rock Island Armory  and U.S. vs Dalton}).
From: allanh@sco.COM (Allan J. Heim)
Subject: Re: Ban All Firearms !
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Lines: 34
jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu:
Firearms tend to fall into this low dollar/pound area.  It would not
be economic to smuggle them in.  All production would have to be
local.  There are not all that many people who have both the skill
AND motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch.
High-ranking crime figures could obtain imported Uzis and such, but
the average person, and average thug, would be lucky to get a zip-gun
- and would pay through the nose for it.
Good point you make.  However, a zip gun, by definition, is a crude,
homemade gun--certainly not something capable of sustained, accurate
fire, but it would be useful as a means of getting a normal gun.  Recall
the tiny, single-shot pistols made by the Allies during World War II for
use by partisans.  They were essentially well-made zipguns, incapable of
effective fire beyond a few feet.  But they were useful as a means of
killing German soldiers for their guns.
Also note that the crowd-pleasin' favorite, the Sten gun, was
specifically designed to require as little machine work as possible.
The point's been made here that one could make a Sten clone with steel
tubing, hand tools and a welder.
I still think that while the point is good, I think there's a difference
between marijuana and firearms, in that quality marijuana can be grown
locally; there's no need to import the stuff.  If guns are banned, I
think the demand for "real" guns will be sufficient to make smuggling
economically feasible, thus rendering a ban moot.  In any case, the
result would be the same--people who aren't criminals won't have
firearms, and "bad guys" will continue to have access to them, one way
or another.  And I don't see that as a necessary situation.
--
Allan J. Heim   allanh@sco.COM   ...!uunet!sco!allanh   +1 408 427 7813
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: FYI - BATF reply on Waco
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 52
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com
In article <C5L480.K7u@elite.intel.com> dgw@elite.intel.com (Dennis Willson)
writes:
[..]
>
> On February 28, 1993, the special agents attempting to serve the
> Federal search warrant were all dressed in apparel clearly identified
> with the letters "ATF" and a highly visible police-type badge.
> Additionally, the special agents announced who they were and their
> purpose for being at the compound.
>
> Immediately following this announcement, gunfire erupted from the
> compound, resulting in the deaths of four ATF special agents and the
> wounding of several others.  Through no fault of ATF, the element of
> surprise was lost, which caused the tragedy.
This statement simply amazes me!  "Through no fault of ATF, the element of
surprise was lost"!  What element of surprise?  In the paragraph preceding this
one, he said "... the special agents announced who they were and their purpose
for being at the compound", which was to serve the federal warrant.  No element
of surprise was even needed for that.
No, the element of surprise that they lost was that needed for a preemptive
first strike, without warning.
> Inasmuch as the warrants
> remain sealed by a U.S. magistrate, and the investigation remains in an
> active ongoung status, we are prohibited from disclosing any further
> information at this time.
>
Read: They need to wait until they see how it comes out before they fabricate
anymore, which could get disproven.
> We hope we have been responsive to your letter.  Please let us know
> whenever we may be of service.
>
>                           Sincerely yours,
>
>                           Daniel M. H??l??tt  [can't make out signature]
>                           Deputy Director
As always, no facts, just my opinions/observations.
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
From: loki@acca.nmsu.edu (Entropic Destroyer)
Subject: Re: Need info on 43:1 and suicide for refutation
Organization: New Mexico State University
Lines: 26
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: rever.nmsu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Entropic Destroyer (loki@acca.nmsu.edu) wrote:
: I have seen these numbers quoted before, and I have seen very specific
: refutation of them quoted as well.  If someone will be so kind as to
: email the relevant information, I will write a letter to the editor of
: the Co. Daily (which might get published) and send a copy to USN&WR as
: well.
Thanks to all who responded.  The letter has been written (making liberal
use of info provided by various net.folks) and handed to the paper.  I'll
post if it gets into the paper!
--Dan
--
DoD #202 / loki@acca.nmsu.edu / liberty or death / taylordf@ucsu.colorado.edu
Send me something even YOU can't read...
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From: guy@idacom.hp.com (Guy M. Trotter)
Subject: Re: guns in backcountry? no thanks
Organization: IDACOM, A division of Hewlett-Packard
Lines: 14
Hi,
In Canada, any gun that enters a National Park must be sealed (I think it's a
small metal tag that's placed over the trigger).  The net result of this is
that you _can't_ use a gun to protect yourself from bears (or psychos) in the
National Parks.  Instead, one has to be sensitive to the dangers and annoyances
of hiking in bear country, and take the appropriate precautions.
I think this policy makes the users of the National Parks feel a little closer
to Nature, that they are a part of Nature and, as such, have to deal with
nature on it's own terms.
Guy
From: f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Subject: RE: the truth starts to come out
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University
Lines: 28
In article <C5uA7r.DAD@da_vinci.it.uswc.uswest.com>, pprun@august.it.uswc.uswest.com writes:
>
>
> I have just one thing to say about this: WRITE YOUR CONGRESSPERSON!
> The FBI and BATF storm troopers must not be allowed to get away with
> this.  Demand a full investigation of the Waco survivor's story of
> the lantern being knocked over by the tank.  We can't bring anybody
> back from the dead, but we may be able to send a few of them to
> political hell.
I heard over NPR yesterday morning that Arlan Specter, Senator from
Pennsylvania, has already called for a Congressional investigation.
The problem is that Specter was one of the key government attorneys several
years ago who did what he could to coverup facts in the assassinations
of JFK and others.  That is to say, the Chief Fox wants to check out
the hen house.  Writing your representatives is a great idea.  When
you do ask that they keep Specter and his cronies far away from
any investigation.
>
> Would someone please post the generic addresses for Congress and
> Senate so that we can all write letters?
--
*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *
Joe Gaut                    |   In the super-state, it really does not
<f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> |   matter at all what actually happened.
Red-neck and proud of it.   |   Truth is what the government chooses to
|   tell you.  Justice is what it wants to happen.
Jim Garrison, New Orleans, La.
From: turmoil@halcyon.com (Tim Crowley)
Subject: Re: WACO: Clinton press conference, part 1
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: nwfocus.wa.com
cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston) writes:
>Could y'all PLEASE stop posting this stuff to tx.general.  tx.politics
>is sufficient and is where this stuff belongs.  Thanks.
>	Cathy
>--
>Cathy Foulston + Rice University + Network & Systems Support + cathyf@rice.edu
WHY??????????
From: stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce)
Subject: Re: Andy:  how do we stop people with a gun?
Summary: Guns can kill: that's why I have them.
Keywords: guns handguns rifles shotguns
Reply-To: stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce)
Distribution: na
Organization: Handmade Designs, Salem, OR, USA
Lines: 169
In article <1993Apr7.141930.29582@freenet.carleton.ca>
ac002@Freenet.carleton.ca (Nikolaus Maack) writes:
>Come on.   A gun kills people.
Rather, people kill people with guns.  The sad truth is: sometimes that is
good, or at least, better than the alternative.
>But let's ignore guns for defence and/or crime and look at gun accidents.
Ok.  There are about 1400 fatal firearm accidents per year [1], and the
number has been in decline since early this century [2].  Most of these
accidents involve rifles or shot guns, not handguns.
...
>But seriously: a gun is designed to fire a bullet.   This is not so you
>can shoot cardboard cut outs down at the range.
In fact there are both guns and bullets designed specifically for that.
The idea that my Ruger Mark II Bull Barrel (a semi-auto 0.22 caliber
handgun) was designed to kill or hurt people, even for self defense,
would, I'm sure, come as a surprise to its designer.  It certainly isn't
why I have it.  It certainly would hurt someone if you shot them with it,
and might even kill them, but it is simply wrong to say it was designed to
kill people.
>This is not designed to act as a tool for home  defence where you show
>someone  that you have a gun and they go "Gee, perhaps I should leave".
In fact, that is what happens most of the time.  Most self defensive uses
of firearms don't involve firing any shots.  Most criminals would prefer
not to be shot, and will go to some effort not to be, including doing what
you say when you point a gun at them.
If you were called on to design a tool, that could be easily carried, to
immediately stop someone attacking you, what would it be?  A handgun is
about the best anyone has come up with and experience shows it does work
the best.[3]
>No, you see the gun was designed to fire that little bullet into a human
>body and hurt them.  Not a tough concept to swallow, for most.
Certainly, no one argues that handguns (of the type we are discussing)
aren't deadly weapons.  However, it simply isn't true to say that all of
them were designed to kill people.  Moreover, what exactly is wrong with
having deadly weapons?  There are times when it is perfectly legitimate to
use deadly force, e.g. in self defense.  I consider it not just my right,
but my duty to defend myself and my family, and that includes having and
knowing how to use the tools to do that.
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear
arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in
government."
- T. Jefferson.
I think what Jefferson said is still true.
>And the trouble with having such an item is often the little bullet goes
>off into the wrong fleshy target.
Not very often compared to other use.[3]
>Or else Uncle Frank gets pissed and blows  away his wife.
This isn't that common either, at least when compared to other uses.  It is
very rare that a non-violent person will suddenly "get-pissed" and kill
someone, gun or not.  In most cases, the people who murder have long
histories of violence.  If you have good reason to believe that these
people wouldn't kill if they didn't have a gun, feel free to present it.
>Having a thing  specificly designed to kill means it is much easier to
>kill things.  Right?
Right, but there are times when killing things is called for.  I hope I
never have to shoot a person, but I've had to kill a number of animals from
rodents to cows, and when I do, I don't want them to suffer any more than
is necessary.  I prefer they die instantly, but failing that, I want them
to drop so I can quickly finish them with the next shot, and failing that,
I don't want them to go fast or far.  I try to choose the best weapon and
ammunition I have to try to achieve that goal for the size of animal I'm
after, but it doesn't always work as I plan.  Without belaboring the point,
people who are overly impressed with the killing or shopping power of guns,
particularly handguns, haven't used them much for that purpose.
[1] Accidental deaths in 1988:
48700 deaths by auto
11300 deaths by fall
5300 deaths by drowning
4800 deaths by fire
4400 deaths by poison
3200 deaths by food
1400 deaths by firearm
Source: Statistics Department, National Safety Council.
"Accidents Facts 1988 Edition". National Safety Council.
444 N. Michigan Avenue, Chicago IL  606111  (800) 621-7619
[2] RKBA.002 - Declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms
Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/23 at 22:28:19)
DESCRIPTION
===========
The accidental deaths by firearm per capita has been declining steadily
for almost sixty years. In 1932, the accidental deaths by firearm per
1,000,000 people was 24.03. In 1987, it was 5.74. The decline has been
steady, consistent, and a fairly straight line when plotted. At the rate
of the last sixty years, it will reach zero sometime around 2025 AD.
CONCLUSION
==========
Firearms have been a declining factor in accidental deaths for over
sixty years, despite rising per-capita gun ownership.
[1] = Year.
[2] = Population.
[3] = Accidental deaths.
[4] = Accidental deaths per 1,000,000.
[1]   [2]          [3]    [4]       [1]   [2]          [3]    [4]
1932  124,840,000  3,000  24.03     1961  183,691,000  2,204  12.00
1933  125,579,000  3,014  24.00     1962  186,538,000  2,092  11.21
1934  126,374,000  3,033  24.00     1963  189,242,000  2,263  11.96
1935  127,250,000  2,799  22.00     1964  191,889,000  2,275  11.86
1936  128,053,000  2,817  22.00     1965  194,303,000  2,344  12.06
1937  128,825,000  2,576  20.00     1966  196,560,000  2,558  13.01
1938  129,825,000  2,726  21.00     1967  198,712,000  2,896  14.57
1939  130,880,000  2,618  20.00     1968  200,706,000  2,394  11.93
1940  132,122,000  2,375  17.98     1969  202,677,000  2,309  11.39
1941  133,402,000  2,396  17.96     1970  204,879,000  2,406  11.74
1942  134,860,000  2,678  19.86     1971  207,661,000  2,360  11.36
1943  136,739,000  2,282  16.69     1972  209,896,000  2,442  11.63
1944  138,397,000  2,392  17.28     1973  211,909,000  2,618  12.35
1945  139,928,000  2,385  17.04     1974  213,854,000  2,613  12.22
1946  141,389,000  2,801  19.81     1975  215,854,000  2,380  11.03
1947  144,126,000  2,439  16.92     1976  218,035,000  2,059   9.44
1948  146,631,000  2,191  14.94     1977  220,239,000  1,982   9.00
1949  149,188,000  2,330  15.62     1978  222,585,000  1,806   8.11
1950  151,684,000  2,174  14.33     1979  225,055,000  2,004   8.90
1951  154,287,000  2,247  14.56     1980  227,757,000  1,955   8.58
1952  156,954,000  2,210  14.08     1981  230,138,000  1,871   8.13
1953  159,565,000  2,277  14.27     1982  232,520,000  1,756   7.55
1954  162,391,000  2,271  13.98     1983  234,799,000  1,695   7.22
1955  165,275,000  2,120  12.83     1984  237,001,000  1,668   7.04
1956  168,221,000  2,202  13.09     1985  239,279,000  1,649   6.89
1957  171,274,000  2,369  13.83     1986  241,613,000  1,600   6.62
1958  174,141,000  2,172  12.47     1987  243,915,000  1,400   5.74
1959  177,073,000  2,258  12.75
1960  180,671,000  2,334  12.92
Sources:
U.S. Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States,
Colonial Times to 1970, Bicentennial Edition, Part 2, Washington, DC, 1975.
U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States:
1982-83. (103th edition.) Washington, DC, 1982 [sic]..
U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States:
1989 (109th edition.)  Washington, DC, 1989.
[3] Kleck, Gary.  "Guns and Self-Defense: Crime Control through the Use of
Force in the Private Sector."  __Social Problems__ 35(1988):4, pp. 7-9.
--
orstcs!opac!bug!stevef          I am the NRA              Steven R. Fordyce
uunet!sequent!ether!stevef         . . .       The only fair tax is no tax!
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago, academic Computer Center
From: Jason Kratz <U28037@uicvm.uic.edu>
Subject: Statement to everyone on t.p.g
Lines: 24
Ok, here goes.  Yes folks, I realize I have stuck my foot in my mouth
quite a few times already so please let me make some clarifications.  My
inaccurate information in my posts was due to lack of knowledge.  Thanks
to you kind (and some not so kind) people I am learning.   Some people
have given me several good points to ponder and I see how I was wrong.
In no way was this inaccurate information supposed to be trying to
further the anti-gun cause.  I have said several times before (but
nobody seemed to be listening) that I am pro-gun and anti-gun-control.
As far as the race can of worms that I have opened up I have only one
thing to say - I am in no way prejudiced.  Some of the things I have
stated were said to demonstrate that I am not prejudiced and/or a racist
but I have been accused of being too aware of race and prejudiced.  I will not
say anymore about that subject because no matter what I say it will be the
wrong thing.
Boy, what a start to being on a new group.  Oh well, things have been
worse in my life.
I hope this clears things up but I guess that will remain to be seen.
By for now,
Jason
From: kratz@cs.uiuc.edu (Jason Kratz)
Subject: Re: criminals & machineguns
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Distribution: usa
Lines: 52
In <1993Apr16.202441.16032@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
>In article <93104.175256U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> Jason Kratz <U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>people are getting killed by gang violence every day?  Every single day I hear
>>about more people getting killed by gang violence and see some of the weapons
>>that are being confiscated.
>Is Kratz claiming that he can reliably visually distinguish an M-16
>from an AR-15?  That he can see the difference between a semi-auto and
>a full-auto UZI?  That he can see the difference between the various
>versions (some full-auto, some semi-auto only) of the M-11/9?
Well, let me see.  UZI, no.  M-11/9, no.  M-16/AR-15, maybe.  I remember there
being a selector swtich on the AR-15.  If I remember correctly (please correct
me if I'm wrong) the switch would set to an "off" position or an "on" position
because the gun (AR-15) is semi-automatic.  Wouldn't the M-16 have a position
for semi-auto fire and full-auto fire (or maybe 3 round bursts)?  If this is
correct wouldn't it be easy to distinguish each gun by this alone?  Of course
if the AR-15 were modified to full-auto fire I wouldn't think it would be that
easy but I'm talking about distinguishing between an unmodified AR-15 and M-16.
How about the other guns?  Do they also have selector switch to switch between
semi-auto and fully-auto fire?
>If so, I'd love to hear the details, if only because they'll demonstrate
>that Kratz is blowing smoke.
>Considering that one can design a gun so that it looks just like
>another gun, yet have very different properties, and that that's
>quite common....
>Most kids in my neighborhood were quite young when they figured out
>that my parents car wasn't much like Richard Petty's, even though it
>looked just like it (except for the paint job).  Things must have been
>different with Kratz.
Actually it was pretty hard for the kids in my neighborhood to figure that out
as Richard Petty lived in my neighborhood and left his stock car in the
driveway. ;-)
>>Sure it's on TV but why does that make a difference?
>No, it doesn't, but that's irrelevant.  If visual inspection of the
>outside worked, TV would be acceptable, but since it doesn't, the fact
>that it's just as good as seeing in person doesn't mean much.
Well, what about what I said above?  If that is correct I guess TV would be
acceptable (if you had a good enough picture and a picture of the lower
receiver of the AR-15/M-16).
>-andy gave Kratz a chance to back down on this in private
>--
Jason Kratz <- didn't take andy's offer to back down in private
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: Ban All Firearms !
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Distribution: usa
Lines: 24
As quoted from <1993Apr17.025258.7013@microsoft.com> by anthonyf@microsoft.com (Anthony Francisco):
> cmort:
> | If anybody wanted proof of the nonsense of the "you can't build guns" claim,
> | they need look no farther than the Philippines.  Amateur gunsmiths there
> | regularly produce everything from .45 automatics to full auto shotguns.  Now
> | if this guy wants to claim that the Philippines is either technologically
> | superior to the US or that their transportation is better than ours, all I
> | can say is that he's living in a fantasy world.
>
> Unfortunately a few of those .45s blow up in your hands.
That's life.  First you marry Imelda Marcos, then you die! :)
> On the other hand, my compatriots built an excellent copy of a Beretta that
> I enjoyed using when I lived in the Philippines. Hmmmm.
And that's the HARD stuff to copy!
--
===================================================================
"You're like a bunch of over-educated, New York jewish ACLU lawyers
fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in
Arkansas" - Holly Silva
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Some more about gun control...
Nntp-Posting-Host: ucsu.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 18
In article <2071@rwing.UUCP> pat@rwing.UUCP (Pat Myrto) writes:
>What I find so hard to understand is how come some people, apparantly
>NOT connected with government or otherwise privileged, will
>go to great lengths, redefinitions, re-interpretations, in a full-bore
>attempt to THROW AWAY THE PROTECTION OF THEIR OWN RIGHTS under the
>Constitution!!!
>Almost makes me think of lemmings running into the sea during a lemming
>year...
>I really wonder that Jefferson and Madison would say to these folks?
They'd probably quote Montesque (sp?) who was once asked if Russia
was likely to become a democracy any time soon: "No, because
Russia is a nation of slaves and the people get what they deserve."
Since he said that, Russia has changed a great deal. But so,
unfortunately have other nations.
Frank Crary
CU Boulder
Nntp-Posting-Host: surt.ifi.uio.no
From: Thomas Parsli <thomasp@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
In-Reply-To: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)'s message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993
07:24:55 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
<1qjmnuINNlmd@clem.handheld.com>
<CMM.0.90.2.734911642.thomasp@surt.ifi.uio.no>
<viking.734945095@ponderous.cc.iastate.edu>
Lines: 72
Originator: thomasp@surt.ifi.uio.no
Gun clubs:
If you are a member you CAN borrow weapons....(Suprised??)
You are supposed to train with a .22 for the 6 months, THEN
you can start with anything bigger.
Drivers licence:
Forgot that USA is THE land of cars.....
Getting one in Scandinavia (and northern europe) is not easy.
Average time is about 20 hours of training, and the cost is rather......
But we think this is acceptable because a car is NOT a toy, and
bad drivers tend to hurt OTHERS.
(If you are really bad, you WON'T get a lincence!)
Abuse by the goverment:
This seems to be one of the main problems; Any harder gun-control
would just be abused by the goverment.(!)
Either some of you are a little paranoid (no offence...) OR you should
get a new goverment. (You do have elections??)
Guns 'n Criminals:
MOST weapons used by criminals today are stolen.
Known criminals can NOT buy weapons, that's one of the points of gun control.
And because gun control are strict in WHOLE scandinavia (and most of europe),
we dont have any PROBLEM with smuggled guns.
Mixing weapons and things that can be use as one:
What I meant was that cars CAN kill, but they are not GUNS!
Someone said that if we 'ban' guns we'd have to ban cars to, because they 'kill' to...
I don't think we should argue on this one..... ;)
The issue (I hope..):
I think we all agree that the criminals are the main problem.
Guns are not a problem, but the way they are used is.... (and what are they for??)
I think this discusion is interesting when you think of (ex)Jugoslavia:
They should all have weapons, it's their rigth to have them, and if they use them
to kill other (Innocent) people the problem is humans, not guns.
If 50% of ALL murders was done with axes, would you impose some regulations on them
or just say that they are ment to be used at trees, and that the axe is not a problem,
it's the 'axer' ??
(An example, don't flame me just because not exactly 50% are killed by guns...)
Think about the situation in Los Angeles where people are buying guns to protect
themselves. Is this a good situation ?? Is it the rigth way to deal with the problem ??
If everybody buys guns to protect themselves from criminals (and their neighbor who have
guns) what do you think will happen ?? (I mean if everybody had a gun in USA)
Don't flame the Englishmen because of Northern Irland, they have gun control that works
(in England) and fonds from USA are one of the reasons why IRA can bomb innocents...
(Something about throwing stones in glass houses...)
Don't flame them because of what to (three?) children did either.
(Can an Jugoslav have an oppinion on guns or even peace??) (YES!)
(My numbers about crime rates after restrictions on shot-guns are from the police
and the Statistisk Sentralbyraa) (understood that one Sorenson??)
LAST WORD:
Responsible gun owners are not a problem, but they will be affected if you want to protect
your citicens.
This is not a .signature.
It's merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith
and to bring down the evil Internet.
Thomas Parsli
thomasp@ifi.uio.no
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: Guns GONE. Good Riddance !
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Lines: 28
As quoted from <1993Apr18.000152.2339@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> by jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu:
> The press is against you, the public (the voting public) is against
> you, the flow of history is against you ... this is it !
Kind of sounds like Plessy v. Ferguson, huh?  Of course as in that case,
things change, huh?
> Too fucking bad. You have gone the way of the KKK. Violent solutions
> are passe'. Avoid situations which encourage criminals. Then you will
> be as safe as possible. Such as it is ...
>
No, if your little fantasy comes to pass, the country will have gone
TOWARD the KKK.  You're of course being a little disengenuous.  Violent
solutions are never passe FOR THE GOVERNMENT and CRIMINALS (who frequently)
cannot be distinguished).
"Avoid situations which encourage criminals"?  You mean don't be a woman?
Don't be Black?  Don't be gay?  I'm quite certain that having a surfeit of
unarmed victims will discourage your beloved KKK from engaging in "violent
solutions"....
--
===================================================================
"You're like a bunch of over-educated, New York jewish ACLU lawyers
fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in
Arkansas" - Holly Silva
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: The Real Reason Politicians Want Guns Confiscated
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting
Lines: 12
Politicians want to eliminate private ownership of guns before the
general public starts violently resisting the tax increases needed
to fund the federal government as an ever higher percentage of tax
revenue goes to pay interest on the national debt (currently 57 cents
out of every tax dollar collected and rising).
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
I'm beginning to look forward to reaching the %100 allocation of taxes
to pay for the interest on the national debt. At that point the
federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds.
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS. ( was :Israel: misisipi to ganges)
Originator: hasan@lightning.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: lightning.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Lines: 26
In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET>, ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
|>
|> Hassan and some other seemed not to be a ware that Jews celebrating on
|> these days Thje Passover holliday the holidy of going a way from the
|> Nile.
|> So if one let his imagination freely work it seemed beter to write
|> that the Zionist drean is "from the misisipi to the Nile ".
the question is by going East or West from the misisipi. on either choice
you would loose Palestine or Broklyn, N.Y.
I thought you're gonna say fromn misisipi back to the misisipi !
|> By the way :
|>
|> What are the borders the Islamic world dreams about ??
|>
|> Islamic readers, I am waiting to your honest answer.
Let's say : " let's establish the islamic state first" or "let's free our
occupied lands first". And then we can dream about expansion, Mr. Gideon
hasan
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Lines: 16
In article <3456@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>In <C4xKBx.53F@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>>How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?
>
>That reminds me of the Armenian massacre of the Turks.
>
>Joel, I took out SCT, are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who
>greps for Mason Kibo's last name lest he include AFU in his daily
>rounds?
I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
but in fact is an Armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the
massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
of confusion.
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?
Article-I.D.: news.2BC0D53B.20378
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
In article <1993Apr5.211146.3662@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>In article <3456@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>>In <C4xKBx.53F@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>>>How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?
>>
>>That reminds me of the Armenian massacre of the Turks.
>>
>>Joel, I took out SCT, are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who
>>greps for Mason Kibo's last name lest he include AFU in his daily
>>rounds?
>
>I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
>(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
>but in fact is an Armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the
>massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
>impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
>of confusion.
DIs it possible to track down "zuma" and determine who/what/where "seradr" is?
If not, why not? I assu\me his/her/its identity is not shielded by policies
similar to those in place at "anonymous" services.
Tim
D
D
D
Very simpl
Subject: Re: If You Feed Armenians Dirt -- You Will Bite Dust!
From: senel@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (Hakan)
Organization: Vanderbilt University
Summary: Armenians correcting the geo-political record.
Nntp-Posting-Host: snarl02
Lines: 18
In article <1993Apr5.194120.7010@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Apr5.064028.24746@kth.se> hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
>writes:
>David Davidian says: Armenians have nothing to lose! They lack food, fuel, and
>warmth. If you fascists in Turkey want to show your teeth, good for you! Turkey
>has everything to lose! You can yell and scream like barking dogs along the
Davidian, who are fascists? Armenians in Azerbaijan are killing Azeri
people, invading Azeri soil and they are not fascists, because they
lack food ha? Strange explanation. There is no excuse for this situation.
Herkesi fasist diye damgala sonra, kendileri fasistligin alasini yapinca,
"ac kaldilar da, yiyecekleri yok amcasi, bu seferlik affedin" de. Yurrruuu,
yuru de plaka numarani alalim......
Hakan
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Jews in LATVIA - some documents
Article-I.D.: zuma.9304052018
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 407
In article <C4zvvG.50D@unix.amherst.edu> nwbernst@unix.amherst.edu (Neil Bernstein) writes:
: Pardon me? Here is to an amherst-clown:
:
: "Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
:  of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged
:  massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
:  intolerable.
>This is about Armenia.
Were you expecting a different response? Here is another one:
Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934,
(73 pages with Appendix).
p. 25 (third paragraph)
"Some real fighters sprang up from among the people, who struck terror
into the hearts of the Turks."
"Within a few months after the war began, these Armenian guerrilla
forces, operating in close coordination with the Russians, were
savagely attacking Turkish cities, towns and villages in the east,
massacring their inhabitants without mercy, while at the same time
working to sabotage the Ottoman army's war effort by destroying roads
and bridges, raiding caravans, and doing whatever else they could to
ease Russian occupation. The atrocities committed by the Armenian
volunteer forces accompanying the Russian army were so severe that the
Russian commanders themselves were compelled to withdraw them from the
fighting fronts and sent them to rear guard duties. The memoirs of many
Russian officers who served in the east at this time are filled with
accounts of the revolting atrocities committed by these Armenian
guerrillas, which were savage even by relatively primitive standards of
war then observed in such areas.[1]"
[1] "Journal de Guerre du Deuxieme d'Artillerie de Forteresse Russe
d'Erzeroum," 1919, p. 28.
: >honored me by reproducing my text.  Unfortunately, he has still not produced
: >the "documents" on "Jews in LATVIA."  Instead, he asks for my views on the
: >"Turkish Genocide."  Well, that debate seems to be going on in a few hundred
: >other threads.  I'll let other people bring the usual charges, try to debunk
: >Mutlu/Argic/Cosar (a net-wide Terrorism Triangle?) and their spurious evidence.
:
: When that does ever happen, look out the window to see if there is a
: non-fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government in the East. Now, where is
: your non-existent list of scholars? What a moronian. During the First
: World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the Armenian Dictatorship
: through a premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its
: centuries-old policy of annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by
: savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from
: their 1,000 year homeland.
>This paragraph is well-written and interesting, Serdar baby, but it has nothing
>to do with Jews in LATVIA.  I have not presented a list of scholars.
How could you? Because there is none.
>I am not
>interested in an ex-Soviet (why do you write x-?  It's very cute) Armenian
>Government, non-fascist or otherwise.  You are not responding to what I am
>writing.  Instead, you are autoposting your own particular brand of bullshit.
Like conversing with a brick wall. And you are not responding to what I
am writing. By the way, that "bullshit" is justly regarded as the first
instance of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
For nearly one thousand years, the Turkish and Kurdish people lived
on their homeland - the last one hundred under the oppressive Soviet
and Armenian occupation. The persecutions culminated in 1914: The
Armenian Government planned and carried out a Genocide against its
Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were murdered and the
remainder driven out of their homeland. After one thousand years,
Turkish and Kurdish lands were empty of Turks and Kurds.
The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.
Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.
Today, x-Soviet Armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its
predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against
humanity.
x-Soviet Armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the Muslims
by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the Turks and Kurds.
>You have now done so four times in a row.  May I legitimately conclude that
>you are not, indeed, a regular net-user, but an auto-posting computer program?
>(which, for convenience, I have called MUTLU.EXE.)
You may assert whatever you wish.
>Here we go with MUTLU.EXE's famed list of sources:
Ditto.
: The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
: of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
: This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
: and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark
: Bristol, ...
>(and on and on for 46 lines)
And still anxiously awaiting...
: .......so the list goes on and on and on.....
:
: >I'm still trying to find out about those Jews in LATVIA.  Can you post those
: >documents PLEEEEEEEASE, Mr. Argic?  Puh-leeze could you?  C'mon, it's my
: >birthday in three weeks... post them for me as a birthday present.
:
: Remember, the issue at hand is the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million
: Muslim people by the Armenians between 1914-1920, and the Armenian-Nazi
: collaboration during World War II. Anything to add?
>No, darling, READ what I post!  Other people are asking you about the Turkish
>genocide.  I am asking you to produce the documents on Jews in Latvia.  No
>matter how many times you erase what I post, I will still post the same
>question.  Post the documents on Jews in Latvia.  Do not autopost the same
>block of text about the Turkish genocide.
Remember, the issue at hand is the Armenian-Nazi collaboration during
World War II and the Turkish Genocide. And I still fail to see how
you can challenge the following western sources.
Source: John Dewey: "The New Republic," Vol. 40, Nov. 12, 1928, pp. 268-9.
"Happy the minority [Jews] which has had no Christian nation to protect it.
And one recalls that the Jews took up their abode in 'fanatic' Turkey
when they were expelled from Europe, especially Spain, by Saintly Christians,
and they have lived here for centuries in at least as much tranquility and
liberty as their fellow Turkish subjects, all being exposed alike to the
rapacity of their common rulers. To one brought up, as most Americans have
been, in the Gladstonian and foreign-missionary tradition, the condition of
the Jews in Turkey is almost a mathematical demonstration that religious
differences have had an influence in the tragedy of Turkey only as they
were combined with aspirations for a political separation which every
nation in the world would have treated as treasonable. One readily
reaches the conclusion that the Jews in Turkey were fortunate..."
He also stated that:
"they [Armenians] traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian
invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and
fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least
a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."
: >I want the documents of Jews in Latvia.  I think several other
: >people on soc.culture.greek are already disputing with you about the Turkish
: >Genocide.
:
: Is this the joke of the month? Who, when, how, where? What a clown...
>No, sweetie, the joke of the month is that you have now posted the same
>block of text four times, but you still have not produced the documents on
>Jews in Latvia.  Instead, you post the same text you post in every other
>message, that same old McCarthy table: (how appropriate it's named "McCarthy!")
How about Prof Shaw, a Jewish scholar?
Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.
"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city
of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population,
closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan
on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized
and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during
the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
southern side of the lake."
"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
soldiers began deserting in droves."
"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."
Source: Stanford J. Shaw, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey,"
Vol II. Cambridge University Press, London, 1979, pp. 314-317.
"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the
president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:
'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the
glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]
Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."
[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.
"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"
[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1,
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.
"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it
appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new
Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"
[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.
[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915;
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.
:     Muslim population exterminated by the Armenians:
>(31 lines deleted)
Why?
: Who gives a thunder about your pseudo-scholar jokes? I'am arguing about
: the Armenian-Nazi colaboration during World War II. Any comment?
>Argue it with someone else or do not reply to my posts, Argic my love.  I
>am not arguing about the Armenian-Nazi collaboration.  I do not give a
>thunder about it.  I want you to do one of three things:
>a) admit that you are not a regular user, but a computer autoposting Turkish
>propaganda, or,
>b) post the documents on Jews in Latvia, or,
>c) run away, like the coward without a real address that you are, and do not
>reply to my posts.
It could be, perhaps, your head wasn't screwed on just right. In 1941,
while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi concentration
camps, the Armenian volunteers in Germany formed the first Armenian
battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion had
grown into eight battalions of 20,000-strong under the command of the
former guerilla leader Dro (the butcher), who was the former dictator of the
short-lived Armenian Dictatorship (1918-1920) and the architect of the
cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds between 1914-1920.
An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious Dashnak Party
leaders in Berlin, which was recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged by
this, the Armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed
and espoused fully the principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the
members of the Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of
extermination of the Jews.
This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Turks by colluding with the invading Russian army.
Furthermore, as McCarthy put it, the Armenian dictatorship was granted
a respite when the Ottomans admitted defeat and signed the Mudros
Armistice with the Allies (October 30, 1918). The Allies had decided
to create a Greater Armenia, including the old Russian province
of Yerevan and adjoining areas, as well as most parts of Anatolia
claimed by the Armenian fanatics. Only the area called Cilicia
(around the Ottoman province of Adana) was to be excluded, as it
had already been claimed by the French. The Allies quickly set
about attempting to disarm Ottoman soldiers and other Turks, who
could be expected to oppose their plans.
On April 19, 1919 the British Army occupied Kars, gave civilian
and military power over to the Armenians, then withdrew. The British
planned for Kars to be included in the Armenian Dictatorship, even
though the Russian pre-war census had shown Kars Province to be over
60% Muslim. The Turks of Kars were effectively disarmed, but the
British could not disarm the Kurds of the mountains. The fate of
the Turks was almost an exact replica of what had occurred earlier
in Eastern Anatolia. Murder, pillage, genocide and the destruction
of Turkish homes and entire Turkish villages drove the Turks of
Kars to the mountains or south and west to the safety afforded
by remaining units of the Ottoman Army. The British had left
the scene to the Armenian genocide squads. Therefore, few
Europeans were present to observe the genocide. One British
soldier, Colonel Rawlinson, who was assigned to supervise the
disarmament of Otoman soldiers, saw what was occurring.
Rawlinson wired to his superiors,
"in the interest of humanity the Armenians should not be left in
independent command of the Moslim population, as, their troops
being without discipline and not being under effective control,
atrocities were constantly being committed."
>Instead, you post more Armenian nonsense:
Come again?
: "These European Dashnags, with headquarters in Berlin, appealed to...
>(34 lines deleted)
Why?
: No wonder you are in such a mess. Here are the Armenian sources on the
: Turkish Holocaust.
>(30+ lines deleted)
Why?
>(list of dead Armenians, 100+ lines, deleted):
Obrother. Spell it out, "list of dead Muslims":
Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
"Document No: 64," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 109, Drawer
No: 4, File No: 359, Section No: 103(1435), Contents No: 3-20.
(To Acting Supreme Command - Socialist Salah Cimcoz, Socialist
Nesim Mazelyah)
"Armenian gangs have been murdering and inflicting cruelties on
innocent people of the region. This verified information, supported
by clear statements of reliable eyewitnesses, was also confirmed by
General Odishelidje, Commander of the Russian Caucasian Army.
Armenians are entering every place evacuated by Russians carrying out
murders, cruelties, rape and all kind of atrocities which cannot be
expressed in writing, murdering all the women, children, aged people
who happen to be in the street. These barbarous murders repeated
every day with new methods continue and the Russian Army has been urged
to intervene to terminate these atrocities. Public opinion is appalled
and horrified. Newspapers are describing the happenings as shocking.
We have decided to inform all our friends urgently about the situation."
"Document No: 65," Archive No: 4/3671, Cabin No: 163, Drawer
No: 5, File No: 2947, Section No: 628, Contents No: 3-1, 3-3.
(To Acting Supreme Command - Commander, 3rd Army General)
"The situation in the cities of Erzincan and Erzurum which we have
recently taken over is given below:
These two beautiful cities of our country which are alike in the
calamities and destruction which they suffered, have been destroyed,
as the specially designed and built public and private buildings of
these cities were deliberately burnt by Armenians apart from the
destruction suffered during the two-year Russian occupation.
All barracks buildings of Erzincan, the cavalry barracks in Erzurum,
the Government building and Army Corps Headquarters are among those
burnt. In short, both cities are burnt, destroyed and trees cut down.
As to the people of these cities:
All people old enough to use weapons rounded up, taken to the Sarikamis
direction for road building and were slaughtered. The remaining people,
were subject to cruelties and murder by Armenians following the
withdrawal of Russians and were partly annihilated the corpses thrown
into wells, burnt in houses, mutilated by bayonets, their abdomens
ripped open in slaughterhouses, their lungs and livers torn out, girls
and women hung up by their hair, after all kinds of devilish acts.
The few people who were able to survive these cruelties, worse than
those of the 'Spanish Inquisition,' are in poverty more dead than alive,
horrified, some driven insane, about 1500 in Erzincan and 30,000 in
Erzurum. The people are hungry and in poverty, for whatever they had
has been taken away from them, their lands left uncultivated.
The people have just been able to exist with some provisions found in
stores left over from the Russians. The villages round Erzincan and
Erzurum are in the worst condition. Some villages on the road, have
been leveled to the ground, leaving no stone, the people completely
massacred.
Let me submit to your information with deep grief and regret that
history has never before witnessed cruelties at such dimensions."
:  (a long list)
:  (a long list)"
And still anxiously awaiting...
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Day and night Armenians were rounding up male inhabitants...
Article-I.D.: zuma.9304052020
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 71
In article <734048492@locust.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Eduard Wiener) writes:
>	  Sure it joined you by ballot in 1918!  And I suppose that
>	  Northern Bukovina (where I was born), which has always had
That's why zoologists refer to you as a 'fecal shield'. Colonel Semen
M. Budienny, a subsequent Soviet military fame, said about the
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million defenseless Turkish and Kurdish
women, children and elderly people during his visit to Anatolia
in June 1919 that
"the Armenians had become troublemakers, their Hinchakist
and Dashnakist parties were opportunist, serving as lackeys
of whatever power happened to be ascendent."
In September 16, 1920, Major General W. Thwaites, Director of
Military Intelligence, wrote to Lord Hardinge, Under-Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs:
"...it is useless to pretend that the Armenians are satisfactory
allies, or deserving of all the sympathy to which they claim."[1]
[1] F.O. 331/3411/158288.
In the Special Collection at Stanford Hoover Library, donated by
Georgia Cutler, the letter dated Nov. 1, 1943 states that
"Prescot Hall wrote a large volume to prove that Armenians were
not and never could be desirable citizens, that they would
always be unscrupulous merchants."
Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
"Document No: 50," Archive No: 4/3621, Cabin No: 162, Drawer
No: 5, File No: 2905, Section No: 433, Contents No: 6, 6-1, 6-2.
(To 36th Division Command - Militia Commander Ismail Hakki)
"For eight days, Armenians have been forcibly obstructing people from
leaving their homes or going from one village to the other. Day and night
they are rounding up male inhabitants, taking them to unknown destinations,
after which nothing further is heard of them. (Informed from statements
of those who succeeded in escaping wounded from the massacres around
Taskilise ruins). Women and children are being openly murdered or are
being gathered in the Church Square and similar places. Most inhuman and
barbarous acts have been committed against Moslems for eight days."
"Document No: 52," Archive No: 4/3671, Cabin No: 163, Drawer
No: 1, File No: 2907, Section No: 440, Contents No: 6-6, 6-7.
(To: 1st Caucasian Army Corps Command, 2nd Caucasian Army Corps
Command, Communications Zone Inspectorate - Commander 3rd Army
General)
"As almost all Russian units opposite our front have been withdrawn, the
population loyal to us in regions behind the Russian positions are
facing an ever-increasing threat and suppression as well as cruelties
and abuses by Armenians who have decided to systematically annihilate
the Moslem population in regions under their occupation. I have
regularly informed the Russian Command of these atrocities and
cruelties and I have gained the impression that the above authority
seems to be failing in restoring order."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: Facts about WTC Bombing
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Lines: 27
backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
: In article <1pll52$sms@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
: >>     WHO is Josie Hadas?
:
:
: I see you didn't notice my recent posting.
:
: The FBI found that "Josie Hadas" was simply an alias taken by Salameh.
:
I have the sources for the information in the Chronology, including the
NY Daily News of March 5 that reports the arrest of Josie Hadas and a
copy of the foreign press reports of her release shortly afterwards.
What is the source for your alias story?
And pray tell me how can the FBI arrest and release an alias?
:
: >>     WHAT is the relationship between that person and the Israeli mussad?
:
: Zilch, zero, nothing. Like the IQ of the idiot who posted this absurdity in the
: first place.
What has IQ to do with collecting information and putting it forward. Why
has the FBI refused comment on the Guardian reporter's question about
Hadas' link with Israeli Intelligence (the information did not mention
the Mossad explicitly).
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 56
In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>
>>What are the borders the Islamic world dreams about ??
>
>The Islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking
>the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts.
>If Jews had the same dream, I would not feel threatened a bit.
There certainly are muslims who *do not* believe that their dream of
a global Islamic community should be achieved through force. There are,
however, others (and, they are often far more visible/vocal than the
former) who *do* accept the establishment of global Islam through force.
I  would *not* feel threatened by those only accepting or pursuing
"Islamicization" through peaceful means, nor by Jews advocating the same
approach. Those advocating force as a means of expanding their side's
power are certainly a threat.
To Palestinians, Israel is doing just that; maintaining its dominance
of those *outside* its own "group". If I am told that "I am not one of
you" but you then impose your control on me, damn right you are a threat.
If I am a member of a non-muslim minority *inside* the Islamic
world and *actively did not* accept my "minority" status, I *would also
certainly* see Islam's domination as having been acheived, and maintained,
through the powerful coercive force all majorities wield over minorities
within their ranks.
>>
>>Islamic readers, I am waiting to your honest answer.
>
>I want also a honest answer from Zionists for the following questions:
I am not a zionist, but do feel that *both* Jewish and Palestinian
nationalist desires need, at this juncture, to be accepted in some way.
>
>1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
>of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
>than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
>						***
For the same reason that some muslims believe it is proper and righteous
for Islam to be spread by force upon those who DO NOT WANT THAT.
>2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
>the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?
[I refer to the "most" you also refer to]
Because they are scared, and feel very threatened, as well feeling that
this area *is* to some degree part of their belief/religion/heritage/
identity/etc.
I too strongly object to those that justify Israeli "rule"
of those who DO NOT WANT THAT. The "occupied territories" are not
Israel's to control, to keep, or to dominate.
>
Tim
From: spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders
Nntp-Posting-Host: next03wor.wam.umd.edu
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Lines: 37
In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA
(Ilyess Bdira) writes:
> > 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
> of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
> than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
G-d has nothing to do with it. Some of the land was in fact given to the
Jews by the United Nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from Arab
absentee landlords. Present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase
from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the United Nations in the
partition of the Palestine mandate territory, and as the result of
defensive wars fought against the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, et al.
***
> 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
> the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?
First, I should point out that many Jews do not in fact agree with the
idea that the West Bank is theirs. Since,  however, I agree with those who
claim the West Bank, I think I can answer your question thusly: the West
bank was what is called the spoils of war. Hussein ordered the Arab Legion
to attack Israel, which was a poor move, seeing as how the Israelis
promptly kicked his butt. The territory is therefore forefeit.  Retaining
possession of ALL of the West bank is  not desirable, but it beats
national suicide for the Israelis. Put another way, one could ask why it
is that so many Palestinians seem to think that Tel-Aviv belongs to them
and the future state of Palestine. As long as this state of affairs
continues, it seems that to give the Palestinians a place from which they
can launch attacks on Jews is a real poor idea. Giving up the entire West
Bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint.  In addition, there is
the small matter of Jerusalem, which is considered to be part of the West
Bank. The chances of the Israelis giving up Jerusalem are nil. Even
leftists who think Yasser is a really cool dude, like Yossi Sarid, aren't
going to propose giving up Jerusalem. If he did, he'd get run out of town
on a rail.
chag sameach!
jeff
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: WTC bombing
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Lines: 13
tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
:
: "But Hadas might be a fictitious character invented by the two men for
: billing purposes, said Mohammed Mehdi, head of the Arab-American Relations Committee."
:
: Tim
I would remind readers of the fact that the NY Daily News on March 5th
reported the arrest of Joise Hadas. Foreign newspapers reported her
release shortly afterwards. I can provide copies of the articles
upon request.
Alaa Zeineldine
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian genocide of the Muslim people in 1914 and 1993.
Article-I.D.: zuma.9304052051
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 52
In article <C51A38.MCJ@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
> Alah, alah, kleriklemek mutuglu diyeni de la malakismenos kolo-Tourkos ...
> Likkleserfelc ekmek salam.  Toukoutakli, ranadas sarma.
> Geke re? Ti, eipate yok? Plaka numarani alalim kanw re...
Source: A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla
Ermeni Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.
pp. 267-268.
"Van'dan sonra ilk isyan Sebinkarahisar'da basladi. 1915 senesi 5
haziran da, Sivasli Murat [Hamparsum Boyaciyan - sa] denilen bir
caninin emri altinda 500 kadar cete Sebinkarahisari basti. Burasi o
zaman en onemli askeri bir yerdi. Erzurum bolgesinde Rus ordusu ile
savasan Osmanli Ordularinin butun ikmal araclari buradan gecmekte idi.
Ermeniler boyle onemli bir yer isgal ettikleri takdirde Turk
ordularinin ikmali yapilamayacak ve Rus Ordularinin harekati
kolaylasacakti. Sebinkarahisarin islam mahalleleri tamamen atese
verildi. Her rastlanan Turk iskence ile olduruldu.
Mus'da ayni sekilde isyan devam ediyordu. Sason daglari Ermeni
eskiyalariyla dolu idi. Bu isyanlari, ordunun arkasini vurmak ve Rus
Ordusunun ilerlemesini saglamak icin Ermenilerin pasa dedikleri Rupen
idare ediyordu. Bundan baska, Rus Ordularinin Rus - Turk sinirindan
gecerek Turk topraklarina girdikleri bu safhada Rus Ordusu icinde
bulunan Ermeni gonullu alaylariyla Rus Ordularinin isgali altina giren
Ermeni koylerindeki silahli halk, Turk koylerine hucum ederek bu
koyleri yakip yikmislar ve Turk halkini hatira gelmeyen mezalim ve
iskence ile oldurmulerdir.
p. 285.
"Bu suretle sehirde 23 gun cok kanli olaylar cereyan etti, bu sure
sonunda Van, Ermeniler tarafindan tamamen isgal olundu. Buradan
kacabilen Turklerin, Ermenilerin davranislari hakkinda verdikleri
haberler tuyler urpertici idi. Cunku isyancilar halkin cogunu oldurmus,
kadinlarin irzina gecmis, Turk kadin ve kizlarini bazi evlerde
topladiktan sonra buralarini Genelev haline getirmislerdir. O zaman
Van'da 1500 kadar kadin ve cocuktan baska Turk kalmamis, bunlari da
oradaki Amerikalilar korumustur. Sehir bastan basa harab olmus, carsi
kamilen yanmisti."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: iacovou@thufir.cs.umn.edu (Neophytos Iacovou)
Subject: Re: If You Feed Armenians Dirt -- You Will Bite Dust!
Nntp-Posting-Host: thufir.cs.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota
Lines: 34
In <1993Apr5.194120.7010@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>David Davidian says: Turkish officials came to Armenia last September and
>Armenia given assurances the Armenian nuclear plant would stay shut. Turkey
>promised Armenia electricity, and in the middle of December 1992, Turkey said
>sorry we were only joking. Armenia froze this past winter -- 30,000 Armenians
>lost their lives. Turkey claims it allowed "humanitarian" aid to enter Armenia
>through its border with Turkey. What did Turkey do, it replaced the high
>quality grain from Europe with "crap" from Turkey, mixed in dirt, and let that
>garbage through to Armenia -- 30,000 Armenians lost their lives!
This is the latest from UPI
Foreign Ministry spokesman Ferhat Ataman told journalists Turkey was
closing its air space to all flights to and from Armenia and would
prevent humanitarian aid from reaching the republic overland across
Turkish territory.
Historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited
signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian
populations. Even the Nazis did this much.
It seems as though from now on Turkey will publicly pronounce
themselves 'hypocrites' should they choose to continue their
condemnation of the Serbians.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neophytos Iacovou
University of Minnesota                     email:  iacovou@cs.umn.edu
Computer Science Department                         ...!rutgers!umn-cs!iacovou
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March
Organization: Dept. Of Control, Teknikum, Uppsala
Lines: 184
<FLAX.93Apr4151411@frej.teknikum.uu.se>
<1993Apr5.125419.8157@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se
In-reply-to: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU's message of Mon, 5 Apr 93 12:54:19 GMT
In article <1993Apr5.125419.8157@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:
[After a small refresh Hasan got on the track again.]
In article <FLAX.93Apr4151411@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr3.182738.17587@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|>    In article <FLAX.93Apr3142133@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|>    |> I get the impression Hasan realized he goofed and is now
|>    |> trying to drop the thread. Let him. It might save some
|>    |> miniscule portion of his sorry face.
|>    Not really. since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself
|>    from any "name calling", i started trashing any article that contains
|>    such abuses without responding to, and sometimes not even reading articles
|>    written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company!
|>
|> Ah, but in my followup on the subject (which you, by the way, never bothered
|> responding to..) there was no name-calling. Hence the assumption.
|> Do you feel more up to it now, so that we might have an answer?
|> Or, to refresh your memory, does the human right issue in the area
|> apply to Palestinians only? Also, do you claim there is such a thing as
|> forfeiting a human right? If that's possible, then explain to the rest of
|> us how there can exist any such thing?
|>
|> Use your logic, and convince us! This is your golden chance!
|> Jonas Flygare,
well , ok. let's see what Master of Wisdom, Mr. Jonas Flygare,
wrote that can be wisdomely responded to :
Are you calling names, or giving me a title? If the first, read your
paragraph above, if not I accept the title, in order to let you get into the
um, well, debate again.
Master of Wisdom writes in <1993Mar31.101957@frej.teknikum.uu.se>:
|> [hasan]
|> |> [flax]
|> |> |> [hasan]
|> |> |>    In case you didNOT know, Palestineans were there for 18 months.
|> |> |>    and they are coming back
|> |> |>    when you agree to give Palestineans their HUMAN-RIGHTS.
|> |> |>    Afterall, human rights areNOT negotiable.
|> |> |> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the right to one's life _also_
|> |> |> a 'human right'?? Or does it only apply to palestinians?
|> |> No. it is EVERYBODY's right. However, when a killer kills, then he is giving
|> |> up -willingly or unwillingly - his life's right to the society.
|> |> the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by
|> |> depriving the killer off his life's right.
|> So then it's all right for Israel to kill the people who kill Israelis?
|> The old 'eye for an eye' thinking? Funny, I thought modern legal systems
|> were made to counter exactly that.
So what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, Master of Wsidom,
^^^
------------------------------------------------------------------
If you insist on giving me names/titles I did not ask for you could at
least spell them correctly. /sigh.
when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that
the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE,
and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on
the ground of occupied territories.
No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals right
to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the
question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have
not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.
What do you expect me to tell you, Master of Wisdom, when I did explain my
point in the post, that you "responded to". The point is that since Israel
is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights
to the Occupied Palestineans, which is exactly similar the automatic
deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society.
If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then
tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?
|> |> In conjugtion with the above, when a group of people occupies others
|> |> territories and rule them by force, then this group would be -willingly or
|> |> unwillingly- deprived from some of its rights.
|> Such as the right to live? That's nice. The swedish government is a group
|> of people that rule me by force. Does that give me the right to kill
|> them?
Do you consider yourself that you have posed a worthy question here ?
Worthy or not, I was just applying your logic to a related problem.
Am I to assume you admit it wouldn't hold?
|> |> What kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue?
|> |> The answer is to be found in a certain system such as International law,
|> |> US law, Israeli law ,...
|> And now it's very convenient to start using the legal system to prove a
|> point.. Excuse me while I throw up.
ok, Master of Wisdom is throwing up.
You people stay away from the screen while he is doing it !
Oh did you too watch that comedy where they pipe water through the telephone?
I'll let you in on a secret... It's not for real.. Take my word for it.
|> |> It seems that the US law -represented by US State dept in this case-
|> |> is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories.
|> |> Anyway, as for Hamas, then obviously they turned to the islamic system.
|> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
any system can solve it.
The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine).
I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for
all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that
mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your
reply.
Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization)
said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
^^^                  ^^^
of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be
left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to
getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to
a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
make any lasting peace in the region. Ever. It's those who are willing to
make a tabula rasa and start over, and willing to give in order to get
something back.
"We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which).
Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the
imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
I think that is fair enough .
No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve
the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.
Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land.
"The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
-Rabbi Shoham.
Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+
From: spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS. ( was :Israel: misisipi to ganges)
Nntp-Posting-Host: next03wor.wam.umd.edu
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Lines: 20
In article <1993Apr5.183555.20163@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>
hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:
>
> In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET>, ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
writes:
> |>
> |> Hassan and some other seemed not to be a ware that Jews celebrating
on
> |> these days Thje Passover holliday the holidy of going a way from the
> |> Nile.
> |> So if one let his imagination freely work it seemed beter to write
> |> that the Zionist drean is "from the misisipi to the Nile ".
>
> the question is by going East or West from the misisipi. on either
choice
> you would loose Palestine or Broklyn, N.Y.
>
> I thought you're gonna say fromn misisipi back to the misisipi !
>
Nonononnononono....its "From the Nile to the Nile.....the Long way!" ;-)
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Lines: 38
Ilyess Bdira writes:
>>The Islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking
>the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts.
>If Jews had the same dream, I would not feel threatened a bit.
So I should be very comfortable that 500,000,000 people want to convert me to
Islam. Or, to convert me to ANYTHING.
There are many types of violence, physical murder is only one.
'Trying' to convert is an insult. It's like trying to tell me that me and/or
my God/my lack of God are just crap, that I need a new, 'converted' one.
This does not apply for muslims only, of course. Same for jews and for some
friendly, nicely dressed neighbours who show on sunday with empty speaches
and cheap booklets about some church ....
And when the objective is (I think, however that you are wrong) to convert
everybody, it's just a matter of time when violence will occur.
Aren't we able to learn anything from thouthands of years of 'conversion related
violence' ?
Why not let 'the other, more inferiour' people live as they wish and take care
your business?. You do assume that they are inferiour (or their beliefs are)
as long as you want to change their thinking.
Dorin
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Armenian killings in Kelbadjar ( Azerbadjan ) continues.....
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 28
In article <1993Apr5.064028.24746@kth.se> hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren) writes:
>Armenian killings in Kelbadjar ( Azerbadjan ) continues, Armenian
>attackers continues it's attack against Kelbadjar, Azerbadjan.
>45,000 people have been evacuated from Kelbadjar, 15,000 are still in
>town.
The fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government also hired mercenaries
to slaughter Azeris this time.
>The Armenian government says that the forces aren't from Armenia
>but from Nagorno-Karabag. Heavy weapons and ordertaking
>from France is the result.....Turkey's President, Turgut Ozal,says:
>"If UN doesn't act then we may have to show our teeth before the
> situation becomes worse.".
Finally...about time...
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: While Armenians destroyed all the Moslem villages in the plain...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 48
In article <1pol62INNa5u@cascade.cs.ubc.ca> kvdoel@cs.ubc.ca (Kees van den Doel) writes:
>>See, you are a pathological liar.
>You got a crack in your record I think.
This is the point we seem to disagree about. Not a chance.
>I keep seeing that line over and over.  That's pathetic, even for
>Serdar Argic!
Well, "Arromdian" of ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle
is a compulsive liar. Now try dealing with the rest of what I wrote.
U.S. Ambassador Bristol:
Source: "U.S. Library of Congress:" 'Bristol Papers' - General Correspondence
Container #34.
"While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to
govern or handle other races under their power."
A Kurdish scholar:
Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.
"When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster
of 1914, their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular
Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey. One of
these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a blood-thirsty adventurer.
These Armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses, more
than six hundred thousand Kurds being killed between 1915 and 1916 in
the eastern vilayets of Turkey."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU
Subject: Re: No land for peace - No negotiatians
Originator: hasan@haley.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: haley.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Lines: 45
In article <1993Apr5.175047.17368@unocal.com>, stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
|> Alan Stein writes:
|>
|> >What are you talking about?  The Rabin government has clearly
|> >indicated its interest in a territorial compromise that would leave
|> >the vast majority of the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza outside
|> >Israeli control.
(just an interrupting comment here) Since EARLY 1980's , israelis said they are
willing to give up the Adminstration rule of the occupied terretories to
Palestineans. Palestineans refused and will refuse such settlement that denies
them their right of SELF-DETERMINATION. period.
|> I know. I was just pointing out that not compromising may be a bad idea. And
|> there are, in Israel, voices against negotiations. And I think there are many
|> among palestineans also against any negociations.
|>
|> Just an opinion
|>
|> Dorin
Ok. I donot know why there are israeli voices against negotiations. However,
i would guess that is because they refuse giving back a land for those who
have the right for it.
As for the Arabian and Palestinean voices that are against the
current negotiations and the so-called peace process, they
are not against peace per se, but rather for their well-founded predictions
that Israel would NOT give an inch of the West bank (and most probably the same
for Golan Heights) back to the Arabs. An 18 months of "negotiations" in Madrid,
and Washington proved these predictions. Now many will jump on me saying why
are you blaming israelis for no-result negotiations.
I would say why would the Arabs stall the negotiations, what do they have to
loose ?
Arabs feel that the current "negotiations" is ONLY for legitimizing the current
status-quo and for opening the doors of the Arab markets for israeli trade and
"oranges". That is simply unacceptable and would be revoked.
Just an opinion.
Hasan
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: The systematic genocide of the Muslim population by the Armenians.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 226
In article <1993Apr5.091410.4108@massey.ac.nz> CBlack@massey.ac.nz (C.K. Black) writes:
>Mr. Furr does it again,
Very sensible.
>  He says
>>>How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?
>And lo and behold, he invokes the Mr.666 of the net himself,  our beloved
>Serdar,  a program designed to seek out the words TERRX and GHEX in the
>same sentence and gets the automated reply....
Must you rave so? Fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government engaged in
disgusting cowardly massacres of Azeri women and children. I am
really sorry if that fact bothers you.
>>Our "Mutlu"? Oboy, this is exciting. First you discuss your literature
>>tastes, then your fantasies, and now your choices of entertainment. Have
>>you considered just turning on the TV and leaving those of us who aren't
>>brain dead to continue to discuss the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim
>>people by the x-Soviet Armenian Government?
>etc. etc. etc........
More ridicule, I take it? Still not addressing the original points made.
>Joel,  don't do this to me mate!  I'm only a poor plant scientist, I don't
>know how to make 'kill' files.  My 'k' key works overtime as it is just to
Then what seems to be the problem? Did you ever read newspaper at all?
"PAINFUL SEARCH .."
THE GRUESOME extent of February's killings of Azeris by Armenians
in the town  of Hojali is at last emerging  in Azerbaijan - about
600 men,  women and  children dead  in the  worst outrage  of the
four-year war over Nagorny Karabakh.
The figure  is drawn  from Azeri investigators,  Hojali officials
and casualty lists published in the Baku press. Diplomats and aid
workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates.
The 25  February attack on Hojali  by Armenian forces was  one of
the last moves  in their four-year campaign to  take full control
of Nagorny Karabakh,  the subject of a new  round of negotiations
in Rome on Monday. The bloodshed was something between a fighting
retreat and  a massacre, but  investigators say that most  of the
dead were civilians. The awful  number of people killed was first
suppressed by  the fearful  former Communist government  in Baku.
Later  it  was blurred  by  Armenian  denials and  grief-stricken
Azerbaijan's wild  and contradictory  allegations of up  to 2,000
dead.
The State Prosecuter, Aydin Rasulov,  the cheif investigator of a
15-man  team  looking  into  what Azerbaijan  calls  the  "Hojali
Disaster", said  his figure of 600  people dead was a  minimum on
preliminary  findings.  A similar  estimate  was  given by  Elman
Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali. An  even higher one was printed in
the Baku newspaper  Ordu in May - 479 dead  people named and more
than 200 bodies reported unidentified.  This figure of nearly 700
dead is quoted as official by Leila Yunusova, the new spokeswoman
of the Azeri Ministry of Defence.
FranCois Zen  Ruffinen, head  of delegation of  the International
Red Cross  in Baku, said  the Muslim imam  of the nearby  city of
Agdam had reported a figure of  580 bodies received at his mosque
from  Hojali, most  of  them  civilians. "We  did  not count  the
bodies. But  the figure seems  reasonable. It is no  fantasy," Mr
Zen Ruffinen said. "We have some idea since we gave the body bags
and products to wash the dead."
Mr  Rasulov endeavours  to give  an unemotional  estimate of  the
number of  dead in the  massacre. "Don't  get worked up.  It will
take  several months  to  get a  final  figure," the  43-year-old
lawyer said at his small office.
Mr Rasulov  knows about these  things. It  took him two  years to
reach  a firm  conclusion that  131  people were  killed and  714
wounded  when  Soviet  troops  and tanks  crushed  a  nationalist
uprising in Baku in January 1990.
Those  nationalists, the  Popular  Front, finally  came to  power
three weeks  ago and  are applying pressure  to find  out exactly
what  happened when  Hojali, an  Azeri town  which lies  about 70
miles from the border with Armenia, fell to the Armenians.
Officially, 184 people have so  far been certified as dead, being
the  number of  people that  could be  medically examined  by the
republic's forensic department. "This  is just a small percentage
of the dead," said Rafiq Youssifov, the republic's chief forensic
scientist. "They were the only bodies brought to us. Remember the
chaos and the fact that we are  Muslims and have to wash and bury
our dead within 24 hours."
Of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14
years old.  Gunshots killed  151 people,  shrapnel killed  20 and
axes or  blunt instruments  killed 10.  Exposure in  the highland
snows killed the last three.  Thirty-three people showed signs of
deliberate mutilation, including ears,  noses, breasts or penises
cut off and  eyes gouged out, according  to Professor Youssifov's
report. Those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those
believed to have been killed, Mr Rasulov said.
Files  from  Mr  Rasulov's  investigative  commission  are  still
disorganised -  lists of 44  Azeri militiamen are dead  here, six
policemen there,  and in handwriting  of a mosque  attendant, the
names of  111 corpses brought to  be washed in just  one day. The
most heartbreaking account from  850 witnesses interviewed so far
comes  from Towfiq  Manafov,  an Azeri  investigator  who took  a
helicopter  flight  over  the  escape route  from  Hojali  on  27
February.
"There were too many bodies of  dead and wounded on the ground to
count properly: 470-500  in Hojali, 650-700 people  by the stream
and the road and 85-100  visible around Nakhchivanik village," Mr
Manafov  wrote in  a  statement countersigned  by the  helicopter
pilot.
"People waved up  to us for help. We saw  three dead children and
one  two-year-old alive  by  one  dead woman.  The  live one  was
pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. We tried to land but
Armenians started a barrage against  our helicopter and we had to
return."
There  has been  no consolidation  of  the lists  and figures  in
circulation because  of the political  upheavals of the  last few
months and the  fact that nobody knows exactly who  was in Hojali
at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages
taken over by Armenian forces.
THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92
HEROES WHO FOUGHT ON AMID THE BODIES
AREF  SADIKOV sat  quietly  in the  shade of  a  cafe-bar on  the
Caspian Sea  esplanade of Baku and  showed a line of  stitches in
his trousers, torn  by an Armenian bullet as he  fled the town of
Hojali just over three months ago, writes Hugh Pope.
"I'm still  wearing the same  clothes, I don't have  any others,"
the  51-year-old carpenter  said,  beginning his  account of  the
Hojali disaster. "I was wounded in five places, but I am lucky to
be alive."
Mr Sadikov and  his wife were short of  food, without electricity
for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12
days. They  sensed the  Armenian noose was tightening  around the
2,000 to  3,000 people left in  the straggling Azeri town  on the
edge of Karabakh.
"At about 11pm  a bombardment started such as we  had never heard
before,  eight  or  nine   kinds  of  weapons,  artillery,  heavy
machine-guns, the lot," Mr Sadikov said.
Soon neighbours were  pouring down the street  from the direction
of  the  attack. Some  huddled  in  shelters but  others  started
fleeing the town,  down a hill, through a stream  and through the
snow into a forest on the other side.
To escape, the  townspeople had to reach the Azeri  town of Agdam
about 15  miles away. They  thought they  were going to  make it,
until at  about dawn  they reached a  bottleneck between  the two
Armenian villages of Nakhchivanik and Saderak.
"None of my group was hurt up to then ... Then we were spotted by
a  car on  the road,  and the  Armenian outposts  started opening
fire," Mr Sadikov said.
Azeri militiamen fighting their way  out of Hojali rushed forward
to force  open a  corridor for the  civilians, but  their efforts
were mostly  in vain.  Mr Sadikov  said only  10 people  from his
group of  80 made it  through, including his wife  and militiaman
son.  Seven  of  his  immediate  relations  died,  including  his
67-year-old elder brother.
"I only had time to reach down  and cover his face with his hat,"
he said, pulling his own big  flat Turkish cap over his eyes. "We
have never got any of the bodies back."
The first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire.
One hero  of the  evacuation, Alif  Hajief, was  shot dead  as he
struggled to change  a magazine while covering  the third group's
crossing, Mr Sadikov said.
Another hero,  Elman Memmedov, the  mayor of Hojali, said  he and
several others  spent the whole day  of 26 February in  the bushy
hillside, surrounded by  dead bodies as they tried  to keep three
Armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay.
As the  survivors staggered the  last mile into Agdam,  there was
little comfort  in a town from  which most of the  population was
soon to flee.
"The night  after we reached  the town  there was a  big Armenian
rocket attack. Some people just  kept going," Mr Sadikov said. "I
had to  get to the  hospital for treatment. I  was in a  bad way.
They even found a bullet in my sock."
Victims of  war: An  Azeri woman  mourns her  son, killed  in the
Hojali massacre in February  (left). Nurses struggle in primitive
conditions  (centre)  to  save  a  wounded  man  in  a  makeshift
operating  theatre set  up  in a  train carriage.  Grief-stricken
relatives in  the town of Agdam  (right) weep over the  coffin of
another of the massacre victims. Calculating the final death toll
has been  complicated because Muslims  bury their dead  within 24
hours.
Photographs: Liu Heung / AP
Frederique Lengaigne / Reuter
THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: The systematic genocide of the Muslim population by the Armenians.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 99
In article <1993Apr5.211146.3662@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
>(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
>but in fact is an Armenian
1/64th or 63/64th?
I must congratulate your analytical and excellent
reportage about  Diana. From  the writings  of tye
biographers  you  quoted,  I can  perceive,  maybe
chauvinistically,  the  remnants of  her  Armenian
genes. Even  though she  is only  1/64th Armenian,
she   seems   to   have   many   of   the   strong
characteristics  of Armenian  women. Her  Armenian
ancestry is  traced to Eliza Kewark  (an Armenian
from  India), who  married  the Scottish  merchant
Thedore Forbes.  From the union was  born Kathleen
Scott  Forbes,  who  married  James  Crombie  from
Aberdeen. They  had a  daughter Jane,  who married
David  Littlejohn.  Their  daughter  Ruth  married
William Gill. Ruth Silvia Gill, the grandmother of
Lady  Diana,   married  Lord  Fermoy,   and  their
daughter, Frances  Ruth Burke Roache,  married the
eight Earl of Spencer, who  was the father of Lady
Diana. It is noteworthy  that Eliza Kewark was also
referred  to as  Mrs. Forbesian  (a characteristic
Armenian  surname  ending).  An  Armenian-Scottish
gene mix is dynamite.
Levon K. Topuzian
Assistant Professor
Northwestern University
Skoie, Illinois.
TIME, December 21, 1992 'Letters'
>who is attempting to make any discussion of the
>massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
>impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
>of confusion.
You have set up straw horses and knocked them down. I'm not impressed.
Anyway, the Armenians tore apart the Ottoman Empire's eastern provinces,
massacred 2.5 million defenseless Turkish women, children and elderly
people, burned thousands of Turkish and Kurdish villages and exterminated
the entire Turkish population of the Armenian dictatorship between
1914-1920. Such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today
in Armenia brings a depth and verification to the Turkish genocide
that is hard to match. A hundred years ago Armenians again thought
they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the
Russian anarchists that they accepted as role models. Several Armenian
terror groups like ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle
resorted to the same tactics in the 1980s, butchering scores of innocent
Turks and their families in the United States and Europe. It seems that
they are doing it again, at a different scale, in fascist x-Soviet Armenia
today.
Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.
"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city
of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population,
closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan
on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized
and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during
the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
southern side of the lake."
"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
soldiers began deserting in droves."
"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: While Armenians destroyed all the villages from Trabzon to Erzurum...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 55
In article <1993Apr4.231353.34562@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:
><disclaimer: If there is anybody on USENET dumb enough to interpret
>this posting as a serious and meaningful one, I want to assure this
>entity that it was but a joke>
Still yelling at the telephone and the lawn mower? People will think
you're just some looney howling in the wires. Now any comment?
Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
"Document No: 76," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 109, Drawer
No: 3, File No: 346, Section No: 427(1385), Contents No: 3, 52-53.
(To Lt. Colonel Seyfi, General Headquarters, Second Section,
Istanbul - Dr. Stephan Eshnanie)
'Neues Wiener Tagblatt' - Vienna, 'Pester Lloyd' 'Local Anzliger' - Berlin,
'Algemeen Handelsblat' - Amsterdam, 'Vakit' - Istanbul.
"I have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of Russians and
Armenians from Turkish territories through Armenia. Although two months
have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of Armenian gangs, I
have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the Armenians at
almost every step. All the villages from Trabzon to Erzincan and from
Erzincan to Erzurum are destroyed. Corpses of Turks brutally and cruelly
slain are everywhere. According to accounts by those who were able to
save their lives by escaping to mountains, the first horrible and fearful
events begun when the Russian forces evacuated the places which were then
taken over by Armenian gangs. The Russians usually treated the people
well, but the people feared the intervention of the Armenians. Once these
places had been taken over by the Armenians, however, the massacres begun.
They clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the
Armenian and Kurdish land from the Turks and thus, solve the nationality
problem. Today I had the opportunity to meet Austrian and German soldiers
who had escaped from Russian prison camps and come from Kars and
Alexander Paul (Gumru-Leninakan)...Russian officers tried to save the
Turks and there were clashes between Russian officers and Armenian gangs.
I am now in Erzurum, and what I see is terrible. Almost the whole city is
destroyed. The smell of the corpses still fills the air. Although there are
speculations that Armenian gangs murdered Austrian and German prisoners as
well, I could not get the supporting evidence in this regard, but there is
proof of murdering of Turkish prisoners of war."
Dr. Stephan Eshnanie
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Do Not Forget
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 36
In article <1993Apr05.120108.6578@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:
>                       REMEMBER AND DO NOT FORGET
>                              Sisha Fuchs
Never. I don't know whether anybody formulated and proposed such an
index or criteria to determine the magnitude of a genocide as mentioned
and advised by Toynbee. If one ever does you will easily see the magnitude
of the crime of genocide committed by the Armenians, by massacring an alien
population under their rule which constituted about 40% of their total
population and they did it only within a time period of a little over
two years in which they enjoyed having full control over this population.
Now I would like to ask you:
Is there any other genocide in the history of mankind similar to
this one?
And again I would like to ask you:
Whether the silent and unmourned martyrdom of these hundreds of thousands
of Turks of the Republic of Armenia who were exterminated as a "Final
Solution" to Turco-Tartar problems in Armenia is similar or not
to the martyrdom of six million Jews in Europe as a final solution to
Jewish problems?
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: No land for peace - No negotiatians
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Lines: 52
hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:
>Ok. I donot know why there are israeli voices against negotiations. However,
>i would guess that is because they refuse giving back a land for those who
>have the right for it.
Sounds like wishful guessing.
>As for the Arabian and Palestinean voices that are against the
>current negotiations and the so-called peace process, they
>are not against peace per se, but rather for their well-founded predictions
>that Israel would NOT give an inch of the West bank (and most probably the same
>for Golan Heights) back to the Arabs. An 18 months of "negotiations" in Madrid,
>and Washington proved these predictions. Now many will jump on me saying why
>are you blaming israelis for no-result negotiations.
>I would say why would the Arabs stall the negotiations, what do they have to
>loose ?
'So-called' ? What do you mean ? How would you see the peace process?
So you say palestineans do not negociate because of 'well-founded' predictions ?
How do you know that they are 'well founded' if you do not test them at the
table ? 18 months did not prove anything, but it's always the other side at
fault, right ?
Why ? I do not know why, but if, let's say, the Palestineans (some of them) want
ALL ISRAEL, and these are known not to be accepted terms by israelis.
Or, maybe they (palestinenans) are not yet ready for statehood ?
Or, maybe there is too much politics within the palestinean leadership, too many
fractions aso ?
I am not saying that one of these reasons is indeed the real one, but any of
these could make arabs stall the negotiations.
>Arabs feel that the current "negotiations" is ONLY for legitimizing the current
>status-quo and for opening the doors of the Arab markets for israeli trade and
>"oranges". That is simply unacceptable and would be revoked.
I like California oranges. And the feelings may get sharper at the table.
Regards,
Dorin
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March
Originator: hasan@haley.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: haley.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Lines: 189
In article <FLAX.93Apr5224449@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr5.125419.8157@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:
|>    In article <FLAX.93Apr4151411@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|>
|>    |> In article <1993Apr3.182738.17587@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|>
|>    |>    In article <FLAX.93Apr3142133@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|>
|>    |>    |> I get the impression Hasan realized he goofed and is now
|>    |>    |> trying to drop the thread. Let him. It might save some
|>    |>    |> miniscule portion of his sorry face.
|>
|>    |>    Not really. since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself
|>    |>    from any "name calling", i started trashing any article that contains
|>    |>    such abuses without responding to, and sometimes not even reading articles
|>    |>    written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company!
|>    [deleted stuff]
|>    well , ok. let's see what Master of Wisdom, Mr. Jonas Flygare,
|>    wrote that can be wisdomely responded to :
|>
|> Are you calling names, or giving me a title? If the first, read your
|> paragraph above, if not I accept the title, in order to let you get into the
|> um, well, debate again.
I didnot know that "Master of wisdom" can be "name clling" too,
unless you consider yourself deserve-less !
|>    Master of Wisdom writes in <1993Mar31.101957@frej.teknikum.uu.se>:
|>
|>    |> [hasan]
|>    |> |> [flax]
|>    |> |> |> [hasan]
|>
|>    |> |> |>    In case you didNOT know, Palestineans were there for 18 months.
|>    |> |> |>    and they are coming back
|>    |> |> |>    when you agree to give Palestineans their HUMAN-RIGHTS.
|>
|>    |> |> |>    Afterall, human rights areNOT negotiable.
|>
|>    |> |> |> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the right to one's life _also_
|>    |> |> |> a 'human right'?? Or does it only apply to palestinians?
|>
|>    |> |> No. it is EVERYBODY's right. However, when a killer kills, then he is giving
|>    |> |> up -willingly or unwillingly - his life's right to the society.
|>    |> |> the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by
|>    |> |> depriving the killer off his life's right.
|>
|>    |> So then it's all right for Israel to kill the people who kill Israelis?
|>    |> The old 'eye for an eye' thinking? Funny, I thought modern legal systems
|>    |> were made to counter exactly that.
|>
|>    So what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, Master of Wsidom,
|> 							       ^^^
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------
|> If you insist on giving me names/titles I did not ask for you could at
|> least spell them correctly. /sigh.
That was only to confuse you! (ha ha ha hey )
|>    when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that
|>    the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE,
|>    and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on
|>    the ground of occupied territories.
|>
|> No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
|> of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals right
^^^^^^^ are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here.
|> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the
|> question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have
|> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.
First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate.
Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to
protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing
Palestinean human rights.
|>    What do you expect me to tell you, Master of Wisdom, when I did explain my
|>    point in the post, that you "responded to". The point is that since Israel
|>    is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights
|>    to the Occupied Palestineans, which is exactly similar the automatic
|>    deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society.
|>
|> If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then
|> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?
Because not all states are like Israel, as oppressive, as ignorant, or as tyrant.
|>    |> |> What kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue?
|>    |> |> The answer is to be found in a certain system such as International law,
|>    |> |> US law, Israeli law ,...
|>    |>[deleted, Jonas was throwing up-not for real so you can stick to the screen]
|>    |> |> It seems that the US law -represented by US State dept in this case-
|>    |> |> is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories.
|>    |> |> Anyway, as for Hamas, then obviously they turned to the islamic system.
|>
|>    |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
|>
|>    The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
|>    any system can solve it.
|>    The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine).
|>
|> I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that
|> mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your
|> reply.
So you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights.
(i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph).
|>    Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization)
|>    said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
|> 	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
|> 	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
|> 						^^^                  ^^^
|> 	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
|> 	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
|> 	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
|> 	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
|> 	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be
|> 	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
|> 	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
|> 				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
|> 				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
|>
|> Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to
|> getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
|> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
|> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to
|> a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
|> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
|> their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
|> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff]
Exactly, you are right. I guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment
is full with  men like Joseph Weitz.
|>    "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which).
|>
|>    Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the
|>    imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
|>
|>    I think that is fair enough .
|>
|> No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve
|> the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.
Above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ):
any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would
resolve it JUSTLY.
|> Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land.
You are proving yourself as a " ". First you understood what i meant, but then
you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic. Too bad for you,
the Master of Wisdom.
|>    "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
|> 			   -Rabbi Shoham.
|>
|> Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
|> a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.
Why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in , if you were a
Zionists. If you believe in Zionist codes and acts, well i feel sorry for you,
because the same Rabbi Shoham had said "Yes, Zionism is racism".
If you feel ashamed and bothered by the Zionist codes, then drop Zionism.
If you are not Zionist, why are you bothered then. You should join me in
condemning these racist Zionist codes and acts.
Hasan
|> Jonas Flygare,
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian-Nazi Collaboration During World War II.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 51
In article <2BC0D53B.20378@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>Is it possible to track down "zuma" and determine who/what/where "seradr"
>is?
Done. But did it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920,
the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin? By the way, you still haven't corrected yourself.
During World War II Armenians were carried away with the German might and
cringing and fawning over the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication
in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements as follows:[1]
"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it
becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing."
Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.
"...We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
against our people (Jews)...Members of our family witnessed the
murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian
neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish
and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see
the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors...
Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise
to grant them self government if, in return, the Armenians would
help exterminate Jews...Armenians were also hearty proponents of
the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists. Mr. Amarian!
I don't need your bias."
Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.
[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: While Armenians are massacring innocent Azeri women and children...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 180
In article <iacovou.734063606@gurney> iacovou@gurney.cs.umn.edu (Neophytos Iacovou) writes:
>>>   Historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited
>>>   signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian
>>>   populations. Even the Nazis did this much.
>>is the world community really so powerless? Where are all those human
>>rights advocates? Where are all the decent people? Are we going to
>>let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it? The number
>>of Azeris murdered by the terrorist Armenian army and its savage
>>gangs is increasing.
>   News reporters make their living by providing stories, and there is
>   so way in hell that they are going to confuse the public with
>   what is happening in Armenia (a country that few know of), and
>   risk detracting people's interest from what is happening in Serbia.
Then you must be living in an alternate universe. Where were they?
An Appeal to Mankind
During the last three years Azerbaijan and its multinational
population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of
the Soviet Union. All humanitarian, constitutional human rights
guaranteed by the UN Charter, Universal Declaration of Human
Rights, Helsinki Agreements, Human Problems International Forums,
documents signed by the Soviet Union - all of them are violated.
The USSR's President, government bodies do not defend Azerbaijan
though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to
guarantee life and peace.
The 140,000 strong army of Armenian terrorists with Moscow's
tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against
Azerbaijan. As a result, a part of Azerbaijan has been occupied
and annexed, hundreds of people killed, thousands wounded.
Some 200,000 Azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly
deported from the Armenian SSR, their historical homeland.
Together with them 64,000 Russians and 22,000 Kurds have also
been driven out, a part of them now settled in Azerbaijan.
Some 40,000 Turkish-Meskhetians, Lezghins and representatives
of other Caucasian nationalities who escaped from the Central
Asia where the President and government bodies did not guarantee
them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations.
One of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against
Azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the
Armenian extremists' destruction of the Karabakh scientific
experimental base of The Institute of Genetics and Selection
of the Academy of Sciences of the Azerbaijan SSR.
We beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance,
for the honour and dignity of 7 million Azerbaijanis are
violated, its territory, culture  and history are trampled,
its people are shot. There is persistent negative image of
Azerbaijanians abroad, and this defamation is spread over
the whole world by Soviet mass media, Armenian lobby in the
USSR and the United States.
One of the myths is that all events allegedly involves and
generated by interethnic collisions and religious intolerance
while the truth is that all these shootings and recent
events stem from the territorial claims of Armenia on
Azerbaijan.
It is a well documented fact that before the conflict there
were no frictions between Armenians and Azerbaijanis on the
issue of Karabakh. Hundreds and thousands Armenians placidly
and calmly lived and worked in Azerbaijan land, had their
representatives in all government bodies of the Azerbaijan
SSR.
We are for a united, indivisible, sovereign Azerbaijan, we
are for a common Caucasian home proclaimed in 1918 by one
of the founding fathers of the Azerbaijan Democratic
Republic - Muhammed Emin Rasulzade.
But all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the
Soviet leadership in favour of the Armenian expansionists
encouraged by Moscow and intended to create a new '1,000
Year Reich' - the 'Great Armenia' - by annexing the
neighboring lands.
The world public opinion shed tears to save the whales,
suffers for penguins dying out in the Antarctic Continent.
But what about the lives of seven million human beings?
If these people are Muslims, does it mean that they are
less valuable? Can people be discriminated by their
colour of skin or religion, by their residence or other
attributes?
All people are brothers, and we appeal to our brothers
for help and understanding. This is not the first appeal
of Azerbaijan to the world public opinion. Our previous
appeals were unheard. However, we still carry the hope
that the truth beyond the Russian and Armenian propaganda
will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and
stimulate at least as much help and compassion for
Azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins.
THE COMMITTEE FOR PEOPLE'S HELP TO
KARABAKH (OF THE) ACADEMY OF SCIENCES
OF THE AZERBAIJAN SSR
>   Everyone knows this, even the Turks know this, you know this. Give
>   us a time period when the world is currently boring, and what is
>   happening in Armenia would make front page headlines. Think I'm lying?
>   Take a look at what happened in Somalia. When did the press report
>   it to the world?
But perhaps Turkiye should intervene in the affairs of the Caucasus
in the name of peace and democracy. The Armenians are Christians, the
Azerbaijanis are Moslems, and Islam is a religion especially unloved
by the democrat-westernizers. Besides, at the root of this conflict
lie the territorial claims on Azerbaijan, a consequence of which
were the blood and suffering of innocent Azeri people, hundreds of
thousands of refugees, and gross violations of human rights.
Recently Armenians attacked the Azeri town of Khojaly and massacred
thousands of Azeris. The Paris-based 'Association for Democracy and
Human Rights in Azerbaijan' puts the number of Khojali victims
at 3,145. Some of the dead were scalped and mutilated. This whole
thing has now gone entirely too far.
>   Want to know what will bring the story in Armenia to the front
>   page? If the Russians move into the area with a shit load of tanks
>   THEN your human rights advocates will show up defending the Armenians.
>   Of course we can also be sure that the Russians won't show up with
>   any tanks, not with the problems they are having at home.
They already did. The scenario and genocide staged by the Armenians
78 years ago in the Ottoman Empire is being reenacted again - this
time in Azerbaijan. There are remarkable similarities between the
plots, the perpetrators, and the underdogs.
Report taken from The New York Times, Tuesday, March 3, 1992
MASSACRE BY ARMENIANS BEING REPORTED
Agdam,Azerbaijan,March 2 (Reuters) - Fresh evidence emerged today
of a massacre of civilians by Armenian militants in Nagorno-Karabakh,
a predominantly Armenian enclave of Azerbaijan.
The republic of Armenia reiterated denials that its militants had killed
1,000 people in the Azerbaijani populated town of Khojaly last week and
massacred men, women and children fleeing the carnage across snow-covered
mountain passes.
But dozen of bodies scattered over the area lent credence to Azerbaijani
reports of a massacre.
Scalping Reported
Azerbaijani officials and journalists who flew briefly to the region
by helicopter brought back three dead children with the back of their
heads blown off. They said shooting by Armenians has prevented them
from retrieving more bodies.
"Women and children have been scalped," said Assad Faradshev, an aide
to Nagorno-Karabakh's Azerbaijani Governor. "When we began to pick up bodies,
they began firing at us."
The Azerbaijani militia chief in Agdam, Rashid Mamedov, said: "The bodies
are lying there like flocks of sheep. Even the fascists did nothing like this."
Truckloads of Bodies
Near Agdam on the outskirts of Nagorno-Karabakh, a Reuters photographer,
Frederique Lengaigne, said she had seen two trucks filled with Azerbaijani
bodies.
"In the first one I counted 35, and it looked as though there were as
many in the second," she said. "Some had their head cut off, and many had
been burned. They were all men, and a few had been wearing khaki uniforms.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders
Originator: hasan@haley.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: haley.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Lines: 51
In article <1993Apr5.202800.27705@wam.umd.edu>, spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing) writes:
|> In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA
|> (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
|> > > 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
|> > of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
|> > than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
|> G-d has nothing to do with it. Some of the land was in fact given to the
|> Jews by the United Nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from Arab
|> absentee landlords. Present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase
|> from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the United Nations in the
|> partition of the Palestine mandate territory, and as the result of
|> defensive wars fought against the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, et al.
|>
|> ***
|> > 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
|> > the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?
|> First, I should point out that many Jews do not in fact agree with the
|> idea that the West Bank is theirs. Since,  however, I agree with those who
|> claim the West Bank, I think I can answer your question thusly: the West
|> bank was what is called the spoils of war. Hussein ordered the Arab Legion
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is very funny.
Anyway, suppose that in fact israel didnot ATTACK jordan till jordan attacked
israel. Now, how do you explain the attack on Syria in 1967, Syria didnot
enter the war with israel till the 4th day .
By the way it is funny that you are implying that the reason behind 1967
by israel was only to capture Sinai, egypt !
|> to attack Israel, which was a poor move, seeing as how the Israelis
|> promptly kicked his butt. The territory is therefore forefeit.  Retaining
|> possession of ALL of the West bank is  not desirable, but it beats
|> national suicide for the Israelis. Put another way, one could ask why it
|> is that so many Palestinians seem to think that Tel-Aviv belongs to them
|> and the future state of Palestine. As long as this state of affairs
|> continues, it seems that to give the Palestinians a place from which they
|> can launch attacks on Jews is a real poor idea. Giving up the entire West
|> Bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint.  In addition, there is
|> the small matter of Jerusalem, which is considered to be part of the West
|> Bank. The chances of the Israelis giving up Jerusalem are nil. Even
|> leftists who think Yasser is a really cool dude, like Yossi Sarid, aren't
|> going to propose giving up Jerusalem. If he did, he'd get run out of town
|> on a rail.
|>
|>
|> 					chag sameach!
|> 						jeff
From: steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel)
Subject: Re: F*CK OFF TSIEL, logic of Mr. Emmanuel Huna
Keywords: Conspiracy, Nutcase
Organization: /etc/organization
Lines: 24
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.ai.mit.edu
In article <4806@bimacs.BITNET> huna@bimacs.BITNET (Emmanuel Huna) writes:
>
>        Mr. Steel, from what I've read Tsiel is not a racist, but you
>are an anti semitic.  And stop shouting, you fanatic,
Mr. Emmanuel Huna,
Give logic a break will you.  Gosh, what kind of intelligence do
you have, if any?
Tesiel says :  Be a man not an arab for once.
I say       :  Fuck of Tsiel (for saying the above).
I get tagged as a racist, and he gets praised?
Well Mr. logicless, Tsiel has apologized for his racist remark.
I praise him for that courage, but I tell Take a hike to whoever calls me
a racist without a proof because I am not.
You have proven to us that your brain has been malfunctioning
and you are just a moron that's loose on the net.
About being fanatic:  I am proud to be a fanatic about my rights and
freedom, you idiot.
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 15
tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>I too strongly object to those that justify Israeli "rule"
>of those who DO NOT WANT THAT. The "occupied territories" are not
>Israel's to control, to keep, or to dominate.
They certainly are until the Arabs make peace.  Only the most leftist/Arabist
lunatics call upon Israel to withdraw now.  Most moderates realize that an
Israeli withdrawl will be based on the Camp David/242/338/Madrid formulas
which make full peace a prerequisite to territorial concessions.
>Tim
Ed
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 46
hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
>In article <1993Apr5.202800.27705@wam.umd.edu>, spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing) writes:
>|> In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA
>|> (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>|> > > 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
>|> > of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
>|> > than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
>|> G-d has nothing to do with it. Some of the land was in fact given to the
>|> Jews by the United Nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from Arab
>|> absentee landlords. Present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase
>|> from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the United Nations in the
>|> partition of the Palestine mandate territory, and as the result of
>|> defensive wars fought against the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, et al.
>|>
>|> ***
>|> > 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
>|> > the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?
>|> First, I should point out that many Jews do not in fact agree with the
>|> idea that the West Bank is theirs. Since,  however, I agree with those who
>|> claim the West Bank, I think I can answer your question thusly: the West
>|> bank was what is called the spoils of war. Hussein ordered the Arab Legion
>			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>This is very funny.
>Anyway, suppose that in fact israel didnot ATTACK jordan till jordan attacked
>israel. Now, how do you explain the attack on Syria in 1967, Syria didnot
>enter the war with israel till the 4th day .
Syria had been bombing Israeli settlements from the Golan and sending
terrorist squads into Israel for years.  Do you need me to provide specifics?
I can.
Why don't you give it up, Hasan?  I'm really starting to get tired of your
empty lies.  You can defend your position and ideology with documented facts
and arguments rather than the crap you regularly post.  Take an example from
someone like Brendan McKay, with whom I don't agree, but who uses logic and
documentation to argue his position.  Why must you insist on constantly spouting
baseless lies?  You may piss some people off, but that's about it.  You won't
prove anything or add anything worthy to a discussion.  Your arguments just
prove what a poor debater you are and how weak your case really is.
All my love,
Ed.
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March
Organization: Dept. Of Control, Teknikum, Uppsala
Lines: 195
<FLAX.93Apr5224449@frej.teknikum.uu.se>
<1993Apr5.221759.28472@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se
In-reply-to: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 's message of Mon, 5 Apr 93 22:17:59 GMT
In article <1993Apr5.221759.28472@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
[ stuff deleted ]
|> I wrote:
|> Are you calling names, or giving me a title? If the first, read your
|> paragraph above, if not I accept the title, in order to let you get into the
|> um, well, debate again.
Hasan replies:
I didnot know that "Master of wisdom" can be "name clling" too,
unless you consider yourself deserve-less !
Unless you are referring to someone else, you have in fact given me a name
I did not ask for, hence the term 'name calling'.
Hasan writes:
|>    So what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, Master of Wsidom,
|> 							       ^^^
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------
I replied:
|> If you insist on giving me names/titles I did not ask for you could at
|> least spell them correctly. /sigh.
Hasan gloats:
That was only to confuse you! (ha ha ha hey )
Hell-bent on retarding into childhood, no?
|>when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that
|>the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE,
|>and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on
|>the ground of occupied territories.
|>
>No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
>of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals
>right
^^^^^^^ are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here.
No, I really do try to spell correctly, and I apologize if I did confuse you.
I will try not to repeat that.
|> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the
|> question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have
|> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.
First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate.
Ok, let me re-phrase the question. I have repeatedly asked you if the
Israelis have less human rights than the palestinians, and if so, why.
From your posting (where you did not directly adress my question) I inferred
that you thought so. Together with the above statement I then assumed that the
reason was the actions of the state of Israel. Re: your statement of
occupation: I'd like you to define the term, so I don't have to repeat this
'drag the answer out of hasan' procedure more than neccesary.
Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to
protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing
Palestinean human rights.
I'm sorry, but the above sentence does not make sense. Please rephrase it.
|> If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then
|> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?
Because not all states are like Israel, as oppressive, as ignorant, or as tyrant.
Oh, ok. So how about the human rights of the Syrians, Iraqis and others?
Does the name of Hama sound familiar? Or how about the kurds in Iraq and
Turkey?
How about the Same in Sweden (Ok, maybe a bit farfetched..) the Russians in
the Baltic states or the Moslem in the old USSR and Yugoslavia?
Do the serbs have any human rights remainaing, according to you?
|>    |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
|>
|>    The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
|>    any system can solve it.
|>    The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine).
|>
|> I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that
|> mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your
|> reply.
So you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights.
(i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph).
No, I'm agreeing that to just kick all the Palestinians out of Israel proper
would probably lead to disaster for both parties. If that's what you refer
to as the 'Israeli solution' then so be it.
|>    Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization)
|>    said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
|> 	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
|> 	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
|> 						^^^                  ^^^
|> 	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
|> 	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
|> 	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
|> 	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
|> 	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be
|> 	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
|> 	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
|> 				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
|> 				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
|>
|> Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to
|> getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
|> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
|> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to
|> a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
|> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
|> their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
|> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff]
>Exactly, you are right. I guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment>is full with  men like Joseph Weitz.
Oh? Have you met with them personally, to read their diaries? Fascinating.
What do you _do_ for a living?
|>    "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which).
|>
|>    Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the
|>    imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
|>
|>    I think that is fair enough .
|>
|> No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve
|> the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.
Above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ):
any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would
resolve it JUSTLY.
An unjust solution would be a non-solution, per definition, no?
You said the following:
For all A it holds that A have property B.
There exists an A such that property B does not hold.
Thus, either or both statements must be false.
|> Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land.
>You are proving yourself as a " ". First you understood what i meant, but then
>you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic.
>Too bad for you, the Master of Wisdom.
I was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning.
Since you claim to be logical I felt it best to point this out
before you started using your statements to prove a point or so.
Am I then to assume you are  not logical?
|>    "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
|> 			   -Rabbi Shoham.
|>
|> Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
|> a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.
>Why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in ,
>if you were a Zionists. If you believe in Zionist codes and acts,
>well i feel sorry for you, because the same Rabbi Shoham had said
>"Yes, Zionism is racism".
>If you feel ashamed and bothered by the Zionist codes, then drop Zionism.
>If you are not Zionist, why are you bothered then. You should join me in
>condemning these racist Zionist codes and acts.
Any quote can be misused, especially when used to stereotype all
individuals by a statement of an individual. If you use the same
methods that you credit 'Zionists' with, then where does that place you?
Oh, by the way, I'd advice you not to assume anything about my 'loyalties'.
I will and am condemning acts I find vile and inhuman, but I'll try as
long as I can not to assume those acts are by a whole people.
By zionist above do you mean the state of Israel, the government of Israel,
the leaders of Israel (political and/or religious) or the jews in
general? If you feel the need to condemn, condemn those responsible
instead. How would you feel if we started condemning you personally
based on the bombings in Egypt?
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: The Orders for the Turkish Extermination of the Armenians #17
Summary: To the children of genocide: "Send them away into the Desert"
Article-I.D.: urartu.1993Apr6.115347.10660
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 145
The Orders for the Turkish Extermination of the Armenians #17
To the children of genocide: "Send them away into the Desert"
This is part of a continuing series of articles containing official Turkish
wartime (WW1) governmental telegrams, in translation, entailing the orders
for the extermination of the Armenian people in Turkey. Generally, these
telegrams were issued by the Turkish Minister of the Interior, Talaat Pasha,
for example, we have the following set regarding children:
"To the Government of Aleppo.
November 5, 1915. We are informed that the little ones belonging to
the Armenians from Sivas, Mamuret-ul-Aziz, Diarbekir and Erzeroum
[hundreds of km distance from Aleppo] are adopted by certain Moslem
families and received as servants when they are left alone through
the death of their parents. We inform you that you are to collect
all such children in your province and send them to the places of
deportation, and also to give the necessary orders regarding this to
the people.
Minister of the Interior,
Talaat" [1]
"To the Government of Aleppo.
September 21, 1915. There is no need for an orphanage. It is not the
time to give way to sentiment and feed the orphans, prolonging their
lives. Send them away to the desert and inform us.
Minister of the Interior,
Talaat" [2]
"To the General Committee for settling and deportees.
November 26, 1915. There were more than four hundred children in the
orphanage. They will be added to the caravans and sent to their
places of exile.
Abdullahad Nuri. [3]
"To the Government of Aleppo.
January 15, 1916. We hear that certain orphanages which have been
opened receive also the children of the Armenians. Whether this is
done through the ignorance of our real purpose, or through contempt
of it, the Government will regard the feeding of such children or
any attempt to prolong their lives as an act entirely opposed to it
purpose, since it considers the survival of these children as
detrimental. I recommend that such children shall not be received
into the orphanages, and no attempts are to be made to establish
special orphanages for them.
Minister of the Interior,
Talaat." [4]
"To the Government of Aleppo.
Collect and keep only those orphans who cannot remember the tortures
to which their parents have been subjected. Send the rest away with
the caravans.
Minister of the Interior,
Talaat" [5]
"From the Ministry of the Interior to the Government of Aleppo.
At a time when there are thousands of Moslem refugees and the widows
of Shekid [fallen soldiers] are in need of food and protection, it is
not expedient to incur extra expenses by feeding the children left by
Armenians, who will serve no purpose except that of giving trouble
in the future. It is necessary that these children should be turned
out of your vilayet and sent with the caravans to the place of
deportation. Those that have been kept till now are also to be sent
away, in compliance with our previous orders, to Sivas.
Minister of the Interior,
Talaat" [6]
In 1926, Halide Edip (a pioneer Turkish nationalist) wrote in her memoirs
about a conversation with Talaat Pasha, verifying and "rationalizing" this
ultra-national fascist anti-Armenian mentality, the following:
"I have the conviction that as long as a nation does the best for
its own interest, and succeeds, the world admires it and thinks
it moral. I am ready to die for what I have done, and I know I
shall die for it." [7]
These telegrams were entered as unquestioned evidence during the 1923 trial of
Talaat Pasha's, assassin, Soghomon Tehlerian. The Turkish government never
questioned these "death march orders" until 1986, during a time when the world
was again reminded of the genocide of the Armenians.
For reasons known to those who study the psychology of genocide denial, the
Turkish government and their supporters in crime deny that such orders were
ever issued, and further claim that these telegrams were forgeries based on a
study by S. Orel and S. Yuca of the Turkish Historical Society.
If one were to examine the sample "authentic text" provided in the Turkish
Historical Society study and use their same forgery test on that sample, it
too would be a forgery!. In fact, if any of the tests delineated by the
Turkish Historical Society are performed an any piece of Ottoman Turkish or
Persian/Arabic script, one finds that anything handwritten in such language is
a forgery.
Today, the body of Talaat Pasha lies in a tomb on Liberty Hill, Istanbul,
Turkey, just next to the Yildiz University campus. The body of this genocide
architect was returned to Turkey from Germany during WW2 when Turkey was in a
heightened state of proto-fascism. Recently, this monument has served as a
focal point for anti-Armenianism in Turkey.
This monument represents the epitome of the Turkish government's pathological
denial of a clear historical event and is an insult to a people whose only
crime was to be born Armenian.
- - - references - - -
[1] _The Memoirs of Naim Bey_, Aram Andonian, 1919, pages 59-60
[2] ibid, page 60
[3] ibid, page 60
[4] ibid, page 61
[5] ibid, page 61
[6] ibid, page 62
[7] _Memoirs of Halide Edip_, Halide Edip, The Century Press, New York (and
London), 1926, page 387
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Treatment of Armenians in Azerbaijan #1
Summary: Prelude to Events Today
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 223
DEPOSITION of VITALY NIKOLAYEVICH DANIELIAN [1]
Born 1972
Attended 9th Grade
Middle School No. 17
Resident at Building 4/2, Apartment 25
Microdistrict No. 3
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]
Really, people in town didn't know what was happening on February 27. I came
home from school at 12 o'clock, being excused to leave before the last period
in order to go to Baku. When we left, everything in town was fine. Life was
the same as usual, a few groups of people were discussing things, soccer and
other things. Then we got on the Sumgait bus bound for Baku for my first
cousin's birthday, my father, my mother, and I. We spent the day in Baku, and
on the 28th, somewhere around 6:00 p.m., we got on the bus for home, figuring
that I'd have enough time to do my homework for the next day.
When we were entering town, near the 12-story high-rises, our bus was stopped
by a very large crowd. The crowd demanded that the Armenians get off the bus.
The driver says that there are no Armenians on board; then everyone on the bus
begins to shout that there are no Armenians on board. The group comes up to
the doors of the bus and has people get out one by one, not checking
passports, just going by the way people look. We get off the bus, but are not
taken for Armenians.
We set out in the direction of home. At first we were going to go into an old
building where we knew there'd be a place to hide, but the whole road was
packed with groups of people, all the way from Block 41 to the 8th
Microdistrict. These groups were emptying people's pockets and checking
passports. People who didn't have passports with them were beaten as well.
Then we decided to go home instead. Near the 12-story high-rises I saw burning
cars and a great many people standing around the driveways, yelling. "Death to
the Armenians" was written on the cars.
When we came into the courtyard--we live in an L-shaped building--it was still
quiet. We went on upstairs, but didn't turn on any lights. We tried to call
Baku to warn our relatives, who were due to arrive on Wednesday, not to come.
Then there was a knock at the door. It was our neighbors, who advised us to
come down to stay at their place. We went down to their place, and they led us
to the basement. They live on the first floor and have a basement which you
enter across the balcony. We sat in the basement while an Armenian woman was
beaten--she ran away naked. Our neighbors' daughter said that that's right,
that's what the Armenians deserve, because in Stepanakert, allegedly, people
were being killed, 11 girls from Agdam had been raped. We didn't stay very
long in the basement. We tried to support one another as best we could,
looking out the small window with the iron grating. Papa watched and said
things now and then. He said that there was a fire near Building 5, probably a
car on fire. Then one of the groups approached our driveway and demanded that
they be shown the apartments where Armenians lived. The neighbors said that
there weren't any Armenians here, and the group set out for the other wing of
the building. They appeared from the 5/2 side of the building, where, I later
found out, a woman had been murdered. The woman who ran away naked died. Yuri
Avakian was killed, too.
When the crowd left, the neighbors said that it was all over and we could go
home. We went back up to our place and again didn't turn on the light. We
started to gather up our things in order to leave Sumgait for a while. We
tried to call a relative who lived in Sumgait, but there was no answer. We
decided she had already left.
We sat at home. The phone rang, and the caller asked to speak with my
father. I called him to the phone. It was Jeykhun Mamedov, from my father's
work brigade. He said he was disgusted by what was happening in our
town. He asked for our address and promised to get a car and help us get
out of the city. To be quite honest, Papa didn't want to give him our address,
but my mother got on the phone and told him. Some 15 minutes after the
call a crowd ran into our entryway. Bursting into the building, they broke
down the door and came into the apartment . . .
They came straight to our apartment, they knew exactly where the Armenians
were. They came into our place. We tried to resist, but there was nothing we
could do. One of them took my parents' passports and began to read them. He
read the surname "Danielian," turned the page, read "Armenian," and that alone
was enough to doom us. He said that we should be moved quickly out into the
courtyard, where they would have done with us. Another, standing next to him,
pushed some of the keys on the piano and said "your death has tolled." They
had knives and steel truncheons.
I had a knife in my hand. Unfortunately, I didn't use it. I just knew that if
I didn't give up the knife things would be much worse. They struck my parents
and said that I should put the knife on the piano. Then, one of them commanded
that we be taken outside. One person was giving orders. When we were taken
outdoors I went in the middle, and my mother was behind me. Someone started to
push her so she'd walk faster; I let her go ahead of me, and fell in behind
her. When he tried to push me, I hit him, and at that moment they began
beating my parents; I realized that resistance was completely useless.
We are taken out into the courtyard, and the neighbors are standing on their
balconies to see what will happen next. The crowd surrounds us. At first they
strike me, and I'm knocked out; when I come to, they beat me again . . . I
lose consciousness often . . . I don't see or hear my parents, since I was the
first one hit and was out cold. When I come to I try to pick them up; they are
lying next to me. The crowd is gone, the only people around are watching from
their balconies. That's it. I try to pick them up, but can't. My left arm is
broken. I start toward the drive, wanting to tell the neighbors to call an
ambulance. The bodies of my parents are still warm.
We were attacked at around 9 o'clock. I regain consciousness at about 11 and
try to make it up the stairs home . . . When I knock at the neighbors' door,
they push me back and tell me to go away. I go up to the third floor, our
neighbor puts a damp cloth on my head and says she will call an ambulance; she
sends her son off for one and takes me to our apartment. I often look out the
window to see if the ambulance has arrived, but I can't see very far as a
result of the blows, and it seems that my parents have already been taken
away. Then I calm down and try to convince myself that they have been taken
away, and everything will be OK.
But they were still there. Later, at 8 in the morning as I found out, the
ambulance picked them up, but they were already dead. If they received
attention on time, it is possible they would still be alive. Later, around 12
o'clock on the 29th, policemen in civilian clothing come to our house with
some "assistants." They call an ambulance, and 20 minutes later it arrives,
and I am taken to the Sumgait Emergency Hospital. There they stitch the wounds
on my head and rebind my arm. At 3 o'clock I and the other Armenians who are
in the hospital are sent by ambulance to Baku.
In my ward at the Sumgait Hospital there were five people, all of them
Armenians. The hospital was nearly overflowing with Armenians. The only
Azerbaijanis there were those whose car had flipped over before the events,
before the 27th.
Then I was in the Semashko Hospital in Baku. I was there 38 days. When I was
released, on the 40th day, I found out that my parents were dead. At first
they told me that they were in Moscow being treated, but later I found out
that they were dead. My father's older brother told me.
My father's name was Nikolai Artemovich Danielian. He was born in 1938. My
mother, born in 1937, was Seda Osipovna Danielian. Papa worked at PMK-20, the
leader of the roofing brigade; mamma was a compressor operator.
They were also beaten on the head. The coroner's report stated that their
heads were smashed open and bled profusely.
At the confrontation I met Jeykhun Mamedov, who had called. As it turned out
later, he had been the one who tipped the crowd off. He had called
specifically to find out if we were at home and to find out the exact address
and dispatch the group. He knew the phone number, but didn't know the address.
Before the events I had never seen him, but had often spoken with him on the
phone, when he would ask to speak with my father. I knew him by name. He
denies that I was the one who answered the phone, saying that my father
answered it. He denies that he called from a public phone, saying that he
called from home, which also isn't true. I heard noise and the sounds of
automobiles. As I later found out, earlier he had been convicted, but had
never served any time--he had received a suspended sentence. He was about 20
years old. I don't know if he has since confessed or not. I am sure that he
was the one who tipped the crowd off. One-hundred percent sure.
My parents were from Karabagh. Father was from the village of Badar, and was
two years old when his family moved to Baku, where his elder brothers were to
go to school. He was a student at the Naval School, but never graduated. He
went off to work on the virgin lands [one of the gigantic agricultural
projects instituted under Khrushchev.] When he returned he lived in Baku, and
later moved to Sumgait, helping with the town's construction. Mamma was from
the village of Dagdagan, also from Karabagh. She worked in Sumgait, first in
a bookstore, and later, on a construction site.
My sister is older than I. She lives with her husband here in Karabagh. I
always loved my parents. That was why I went on to 9th grade, because it
was their dream that I would continue my studies. I finished 8th grade and
wanted to enter the Baku Nautical School, and after that, the Military
School. But later I changed my mind, or rather, my parents got me to recon-
sider, saying that it would be better to finish the 10th grade and then join
the Naval School. I was planning to be in the Navy almost my whole life
long--since childhood I had dreamed of being a sailor. My father wanted it
more than anything. He always recollected his youth, telling of the School,
and he always said that he had made a big mistake in leaving it.
Now I live in Karabagh and never plan to leave here. I will stay at the home
of my grandfather, of my ancestors, till the end of my days.
While in the hospital in Baku I learned the fates of many others who had
suffered as well, like Ishkhan [Trdatov]. He managed to hold them off [at
their residence in Microdistrict 3, Building 6/2, Apartment 6.] for a long
time, lost his father [Gabriel], and by some miracle managed to survive. I
also learned of Uncle Sasha, from Building 5/2, whose daughter was raped
. . . Besides them, Valery--I forgot his last name--was in the hospital too,
about a year younger than I, he went to School No. 14. He was riding with
his parents in the car. People were throwing rocks at them, he was hit, and
his parents brought him to the hospital, and he was in our ward. We even
came to be friends. Before that we had just seen each other around town. But
in the hospital we got to know one another better. I learned of the fates of
others, those who had died, or who were befallen by misfortune . . .
Today Suren Harutunian, the First Secretary of the Communist party of Armenia,
was shown on television. To be honest I am glad that Armenia agreed to
recognize Nagorno Karabagh as part of the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic.
I was repelled, no, revolted, to hear the Baku announcer who read the decision
of the Azerbaijani Supreme Soviet Presidium against Karabagh becoming part of
Armenia.
After the events in Sumgait and those in Baku, the best solution is to give
Karabagh to Armenia, return it to Armenia, since the people want to live
peacefully with the Azerbaijanis, but everything has to be right before they
can do that.
I arrived in Karabagh on April 11. I felt very bad. I had constant headaches.
After a while my strength returned. My older sister, Suzanna, took me in. I
think that justice should prevail; the people are demanding their due.
You can't take away what is their due. My parents and I often spoke of Nagorno
Karabagh, often visited here--spent almost all of my vacations here. We had
even decided that if Karabagh would be made part of Armenia, we would move
here for sure. We always said that the Armenian people had suffered much, and
that what had been done in 1921--removing Nagorno Karabagh from Armenia--was
wrong. Sooner or later, mistakes should be corrected. And in order to correct
a mistake, it must not be repeated; and the fate of all Nagorno Karabagh lies
in the hands of our government.
June 13,1988
Stepanakert
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 47
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: composer.think.com
In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca>, ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
|> In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
|> >
|> >
|> >What are the borders the Islamic world dreams about ??
|>
|> The Islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking
|> the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts.
|> If Jews had the same dream, I would not feel threatened a bit.
Contrary to what the "Protocols of Zion crowd" might suggest,
Judaism does not have any such goals.
|> >Islamic readers, I am waiting to your honest answer.
|>
|> I want also a honest answer from Zionists for the following questions:
|>
|> 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
|> of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
|> than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
The question you ask is complicated and deserves an honest answer.
I am going to provide one from my own current perspective, not a historical
one.  Currently, as a non-observant jew/Israeli/American, my own feeling
is that Jews from the diaspora do not have a greater right in Palestine or
Israel, than the palestinians or Israelis (both arab and jew) do.
With regard to Jewish Israelis, they should have the same rights
in Israel as do all other Israelis.
|> 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
|> the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?
Who are them?  If by them you mean the non-religious Jews, I think
you should be aware by now that the majority of the settlers and their
supporters are religious.  The other part of the problem is, to my
knowledge, not that the palestinians don't want to be a part of Israel,
as much as they would accept (for the most part) being full citizens
of Israel, with all the priviliges and responsibilities accorded Israeli
citizens.  What they object to is the current limbo in which they find
themselves.
--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March
Originator: hasan@fangorn.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: fangorn.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Lines: 206
Sorry guys for this long article, but in fact it is mostly quotings..
In article <FLAX.93Apr6125933@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|>    |>when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that
|>    |>the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE,
|>    |>and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on
|>    |>the ground of occupied territories.
|>    |>
|>    >No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
|>    >of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals
|>    >right
|>    |> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the
|>    |> question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have
|>    |> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.
|>
|>
|>    First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
|>    in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
|>    of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
|>    revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
|>    undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate.
|>
|> Ok, let me re-phrase the question. I have repeatedly asked you if the
|> Israelis have less human rights than the palestinians,
well, if you just waited for 5 more lines you would have read my statement
"Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but ..."
|> and if so, why.
because they belong to the human race, or do you disagree on that too ?
|> From your posting (where you did not directly adress my question) I inferred
|> that you thought so. Together with the above statement I then assumed that the
|> reason was the actions of the state of Israel. Re: your statement of
|> occupation: I'd like you to define the term, so I don't have to repeat this
|> 'drag the answer out of hasan' procedure more than neccesary.
|>
|>    Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to
|>    protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing
|>    Palestinean human rights.
|>
|> I'm sorry, but the above sentence does not make sense. Please rephrase it.
I donot know about you, but it makes full sense to me.
Israelis are being killed because Israel is occupying , Let israel withdraw
and israeli blood will be saved. It isNOT the palestineans who undermined
the right of life of israelis, but it is israel which occupied and exposed
the life of its citizens to the the unconcluded war of 1967 !
More generally, the violence in the occupied terretories is part of the intifada,
and i had previously posted a "long" article about this issue, whom i finished
by an open question:
Suppose the Intifada stops, What is the motive for Israel to withdraw ?
donot tell hope for peace and this bullshit. Everybody in the world looks
and hopes for peace, so why isnot there any. hope of peace is necessary
but not sufficient motive.
|>    |> If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then
|>    |> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?
|>
|>
|>    Because not all states are like Israel,as oppressive,as ignorant,or as tyrant.
|>
|> Oh, ok. So how about the human rights of the Syrians, Iraqis and others?
|> Does the name of Hama sound familiar? Or how about the kurds in Iraq and
|> Turkey?
|> How about the Same in Sweden (Ok, maybe a bit farfetched..) the Russians in
|> the Baltic states or the Moslem in the old USSR and Yugoslavia?
|> Do the serbs have any human rights remainaing, according to you?
As for the Arabian countries, their problems are an Arabian concern.
the Arabian people can deal with it themselves, if the west doesnot intervene.
As for Serbs, I donot think that those FUCKED UP RAPISTS (excuse my language
but it really hurts as much if I was in Bosnia itself) areNOT humans. Those
surely came from outer space or something. No human can allow himself
to see such attrocities than to participate in.
|>    |>    |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
|>    |>
|>    |>    The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
|>    |>    any system can solve it.
|>    |>    The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine).
|>    |>
|>    |> I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for
|>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>    |> all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that
|>    |> mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your
|>    |> reply.
|>
|>    So you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights.
|>    (i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph).
|>
|> No, I'm agreeing that to just kick all the Palestinians out of Israel proper
|> would probably lead to disaster for both parties. If that's what you refer
|> to as the 'Israeli solution' then so be it.
Ok.
|>    |>    Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization)
|>    |>    said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
|>    |> 	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
|>    |> 	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
|>    |> 						^^^                  ^^^
|>    |> 	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
|>    |> 	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
|>    |> 	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
|>    |> 	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
|>    |> 	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be
|>    |> 	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
|>    |> 	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
|>    |> 				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
|>    |> 				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
|>    |>
|> |> Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to
|> |> getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
|> |> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
|> |> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to
|> |> a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
|> |> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
|> |> their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
|> |> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff]
|>
|> >Exactly, you are right. I guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment
|> >is full with  men like Joseph Weitz.
|>
|> Oh? Have you met with them personally, to read their diaries? Fascinating.
|> What do you _do_ for a living?
|>
|> |>    "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which).
|> |>
|> |>    Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the
|> |>    imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
|> |>
|> |>    I think that is fair enough .
|> |>
|> |> No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve
|> |> the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.
|>
|>    Above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ):
|>    any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would
|>    resolve it JUSTLY.
|>
|> An unjust solution would be a non-solution, per definition, no?
My definition is the same as yours, but one has to look into the world politics.
In politics, a "solution" doesNOT imply "JUST solution".
|> You said the following:
|>
|> For all A it holds that A have property B.
|> There exists an A such that property B does not hold.
|>
|> Thus, either or both statements must be false.
|>
|>    |> Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land.
|>
|> >You are proving yourself as a " ". First you understood what i meant, but then
|> >you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic.
|> >Too bad for you, the Master of Wisdom.
|>
|> I was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning.
|> Since you claim to be logical I felt it best to point this out
|> before you started using your statements to prove a point or so.
|> Am I then to assume you are  not logical?
It seems that it was problem in the definition of "solution".
I think a solution must be just, because otherwise it would never be lasting.
However, when politicians say a solution, they donot mean a just solution but
just a solution.
|> |>    "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
|> |> 			   -Rabbi Shoham.
|> |>
|> |> Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
|> |> a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.
|>
|> >Why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in ,
|> >if you were a Zionists. If you believe in Zionist codes and acts,
|> >well i feel sorry for you, because the same Rabbi Shoham had said
|> >"Yes, Zionism is racism".
|> >If you feel ashamed and bothered by the Zionist codes, then drop Zionism.
|> >If you are not Zionist, why are you bothered then. You should join me in
|> >condemning these racist Zionist codes and acts.
|>
|> Any quote can be misused, especially when used to stereotype all
|> individuals by a statement of an individual. If you use the same
|> methods that you credit 'Zionists' with, then where does that place you?
|>
|> Oh, by the way, I'd advice you not to assume anything about my 'loyalties'.
|> I will and am condemning acts I find vile and inhuman, but I'll try as
|> long as I can not to assume those acts are by a whole people.
|> By zionist above do you mean the state of Israel, the government of Israel,
|> the leaders of Israel (political and/or religious) or the jews in
|> general? If you feel the need to condemn, condemn those responsible
|> instead. How would you feel if we started condemning you personally
|> based on the bombings in Egypt?
|>
|> Jonas Flygare,
Hasan
From: warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?
Article-I.D.: itexjct.2579
Organization: ITEX, Jerusalem, Israel
Lines: 23
In <1993Apr5.211146.3662@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
>(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
>but in fact is an Armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the
>massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
>impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
>of confusion.
But what is Hasan B. Multu's middle name?  I'm not sure, but I heard
it was "Bibo".  I also seem to recall that "Argic" is Azari for "bites
the wax Macedonian".
We don't have a mail address, but how about finding a snail address?
Then instead of quashing Shergold rumors, we could just redirect them
- Ahmed Cosar is a seven year old Greek boy with an incurable case of
crossposting.  His wish is to get into the Usenet Book of World
Records for having the highest noise to signal ratio.
--
/|/-\/-\
|__/__/_/
|warren@
/ nysernet.org
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: They were completely and systematically exterminated by Armenians.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 96
In article <C4xCu3.401@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>Do it.  Depew has shown himself to be unrepentant (though embarrassed) and
>still possessed of the same fucked-up hubris-laden self-righteousness that
The theory is that the hollering kills the spirit of the criminal/Nazi
Armenians of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle.
Now, try dealing with the rest of what I wrote.
What is more, the activities of the Armenian Government seem to have been
efforts aimed at eradicating a race (the Turks) or aimed at carrying out a
one-sided feud, instead of being a struggle for liberation. From the outset,
the efforts of the Armenian revolutionaries within the Ottoman borders took
the form of terrorist and destructive actions aimed at mass murder, cruelty
and genocide, so that no other interpretation of them is possible. Armenian
activities started during the reign of Abdulhamid II as individual acts of
terror, and then developed into assassinations and surprise attacks. The element
of brute force in these activities increased steadily, culminating in mass
rebellions and widespread fighting during the First World War. Furthermore,
when the Ottoman army withdrew from Eastern Anatolia after the 1915 Sarikamis
defeat, Armenian revolutionaries initiated a series of cruelties in this area.
Although the Russians occupied Eastern Anatolia as an enemy, nevertheless they
were constrained by the rules of war. However, when they returned to their
country in 1917 after the Revolution, Armenian revolutionaries were unchecked
in this area for about a year until the Ottoman forces returned to Erzurum
in 1918. During this period, Armenian revolutionaries executed massacres on
the local people which is recorded in historical documents.[1]
For example, let us look at a report dated 21 March 1918 which the Commander
of the Third Army submitted when he entered Erzurum and Erzincan:
"They were completely and systematically destroyed and burned down
by Armenians, even the trees were cut down, and they are like a
building entirely consumed by fire in every sense of the word."
As for the people who had been living in Erzurum and Erzincan:
"Those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning
with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken
in the direction of Sarikamis and annihilated. When the Russian army
withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in Armenian
massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked
in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places
selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs
were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after
being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. A very small part
of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the
cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering
from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived
in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to.
Including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not
exceed one thousand five hundred in Erzincan and thirty thousand in
Erzurum. All the fields in Erzincan and Erzurum are untilled, everything
that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them
in a destitute situation. At the present time, the people are subsisting
on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from Russian storages
left behind after their occupation of this area."[2]
Foreign observers who witnessed the events, including Russian Officers
who did not desert their lines, submitted detailed reports proving the
genocide to Ottoman commanders who received them as prisoners of war.
What is most important is that they stated in their reports 'the
massacres did not happen by chance but were planned.'[3]
At the end of the war, the German author Dr. Weiss, his Austrian colleague
Dr. Stein and his Turkish colleague Mr. Ahmet Vefik visited Trabzon, Kars,
Erzurum and Batum between April 17th and May 20th 1918 to record the
cruelties. Their writings not only show the scope of Armenian activities,
but also reveal their goal and true nature.[4]
[1] (The Ottoman State, the Ministry of War), "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1918). The French
version: "Documents Relatifs aux Atrocites Commises par les Armeniens sur
la Population Musulmane," (Istanbul, 1919). In the Latin script: H. K.
Turkozu, ed., "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi," (Ankara,
1982). In addition: Z. Basar, ed., "Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara,
1974) and, edited by the same author, "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler -
Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978). "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ...," Vol. 32, 83
(December 1983), document numbered 1881.
[2] "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ....," Vol. 31, 81 (December 1982), document
numbered 1869.
[3] From Twerdo-Khlebof's report dated 29 April 1918; quoted in Ermeniler ...,
Vol. 2, p. 275.
[4] A. R. (Altinay), "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919), and, "Kafkas
Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler" (Istanbul, 1919).
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and...
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 41
In article <2BAC23FF.25215@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>There was no such letter in the Chronicle on that date, or at any other time.
Is this a figment of your imagination? Here is another one:
Source: "Mitteilungsblatt, Berlin, December 1939, Nr. 2 and 5-6"
Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately
forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi
collaboration.
A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft
is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The
magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany
and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the
magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation,
is attention-getting.
This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically
important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be
an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind.
In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and certain
political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to them. They
occupied positions in public service and were partners in Nazi practices.
The whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered
"Aryan" and what befell them.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Greek prime minister shows support for Serbian criminals
Keywords: international, non-usa government, government, fighting, civil rights, social issues
Article-I.D.: newsflas.C53562.JHH
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Lines: 67
Nntp-Posting-Host: davinci.ece.concordia.ca
The above headline is much better than the original one.
read on..
In article <yugoslav-greeceU3A6430pe@clarinet.com> clarinews@clarinet.com (DEJAN ANASTASIJEVIC) writes:
>	BELGRADE, Yugoslavia (UPI) -- Greek Prime Minister Constantine
>Mitsotakis visited the capital of the Serbia-Montenegro federation
>Tuesday in an apparent attempt to press Serbian leaders into accepting
>the international plan to end the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
So far so good...
>	``I came here as an old friend of this country...to help in solving
>the burning problem of Bosnia-Herzegovina,'' Mitsotakis told reporters
>after talking for two hours with President Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia.
Old friend, whatever....
>	``I did not come here to discuss any particular plan. I came to hear
>the Serbian point of view,'' he said, adding that Serbia is ``sincerely
>trying to bring peace to the region.''
That is a great attitude for someone who wants to pressure the Serbs to
accept a peace plan that gives them most of the territory they got by
force and terror.
>	Milosevic said that Serbia and Greece had ``practically identical
>views'' on the Bosnian war, which started late in March 1992 when the
this is a good thing to hear. Anybody wondering why Serbia is not
really under any boycott? Anybody remembers the Gulf war? Did Saddam
kill 100,000 people and rape 50,000 women?
>	In an effort to pressure Milosevic, who is considered to be the main
>patron of Serbian territorial conquest in Bosnia, the U.N. Security
>Council has threatened to impose new sanctions against Serbia and
>Montenegro and implement a no-fly zone over Bosnian skies.
Still in the threatening stage.. Maybe when there is no more Bosnians,
the UN will lift the arms Embargo on them! Military intervention? that
is reserved for Muslim countries.
NOW HEAR THIS:
>	After meeting Milosevic, Mitsotakis had separate talks with Radovan
>Karadzic, the leader of Bosnian Serbs.
>	``I encouraged Mr. Karadzic to proceed with his efforts to achieve a
>just peace in the region,'' he said.
>	``We are ready to play a positive role in the Balkans,'' said
>Mitsotakis.
real positive I might add, in favor of his old freinds of course!
>	Karadzic said that he was ``honored'' to meet the Greek premier.
>	``Greeks are not one sided, and they do not tend to condemn only one
You bet they are not!
>side in this war,'' said Karadzic.
>	``We will continue to negotiate on all levels,'' he said.
>	Before meeting with Milosevic, Mitsotakis had talks with President
>Dobrica Cosic of the federal Yugoslav union of Serbia and Montenegro,
>and Patriarch Pavle, the head priest of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
Anybody is still convinced that this is not a religious war?
A psychopath like Karadzik is considered a peacelover.. Of course he
sent 100,000 muslims to permanent peace. With the blessings of Patriarch
Pavle.
From: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 4
We really should try to be as understanding as we can for Brad, because it
appears killing is all he knows.
Jesse
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Brad Hernlem vs. principle
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 50
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
In his neverending effort to make sure that we do not forget
what a moron he is, Brad Hernlem has asked why Israel rarely
abides by UN Security Council resolutions.  Perhaps the list
below might answer the question.
Incident                           Security Council Response
------------------------------------------------------------
1. Hindu-Moslem clash in INdia, over 2,000 killed, 1990    NONE
2. Gassing to death of over 8,000 Kurds by                 NONE
Iraqi Air Force, 1988-89
3. Saudi security forces slaughter                         NONE
400 pilgrims in Mecca, 1987
4. Killing by Algerian army of 500 demonstrators, 1988     NONE
5. Intrafada (Arabs killing Arabs) -- over 300 killed      NONE
6. 30,000 civilians slaughtered by government              NONE
troops in Hama, Syria, 1982
7. Killing of 5,000 Palestinians by Jordanian troops,      NONE
thousands expelled, Sept., 1970
8. 87 Moslems killed in Egypt, 1981                        NONE
9. 77 killed in Egyption bread riots, 1977                 NONE
10. 30 border and rocket attacks against Israel by          NONE
the PLO in 1989 alone
11. Munich, 1972: 11 Israeli athletes slaughtered           NONE
12. Ma'alot, 1974: children killed in PLO attack            NONE
13. Israel Coastal bus attack: 34 dead, 82 wounded          NONE
14. Syria kills 23,000 Palestinians, 1976                   NONE
15. Lebanon: over 150,000 dead since 1975                   NONE
16. Yemen: 13,000 killed in two weeks, 1986                 NONE
17. Sudan: Tens of thousands of Black slaves,               NONE
Civil War toll, 1 million killed, 3 million refugees
18. Tienenman Square massacre 1989                          NONE
19. Rumania, 3,000 killed, 1989                             NONE
20. Pan Am 103 disaster carried out by the P.L.O            NONE
21. Northern Ireland                                        NONE
22. Cambodia                                                NONE
23. Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan                        NONE
24. American riots at Attica, Watts, Newark, Kent State     NONE
25. 1981: Israel destroys Iraqi reractor, Israel         CONDEMNED
26. 1990: Israeli police protect Israeli worshipers      CONDEMNED
against Arab mob, 18 anti-Jewish rioters killed
27. Syrian soldiers slaughter Christian soldiers            NONE
after they surrender, 1990
It appears that Brad Hernlem and the United Nations Security
Council have something in common.  They both seem unfettered
by the demands of acting on principle.
From: mrizvi@gfx.engga.uwo.ca (Mr. Mubashir Rizvi)
Subject: Re: No humanity in Bosnia
Organization: Univ. Western Ontario, London Ont. CA
Keywords: Barbarism
Nntp-Posting-Host: cad8.gfx.engga.uwo.ca
Lines: 11
It is very encouraging that a number of people took so interest in my posting.I recieved a couple of letters too,some has debated the statement that events in Bosnia are unprecedented in the history of the modern world.Those who contest this statement present the figures of the World War II.However we must keep in mind that it was a World War and no country had the POWER to stop it,today is the matter not of the POWER but of the WILL.It
seems to be that what we lack is the will.
Second point of difference (which makes it different from the holocast(sp?) ) is that at that time international community
didnot have enough muscle to prevent the unfortunate event,
today inspite of all the might,the international community is not just standing neutral but has placed an arms embargo which
is to the obvious disadvantage of the weeker side and therefore to the advantage of the bully.Hence indirecltly and possibly
unintentionally, mankind has sided with the killers.And this,I think is unprecedented in the history of the modern world.
M.Rizvi
From: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Reply-To: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 43
In article <C5IF8u.3Ky@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos
Tamamidis ) writes:
>  Yeah, too much Mutlu/Argic isn't helping.  I could, one day, proceed and
You shouldn't think many Turks read Mutlu/Argic stuff.
They are in my kill file, likewise any other fanatic.
> >(I have nothing against Greeks but my problem is with fanatics. I have met
> >so many Greeks who wouldn't even talk to me because I am Turkish. From my
> >experience, all my friends always were open to Greeks)
>
>  Well, the history, wars, current situations, all of them do not help.
Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
believe for somebody trying to be objective.
When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
Do you think it was your right to be there?
I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals
why the hatred? So that makes me think that there is some kind of
brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person
treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your
history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
encounters during your schooling.
take it easy!
--
Tankut Atan
tankut@iastate.edu
"Achtung, baby!"
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Peace talks ...
Nntp-Posting-Host: supergas
Reply-To: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Lines: 23
From Israeline 4/14
Today's MA'ARIV reports that yesterday, following Egyptian
President Hosni Mubarak's meeting with PLO Chief Yasser Arafat and
prominent Palestinian Faisal al-Husseini, the latter said that in
principle, the Palestinians have decided to participate in the
peace talks. Nonetheless, he noted that everything will be decided
upon at the meeting of the Arab foreign ministers in Damascus. The
newspaper also reports that threatening phone calls were recently
made to houses of several of the senior members of the Palestinian
delegation to the peace talks. The threats, in Arabic, demanded
that the delegates not go to Washington to, "sell out the
Palestinian people." One caller threatened, "Should you go, you
will not find your family alive upon your return." The newspaper
states that such phone calls were received, as far as is known, at
the houses of Faisal al-Husseini, Hanan Ashrawi and others.
----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Rights Violations in Azerbaijan #007
Summary: Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 821
Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Rights Violations in Azerbaijan #007
Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                          |
| They grab Papa, carry him into one room, and Mamma and me into another.  |
| They put Mamma on the bed and start undressing her, beating her legs.    |
| They start tearing my clothes, right there, in front of Mamma. I don't   |
| remember where they went, what they did, or how much time passed. I had  |
| the feeling that they beat me on the head, on my body, and tore my       |
| clothes, all at the same time, I don't even know what I said. The        |
| atrocities started. I was savagely raped in that room. They argued among |
| themselves who would go first.                                           |
|                                                                          |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
DEPOSITION OF KARINE (KARINA) GRIGOREVNA M. [1]
Born 1964
Secretary-Typist
Azsantekmontazh Trust
Sumgait Construction and Installation Administration
Secretary of the SMU Komsomol Organization
Resident at Building 17/33B, Apartment 15
Microdistrict No. 3
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]
On the 27th my sister Marina and I went to the movies the seven o'clock show,
at the theater that is across from the City Party Committee, about 50 yards
away. The SK theater. They were showing an Argentinian film, "The Abyss."
Before the film we noticed about 60 to 70 people standing near the podium at
the City Party Committee, but they were silent, there's no conversation
whatsoever, and we couldn't figure out what was going on. That is, we knew it
was about Karabagh, but what it was exactly, what they were talking about, if
someone gave a speech or not, we didn't know. We bought our tickets. There
were 30 or 40 people in the theater. This was a very small number for that
large movie theater. The film started. About 30 minutes later they stopped the
film. A crowd burst in. About 60 people. They came up onto the stage. Well
mostly they were young people, from 16 to 23 years old. They demanded that an
Armenian woman come up onto the stage. They used foul language and said that
they were going to show what Azerbaijanis were capable of, what they could do
to Armenian girls. I thought that's what they meant because they had demanded
a girl specifically. Marina and I were sitting together. I told her to move
over, there were some Russian girls sitting nearby. So that if someone
recognized me or if something happened, they would take me, and not Marina.
It got quiet, 2 or 3 girls jumped up to run out, but the door was closed--it's
only opened at the end of the   show--and they returned to their seats.
Everyone in the theater was looking at one another, Russians, Azerbaijanis,
people of various nationalities. But no one reacted at all, no one in the
auditorium made a sound. They were silent, looking at one another, and
gradually started to leave. Some guy, a really fat one, says, "OK, we've
scared them enough, let's leave." They leave slowly, pompously. It seemed to
me that those people were not themselves. Either they had smoked a bunch of
"anasha", or had taken something else, because they all looked beastly, like
they were ready to tear anyone apart. Then it was all over, as though nothing
had happened at all. The film started up again, it was one of those cheerful
films which should have only brought pleasure, made you happy to be alive. We
could barely sit to the end. So it had started at seven it was over by nine,
and it was dark . . .
Marina and I were walking home, Lenin Street, that's the center of town. Lenin
Street was packed, just packed with young people. They were shouting,
something about Karabagh and something about Armenians. We weren't especially
listening, because the way we were feeling we didn't know if we were going to
make it home or not, and just what had happened anyway? Public transportation
wasn't running. Incidentally, when we came out of the theater we saw police,
policemen standing there. The director of the movie theater was looking at the
doors, because when they were leaving they had broken the glass, the doors
there are basically all glass. Everything was broken. He stood there grief-
stricken, but looking as though nothing really big had happened, like some
naughty boys had just broken them quite by accident, with a slingshot. Well,
since he looked more or less calm I decided that, nothing all that super
serious had happened. We went out very slowly; we wanted to catch a bus, we
live literally one stop away. We didn't want to go on foot, not because it was
dark, but because something might happen. We flagged down a cab, but the
driver didn't want to take us. We told him we live near the bus station, and
he said he'd take us to the bus station and not a yard farther. I said, well,
OK . . .
So we got into the cab and managed to get there. Something incredible was
happening at the bus station. There was a traffic jam. Public transportation
was at a standstill and everyone was shouting "Ka-ra-bagh," they're not going
to give up Karabagh. I go home and tell my family what's going on, and there's
immediate panic in the house. Mamma says, what should we do? Like the end had
come, they were going to come, kill us, that's it . . . Somehow we managed to
cheer ourselves up: Nothing that bad could happen. Where are we living anyway,
just what kind of social order do we have? Somehow we manage to calm Mamma
down. And we went to bed. But no one could sleep. Everyone made as though
nothing had happened.
That was on Saturday. In short, the day went by. We didn't go anywhere and
didn't call our relatives. No one did anything. Because . . . life goes on.
That day I realized something was approaching, but what exactly, I couldn't
guess.
On the 28th everything was like it was supposed to be, we lived like we always
had. There were five of us at home: Mamma, Papa and us, three sisters: Lyuda,
Marina, and I. My sister Lyuda was in Yerevan at the time. We sat at home and
no one went out. Later we learned that a demonstration had started that
morning. It all started . . . They were smashing up stores. We were sitting at
home and didn't know anything about it. Then a girlfriend of mine, Lyuda
Zimogliad, came by at around three o'clock I think. We worked together, we did
our apprenticeships together, she's a Russian girl. She said that something
awful was happening in town. I asked, "Don't they want Armenians? Well what
are they after, if they're already in that state?" She says, no, nothing like
that, it's just a demonstration, but it's awful to watch it. Somehow, it feels
like a war has broken out. Public transportation has been stopped . . . The
cabs, the buses, well it's just a nightmare.
Then Papa decides to go to the drugstore, my mother was having allergy
problems at the time . . . He left the house and our neighbor, Aunt Vera,
asked him, "Where are you going? Stop! There are such terrible things going
on in the courtyard; aren't you afraid to go out?" Papa didn't know what she
was talking about. She simply pushed him back into the entryway. He came home
and told Mamma. Mamma said, "Well, if Aunt Vera was talking like that it means
that something is really going on." But we didn't go see her, she's a Russian,
she lives across from us. I had to see my friend out. Around five o'clock I
tell Lyuda, "Ok, look, it's time for you to go, it's late already, I'll see
you out." Mamma says, "You don't need to go, it's too late already, you can
see what the situation in town is." So we decided to stay home. Dinner was
ready. Mamma says, "Let her eat with us, then she can go." We sat down at the
table. But no one was hungry, no one was in the mood, we just put everything
out on the table to calm ourselves down, and make it appear that we're eating.
We turned on the television, and the show "In Fairy-Tale Land" was coming on.
We cleared the table.
We hear some noise out in the courtyard. I go out on the balcony, but I can't
see what's going on, because the noise is coming from the direction of the bus
station, and there is a 9-story building in the way. There is mob of people
. . . I can't figure out what's happening. They're shouting something, looking
somewhere, I can't make out what is going on. I go down to a neighbor, she's
an Azerbaijani; we've been friends of her family for about 25 years. I go down
to look from their place. I see people shouting, looking at the 5-and 9-story
buildings near the bus station. Just then soldiers set upon them, about 20
people, with clubs. The mob runs off in different directions. I even see
several people from our building. They are looking and laughing . . . I decide
that means it's not all that bad if they are laughing: it means they're not
killing anyone. But now the crowd suddenly dashes toward the soldiers. One of
the soldiers cannot manage to get away, they start stomping on him with their
feet, everyone's kicking him . . . I become ill and go home, and explain in
general terms that horrible things are going on out there . . .  can't speak
. . . Well, they've probably killed that soldier, the way that crowd is . . .
If each of them kicked him just once . . . They took his club away from him
and started to beat him with it. But it was far away and I couldn't see if he
got up and left or not.
I become terrified and go home and say, "Lyuda, don't go anywhere, stay at our
place, because if you go out they could kill you or . . . " Then the crowd
runs over closer toward our building and stands at the 12-story building and
starts shouting something. We go out onto the balcony. All of our neighbors
are also out on theirs, too. Everyone is standing, staring. The mob is
shouting and about 5 minutes later comes running toward our building. As it
turns out, at the 12-story building the Azerbaijani neighbors went down and
kept them from coming in. There's only one entryway there, they could stop
them.
They all run up to our building. Mamma immediately starts closing the windows,
afraid that they might throw stones. They have stones and they break the
windows, all of them. There are very many people. We have a large courtyard,
and it's packed with people. They spill up to the first floor so they don't
crush each other. They crawl up on trees, posts, and garages. It's just a huge
cloud of people. They break and burn the motorcycle of the Armenian Sergey
Sargisian, from our building. We close the windows and immediately hear
tramping in our entryway. They come up to our fifth floor with a tremendous
din and roar. It's incomprehensible. Mamma told me later that they were
shouting Father's name, "Grisha, open the door, we've come to kill you!," or
something like that. I don't remember that, I was spaced out, kind of. Mamma
says, "Into the bedroom, quickly!" In the bedroom we have two tall beds, part
of our dowry; Mamma says, "Hide there, they probably won't come in there,
they'll ask something, say something, and leave." She says, "We'll tell them
that we live alone here." I can't imagine that my parents will stand out in
the hall alone talking with some sort of beasts . . . I go to them and say
that I'll stand together with them, I'll talk with them if they come, maybe I
can find a common language with them, all the more so if they know me: I speak
Azerbaijani more or less, and I can find out what they want. I told Marina and
Lyuda to hide under the bed, and my sister Lyuda, I can't remember if I told
her anything or not.
Then . . . they open the door: it's like they blew on it and it broke and fell
right into the hall. The crows bursts in and starts to shout: Get out of here,
leave, vacate the apartment and go back to your Armenia; things like that. I
tell them, "What has happened, speak calmly. One of you, tell me, calmly, what
has happened." In Azerbaijani, they say, "Get out of the apartment, leave." I
say, "OK. Go downstairs. We'll gather everything we need and leave the
apartment." I realize that it is senseless to discuss any sort of rights with
them, these are animals. They must be stopped. The ones standing in the
doorway, the young guys, say, "There are old people and one girl with them.
Too bad!" They take two or three steps back. It seems as though I have
pacified them with our exchange. Then someone in the courtyard shouts,
commanding them: "Don't you understand what you are saying? Kill them?"
And that was it! That was all it took. They grab Papa, carry him into one
room, and Mamma and me into another. They put Mamma on the bed and start
undressing her, beating her legs. They start tearing my clothes, right there,
in front of Mamma. I don't remember where they went, what they did, or how
much time passed. I had the feeling that they beat me on the head, on my body,
and tore my clothes, all at the same time, I don't even know what I said. The
atrocities started. I was savagely raped in that room. They argued among
themselves who would go first.
Later, I remember, I came to. I don't know if I'm dead or alive. Someone comes
in, someone tall, I think, clean-shaven, in an Eskimo dogskin coat, balding.
He looks around at what's happening. At that instant everything stops. It
seems to me that he is either their commander or . . . that somehow everything
depends on him. He looks and says, "Well, we're done here." They are beating
Mamma on the head. They break up the chairs and beat her with the chair legs
. . . She loses consciousness, and they decide that she's dead. Papa . . . was
out cold. They want to throw Lyuda off the balcony, but they can't get the
window open. Apparently the window frames are stuck after the rain and the
windows can't be opened. They leave her next to the window. She was thinking
about being thrown out the window and passed out. She's not a real strong
person anyway . . . He looks at me and sees that I'm saying something, that
I'm still twitching. Well, I start saying the opposite of what I should be,
which is humbling myself and pleading. I start shouting, cursing . . . they
don't get any entreaty out of me. I  already know that I'm dead, why would I
humble myself before anyone? And he says that if that's what I think, since my
tongue is so long . . . maybe he thinks that I still look quite appealing
. . . In short, he commands that I be taken outside.
I no longer saw or remembered what was happening to Marina and Lyuda, I don't
know if they are alive or not. They take me outside. They are dragging me by
my arms, by my legs. They are hitting me against the wall, the railings,
something metal . . . While they are carrying me someone is biting me, someone
else is pinching me . . .I don't even know. I think, my God, when will death
come? If only it were sooner . . . Then . . . they carry me out, throw me near
the entryway . . . and start kicking me. I lose consciousness . . . What
happened after that, how many people there were, I don't remember.
I come to after a while, I don't remember how long. A neighbor is bringing me
clothing. I'm entirely covered with blood, she puts a dress on me. I remember
that I said the same words over and over again: "Mamma, what happened, Mamma,
what have they done to us, where are we, whose house are we at?" I can't make
sense out of anything. There is a guy standing over me, I sort of know him, he
served in Afghanistan, his name is Igor, he brought me indoors. When they all
went to the third entryway and killed a person there, Igor gathered his
courage, took me into his arms, and brought me to the neighbors', even though
he's small-minded, he put himself at risk. Igor Agayev is Azerbaijani; he
served in Afghanistan. There are three brothers. The older brother also served
there, I think; now he's stationed here, on the border, in Armenia. Igor
brought me to the neighbors', and then helped me come to my senses, saying,
"Karina, I know you, calm down, I'm not one of them." How do I know who's who
and what's what? I come to, and they clean me up. I was covered in blood. Then
Papa . . . I saw Papa, I saw Mamma. And Marina, too . . . Igor was there when
they dragged Marina and Lyuda out from under the bed . . . Marina . . . Lyuda
said that she was Russian, they said, we'll let you go, we aren't touching the
Russians, go. And while they are dragging Marina out she decides she's going
to tell them she's Azerbaijani. Igor immediately grabs Marina's and Lyuda's
hands, because he knows Marina, and knows that she is Armenian and is our
sister, and takes her to the second floor to a neighbor's and starts pounding
on the door so she will open up. She opens the door and Igor pushes them in
there. So they survived.
My sister Lyuda lost consciousness after the bandits started stealing things.
While they were going downstairs, taking things downstairs, then coming back
up again, Lyuda seized the opportunity and crawled under the bed and stayed
there. Then, when she was herself again, she found a torn night shirt and put
it on, and some sort of robe and went to a neighbor's on the fourth floor, the
one whose apartment I had watched the crowd from, the friend of ours, and
knocked on the door. The neighbor opened and said, "I'm not going to let you
in the apartment because I'm afraid of them. But I'll give you some stockings
and we'll leave the building." Lyuda says, "I'll stay at your place because of
what's going on, they keep going up and down the stairs." It was just for a
moment, just a moment in life, but the neighbor wouldn't consent. Lyuda came
back to our place and lay under the bed . . .
I came to. Mother was there. I can't remember my supervisor's telephone
number, but something had to be done. Somehow I remembered and called, and he
came to get us. He didn't have any idea what was going on. He thought we were
simply afraid, he didn't know that they were killing us and that we had passed
between life and death. He came and got us and took us to the police precinct.
There they looked us over. I was having trouble walking, my lungs hurt badly,
it was hard to breathe . . .
My supervisor's name is Urshan Feyruzovich Mamedov. He's the head of our
administration. They took us there. When we were leaving, I saw a great number
of buses full of soldiers at the entrance to town. The buses were ordinary
passenger buses. There were very many soldiers. We left around eleven, right
after eleven. If these people could stop what was happening they could save a
great many lives . . . Because the crowd was moving on, toward the school, and
what was going on there . . . I think everyone know not only in Sumgait, not
only in Yerevan. Because there they murdered them all one after the next,
without stopping. After us.
I think 14 people died in Microdistrict No. 3, and 10 to 12 of them were from
Buildings 4, 5, and 6. In our building one person died, and one old woman died
from Building 16, that's the building in front of ours. There young
Azerbaijani men stopped the mob and wouldn't let it into their building.
Incidentally, when we were at the neighbors', Marina called our relatives
to warn them, so they would all know what was happening. I called a aunt in
Microdistrict No. 5. They have three neighbors who are Armenians. I said, "Run
quickly, I can't explain what's going on; hide, do what you can, just stay
alive. Hide at Azerbaijanis', ones who won't give you away." At that moment
three people came in, policemen. I think they were Azerbaijanis. I was in such
awful condition, my face was completely distorted my lips were puffed up,
there was blood, my eye was swollen, no one thought I would ever see anything
out of that eye again . . . my forehead was badly cut, and one-half of my face
was pushed out forward. No one would have thought that I would survive, get my
normal appearance back, and be able to grasp anything at all. I started to
scream at those people, why did you come, who sent you here, no one wants you
here, haven't you killed people people yet, what are you doing here? One of
the soldiers said, "Don't scream at us. We're Muslims, but we're not from the
Sumgait police. They called in from Daghestan." So at that point the
Daghestan police were there.
When we got to the police precinct there were an awful lot of police there,
there were soldiers, police with dogs, ambulances, firemen . . . I don't know,
maybe they were waiting for people to bring them the goners and the seriously
injured to treat them there in the police precinct. I don't know what they
were there for. There were also doctors from Baku there. They examined Lyuda
and me and said, "These women need to go to the Maternity Home, but we don't
know what to do with the rest."
So they took us, and I lost contact with my parents, my boss, everyone. My
boss said, "Don't worry, I'll find you, no matter where you are, no matter
what happens." We went to the hospital. There we were examined by a department
head from the Sumgait Maternity Home, Pashayeva, I think her name was. She
examined us. The ambulance was from Baku; I figured out that the Sumgait
ambulances hadn't done anything, they didn't respond to any calls. People
called and neither the police nor the ambulances showed any sign of life.
That doctor looked me over and I could tell from her behavior that something
very good had happened, for she became quite glad. I even thought to myself,
"God, can it be that nothing all that bad is wrong?" She looks me over and
says, "Now why are you suffering so? You don't know what your people have been
doing, your people did even worse things." And I think, great, I have to deal
with her . . . And I felt so bad, I thought, why don't I just die so as not to
have to hear more stuff like this from people like her? Here I am in this
condition and being told about something that our people did. I just didn't
have the energy to say, "How could our people possibly be smart enough to
think of something that yours haven't already done?" I stayed there. Then they
brought in another woman, Ira B., she was married, and she was raped in her
own apartment, too. There were three of us, Ira, Lyuda, and 1. The next
morning they took Lyuda and Ira away. They didn't do anything to help us. This
was in the old Maternity Home, in the combined block. They didn't do anything
more than examine me, that was it. I didn't want any shots or tranquilizer,
nothing. What shots could have calmed me down? I didn't even want to look at
them.
I lay in the ward. Either it just worked out that way or they did it on pur-
pose, but I was alone. I was alone even though the wards were packed. That
same evening a woman came by and asked me what was wrong with me, that my face
was disfigured. She asked what had happened to me, and I said, "Better to ask
your brother what happened, there's no point in asking me, your brother can
better explain what happened." She fell into a faint. All the doctors threw
themselves at her, and the doctor categorically forbade anyone to come into my
ward.
Then people from work came to see me, my boss, his daughter; they brought me
clothing, because I was literally naked. The only thing I had on was a dress,
but the woman who gave it to me was very short, and the dress was way up
above my knees, and the woman orderly said, "I can't believe you put on such a
short dress, who are you showing off your legs to here?" I went back to my
ward thinking, just one more thing from something. People from work came and
brought me something in a sack, apples, I think, three or four pounds, but I
couldn't take them. I had become so weak that it was just embarrassing. I said
that I couldn't take the apples, and really didn't have any appetite. No one
had to bring me anything. Some woman took the sack . . . And, oh yes! . . .
Then I heard that the head doctor tell a nurse that my medical history should
be hidden or torn up completely so that no one would know that I was an
Armenian, maybe they wouldn't figure it out from looking at me. So they must
have been thinking that there would be some kind of attack, that something
else would happen. That it would be worse. Or, perhaps, someone was outside on
the street, I don't know. In any case, I didn't sleep a wink that night.
The next morning they picked me up, a whole police detail, put me in a bus,
and off we went. I didn't even know where they were taking me. They took me to
the club where the troops were, the very one I was in that ill-fated evening.
I got off the bus. Near the City Party Committee there were a great many
troops, tanks, armored personnel carriers; the whole scene was terrible. I saw
a few people I knew there, and that calmed me a little. I had already thought
that I was the only one left. So there were five or six of us left in Sumgait
after that night. I still didn't know what happened to my parents, they didn't
come to see me in the hospital, and my boss told me that everything was fine.
I didn't know whether to believe him or not. Maybe he was just trying to calm
me down, maybe something happened on the way. Then I went to the club and saw
a lot of people I knew. They all knew one another, they were all kissing each
other and asking, "What happened, what went on?" Two days later they came to
see me from work. They were there all the time. Each day they came, showed
interest, and were constantly bringing me money. They did everything they
could. Of course I'm most thankful to my boss, the only one of my colleagues
who didn't lose his presence of mind and who didn't change his opinions,
neither before, nor after, nor in the heat of the moment, no matter what
happened. He constantly took an interest. A sincere interest, from the heart
. . . Then, about two days later, the secretary of the Party Committee came,
not from our Party organization, but from the First Trust, which ours is part
of, Comrade Kerimov, a very important figure in our town. He made arrangements
with the emergency medical personnel to take me away, because if I sat down by
myself I couldn't get up or lie down again. There was something wrong with my
lungs, it was hard to breathe. They examined me there several times, there I
lay were several doctors, they all thought that . . . that it must just be
from all the blows, I don't know. They didn't diagnose anything in particular.
When I was in the Maternity Home I even asked . . . I made it a point of
insisting that they take me to the trauma section because I felt so awful.
There was no way something inside wasn't broken, my ribs . . . Well they took
me there and took x-rays and said that everything was fine. There were
emergency medical workers on duty in the club. The mother of one of Marina's
friends was there. She was the head doctor at the Sumgait Children's Clinic.
They had every kind of antifever agent in the world, which was exactly what I
needed at that moment, I thought. I said that I was having great difficulty
breathing, I couldn't seem to get enough air, something was wrong with me.
They put tight bandages around my chest and waist. Later I overheard some
people saying that I had been cut all over. I think they just saw me being all
bandaged up and decided that my breasts and face had been cut . . . But I
wasn't cut.
They took us to the Khimik boarding house. We lived there a long time. Soon
appeared representatives . . . They were agitating. At first people would not
talk to them, and drove them off. One of the Armenian women shouted, "We
demand that Seidov come!" The response was, "It's Seidov who sent us." Seidov
is the Chairman of the Azerbaijani Council of Ministers. The woman said,
"We'll only see Seidov's daughter, have her come here, we'll do the same
things to her that they did to our daughters, and then we'll deal with you
agitators." And so on. More of them said, "Have Seidov himself come." This
went on day in, day out. The agitators kept coming and coming, this drove us
out of our wits. Then people gradually started departing for Yerevan because
they realized it was senseless to stay. Everything got on our nerves: The
smell, the small children. There were children at the SK club, children who
had literally just come out of the Maternity Home. What were they doing in a
club that didn't even have running water all the time? At first we had to pay
to eat there. They even overcharged us, as it turned out. On the second day
someone told us that they would bring us food for free. The children were ill.
Everything stank there. Well imagine about 3,000 people in a small movie
theater with seating for no more than 500. You couldn't sit or lie down, it
was impossible to even move. The stench was awful. Even the smallest infants
took ill overnight there. I heard that they were arriving seriously ill in
Yerevan, the infants. They have to be washed, they have to be bathed, not to
mention that we, the adults, were ill and needed care. People were fainting
right and left. I just don't know, everyone was crying, everyone . . . Only
the young people, the men, somehow managed to keep it together. But the women
were in a constant state of panic. It seemed to everyone that they would come
any minute and kill and stab. It seemed clear that we had been gathered
together purposely, like during the war, so that they could burn the movie
theater and there wouldn't be a single Armenian left. Then people went up to
the attic. I didn't see them, I only heard them, because I was lying down and
couldn't get up. I lay right on the stage, we had some room there. Apparently
they caught two people with either oil or gas. I think they wanted to burn the
theater. Maybe someone saw them, I didn't. I was in no condition to open my
eyes.
Everyone was suspicious of everyone else. They would ask, "Aren't you an
Azerbaijani? I think I saw you somewhere, I think you're an Azerbaijani." They
led out all the men and started letting them back in by checking their
passports, relatives might be covering for each other. Half of the people did
not have any documents. There were people who had run out of their homes in
nothing but a pair of pants and slippers, or wearing just a shirt, not like
they should have, with their IDs.
So on the 28th, on Sunday, I think, the police did nothing to help us. On
Monday everything resumed where it had left off on Block 41A. They didn't
spare a soul there: not children, not pregnant women, nobody. They killed,
they burned, they hacked with axes, just everything possible. They murdered
the Melkumian family whom I knew, my mother worked with them. Their daughter-
in-law went to school with my older sister. They were brutally murdered. Only
the two daughters-in-law survived. By a miracle one was able to save herself,
she ran away, the neighbors wouldn't take her in, so she ran about the
building until she found refuge. She was pregnant and had two small children.
This all continued on Monday in Block 41A, on the 29th, when the troops were
already in the city.
They murdered people, they overturned automobiles, and they burned entire
families. They say they didn't even know for sure if the people were Armenians
or not. I heard that the Lezgins suffered, too. I'm not sure myself, I didn't
see any Lezgins who had been injured. They burned cars so it's very difficult
now to say exactly who died and who didn't. It was very difficult to identify
the corpses, or rather, what remained of the corpses after they were doused in
gasoline and burned . . . it's all very hard to imagine, of course I heard
that many people disappeared without a trace, from the BTZ plant two people,
including a woman who worked the night shift, Aunt Razmella, who also lived in
Microdistrict 3.
They were stopping buses between Baku and Sumgait. In the evening people who
had been visiting Baku were returning to Sumgait, and people from Baku were
going home from Sumgait, and there were students, too. They were simply
savagely murdered. They were stopping the buses, the drivers immediately did
what they were told because there was just no other way to deal with that
hoard of brutally minded people. They stopped the buses, dragged the Armenians
out and killed them on the spot. I didn't see it myself, but I heard that they
put them all in a pile so as to burn them. Later it was hard to discern from
the corpses, well you can't call them corpses, you had to figure out from the
ashes who it was. l heard that two fellows saved two women, one a student, Ira
G., if I'm not mistaken. She was in the hospital a long time after that, and
she still can't figure out who saved her. She was also brutally raped and
beaten and thrown onto a pile of corpses. The fellow pulled her out of that
whole pile of corpses, put his coat on her, took her into his arms, and
carried her to the city. I still can't imagine how he managed to do that.
I heard that from Engels Grigorian. He knows her, apparently. Well a lot of
people went to that hospital anyway. She was in the hospital and singing a
song in Armenian, and they wrote the words down, and, I think he still has
that piece of paper, because he says that a lot of people now have that song,
the one she sang in the hospital where she lay in such bad shape. They
couldn't find the guy who saved her. He left her in someone's apartment and
called the ambulance, she was in such awful shape that, probably, like me,
she couldn't remember anyone's face.
I think that I knew one of the people who broke into our house, maybe I had
talked with him once. But I received so many blows everything was just knocked
out of my head. I can't remember to this day who he was. Then, it seems, I saw
the Secretary of the Directorate's Party organization, where Marina works. She
goes to school and works, she goes to night school at AZI, and works by day at
the Khimzashchita Construction and Installation Administration. I'm the
Secretary of the Komsomol organization at our administration and often met
with the secretaries of Party and Komsomol organizations. We had joint
meetings. I know them all, I've even talked with them, and he, I know, is from
Armenia. An Azerbaijani, but from Armenia. It became obvious that many of
those people were Azerbaijanis born in Armenia.
They took me to various police stations, to the police precinct, and to the
Procuracy, because the USSR Procuracy got involved in the case, and I iden-
tified the photographs of people who I could more or less recognize. They
showed me the people who were in our apartment, they're working on our
case, but I can't even recognize them, although it was proved that they were
the ones, they're processing it somehow. They tell me that they know that
someone held me by the arm and someone else held me by the leg when they were
dragging me. There was someone else in our apartment who did not even touch
me, he just stole a blanket and an earring or something like that. All these
people, all of them, as much as I've heard about them and seen them, they were
all from Kafan.
The Secretary of the Party organization is named Najaf, Najaf Rzayev. He was
there when everything started. It must have been him because I didn't
recognize anyone else in the crowd whom I knew besides him. All the more since
I told him, "Listen, you do something, because you know me." He turned away
and went toward the bedroom, where Marina was. Well you couldn't see Marina
anyway. There was such a noisy confusion of people that you couldn't make out
anyone. All of it flew right out of my head, and then gradually I became
myself again, at the City Party Committee . . . There were military people
there. I told them what went on, and they wrote it all down. I told them his
name. On March 8 the Secretary of our First Trust Party organization, the one
we're part of, came to see us, his name is Najaf Rzayev. I tell Mamma, "If
he's here despite the fact that I gave his name, it means that either his
alibi has been confirmed or, probably, that they think I'm crazy, not
responsible for my words." He said, "What did they do to you, how awful,
myself, I hid an Armenian family." Then after some time goes by he comes back
again and says something entirely different: "I wasn't at home, my family and
I went to Baku." I said, "Marina, what is he saying? He said something totally
different before." After that I didn't go to see our Procurator, our case is
being handled by a procurator from Voronezh, Fedorov by name. Fedorov told me
that Rzayev's case had just gotten to him, and there were so names involved.
What are they doing with Rzayev?
Did he prove his alibi or not? They just think that since I was hit in the
head I can't say anything for sure, whether it was him or not. It will be an
insult if he was in our apartment and doesn't have to pay for it, but at the
same time
I'm afraid to say I'm a hundred percent sure that it was he. Because no mat-
ter who I name, they tell me, no, you're wrong, he didn't do that, that one
wasn't there. All the faces have gotten mixed up in my mind. Who did what
exactly I can't say.
When they took me outside there was a whole crowd there, but I didn't see it,
because I had my eyes closed all the time. It seemed to me that I always got
it because of my eyes, people were always hassling me, for some reason it
always seemed to me that my eyes are responsible. When they were beating my
face I thought they were trying to put my eyes out. So I had my eyes closed,
they took me outside and started to beat me. A young guy, 22, held my arms, he
works at the BTZ plant. And right nearby, across the road from us, Block 41,
is where all this was going on. Right across the road from us. The BTZ
dormitory is over there, that's where he lives. Now he's in custody, they even
have proved, as far as I know, that it was he who killed Shurik Gambarian, the
clarinet player from the third entryway of our building. One person in our
building was killed, it was that man.
A guy comes by who shared a room with the guy who was holding me. He saw that
he was holding me by the arms and that he was beating me, but he didn't come
over, he just looked and then went into the dormitory. A while after it was
all over, people started making announcements in town saying that
investigators had been summoned. That guy went and told them everything. Now
they've caught him, everything's been proved. Now, evidently, they've been
beating him, I don't know what they're doing with them over there, but he
himself said that he was working the night shift at the plant. Some young guy
came to the plant and said, "Everyone who wants to kill Armenians come to the
bus station on Saturday at ten." That was it. He said, the ones who wanted to,
went. This was at the BTZ plant, during the night shift, probably, late Friday
night. It was at night, they were at the sauna together. And he said, what do
you mean, do you understand what you are saying? The others were silent,
probably, in their hearts they were thinking, I'm going to go. But they didn't
say anything to one another. He said that he thought it important to to go,
because he had heard a lot about what had happened in Kafan, that they had
killed their Azerbaijani sisters, their mothers, burned villages, and all of
that. That guy was also born in Kafan. That is certain. And Marina says that
the Secretary of the Party organization is from Armenia, too.                                                             from
I've participated in the investigation a couple of times. I'm satisfied with
them thus far. They summoned us and asked about what happened, and every word
I said was recorded. I met some guy there . . . By the way, he was an
Armenian. I said that he was in our apartment, but what he did, I don't know.
His last name was Grigorian, Eduard Grigorian. He s from Sumgait, from
Microdistrict 1. He was sentenced I think, to five years, not his first time.
His mother is Russian. I met with him at the KGB in Baku, at the Azerbaijani
KGB. They took us there and showed me photographs. There were so many
photographs, I think they even photographed those people who were caught at
curfew, and I've got them all confused. I say, the face was about like this,
the guy in the white coat with the red clasps. But he could take that coat off
and burn it somewhere, and it would be like looking for a needle in a
haystack. Well. This guy, Grigorian, I said, he was in our apartment, but he
is so light-complected that he looks like a Lezgin. I don't know what he did,
I can't remember. Maybe he beat me or raped me. But he was in our apartment.
At the KGB he started asking me, pleading with me, there's no need for this,
all this stuff, look me in the eyes, you're like a sister to me. I took a look
at him and thought, "My God, Heaven forbid that I should have a brother like
you." But they were satisfied with my responses, because I said everything
without great certainty. I was there with Mamma. Then Lyuda came in, but when
she came in she got sick immediately. She wanted to kill him, she crawled over
the table at him. She recognized him. When she came to, Lyuda was lying on the
balcony, the mob threw her there and all of them ran into the bedroom. We had
all kinds of boxes with dishes in them, the dowries for all three sisters.
They stole everything in the apartment, leaving only small things. At that
moment Lyuda came to and started remembering everything. Well, seeing the
faces, hearing the voices . . . Two people were saying they could burn the
apartment. Another says, why burn the apartment when I've got three kids and
no place to live. So this guy was in temporary housing, he didn't have
anywhere to live, he was from Sumgait. They were sure that they would get the
apartment. Besides, the neighbors were Azerbaijani. Why should they burn the
apartment, they might burn Azerbaijanis. That's what they said. How did they
know there were Azerbaijanis there, if they just picked a place, thinking that
Armenians lived there? We have a list of the residents for our part of the
building, our name is in there, but how could they know that Azerbaijanis
lived on the other side of the wall from us? So they didn't set fire to our
apartment.
I don't know, I was in such bad shape that if all of it had come to a halt
when I was outside, if someone had asked me what was happening, I would
have said that a civil war was going on. Well, maybe not civil . . . but
probably civil, because when they were beating me I opened my eyes and saw
that all the neighbors were standing on their balconies and watching, like at
a free horror film. So a civil war was going on, and only the Armenians were
being fought. If it were a world war or something like that, they would have
been fighting everyone. But they only fought us. Then I met some women from
our building, some Azerbaijanis. They are crying, they tell me, "Karina, we
saw all of it, how could it happen?" They're asking me! Well I just don't know
what to call it if a normal girl can stand there and watch what happened to
me. I think that if it were the other way around either I wouldn't have been
able to take it, or I would have tried to avert it, like that one Azerbaijani
woman did in front of our building. A woman lives there, an awful, dissipated
woman, if you can call her a woman, the dissipated life she leads. Two
Armenian families live there, in her part of the building. She came out on the
balcony and saw what was happening to me and started to scream and curse. She
came down to the entryway and said, "You'll come in this entryway over my dead
body." So not one of them took it in his head to go in that entryway. Some
folks were saying that those people were so out of control that they didn't
even know what they were doing. I don't think that's true. They knew very well
what they were doing if they didn't even lift a hand against that woman. They
couldn't have cared less about her, but the fact that she was an Azerbaijani
stopped them.
They were just beasts, they had smoked so much. When they came to our place
they were all chewing something. I noticed: Everyone who came into the
apartment was chewing something. I think, my God, maybe I just think that?
Maybe I'm losing my mind? But no, they're all chewing something. Maybe it is
some kind of drug, it must be, because . . . At first glance they all seemed
to be such normal people, young, clean-shaven, looking exactly as if they had
come to some sort of celebration. But they were shouting something. They
didn't talk, they shouted, as though there were deaf people there. They
screamed and screamed: "Yeah, killing, killing, we're killing the Armenians!"
Only they didn't shout "kill," they shouted "gurun ermianlary." Gurun
literally means "kill," or "destroy."
That's how it was! I'll continue. We hid in a captain's apartment, he's an
Azerbaijani, his wife is a Tatar. We were sitting in their apartment, their
kids were out in the yard. Their kids knew a whole lot. This was in our part
of the building, on the third floor. When Mamma came to and couldn't find
Lyuda she took Papa's hand, this was while the looters were stealing things,
but they didn't pay attention because they were stealing things. Apparently
they had already ceased killing and switched to stealing. Mamma found the
courage to . . .
A boy said to my mother "Where's the gold?" Mamma said he must have been 12
to 14 years old. He even looked Russian, he was so fair-skinned. But the
Azerbaijanis from Armenia are fair-skinned. I noticed they were all on the
fair side. He shouted, they were all smashing things, and he asks Mamma where
the gold is. We kept our gold in the wardrobe with our important papers. In a
little black bag, we kept everything in there. Mamma doesn't really like to
wear gold. She probably never even wore those things from the time they were
bought for her. They took everything that was lying on the cheval glass. Mamma
thinks that the gold saved us. Because they threw themselves at the gold, and
Mamma grabbed Papa, who was trying to breathe. They had closed his mouth,
bound his hands, and put a pillow and a chair on his face . . . They had
shoved something into his mouth so he would suffocate. Mamma grabbed him and
tore all that stuff off . . . He had something in his mouth, he was having
trouble breathing, his nose was filled with blood. Mamma grabbed him and
started running from the fifth down to the first floor because no one wanted
to open their doors to them. Mamma said that by accident, completely by
accident that person opened his door, he was sleeping, and said, half-awake,
"What's happened?" He sees that they are bloody. Mamma said, "At least go and
find out what's happening to my daughters, even if they've burned them or
murdered them, at least bring the corpses." He went looking for us. At that
moment Lyuda was under the bed. She says that after they left it seemed that
someone was calling her name. When he quietly called her she couldn't get out
from under the bed. She wanted to get out and was calling softly. She thought
she was shouting, but in fact she was either silent or was only talking to
herself, it just seemed to her that she was shouting. When she got out from
under the bed everyone was gone. And again . . . She thought that she had lost
her mind. I'll never leave here, never! To hell with it! It just seems that
way to me, I'll come to eventually. But then, when everything had settled
down, stopped, that mall brought Lyuda down, and Igor carried me in from
outside. Or first I was brought in, then Lyuda, I don't remember what order it
happened in.
And Mamma said, "Listen, they're all running around down there, shouting
something or other, and running toward the other building." It had more or
less calmed down where we were. Who's dead, who's alive, we don't know. I
tried to call my girlfriend. I had basically come to. Mamma says, "Listen;
let's go upstairs, at least get a mattress or something. We don't know how
long we'll be here. Maybe they didn't burn everything." I don't get it, all
women have that feeling, they want to get something from their homes, maybe
not everything was taken? I tell Mamma, "Mamma, what do you need any of that
for? To hell with it! We're alive, forget the rest of it, all of it!" She
says, "No, let's go get at least something. Maybe we'll leave here, spend the
night at someone else's." Mamma went upstairs, and their little boy, their son
Alik, was standing on the lookout. lIe was standing there to see if they were
coming. They only managed to run up there and grab something one time. He
shouts, "Come back, they're coming!" They didn't have enough time to get a
lot, mattresses from one apartment, a blanket from another . . . Mamma got my
knitting . . . Someone managed to grab our old things, the ones we never wore,
out of the hall . . . Someone took Father's old coveralls. The neighbor, his
wife, Mamma and Papa . . . Marina went with them. I was in no condition to
leave. Neither was Lyuda. We just sat. They ran out and we closed the door and
just then we hear that the mob is on its way toward our place upstairs,
they're dragging something again. They were going toward the other building,
maybe over by the school, or . . . There was an unfinished building over
there, people said they were going toward the basement or the unfinished
building, they could gradually carry everything over there. Then things more
or less calmed down. I tried to call my boss.
Later there was more noise. We were on the third floor, in a one-bedroom
apartment, and a woman lives in the one-bedroom place on the second floor,
Asya Dallakian. She's an old woman, retired. She wasn't at home, at that
time she was usually in the country, she has a married daughter there, and
her grandson is in the army. She is only very rarely in town; she gets her
retirement money and the apartment is essentially vacant. They started
pounding on her door and broke it down. She had two or three beds in there,
something like that, she's a 60-to 70-year-old woman who really does not even
live there. Probably she had some pots, a couple of metal bed frames and
mattresses, and a television. When her grandson came she bought a television.
They started wrecking everything. I started getting sick again. I think, "My
God, what is going on around here? When will this end?" We turned off the
lights and sat. As it turns out the people who weren't afraid, the ones who
knew what was going on, knew not to turn off the lights. We didn't know, but
they didn't come to where we were all the same. They all knew very well that
he was a captain. He went out and closed the door, and we sat in his
apartment. His last name was Kasumov. He's an exserviceman, retired, works up
at the fire station at some plant or other. He went out and stood at his door.
They tell him, "Comrade Captain, don't worry, we won't harm you, you're one of
us." He went upstairs, and they say, "Aren't you taking anything from this
apartment?" He says, "I don't need anything." And the women who were standing
in the yard . . . we have a basement, full of water . . . the women who were
standing in the yard saw. Those guys, they left everything they stole on the
first floor and ran upstairs again. The women threw everything they had time
to into the basement, to save our property. Some things were left: dirty
pillows, two or three other things and a rug. A guy came downstairs, really
mad, and he says, "Where's the rug? I just put it right here!" They tell him,
"Some guy came and took it and went off toward the school." He ran off in that
direction.
Oh! I forgot the most important point. When Igor picked me up in his arms,
there were women standing there who saw everything that was going on. They
just didn't tell me about it for a long time. The wife of that military man,
she didn't want to kill my spirit, I was already dead enough. Later she told
me, that after they murdered Uncle Shurik in the third entryway one of them,
the ringleader, apparently a young man, said, "Where's the girl who was here?"
And he became furious. The woman tells him, "She came to . . . " She didn't
know what to say: Think something up? Someone carried her off? Then they would
comb the whole house and find me and our whole family. So the woman says, "She
came to and went to the basement." Now, our basement is full of water. So the
whole mob dashes off to the basement to look for me or my corpse. They took
flashlights; they were up to their waists in water, water which had been
standing there for years, and soot, and fuel oil. They climbed down in there
to get me. Then one of them said, "There's so much water down there, she
probably walked and walked and then passed out and died. She met her death in
the basement. That's it, we can leave, no problem!" I didn't know that, and
when I was told, I felt worse. Two times worse. A lot worse! So they didn't
just want to pound me flat, something more awful was awaiting me . . .
After that we of course didn't want to live in Sumgait any longer. We really
didn't want to go back to our apartment. When we moved, I went up there and
started to quiver and shake all over, because I started remembering it all.
Although the neighbors all sobbed, it was all . . . so cheap . . . The people
who sat in their apartments and didn't help us at a time like that. I think
that they could have helped! I don't think that they were obligated to, but
they could have helped us! Because that one woman was able to stop that whole
brutal crowd by herself. That means they could have, too. It would have been
enough foe one man or women to say, What do you think you're doing?" That's
all! That would have done it. There were 60 apartments in our building. Not
one person said it! When I was lying on the ground and all those people were
standing on their balconies I didn't hear anyone's voice, no one said what are
you doing, leave her alone . . . Mamma even told one of the neighbor women
that if it had been an Azerbaijani woman in my place they would have dropped a
bomb if it would have killed even one Armenian. They would have stood up for
one of their own. True, they say that our neighbor from the fourth entryway,
an old/ sick woman tried to stop the pogrom. The Azerbaijanis have a custom:
if a woman takes her scarf and throws it on the ground, the men are supposed
to stop immediately. The old woman from the fourth entryway did that, but they
stomped her scarf into the ground, pushed her off to the side, and said, "If
you want to go on living, you'll disappear into your apartment." So she left.
That trick didn't work on them.
Even the neighbors who helped us move told me, OK, fine, calm down, forget
that it happened. I said I'd only forget it if I told them right then that it
had happened to their daughter--and if that didn't have any effect on them,
then I would forget everything, too. Imagine that it happened to your sister.
And no one did anything. Anything.
April 25, 1988
Yerevan
- - - reference - - -
[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 93-109
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!
Nntp-Posting-Host: tbilisi.src.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center
Lines: 25
In article <C5HuBA.CJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
>
>>You know when Israelis F16 (thanks to General Dynamics) fly high in the sky
>>and bomb the hell out of some village in Lebanon, where civilians including
>>babies and eldery getting killed, is that plain murder or what?
>
>If you Arabs wouldn't position guerilla bases in refugee camps, artillery
>batteries atop apartment buildings, and munitions dumps in hospitals, maybe
>civilians wouldn't get killed.  Kinda like Saddam Hussein putting civilians
>in a military bunker.
>
>Ed.
Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
the middle east!
I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 44
amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
>In article <C5HuBA.CJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
>>
>>>You know when Israelis F16 (thanks to General Dynamics) fly high in the sky
>>>and bomb the hell out of some village in Lebanon, where civilians including
>>>babies and eldery getting killed, is that plain murder or what?
>>
>>If you Arabs wouldn't position guerilla bases in refugee camps, artillery
>>batteries atop apartment buildings, and munitions dumps in hospitals, maybe
>>civilians wouldn't get killed.  Kinda like Saddam Hussein putting civilians
>>in a military bunker.
>>
>>Ed.
>Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
>are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
>are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
>bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
>very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
>policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
>the middle east!
What the hell do you know about Israeli policy?  What gives you the fiat
to look into the minds of Israeli generals?  Has this 'policy of intimidation'
been published somewhere?  For your information, the actions taken by Arabs,
specifically the PLO, were not uncommon in the Lebanon Campaign of 1982.  My
brain is full of shit?  At least I don't look into the minds of others and
make Israeli policy for them!
>I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
>Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
>I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.  We all suffer.  It's too bad that civilians get killed but
I will blame their Arab leaders who put them in positions of danger before I
will blame the Israelis.  Just like Palestinians who send their children into
warzones to throw rocks at armed Israeli soldiers.  What irresponsible parents!
As Golda Meir said, peace will only come when the Arabs start loving their
children more than they hate the Jews.
Ed.
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Lawsuit against ADL
Nntp-Posting-Host: gs135.sp.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 142
[It looks like Yigal has been busy...]
RTw  04/14 2155  JEWISH GROUP SUED FOR PASSING OFFICIAL INFORMATION
By Adrian Croft
SAN FRANCISCO, April 14, Reuter - Nineteen people, including the son of
former Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Arens, sued the Anti-Defamation League
(ADL) on Wednesday, accusing the Jewish group of disclosing confidential
official information about them.
Richard Hirschhaut, director of the San Francisco branch of the ADL, art
dealer Roy Bullock and former policeman Tom Gerard were also named as defendants
in the suit, filed in San Francisco County Superior Court.
The 19 accuse the ADL of B'nai B'rith, a group dedicated to fighting
anti-Semitism, and the other defendants of secretly gathering information on
them, including data from state and federal agencies.
The suit alleges they disclosed the information to others, including the
governments of Israel and South Africa, in what it alleges was a "a massive
spying operation."
The action is a class-action suit. It was filed on behalf of about 12,000
anti-apartheid activists or opponents of Israeli policies about whom the
plaintiffs believe the ADL, Bullock and Gerard gathered information.
Representatives of the ADL in San Francisco were not immediately available
for comment on Wednesday.
The civil suit is the first legal action arising out of allegations that
Gerard, a former inspector in the San Francisco police intelligence unit, passed
confidential police files on California political activists to a spy ring.
The FBI and San Francisco police are investigating the ADL, Bullock and
Gerard over the affair and last week searched the ADL's offices in San Francisco
and Los Angeles.
The suit alleges invasion of privacy under the Civil Code of California,
which prohibits the publication of information obtained from official sources.
It seeks exemplary damages of at least $2,500 per person as well as other
unspecified damages.
Lawyer Pete McCloskey, a former Congresmen who is representing the
plaintiffs, said the 19 plaintiffs included Arab-Americans and Jews -- and his
wife Helen, who also had information gathered about her.
One of the plaintiffs is Yigal Arens, a research scientist at the
University of Southern California who is a son of the former Israeli Defence
Minister.
Arens told the San Francisco Examiner he had seen a file the ADL kept on
him in the 1980s, presumably because of his criticism of the treatment of
Palestinians and his position on the Israeli-occupied territories.
According to court documents released last week, Bullock and Gerard both
kept information on thousands of California political activists.
In the documents, a police investigator said he believed the ADL paid
Bullock for many years to provide information and that both the league and
Bullock received confidential information from the authorities.
No criminal charges have yet been filed in the case. The ADL, Bullock and
Gerard have all denied any wrongdoing.
REUTER AC KG CM
APn  04/14 2202  ADL Lawsuit
Copyright, 1993. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
By CATALINA ORTIZ
Associated Press Writer
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Arab-Americans and critics of Israel sued the
Anti-Defamation League on Wednesday, saying it invaded their privacy by
illegally gathering information about them through a nationwide spy network.
The ADL, a national group dedicated to fighting anti-Semitism, intended to
use the data to discredit them because of their political views, according to
the class-action lawsuit filed in San Francisco Superior Court.
"None of us has been guilty of racism or Nazism or anti-Semitism or hate
crimes, or any of the other `isms' that the ADL claims to protect against. None
of us is violent or criminal in any way," said Carol El-Shaieb, an education
consultant who develops programs on Arab culture.
The 19 plaintiffs include Yigal Arens, son of former Israel Defense Minister
Moshe Arens. The younger Arens, a research scientist at the University of
Southern California, said the ADL kept a file on him in the 1980s presumably
because he has criticized Israel's treatment of Palestinians.
"The ADL believes that anyone who is an Arab American ... or speaks
politically against Israel is at least a closet anti-Semite," Arens said.
The ADL has denied any wrongdoing, but couldn't comment on the lawsuit
because it hasn't reviewed it, said a spokesman at the ADL's New York
headquarters.
The FBI and local police and prosecutors are investigating allegations that
the ADL spied on thousands of individuals and hundreds of groups, including
white supremacist and anti-Semitic organizations, Arab-Americans, Greenpeace,
the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and San Francisco
public television station KQED.
Some information allegedly came from confidential police and government
records, according to court documents filed in the probe and the civil lawsuit.
No charges have been filed in the criminal investigation.
The lawsuit accuses the ADL of violating California's privacy law, which
forbids the intentional disclosure of personal information "not otherwise
public" from state or federal records.
The lawsuit claims the ADL disclosed the information to "persons and
entities" who had no compelling need to receive it. It didn't elaborate.
Defendants include Richard Hirschhaut, director of the ADL's office in San
Francisco. He did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment.
Other defendants are San Francisco art dealer Roy Bullock, an alleged ADL
informant over the past four decades, and former police officer Tom Gerard.
Gerard allegedly tapped into law enforcement and government computers and passed
information on to Bullock.
Gerard, who has retired from the police force, has moved to the Philippines.
Bullock's lawyer, Richard Breakstone, said he could not comment on the lawsuit
because he had not yet studied it.
UPwe 04/14 1956  ADL sued for allegedly spying on U.S. residents
SAN FRANCISCO (UPI) -- A group of California residents filed suit Wednesday
charging the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith with violating their privacy
by spying on them for the Israeli and South African governments.
The class-action suit, filed in San Francisco Superior Court, charges the ADL
and its leadership conspired with a local police official to obtain information
on outspoken opponents of Israeli policies towards the Occupied Territories and
South Africa's apartheid policy.
The ADL refused to comment on the suit.
The suit also took aim at two top local ADL officials and retired San
Francicso police officer Tom Gerard, claiming they violated privacy guarantees
in the state constitution and violated state confidentiality laws.
According to the suit, Gerard helped the ADL obtain access to confidential
files in law enforcement and government computers. Information from these files
were passed to the foreign governments, the suit charges.
"The whole concept of an organized collection of information based on
political viewpoints and using government agencies as a source of information is
absolutely repugnant," said former Rep. Pete McCloskey, who is representing the
plaintiffs.
The ADL's information-gathering network was revealed publicly last week when
the San Francisco District Attorney's Office released documents indicating the
group had spied on 12,000 people and 500 political and ethnic groups for more
than 30 years.
"My understanding is that they (the ADL) consider all activity that is in
some sense opposed to Israel or Israeli action to be part of their responsbility
to investigate," said Arens, a research scientist at the University of Southern
California.
"The ADL believes that anyone who is Arab American...or speaks politically
against Israel is at least a closet anti-Semite."
The FBI and the District Attorney's Office have been investigating the
operation for four months.
The 19 plaintiffs in the case include Arens, the son of former Israeli
Defense Minister Moshe Arens.
In a press release, the plaintiffs said the alleged spying had damaged them
psychologically and economically and accused the ADL of trying to interfere with
their freedom of speech.
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Water on the brain (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Lines: 4
I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
--
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.15R
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
Subject: Rules of Engagement (was: 18 Israelis murdered in March
Distribution: world
Lines: 77
In <1993Apr8.212737.19245@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU wrote:
#
# In article <1993Apr8.143232@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
# |> In article <1993Apr6.150829.6425@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
# |> |> In article <FLAX.93Apr6125933@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
# |>
# |> |> |>    First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
# |> |> |>    in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
# |> |> |>    of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
# |> |> |>    revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
# |> |> |>    undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate.
# |>
# |> I'd like you to tell me, in your own words who the military are, wrt Israel then.
# |> In uniform, or not? On duty, or off-duty? Soldier to be, or not?
# |> (That is, since it's compulsory one might regard any Israeli as a
# |> legit target using that definition)
#
# in uniform or not ? doesnot make a difference if the person is in army.
# On duty, or off-duty? doesnot matter if the army man was on duty or on a
# vacation week.
# Soldier to be, or not? sure i meant only military men.
Just trying to get this clear, so please bear with me.  As far as
I can tell, you're proposing the following rules of engagement
between Israel and the Palestinean resistance.  Please feel
revise this preliminary draft as necessary:
1) Israeli military personnel are fair game at any time, in uniform
or out, on duty or off.  In practice, since any male or female
Israeli of military age (18-?) may be off-duty military, all but
young children are acceptable targets.  Since the existence of
Israel constitutes indication of hostile intent, no further
provocation is required.
2) To avoid inpermissable violations of the rights of non-combatant
Palestineans, Israeli forces must not engage Palestineans
without positive identification as military personnel, clear
indication of aggressive intent, and a clear field of fire.
a) Positive identification may be assured by either checking for
Palestinean military uniform, by posession of exclusively
military armament (ie, T78 MBTs or MiG-29 aircraft), or
self-identification (either verbal or documentary).  Note
that dual-use military/civilian weaponry such as hand grenades,
AK-47 rifles, and RPG launchers do not constitute positive
military identification and require closer inspection such
as document checks.
b) Aggressive intent (as distinct from merely 'hostile' intent,
which is the normal condition) may be assured by not less
than three rounds of incoming fire separated by intervals
of not less than ten seconds between rounds.  Note that a
single burst of automatic-weapon fire counds as one round,
as does a volley of rocket fire from more than one source.
As noted above, dual-use weaponry may NOT be assumed to
originate from military personnel, and thus do not justify
armed response.
c) A clear field of fire can be guaranteed by making a positive
military identification of all personnel in the target area of
the weapons to be used.  Note that aggressive intent need not
be proven for all possible targets.  Thus, if IAF aircraft
are attacked by a SAM crew it is not necessary to check the
papers of each crew member so long as none are obviously
civilians (as indicated, for instance, by the posession of
uniquely civilian weaponry such as stones, axes, and Molotov
coctails.)  Since it is often difficult for IAF elements to
land and make the necessary checks, ground forces should
first screen prospective strike areas before AGM fire.
For ACM purposes, a cockpit-to-cockpit pass within 5 meters
is usually sufficient for this purpose, but may be repeated
if necessary.
--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 57
In article <2528@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.002118.24102@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr12.184034.1370@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>
>>>IMHO, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within
>>>the Arabs/Isreal war context. The real question is who/what  started the
>>>War. Does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of Israel on Arab
>>>land ?
>
>>       Huh?  A war was started when several armies invaded Israel,
>>vowing to drive the Jews into the sea.  Most Jews wanted to live in
>>peace, and the Arabs who stayed in Israel were granted citizenship.
>
>It depends entirely on how you define 'war'. The actual fighting largely
>predates the Arab invasions - after all Deir Yassin happened in midApril
>well before the Arab invasion. As I have said elsewhere Lt Col Lorch has
>said that Hagana forces were fighting well before the Arabs invaded as in
>months before. As for Jews wanting to live in peace that to is entirely
>arguable. I think it is easy enough to show that the Labour party leadership
>had no such intention at all. As for the Arabs who 'stayed' don't you mean
>those who were not expelled? Even some of those who did 'stay' were not
>granted citizenship but expelled after the fighting had stopped anyway.
>
>Joseph Askew
>
How do you define war?  Do seiges and constant attacks on villiages
count as acts of war, or is that only when the Jews do them?
January, 1948: Arab Liberation Army attacks Kfar Szold
1000 men attack Kfar Etzion, 14 miles south of Jerusalem,
after cutting off the supply lines to it.
Attacks on Yehiam (Western Galilee) and kibbutz Tirat Tzvi.
By Mid-March, The Jewish settlements in the Negev had been cut off from
land links with the rest of the Jewish population.
The Etzion group of villiages, near Hebron, had been cut off,
while 42 members of a convoy trying to supply Yehiam were
slaughtered, cutting off the villiage.
Jerusalem was under seige, being cut off from its supply route from
Tel Aviv (the bombed out supply trucks have been left on the side
of that road to this day in memoriam).  By this time, 1200 Jews
had been killed.
Of course, this isn't war, since it's only the Arabs attacking.
Just like last week when the Fatah launched Katyusha rockets
against Northern israel.  Where does uprising end and war begin?
Will it still be 'Intifadah' when the PLO brings in tanks?
>--
>Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
>jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
>Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
>Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.
Amir
From: avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl (Avi Cohen Stuart)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!
Originator: avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl
Nntp-Posting-Host: duteinh.et.tudelft.nl
Organization: Delft University of Technology, Dept. of Electrical Engineering
Lines: 35
From article <1993Apr15.031349.21824@src.honeywell.com>, by amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi):
> In article <C5HuBA.CJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
>>
>>>You know when Israelis F16 (thanks to General Dynamics) fly high in the sky
>>>and bomb the hell out of some village in Lebanon, where civilians including
>>>babies and eldery getting killed, is that plain murder or what?
>>
>>If you Arabs wouldn't position guerilla bases in refugee camps, artillery
>>batteries atop apartment buildings, and munitions dumps in hospitals, maybe
>>civilians wouldn't get killed.  Kinda like Saddam Hussein putting civilians
>>in a military bunker.
>>
>>Ed.
>
> Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
> are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
> are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
> bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
> very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
> policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
> the middle east!
>
> I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
> Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
> I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.
Tell me then, would you also fight the Syrians in Lebanon?
Oh, no of course not. They would be your brothers and you would
tell that you invited them.
Avi.
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 50
In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>Lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an Israeli occupation
>patrol in Lebanese territory two days ago. Three soldiers were killed and
>two wounded. In "retaliation", Israeli and Israeli-backed forces wounded
>8 civilians by bombarding several Lebanese villages. Ironically, the Israeli
>government justifies its occupation in Lebanon by claiming that it is
>necessary to prevent such bombardments of Israeli villages!!
>
>Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
>Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
>bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
>government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.
>
>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Ahhh, of course. Israeli morality pales in the face of charming events
like the string of PLO-run skyjackings in the mid 80's (remember those
TWA jokes?), and not to forget the Achille Lauro and however many airline
bombings they have committed, not to mention bombings on the streets of
Israel (It's gotten to a point where children are told not to go near any
bags or containers whose origins they don't know, because they could be
bombs), or last weeks Katyusha rocket attack on Northern Israel by Fatah,
those wonderful "mainstream moderates" with whom Israel is attempting
to negotiate.
Let's not forget the fact that more Palestinians are killed by Palestinians
than by Israelis.  Ahh yes, those charming humanitarian death squads.
I've actually seen a videotape of an interrogation (DSee the documentary
_Deadly Currents_--very neutral and balanced--seriously)--It was rather
inquisition-esque. essentially, to prove his loyalty to "the cause" of
whichever group it was that was interogating him, he had to turn in someone
else, or else face death in one of the many fun-filled ways that the death-
squads love so much--beatings, dismemberment, acid, pouring melted plastic
on the face of the 'guilty party,' and of course beheading, always my
favorite.  Did you catch the photos in the Washington Post a while back
the execution of a "collaborator?"  3 photos:
1) one Palestinian leading another at gunpoint.
2) The "collaborator" on his knees, the gun pointed at his temple.
3) The executioner standing on the corpse of the "collaborator
shouting about how this is what happens to collaborators.
Wonderful justice system, and lots of regard for Human rights.
Remember Black September?
Ok, so they just tried to take over Jordan, big deal.
I'm rambling now, but are you getting what I'm saying?
Amir
Subject: Re: Enough Freeman Bashing!  Was: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freemanwith blood greetings from Israel
From: mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi)
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services
Lines: 16
pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:
Peter,
I believe this is your most succinct post to date. Since you have nothing
to say, you say nothing! It's brilliant. Did you think of this all by
yourself?
-marc
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
both eyes.
My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
______________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death
From: mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi)
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services
Lines: 30
>  Brad Hernlem writes...
> >
> >Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
> >Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
> >bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
> >government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.
> >
> >Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
To which Mark Ira Kaufman responds:
>
>     Your delight in the death of human beings says more about you
>     than anything that I could say.
Mark,
Were you one of the millions of Americans cheering the slaughter of Iraqi
civilians by US forces in 1991? Your comment could also apply to all of
them. (By the way, I do not applaud the killing of _any_ human being,
including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department)
Peace.
-marc
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
both eyes.
My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
______________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!
From: mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi)
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services
Lines: 43
stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
> Even the most extemist, one sided (jewish/israeli) postings (with which I
> certainly disagree), did not openly back plain murder. You do.
>
> The 'Lebanese resistance' you are talking about is a bunch of lebanese
> farmers who detonate bombs after work, or is an organized entity of not-
> only-lebanese well trained mercenaries ? I do not know, just curious.
>
> I guess you also back the killings of hundreds of marines in Beirut, right?
>
> What kind of 'resistance' movement killed jewish attlets in Munich 1972 ?
>
> You liked it, didn't you ?
>
>
> You posted some other garbage before, so at least you seem to be consistent.
>
> Dorin
Dorin,
Let's not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered. The
distinction is not trivial. Murder happens to innocent people, not people
whose line of work is to kill or be killed. It just so happened that these
soldiers, in the line of duty, were killed by the opposition. And
resistance is different from terrorism. Certainly the athletes in Munich
were victims of terrorists (though some might call them freedom fighters).
Their deaths cannot be compared to those of soldiers who are killed by
resistance fighters. Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
hostile occupiers in WWII. Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the
Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
out the US)
-marc
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
both eyes.
My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
______________________________________________________________________________
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: RE: was:Go Hezbollah!
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Lines: 68
hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>I just thought that I would make it clear, in case you are not familiar with
>my past postings on this subject; I do not condone attacks on civilians.
>Hezbollah and other Lebanese Resistance fighters are skilled at precision
>bombing of SLA and Israeli targets. I find such methods to be far more
>restrained and responsible than the Israeli method of shelling and bombing
>villages with the hope that a Hezbollah member will be killed along with
>the civilians murdered. I do not consider the killing of combatants to be
>murder. Soldiers are trained to die for their country. Three IDF soldiers
>did their duty the other day. These men need not have died if their government
>had kept them on Israeli soil.
Is there any Israeli a civilian, in your opinion ?
Now, I do not condone myself bombing villages, any kind of villages.
But you claim these are villages with civilians, and Iraelis claim they are
camps filled with terrorists. You claim that israelis shell the villages with the
'hope' of finding a terrorist or so. If they kill one, fine, if not, too bad,
civilians die, right ? I am not so sure.
As somebody wrote, Saddam Hussein had no problems using civilians in disgusting
manner. And he also claimed 'civilians murdered'. Let me ask you, isn't there
at least a slight chance that you (not only, and the question is very general,
no insult) are doing a similar type of propaganda in respect to civilians in
southern Lebanon ?
Now, a lot people who post here consider 'Israeli soil' kind of Mediteranean sea.
How do you define Israeli soil ? From what you say, if you do not clearly
recognize the state of Israel, you condone killing israelis anywhere.
>Dorin, are you aware that the IDF sent helicopters and gun-boats up the
>coast of Lebanon the other day and rocketted a Palestinian refugee north of
>Beirut. Perhaps I should ask YOU "what qualifies a person for murder?":
I do not know what was the pupose of the action you describe. If it was
to kill civilians (I doubt), I certainly DO NOT CONDONE IT. If civilians were
killed, i do not condone it.
>That they are Palestinian?
>That they are children and may grow up to be "terrorists"?
>That they are female and may give birth to little terrorists?
>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Mr. Hernlem, it was YOU, not ME, who was showing a huge satisfaction for 3
israelis (human beings by most standards, Don't know about your standards) killed.
If you ask me those questions, I will have no problem answering (not with a
question, as you did) : No, NOBODY is qualified candidate for murder, nothing
justifies murder. I have the feeling that you may be able yourself to make
similar statements, maybe after eliminating all Israelis, jews, ? Am I wrong ?
Now tell me, did you also condone Saddam's scuds on israeli 'soldiers' in, let's
say, Tel Aviv ? From what I understand, a lot of palestineans cheered. What does
it show? It does not qualify for freedom fighting to me ? But again, I may be
wrong, and the jewish controlled media distorted the information, and I am just
an ignorant victim of the media, like most of us.
Dorin
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!
Nntp-Posting-Host: tbilisi.src.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center
Lines: 26
In article <C5IFH7.3q4@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>
>What the hell do you know about Israeli policy?  What gives you the fiat
>to look into the minds of Israeli generals?  Has this 'policy of intimidation'
>been published somewhere?  For your information, the actions taken by Arabs,
>specifically the PLO, were not uncommon in the Lebanon Campaign of 1982.  My
>brain is full of shit?  At least I don't look into the minds of others and
>make Israeli policy for them!
>
... deleted
I am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not
be necessary.  Israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across
as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the Arabs.
The way I see it, Israelis and Arabs have not been able to achieve peace
after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:
1) Arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently
most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or
dictators.
2) Israeli government is arrogant and none comprising.
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Heil Hernlem
In-Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu's message of Wed, 14 Apr 1993 12:58:13 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Brown University
Lines: 24
In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
Lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an Israeli occupation
patrol in Lebanese territory two days ago. Three soldiers were killed and
two wounded. In "retaliation", Israeli and Israeli-backed forces wounded
8 civilians by bombarding several Lebanese villages. Ironically, the Israeli
government justifies its occupation in Lebanon by claiming that it is
necessary to prevent such bombardments of Israeli villages!!
Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.
Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Very nice. Three people are murdered, and Bradly is overjoyed. When I
hear about deaths in the middle east, be it Jewish or Arab deaths, I
feel sadness, and only hope that soon this all stops. Apparently, my
view point is not acceptable to people like you Bradly.
Hernlem, you disgust me.
Harry.
From: mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Nntp-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Lines: 63
From article <1993Apr15.092101@IASTATE.EDU>, by tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan):
> Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
> who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
> believe for somebody trying to be objective.
> When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
> blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
> What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
> Do you think it was your right to be there?
There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor until 1923.
Someone had to protect them. If not us who??
> I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
> not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
> It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
> I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
> visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
> was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
>
Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of
Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.
There are some things on which there can not be a compromise.
> The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
> people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
> because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
> not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals
> why the hatred?
Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment directly or
indirecly is a "bad" person.
It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support of the
actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
as a such you must pay the price.
> So that makes me think that there is some kind of
> brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person
> treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your
> history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
> encounters during your schooling.
> take it easy!
>
> --
> Tankut Atan
> tankut@iastate.edu
>
> "Achtung, baby!"
You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks. Just talk to
Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under
Turkish occupation.
They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.
You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about them from
people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.
Napoleon
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Reasons : was Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Lines: 35
Hossien Amehdi writes:
>I am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not
>be necessary.  Israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across
>as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the Arabs.
>The way I see it, Israelis and Arabs have not been able to achieve peace
>after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:.
> 1) Arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently
>   most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or
>    dictators.
> 2) Israeli government is arrogant and none comprising.
It's not relevant whether I agree with you or not, there is some reasonable
thought in what you say here an I appreciate your point. However, I would make 2
remarks:
- you forgot about hate, and this is not only at government level.
- It's not only 'arab' governments.
Now, about taugh talk and arrogance, we are adults, aren't we ? Do you listen
to tough talk of american politicians ? or switch  the channel ?
I would rather be 'intimidated' by some dummy 'talking tough' then by a
bomb ready to blow under my seat in B747.
Dorin
From: ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL SOKOL)
Subject: Re: Enough Freeman Bashing!  Was: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freemanwith blood greetings from Israel
Nntp-Posting-Host: amhux3.amherst.edu
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Lines: 47
Marc A Afifi (mafifi@eis.calstate.edu) wrote:
> pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:
>
>
> Peter,
>
> I believe this is your most succinct post to date. Since you have nothing
> to say, you say nothing! It's brilliant. Did you think of this all by
> yourself?
>
> -marc
> --
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
> both eyes.
> My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
> ______________________________________________________________________________
An open letter to Marc Afifi
Dear Marc,
I believe that you are wrong about Mr. Freeman.  He has written in
a style that raises the level of posts on this board.  If you just don't seem
to get it, I believe that it is more of a reflection of you and your abilities
than of him.  His posts contain substance and and he defends his positions
well.
Having said this, I would like to ask in general for people on this
board to realize that if they don't agree with the substance of posts, then they should respond to the substance (or lack of) of the posts rather than attack
the author of the posts.  When one has to resort to attacking a poster rather than what he/she has written, one can see that that person does not have the
ability to make a coherent argument concerning the post.
Peace,
Danny
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Mossad unchecked - Girls faint in masse in Egypt
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: world
Lines: 31
In <1993Apr13.145325.15806@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:
>In article <eldar.734672326@sfu.ca>, eldar@fraser.sfu.ca (Danny Eldar) writes:
>|>
>|> I just heard it on the radio: CKNW in Vancouver, BC.  Girls are fainting in
>|> masse in Egypt.  Nobody knows why, but the movement started in Nothern Egypt
>|> and spread throught all Egypt.
>|>
>|>
>|> I think that the MOSSAD, after the "obvious" involvement in WTC bombing,
>|> tries to reestablish its reputation.  What better way than making Egyptian
>|> schhol-girls go bezerk.
>|>
>|> Maybe Hassan will share the light on this.
>I am happy to annouce TII's second positive identifiaction.
>Congragulations Danny.
>Hasan
As one who was born in Quebec and worked in Montreal, I feel I must
defend the reputation of McGill University. It is a fine, old,
creditable institution of higher learning.
Thus, I can only assume that some under graduate student left his/her
terminal on-line and the janitor has been getting access to it.
REB
wiscon.weizmann.ac.il!jhsegal
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?
From: jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Livian Segal)
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center
Lines: 130
Well,I tried not to get involved in this never ending talk,but,man,I REALLY got
hot about this bullshit.
In article <1993Apr13.164305.701@bernina.ethz.ch> nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch writes:
>Hakim Abu Ahmed (cu304@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
>
>: in-reply-to: hm@cs.brown.edu's message
>: >   zbib@bnr.ca (Sam Zbib) writes:
>
>: >   steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel) writes:
>: >   |> Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
>: >   |>    take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>: >   |>
>: >   |> A: Four
>: >   |>
>: >   |> Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>: >   |> and one writes up a false report.
>: >   |>
Making stupid and idiot jokes about soliders will not bring anything (not
mentioning peace or agreement). I also know several tens of jokes about arabs
(palestinians) but I DO NOT post them to Usenet (Anyway,not to THIS newsgroup),
since I don't think I will achieve any target but making other parts furious,and
this is NOT my target.
If this is your target...well...that tells a lot about you.
>: >Can Nick Steel provide documentation for this alleged incident ?
Did you really think he is talking about something realistic?
>
>: >Harry.
>
>: You must be kidding ,this is not a single incident
>: now. This has become a daily life practice in Gazza
>: if you mean the killing of children by armed soldiers.
Yeah,well,sometimes,when cowards put their children and wives in the front line,
so their enemy cannot do anything,well,maybe in those cases,you have no better
thing to do (to save your life) than shooting. And if parents want their
children alive,I think it would be better that before they get out to throw
stones/molotov botlles,or when they come to kill soliders,to keep their children
in the houses.
>: If you are objecting the number of occupying israeli
>:  soldiers (terrorists) or  the way they do it , then
^^^^^^^^^^^^----\/
Look in the dictionary at the word "terrorism"! It
says: (nu) the use of threats of violence,and violence
esp for political purposes.
It sounds more like your guys...
>: I caan assure you that they do worse than that. Just as
Yeah? Well,I guess you were in there,and you know it all...
>: example  11 children were killed this month of Ramadhan
>: two of them by military vehicules.  An other similar
>: incident by vehicule was the one of 25 Feb (4 Ramadhan)
>: where thee military truck on purpose hit a passenger
^^^^^^^^^^---\/
Where from do you know that it was "on purpose"?
Personally,I didn't hear about this case,although
I don't deny it.But how can ANYBODY,besides the
person itself,can say it was "on purpose"?
>: car where the victims were a 5 year girl Safa Sail
>: Bisharat
>: and Saamud Riyad a 2 weeks old babygirl.( + the 23
>: oldd Raajij Rouhy)
Yeah,sure.The truck driver looked in the car with his Zionist Equipment of
Detecting Palestinian Children,and then he thought to himself:Hey there is a
5 year  and 2 weeks girls in the car.Why won't I make an accident and kill
the "enemy"? Maximum I will die too in the crash...But what do I care?...
>: --
>: Hakim.
>
>Actually, if can remember correctly, was it not reported and even on camera
>some time during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, or when the itifada began,
>that CNN caught regular uniformed Israeli soldiers breaking the arms of
>some Arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner, (someone
>please give full details if they can remember). This is one of the few
Well,It was about 3 years ago ,in the Intifada (The fact that  you can't
remember the time prooves how much do you care about it). I DO NOT think
that what the soliders did was correct. But I will not agree that they "were
breaking their arms".I saw that film,and,unlike in the USA,it was broadcasted
entirely not long ago (in a talk show) and at the end the "arm-broken" guys got
up and walked and used their arms very good. They guy who did it was interviewed
and he said he did it because the terrorist or whatever he was refused to take
his orders,and spitted in his face. What ammount of truth exist in this
statement I cannot tell you,because I wasn't there. But the guy who did it was
in prison,if it makes you any good.
>occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the West and
>in the USA ... it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly
>changed the preception of the Israeli army's role in the mid-east.
No,it didn't. The Israeli army is still the most important army in the midlle
east.It is still the only human army(as much as an ARMY can be human).To any
American who will claim the opposite,I can only remember the CNN broadcasting
of the American Solider who beat a Somalian boy. It was very cruel to see.But
I won't say because of this that the American army is cruel.
>
>So there is proof for you! It is obvious that is a systematic policy of the
>Israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes.
Some kind of proof! "Obvious"? Where from? If you say it is behind the scenes,
how do you know about it?
>
>Nadeem
>
I just wanted to show how much garbadge one can say,without knowing ANYTHING
about what he says,and living a life far away from the place he talks about.
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VM/CMS: JhsegalL@Weizmann.weizmann.ac.il UNIX: Jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Article-I.D.: news.C5Jowp.KJG
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 58
<FINAID2@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>                  Mr. Tamamidis:
>Before repling your claims, I suggest you be kind to individuals
>who are trying to make some points abouts human rights, discriminations,
>and unequal treatment of Turkish minority in GREECE.I want the World
>know how bad you treat these people. You will deny anything I say but
>It does not make any difrence because I will write things that I saw with
>my eyes.You prove yourself prejudice by saying free insurance, school
>etc. Do you Greeks only give these things to Turkish minority or
>everybody has rights to get them.Your words even discriminate
>these people. You think that you are giving big favor to these
>people by giving these thing that in reality they get nothing.
No. I do not thing we are doing them a favor.  I have simply stated that
they are not treated as a second class citizens. That was my point.
I fail to see how my words show discrimination. And what do you mean that
they do not get nothing? Is, for example, helth insurance, food, and tuition
nothing?
>If you do not know unhuman practices that are being conducted
>by the Government of the Greece, I suggest that you investigate
>to see the facts. Then, we can discuss about the most basic
>human rights like fredom of religion, fredom of press of Turkish
>minority, ethnic cleansing of all Turks in Greece,fredom of
>right to have property without government intervention,
>fredom of right to vote to choose your community leaders,
>how Greek Government encourages people to destroy
>religious places, houses, farms, schools for Turkish minority then
>forcing them to go to turkey without anything with them.
I'm sorry, but I cannot see any logical order in the above argument.
>Before I conclude my writing, let me point out how Greeks are
>treated in Turkey. We do not consider them Greek minority, instead
>we consider a part of our society.
What part exactly is this one? The people cannot even sell their property
if they want to leave Turkey.  The patriarch could not get a permision to
renovate some buildings for decades; it needed a special agreement between
the two goverments for this. Talk about a part of the society? Why has the
size of the Greek community reduced to 1,500 old people and priests then?
>There is no difference among people in Turkey.
Yeah, you bet.
>All big businesses
>belong to Greeks in Turkey and we are proud to have them.unlike the
>Greece which tries to destroy Turkish minority, We encourage all
>minorities in Turkey to be a part of Turkish society.
You are far off from the reality.
>Aykut Atalay Atakan
Panos Tamamidis
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Turkish Government Agents on UseNet Lie Through Their Teeth!
Article-I.D.: urartu.1993Apr15.204512.11971
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 63
In revision of history <9304131827@zuma.UUCP> as posted by Turkish Government
Agents under the guise of sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) LIE in response to
article <1993Apr13.033213.4148@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org and
scribed:
[(*]    Orhan Gunduz is blown up. Gunduz receives an ultimatum: Either
[(*]    he gives up his honorary position or he will be "executed". He
[(*]    refuses. "Responsibility" is claimed by JCAG and SDPA.
[(*]    May 4, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
[(*]	Orhan Gunduz, the Turkish honorary consul in Boston, would not bow
[(*]	to the Armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of
[(*]	"honorary consul". Now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood.
[(*]	President Reagan orders an all-out manhunt-to no avail. An eye-
[(*]	witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down.  He
[(*]	survives... but falls silent. One of the most revolting "triumphs" in
[(*]	the senseless, mindless history of Armenian terrorism. Such a murder
[(*]	brings absolutely nothing - except an ego boost for the murderer
[(*]	within the Armenian terrorist underworld, which is already wallowing
[(*]	in self-satisfaction.
[(*]
[(*]    Were you involved in the murder of Sarik Ariyak?
[(*]   	December 17, 1980 - Sydney
[(*]	Two Nazi Armenians massacre Sarik Ariyak and his bodyguard, Engin
[(*]    Sever. JCAG and SDPA claim responsibility.
Mr. Turkish Governmental Agent: prove that the SDPA even existed in 1980 or
1982! Go ahead, provide us the newspaper accounts of the assassinations and
show us the letters SDPA! The Turkish government is good at excising text from
their references, let's see how good thay are at adding text to verifiable
newspaper accounts!
The Turkish government can't support any of their anti-Armenian claims as
typified in the above scribed garbage! That government continues to make
false and libelous charges for they have no recourse left after having made
fools out of through their attempt at a systematic campaign at denying and
covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians.
Just like a dog barking at a moving bus, it barks, jumps, yells, until the
bus stops, at which point it just walks away! Such will be with this posting!
Turkish agents level the most ridiculous charges, and when brought to answer,
they are silent, like the dog after the bus stops!
The Turkish government feels it can funnel a heightened state of ultra-
nationalism existing in Turkey today onto UseNet and convince people via its
revisionist, myopic, and incidental view of themselves and their place in the
world.
The resulting inability to address Armenian and Greek refutations of Turkey`s
re-write of history is to refer to me as a terrorist, and worse, claim --
as part of the record -- I took responsibility for the murder of 2 people!
What a pack of raging fools, blinded by anti-Armenian fascism. It's too bad
the socialization policies of the Republic of Turkey requires it to always
find non-Turks to de-humanize! Such will be their downfall!
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Article-I.D.: vein.MUCIT.93Apr15173530
<1993Apr14.064421.27655@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>
<93104.141046FINAID5@auvm.american.edu> <C5I1B6.HIv@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
<1993Apr14.211615@IASTATE.EDU> <C5IF8u.3Ky@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
<1993Apr15.092101@IASTATE.EDU> <C5JH
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Rochester
Lines: 27
In-Reply-To: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu's message of Thu, 15 Apr 1993 19:16:16 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: vein.cs.rochester.edu
In article <C5JHJ4.F4J@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>>I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
>>not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
>>It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
>>I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
>>visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
>>was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
>
> I thought it was a smart move to receive more money from Greek tourists.
> I bet that this week there should be about 200,000 tourists from Greece
> in Turkey.  Each one will leave at least $1,000 so go and figure what this
> means to your economy.  If you had kept the visa requirement, how many
> Greeks would bother to visit Turkey?
Smart indeed.  If what you're saying is true, Greeks who visit are happy,
the Turkish merchants are happy; who is harmed?  No one.  So not only was
it a smart move, it was also a good move for it adds to the happiness of
200.000 Greeks per week and however many Turkish merchants they interact with.
One simple move in the paperwork arena -> lotsa happy people of both
nationalities.  Just and observation.
cheers,
BM
[stuff deleted]
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?
From: jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Livian Segal)
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center
Lines: 16
In article <1qhv50$222@bagel.cs.huji.ac.il> ranen@falafel.cs.huji.ac.il (Ranen Goren) writes:
>Q: How many Nick Steel's does it take to twist any truth around?
>A: Only one, and thank God there's only one.
>
>	Ranen.
Absolutely not true!
There are lots of them!
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From: jamshid@cgl.ucsf.edu (J. Naghizadeh)
Subject: PR Campaign Against Iran (PBS Frontline)
Organization: Computer Graphics Laboratory, UCSF
Lines: 51
Originator: jamshid@socrates.ucsf.edu
There have been a number of articles on the PBS frontline program
about Iranian bomb. Here is my $0.02 on this and related subjects.
One is curious to know the real reasons behind this and related
public relations campaign about Iran in recent months. These include:
1) Attempts to implicate Iran in the bombing of the New York Trade
Center. Despite great efforts in this direction they have not
succeeded in this. They, however, have indirectly created
the impression that Iran is behind the rise of fundamentalist
Islamic movements and thus are indirectly implicated in this matter.
2) Public statements by the Secretary of State Christoffer and
other official sources regarding Iran being a terrorist and
outlaw state.
3) And finally the recent broadcast of the Frontline program. I
suspect that this PR campaign against Iran will continue and
perhaps intensify.
Why this increased pressure on Iran? A number of factors may have
been behind this. These include:
1) The rise of Islamic movements in North-Africa and radical
Hamas movement in the Israeli occupied territories. This
movement is basically anti-western and is not necessarily
fueled by Iran. The cause for accelerated pace of this
movement is probably the Gulf War which sought to return
colonial Shieks and Amirs to their throne in the name of
democracy and freedom. Also, the obvious support of Algerian
military coup against the democratically elected Algerian
Islamic Front which clearly exposed the democracy myth.
A further cause of this may be the daily broadcast of the news
on the slaughter of Bosnian Moslems.
2) Possible future implications of this movement in Saudi Arabia
and other US client states and endangerment of the cheap oil
sources from this region.
3) A need to create an enemy as an excuse for huge defense
expenditures. This has become necessary after the demise of
Soveit Union.
The recent PR campaign against Iran, however, seems to be directed
from Israel rather than Washington. There is no fundamental conflict
of interest between Iran and the US and in my opinion, it is in the
interest of both countries to affect reestablishment of normal
and friendly relations. This may have a moderating effect on the
rise of radical movements within the Islamic world and Iran .
--jamshid
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust
Reply-To: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Organization: The National Capital Freenet
Lines: 24
In a previous article, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (M. Hasan AlHafez) says:
>So the wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968 (Karama), 1978, and 1982 were
>all started by Arabs.
The wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1978 were definitely started by the Arabs.
The war in 1982 was instigated by the Arabs who continually murdered
Israeli children with their rocket attacks.  Israel was only trying to
stop this.
Last what the heck are you talking about with "1968 (Karama)"?  There was
no war in 1968!
Steve
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust
Reply-To: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Organization: The National Capital Freenet
Lines: 24
In a previous article, zbib@bnr.ca (Sam Zbib) says:
>IMHO, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within
>the Arabs/Isreal war context. The real question is who/what  started the
>War. Does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of Israel on Arab
>land ?
Where the hell do you get off calling it "Arab land"?  Jews have been
living there for a long time.  Jews didn't just start arriving in 1900,
they've been living there for thousands of years, except for periods when
they were expelled but they always returned home.
Steve
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Dir Yassin (was Re: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freeman, with blood greetings from Israel)
In-Reply-To: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 's message of Tue, 13 Apr 93 14:15:18 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Brown University
Lines: 85
In article <1993Apr13.141518.13900@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
CHECK MENAHEM BEGIN DAIRIES (published book) you'll find accounts of the
massacres there including Deir Yassen,
though with the numbers of massacred men, children and women are
greatly minimized.
As per request of Hasan:
From _The Revolt_, by Menachem Begin, Dell Publishing, NY, 1977:
[pp. 225-227]
"Apart from the military aspect, there is a moral aspect to the
story of Dir Yassin. At that village, whose name was publicized
throughout the world, both sides suffered heavy casualties. We had
four killed and nearly forty wounded. The number of casualties was
nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers. The Arab
troops suffered casualties neraly three times as heavy. The fighting
was thus very severe. Yet the hostile propaganda, disseminated
throughout the world, deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian
population of Dir Yassin was actually given a warning by us before the
battle began. One of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed
at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in Arabic all women,
children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the
slopes of the hill.  By giving this humane warning our fighters threw
away the element of complete surprise, and thus increased their own
risk in the ensuing battle. A substantial number of the inhabitants
obeyed the warning and they were unhurt. A few did not leave their
stone houses - perhaps because of the confusion. The fire of the enemy
was murderous - to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent
testimony. Our men were compelled to fight for every house; to
overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades. And the
civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable
casualties.
"The education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of
revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war. We
never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us, in
accordance with the accepted custom of war, to apply reprisals. I am
convinced, too, that our officers and men wished to avoid a single
unnecessary casualty in the Dir Yassin battle. But those who throw
stones of denunciation at the conquerors of Dir Yassin [1] would do
well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy [2].
"In connection with the capture of Dir Yassin the Jewish Agency
found it necessary to send a letter of apology to Abdullah, whom Mr.
Ben Gurion, at a moment of great political emotion, called 'the wise
ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country.' The 'wise
ruler,' whose mercenary forces demolished Gush Etzion and flung the
bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey, replied with feudal
superciliousness. He rejected the apology and replied that the Jews
were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of
'dissidents.' Throughout the Arab world and the world at large a wave
of lying propaganda was let loose about 'Jewish attrocities.'
"The enemy propaganda was designed to besmirch our name. In the
result it helped us. Panic overwhelmed the Arabs of Eretz Israel.
Kolonia village, which had previously repulsed every attack of the
Haganah, was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting.
Beit-Iksa was also evacuated. These two places overlooked the main
road; and their fall, together with the capture of Kastel by the
Haganah, made it possible to keep open the road to Jerusalem. In the
rest of the country, too, the Arabs began to flee in terror, even
before they clashed with Jewish forces. Not what happened at Dir
Yassin, but what was invented about Dir Yassin, helped to carve the
way to our decisive victories on the battlefield. The legend of Dir
Yassin helped us in particular in the saving of Tiberias and the
conquest of Haifa."
[1] (A footnote from _The Revolt_, pp.226-7.) "To counteract the loss
of Dir yassin, a village of strategic importance, Arab headquarters at
Ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story, alleging a massacre by
Irgun troops of women and children in the village. Certain Jewish
officials, fearing the Irgun men as political rivals, seized upon this
Arab gruel propaganda to smear the Irgun. An eminent Rabbi was induced
to reprimand the Irgun before he had time to sift the truth. Out of
evil, however, good came. This Arab propaganda spread a legend of
terror amongst Arabs and Arab troops, who were seized with panic at
the mention of Irgun soldiers. The legend was worth half a dozen
battalions to the forces of Israel. The `Dir Yassin Massacre' lie
is still propagated by Jew-haters all over the world."
[2] In reference to denunciation of Dir Yassin by fellow Jews.
From: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman)
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. Madness.
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 8
This post has all the earmarks of a form program, where the user types in
a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story.
If this is true, I condemn it. If it's a fabrication, then the posters have
horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth.
Jesse
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Center for Anit-Israel Propaganda
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 67
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
the 'Center for Policy Research' writes...
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS
>
>Hadashot, 14 March 1993:
>
>The Israeli Police Department announced on the evening of Friday,
>March 12 that it is calling upon [Jewish] Israeli citizens with
>gun permits to carry them at all times "so as to contribute to
>their security and that of their surroundings".
Considering all the murders of innocent Israelis at the hands
of Arab death merchants, I see nothing wrong with the advice.
>Ha'aretz, 15 March 1993:
>
>Yehoshua Matza (Likud), Chair of the Knesset Interior Committee,
>stated that he intends to demand that the police department make
>it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills
>[non-Jewish] terrorists will not be put on trial.
As usual, the bias of the 'Center for Policy Research' echoes
through this newsgroup.  Here we have an enraged Likudnik who
is venting his spleen, and you portray it as if this is going
to become policy.  You don't say what the response to Matza's
suggestion was.  Do do not mention whether he was refering to
terrorists caught in the act, which could be a clear cut case
of self-defence.  Would you care to elaborate on this, or was
this all you wanted to say on the matter.  Why don't you give
up this 'Center for Policy Research' crap, and just post your
biases without trying to legitimize them with a pompous name?
>Ha'aretz, 16 March1993:
>
>Today a private security firm and units from the IDF Southern
>Command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the Gaza
>strip, as an additional stage in the upgrading of security
>measures in the Strip.
>
>The gates will aid in the searching of [non-Jewish] Gaza residents
>as they leave for work in Israel. They can be used to reveal the
>presence of knives, axes, weapons and other sharp objects.
>
>In addition to the gates, which will be operated by a private
>civilian company, large quantities of magnetic-card reading
>devices are being brought to the inspection points, to facilitate
>the reading of the magnetic cards these [non-Jewish] workers must
>carry.
A laudable precaution.
Every single thing you post about Israel is posted to portray
Israel as negatively as you can.  Deliberate omissions are an
integral part of the shtick.  And it's not only the incidents
that you do not mention, but even the stories you do post are
fraught with omissions, which change the entire meaning.  The
absurdity of your respectable name cannot hide your bias.
In your effort to portray Israel in an unfavorable light, you
have accomplished nothing, except to prove that a respectable
sounding label like the Center for Policy Research is nothing
but a smoke screen for someone with a heavily biased attitude
against Israel and the need to vent it.  You
This 'Center for Policy Research' stuff is nonsense.
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. Madness.
In-Reply-To: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU's message of Sat, 17 Apr 1993 18:16:47 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Brown University
Lines: 12
In article <C5n43z.Dq2@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman) writes:
This post has all the earmarks of a form program, where the user types in
a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story.
If this is true, I condemn it. If it's a fabrication, then the posters have
horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth.
Jesse
Agreed.
Harry.
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science
In article <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
>
Ermenistan kasiniyor...
Let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets
into it	: Armenia is getting itchy.
Esin.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Center for Anti-Israel Propaganda
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 67
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
the 'Center for Policy Research' writes...
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS
>
>Hadashot, 14 March 1993:
>
>The Israeli Police Department announced on the evening of Friday,
>March 12 that it is calling upon [Jewish] Israeli citizens with
>gun permits to carry them at all times "so as to contribute to
>their security and that of their surroundings".
Considering all the murders of innocent Israelis at the hands
of Arab death merchants, I see nothing wrong with the advice.
>Ha'aretz, 15 March 1993:
>
>Yehoshua Matza (Likud), Chair of the Knesset Interior Committee,
>stated that he intends to demand that the police department make
>it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills
>[non-Jewish] terrorists will not be put on trial.
As usual, the bias of the 'Center for Policy Research' echoes
through this newsgroup.  Here we have an enraged Likudnik who
is venting his spleen, and you portray it as if this is going
to become policy.  You don't say what the response to Matza's
suggestion was.  Do do not mention whether he was refering to
terrorists caught in the act, which could be a clear cut case
of self-defence.  Would you care to elaborate on this, or was
this all you wanted to say on the matter.  Why don't you give
up this 'Center for Policy Research' crap, and just post your
biases without trying to legitimize them with a pompous name?
>Ha'aretz, 16 March1993:
>
>Today a private security firm and units from the IDF Southern
>Command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the Gaza
>strip, as an additional stage in the upgrading of security
>measures in the Strip.
>
>The gates will aid in the searching of [non-Jewish] Gaza residents
>as they leave for work in Israel. They can be used to reveal the
>presence of knives, axes, weapons and other sharp objects.
>
>In addition to the gates, which will be operated by a private
>civilian company, large quantities of magnetic-card reading
>devices are being brought to the inspection points, to facilitate
>the reading of the magnetic cards these [non-Jewish] workers must
>carry.
A laudable precaution.
Every single thing you post about Israel is posted to portray
Israel as negatively as you can.  Deliberate omissions are an
integral part of the shtick.  And it's not only the incidents
that you do not mention, but even the stories you do post are
fraught with omissions, which change the entire meaning.  The
absurdity of your respectable name cannot hide your bias.
In your effort to portray Israel in an unfavorable light, you
have accomplished nothing, except to prove that a respectable
sounding label like the Center for Policy Research is nothing
but a smoke screen for someone with a heavily biased attitude
against Israel and the need to vent it.
This 'Center for Policy Research' stuff is nonsense.
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2
Keywords: effective Greek & Armenian postings
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science
In article <1993Apr16.225409.22697@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <93332@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a
>KAAN,TIMUCIN) wrote:
>
>[KAAN] Who the hell is this guy David Davidian. I think he talks too much..
>
>I am your alter-ego!
>
>[KAAN] Yo , DAVID you would better shut the f... up.. O.K ??
>
>No, its' not OK! What are you going to do? Come and get me?
Maybe he will. Maybe he is working for the secret Turkish service. You never
know.
>[KAAN]  I don't like your attitute. You are full of lies and shit.
>
>In the United States we refer to it as Freedom of Speech. If you don't like
No it is still called "you are full of shit"; even in the US.:)
>[KAAN] Didn't you hear the saying "DON'T MESS WITH A TURC!!"...
>
>No. Why do you ask? What are you going to do? Are you going to submit me to
>bodily harm? Are you going to kill me? Are you going to torture me?
Well, now you have. Don't worry Turks do not turn to terrorist actions like
Armenians have so you can be sure that you will not be killed. However, I
do not know about the torture part... Timucin sounds like a tough guy so
watch out.
>[KAAN] See ya in hell..
>
>Wrong again!
>
>[KAAN] Timucin.
>
>All I did was to translate a few lines from Turkish into English. If it was
>so embarrassing in Turkish, it shouldn't have been written in the first place!
>Don't kill the messenger!
If you are going to translate, you have to do it consistently. If you
selectively translate things to serve your ugly purpose, people get
pisssssssssed offfffff.
In Ottoman times messengers were usually killed by cutting their heads off and
sending it back to their country. But Ottoman empire no longer exists :(.
(darn!)
Esin.
>--
>David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
>S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
>P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
>Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?
Reply-To: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Organization: The National Capital Freenet
Lines: 27
In a previous article, steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel) says:
>Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
>   take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>
>A: Four
>
>Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>and one writes up a false report.
This newsgroup is for intelligent discussion.  I want you to either smarten
up and stop this bullshit posting or get the fuck out of my face and this
net.
Steve
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |
From: oz@ursa.sis.yorku.ca (Ozan S. Yigit)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2
In-Reply-To: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org's message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993 04: 57:08 GMT
Organization: York U. Student Information Systems Project
Lines: 54
David posts a good translation of a post by Suat Kinikliouglu:
[most of the original post elided]
[KK] ***** VATAN SEVGISI RUHLARI KIRDEN KURTARAN EN KUVVETLI RUZGARDIR *****
In translation, as a public service:
[most of the translation elided]
***** THE LOVE OF THE FATHERLAND IS THE STRONGEST OF ALL WINDS CLEANSING
FILTH OFF SOULS *****
I think this part of the translation is questionable. Although I
think the original quote is plain silly, you made it sound as if
it is coming from a neo-nazi youth. For example, Turks talk of a
"motherland" not a Germanic "fatherland". Why "filth" instead of
"dirt"? The indeterminacy of translation is a well-known problem
[1] so one may have to "fudge", but with some care of course. Is
the following an equally valid translation?
The love of one's country is the strongest wind to cleanse one's
soul.
See my point?
Nevertheless, I think you translate well.
oz
---
[1] Willard Van Orman Quine
Word and Object
MIT Press, Cambridge, Mass
1960
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 92
In article <1993Apr17.153728.12152@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu
(Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>In article <2BCF287A.25524@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu
(Tim Clock) writes:
>|
>|> "Assuming"? Also: come on, Brad. If we are going to get anywhere in
>|> this (or any) discussion, it doesn't help to bring up elements I never
>|> addressed, *nor commented on in any way*. I made no comment on who is
>|> "right" or who is "wrong", only that civilians ARE being used as cover
>|> and that, having been placed "in between" the Israelis and the guerillas,
>|> they *will* be injured as both parties continue their fight.
>
>Pardon me Tim, but I do not see how it can be possible for the IDF to fail
>to detect the presence of those responsible for planting the bomb which
>killed the three IDF troops and then later know the exact number and
>whereabouts of all of them. Several villages were shelled. How could the IDF
>possibly have known that there were guerrillas in each of the targetted
>villages? You see, it was an arbitrary act of "retaliation".
>
I will again *repeat* my statement: 1) I *do not* condone these
*indiscriminate* Israeli acts (nor have I *ever*, 2) If the villagers do not know who these "guerillas" are (which you stated earlier), how do you expect the
Israelis to know? It is **very** difficult to "identify" who they are (this
*is why* the "guerillas" prefer to lose themselves in the general population
by dressing the same, acting the same, etc.).
>
>|> The "host" Arab state did little/nothing to try and stop these attacks
>|> from its side of the border with Israel
>
>The problem, Tim, is that the original reason for the invasion was Palestinian
>attacks on Israel, NOT Lebanese attacks.
>
I agree; but, because Lebanon was either unwilling or unable to stop these
attacks from its territory should Israel simply sit quietly and accept its
situation? Israel asked the Lebanese government over and over to control
this "third party state" within Lebanese territory and the attacks kept
occuring. At **what point** does Israel (or ANY state) have the right to do
something ITSELF to stop such attacks? Never?
>|> >
>|> While the "major armaments" (those allowing people to wage "civil wars")
>|> have been removed, the weapons needed to cross-border attacks still
>|> remain to some extent. Rocket attacks still continue, and "commando"
>|> raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard
>|> for human life (yours of that of others). Such attacks also continue.
>
>Yes, I am afraid that what you say is true but that still does not justify
>occupying your neighbor's land. Israel must resolve its disputes with the
>native Palestinians if it wants peace from such attacks.
>
It is also the responsibility of *any* state to NOT ALLOW *any* outside
party to use its territory for attacks on a neighboring state. If 1) Angola
had the power, and 2) South Africa refused (or couldn't) stop anti-Angolan
guerillas based on SA soil from attacking Angola, and 3) South Africa
refused to have UN troops stationed on its territory between it and Angola,
would Angola be justified in entering SA? If not, are you saying that
Angola HAD to accept the situation, do NOTHING and absorb the attacks?
>|>
>|> Bat guano. The situation you call for existed in the 1970s and attacks
>|> were commonplace.
>
>Not true. Lebanese were not attacking Israel in the 1970s. With a strong
>Lebanese government (free from Syrian and Israeli interference) I believe
>that the border could be adequately patrolled. The Palestinian heavy
>weapons have been siezed in past years and I do not see as significant a
>threat as once existed.
>
I refered above *at all times* to the Palestinian attacks on Israel from
Lebanese soil, NOT to Lebanese attacks on Israel.
One hopes that a Lebanese government will be strong enough to patrol its
border but there is NO reason to believe it will be any stronger. WHAT HAS
CHANGED is that the PLO was largely *driven out* of Lebanon (not by the
Lebanese, not by Syria) and THAT is by far the most important making it
EASIER to control future Palestinian attacks from Lebanese soil. That
**change** was brought about by Israeli action; the PLO would *never*
have been ejected by Lebanese, Arab state or UN actions.
>
>Please, Tim, don't fall into the trap of treating Lebanese and Palestinians
>as all part of the same group. There are too many who think all Arabs or all
>Muslims are the same. Too many times I have seen people support the bombing
>of Palestinian camps in "retaliation" for an IDF death at the hands of the
>Lebanese Resistance or the shelling of Lebanese villages in "retaliation" for
>a Palestinian attack.
>|>
I fully recognize that the Lebanese do NOT WANT to be "used" by EITHER side,
and have been (and continue to be). But the most fundamental issue is that
if a state cannot control its borders and make REAL efforts to do so, it
should expect others to do it for them. Hopefully that "other" will be
the UN but it is (as we see in its cowardice regarding Bosnia) weak.
Tim
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Lines: 21
hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
>civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country?
So, it's okay to use civilians for cover if you're attacking soldiers
in your country.  (Of course, many of those attacking claim that they
aren't Lebanese, so it's not their country.)
Got it.  I think.  Hmm.  This is confusing.
Could you perhaps repeat your rules explaining exactly when it is
permissible to use civilians as shields?  Also please explain under
what conditions it is permissible for soldiers to defend themselves.
Also please explain the particular rules that make it okay for
terrorists to launch missiles from Lebanon against Israeli civilians,
but not okay for the Israelis to try to defend themselves against
those missiles.
--
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. Madness.
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Lines: 165
In article <1483500342@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: From Israeli press. Madness.
>
> /* Written  4:34 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
> /* ---------- "From Israeli press. Madness." ---------- */
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.
>
> Paper: Zman Tel Aviv (Tel Aviv's time). Friday local Tel Aviv's
> paper, affiliated with Maariv.
>
> Date: 19 February 1993
>
> Journalist: Guy Ehrlich
>
> Subject: Interview with soldiers who served in the Duvdevan
> (Cherry) units, which disguise themselves as Arabs and operate
> within the occupied territories.
>
> Excerpts from the article:
>
> "A lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as
> Arabs, things good and bad, some of the falsehoods. But the most
> important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with. It is
> that everyone who serves in the Cherry, after a time goes in one
> way or another insane".
Gee, I'd better tell this to the Mental Health Branch of the Israeli Army
Medical Corps ! Where would we be without  you, Davidson ?
>
> A man who said this, who will here be called Danny (his full name
> is known to the editors) served in the Cherry. After his discharge
> from the army he works as delivery boy. His pal, who will here be
> called Dudu was also serving in the Cherry, and is now about to
> depart for a round-the-world tour. They both look no different
> from average Israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript
> service. But in their souls, one can notice something completely
> different....It was not easy for them to come out with disclosures
> about what happened to them. And they think that to most of their
> fellows from the Cherry it woundn't be easy either. Yet after they
> began to talk, it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking.
> The following article will contain all the horror stories
> recounted with an appalling openness.
>
> (...) A short time ago I was in command of a veteran team, in
> which some of the fellows applied for release from the Cherry. We
> called such soldiers H.I. 'Hit by the Intifada'. Under my command
> was a soldier who talked to himself non-stop, which is a common
> phenomenon in the Cherry. I sent him to a psychiatrist. But why I
> should talk about others when I myself feel quite insane ? On
> Fridays, when I come home, my parents know I cannot be talked to
> until I go to the beach, surf a little, calm down and return. The
> keys of my father's car must be ready for in advance, so that I
> can go there. I they dare talk to me before, or whenever I don't
> want them to talk to me, I just grab a chair and smash it
> instantly. I know it is my nerve:  Smashing chairs all the time
> and then running away from home, to the car and to the beach. Only
> there I become normal.(...)
>
> (...) Another friday I was eating a lunch prepared by my mother.
> It was an omelette of sorts. She took the risk of sitting next to
> me and talking to me. I then told my mother about an event which
> was still fresh in my mind. I told her how I shot an Arab, and how
> exactly his wound looked like when I went to inspect it. She began
> to laugh hysterically. I wanted her to cry, and she dared laugh
> straight in my face instead ! So I told her how my pal had made a
> mincemeat of the two Arabs who were preparing the Molotov
> cocktails. He shot them down, hitting them beautifully, exactly as
> they deserved. One bullet had set a Molotov cocktail on fire, with
> the effect that the Arab was burning all over, just beautifully. I
> was delighted to see it.  My pal fired three bullets, two at the
> Arab with the Molotov cocktail, and the third at his chum. It hit
> him straight in his ass. We both felt that we'd pulled off
> something.
>
> Next I told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts
> in the belly of another Arab and how all of us ran toward that
> spot to take a look. I reached the spot first. And then that Arab,
> blood gushing forth from his body, spits at me. I yelled: 'Shut
> up' and he dared talk back to me in Hebrew! So I just laughed
> straight in his face. I am usually laughing when I stare at
> something convulsing right before my eyes. Then I told him: 'All
> right, wait a moment'. I left him in order to take a look at
> another wounded Arab. I asked a soldier if that Arab could be
> saved, if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the
> help of a stone of something else like that. I keep telling all
> this to my mother, with details, and she keeps laughing straight
> into my face. This infuriated me. I got very angry, because I felt
> I was becoming mad. So I stopped eating, seized the plate with he
> omelette and some trimmings still on, and at once threw it over
> her head. Only then she stopped laughing. At first she didn't know
> what to say.
>
> (...) But I must tell you of a still other madness which falls
> upon us frequently. I went with a friend to practice shooting on a
> field. A gull appeared right in the middle of the field. My friend
> shot it at once. Then we noticed four deer standing high up on the
Sigh.
Four (4) deer in Tel Aviv ?? Well, this is probably as accurate as the rest of
this fantasy.
> hill above us. My friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it.
> We enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock. We shot down two
> deer more and went to take a look. When we climbed the rocks we
> saw a young deer, badly wounded by our bullet, but still trying to
> such some milk from its already dead mother. We carefully
> inspected two paths, covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of
> the two deer we had hit. We were just delighted by that sight. We
> had hit'em so good ! Then we decided to kill the young deer too,
> so as spare it further suffering. I approached, took out my
> revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short
> distance. When you shoot straight at the head you actually see the
> bullets sinking in.  But my fifth bullet made its brains fall
> outside onto the ground, with the effect of splattering lots of
> blood straight on us. This made us feel cured of the spurt of our
> madness. Standing there soaked with blood, we felt we were like
> beasts of prey. We couldn't explain what had happened to us. We
> were almost in tears while walking down from that hill, and we
> felt the whole day very badly.
>
> (...) We always go back to places we carried out assignments in.
> This is why we can see them. When you see a guy you disabled, may
> be for the rest of his life, you feel you got power. You feel
> Godlike of sorts."
>
> (...) Both Danny and Dudu contemplate at least at this moment
> studying the acting. Dudu is not willing to work in any
> security-linked occupation. Danny feels the exact opposite. 'Why
> shouldn't I take advantage of the skills I have mastered so well ?
> Why shouldn't I earn $3.000 for each chopped head I would deliver
> while being a mercenary in South Africa ? This kind of job suits
> me perfectly. I have no human emotions any more. If I get a
> reasonable salary I will have no problem to board a plane to
> Bosnia in order to fight there."
>
> Transl. by Israel Shahak.
>
Yisrael Shahak the crackpot chemist ?  Figures.  I often see him in the
Rechavia (Jerusalem) post office. A really sad figure. Actually, I  feel sorry
for him. He was in a concentration camp during the Holocaust  and it must have
affected him deeply.
Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. TORTURE.
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Lines: 115
In article <1483500344@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: From Israeli press. TORTURE.
>
> /* Written  4:41 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
> /* ---------- "From Israeli press. TORTURE." ---------- */
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.
>
> Newspaper: Ma'ariv Date: 18. December 1992 Author: Avi Raz
>
> Subject: Torture
Sigh.
Farwell LA, Donchin E. The truth will out: Interrogative polygraphy ("lie
detection") with event-related brain potentials. Psychophysiology
1991;28:531-547
"The research reported here was supported in part by contract number 87F350800
with the Central Intelligence Agency. Preliminary reports were presented at the
1986, 1988, and 1989 meetings of the Society for Psychophysiological Research".
Donchin happens to be an Israeli.
Do you really think that Israel needs something as primitive as torture when it
has THIS as well as something brought over by a Russian mathematician from the
Lenningrad Military Hospital in 1979  (factor-analysis of multiple unit
activity of the brain) ???  Surely you jest.
When Israel sics trained dogs on Arab prisoners the way it's commonly done on
prison farms in Mississippi or Alabama, *then* you have a right to protest
against torture. When Israeli security personnel beat Arab prisoners the way
Chicago police do, *then* you have a right to complain. Since it does NOT
practice physical torture in any way, kindly refrain from using this word.
Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
>
> Title of article: Moderate physical pressure
>
> Several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation
> room in Tulkarm prison, during which he says he was humiliated,
> beaten and tortured, Omar Daoud Jaber heard his interrogator, a
> Shabak agent 'Captain Louis', chatting on the phone with his wife.
> "At those moments", Omar said, "I felt that he was like a
> humanbeing, but right after he finished talking, he would be beat
> me and say, 'You listened to the conversation and enjoyed
> yourself' and I understood that he was not really a human being".
>
> In late October 1992, after 38 days in detention at Tulkarm
> prison, Omar Jaber was released without charges. "Among the Jews,
> as among the Arabs, there are good people and bad people", he said
> after his release, "but there, in Tulkarm, in the interrogations
> rooms, you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that
> he is a human being". Although he left the detention installation
> in Tulkarm bruised and humiliated ("I sat at home for ten days. My
> hands shook from nerves"), one may consider Omar Jaber lucky: He
> got out, not so healthy, but entire, and even ultimately returned
> to normal functioning, at the small solar heater plant he owns.
>
> In contrast, Hassan Bader al-Zbeidi, for example, was released
> seven weeks ago from detention in Tulkarm after 33 days in the
> Shabak wing, cut off from his surroundings. He doesn't speak or
> react. Mustafa Barakat, aged only 23, who was arrested in early
> August and was brought to the Tulkarm detention installation, left
> it one day later - dead. "We have recently received an especially
> large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at
> the Tulkarm detention installation by Shabak interrogators", noted
> Dr. Niv Gordon, director of the Association of Israel and
> Palestinian Physicians for Human Rights. (...)
>
> The right to complain against the Shabak does not excite Anan
> Saber Makhlouf, a 20 year old student. In fact, he was extremely
> fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated
> in Tulkarm prison, in case the publication in the paper would
> return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment.
>
> (...follow description of tortures....)
>
> Omar, a tall bearded man, was silent. "I do not want to talk about
> it", he finally said, quietly. Some time later, embarrased and
> ashamed, he spoke: "Sometimes he beats you and beats you until
> you'll kiss his hand, and not only his hand. Even the hands of
> another interrogator, and another, whom he calls into the room,
> and the last interrogator says:" Now you are kissing my hand, and
> later if I want, you will kiss my ass."
>
> These things take place in an Israeli army detention installation,
> located within the military government compound in Tulkarm (West
> Bank). But the Shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom. In
> early March the IDF allowed representatives of B'Tselem, the
> Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Territories, to
> visit Tulkarm prison, but denied them access to the interrogation
> wing. "The interrogation wing is Shabak property, being solely
> under Shabak responsibility. All interrogations are performed by
> it", said Lieutnant Sharon Sho'an, the commander of the
> installation, according to the internal report written by B'tselem
> member, Yuval Ginbar, following the visit. Major David Pe'er,
> governing commander of the prison system in the Central Command,
> was quoted in the report:  "There is an ethical problem here - no
> one can enter the interrogation wing".
>
> Transl. by I. Shahak
>
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Its entire Muslim population had been slaughtered by the Armenians.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 31
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages).
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 19 (first paragraph)
"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same
fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."
p. 22 (second paragraph)
"Many of our men had served in the Russian Army, and were trained soldiers.
We Armenians were rich and possessed arms. Tartars had never received
military training. They were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives.
Shortly after the killing of the Tartars in our village, the revolution
in Russia was suppressed."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian way of slaughtering a twelve-year-old Muslim girl.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 41
Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers,
Inc., New York (1952).
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 360.
"At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and
tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."
p. 361 (fourth paragraph).
"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair,
large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble
where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet
had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between
the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun
dress.
The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He
lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the
pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed
just below his neck, into the spine.
There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was
empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking
colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Cold-blooded slaughter of Muslim women and children by Armenians.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 91
In article <1993Apr17.011112.27439@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>Hmm.  Maybe I'll go rent Midnight Express tonight.  I haven't seen that
>scene in awhile; I have to savor the moment all over again.
Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920,
the fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted
and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because
of race, religion and national origin?
As in the past in Turkiye, and today in Azerbaijan, for utopic and
idiotic causes the Armenians brought havoc to their neighbors. A
short-sighted and misplaced nationalistic fervor with a wrong agenda
and anachronistic methods the Armenians continue to become pernicious
for the region. As usual, they will be treated accordingly by their
neighbors. Nagorno-Karabag is a mountainous enclave that lies completely
within Azerbaijan with no border or history whatsoever connected to
x-Soviet Armenia. Besides the geographical aspect, Nagorno-Karabag is
the historic homeland and the 'cradle' of the artistic and literary
heritage of Azerbaijan, which renders the Armenian claims preposterous,
even lunatic.
And we still demand:
1. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government, as the heirs of the Armenian
dictatorship, recognize the Turkish Genocide;
2. that x-Soviet Armenia return the historic homeland to the Turkish and
Kurdish people;
3. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government make material reparations for their
heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the Turkish Genocide;
4. that all world governments officially recognize the Turkish Genocide
and Turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all Armenian
political pressure.
The awareness of the Turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the
efforts to pursue the Turkish Cause is seen by the victims of the first
genocide of the 20th century as a positive step.
Now what would you do?
Source: 'The Sunday Times,' 1 March 1992 (a British Weekly, written by
Thomas Goltz, from Agdam, Azerbaijan.)
ARMENIAN SOLDIERS MASSACRE HUNDREDS OF FLEEING FAMILIES.
The spiralling  violence gripping the  outer republics of  the former
Soviet Union gained new impetus  yesterday with cold-blooded slaughter of
hundreds of women and children in war-racked Nagorno-Karabakh.
Survivors  reported that  Armenian soldiers  shot and  bayoneted more
than 450  Azeris, many of  them women and  children, who were  fleeing an
attack  on their  town. Hundreds,  possibly thousands,  were missing  and
feared dead.
The attackers  killed most of  the soldiers and  volunteers defending
the women  and children.  They then  turned their  guns on  the terrified
refugees. The few  survivors later described what  happened:" That's when
the real  slaughter began," said  Azer Hajiev,  one of three  soldiers to
survive. "The  Armenians just shot and  shot. And then they  came in and
started carving up people with their bayonets and knives."
" They were shooting, shooting, shooting", echoed Rasia Aslanova, who
arrived in Agdam with other women and children who made their way through
Armenian lines. She said her husband, Kayun, and a son-in-law were killed
in front of her. Her daughter was still missing.
One boy who arrived in Agdam had an ear sliced off.
The survivors  said 2000  others, some of  whom had  fled separately,
were still missing in the gruelling terrain; many could perish from their
wounds or the cold.
By late  yesterday, 479 deaths had  been registered at the  morgue in
Agdam's morgue,  and 29 bodies  had been buried  in the cemetery.  Of the
seven corpses  I saw awaiting  burial, two  were children and  three were
women, one shot through the chest at point blank range.
Agdam hospital was  a scene of carnage and terror.  Doctors said they
had 140 patients who escaped slaughter, most with bullet injuries or deep
stab wounds.
Nor were they safe in Agdam. On friday night rockets fell on the city
which  has a  population  of 150,000,  destroying  several buildings  and
killing one person.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: X-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 61
In article <C5LxEw.9p0@panix.com> mpoly@panix.com (Michael S. Polymenakos) writes:
> Maybe with the availability of anon servers some people are beginning to
>speak out?
I sure hope so. Because, the unspeakable crimes of the Armenians must
be righted. Armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of
Urartus, massacred and exterminated its population and presented to
the world all those left from the Urartus, as the Armenian civilization.
All reliable Western historians describe how Armenians ruthlessly
exterminated 2.5 million Muslim women, children and elderly people of
Eastern Anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of the
Ottoman Empire between 1914-1920.
It is unfortunately a truth that Armenians are known as collaborators
of the Nazis during World War II and that, even today, criminal/Nazi
members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle preach and instigate
racism, hatred, violence and terrorism among peoples.
And x-Soviet Armenia continues its anti-Turkish policy in the following
ways:
1. x-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide
in order to shift international public opinion away from its political
responsibility.
2. x-Soviet Armenia, employing ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism
Triangle and criminal/Nazi Armenians, attempts to call into question the
veracity of the Turkish Genocide.
3. x-Soviet Armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through
the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle in an attempt to
silence the Turkish people's vehement demands and protests.
4. Using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-Soviet
Armenia and its tools in the United States attempt to silence through
terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-Turkish supporters
of the Turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian.
Using all the aforementioned methods, the x-Soviet Armenian government
is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from
making the Turkish Case a contemporary issue.
Yet despite the efforts of the x-Soviet Armenian government and its terrorist
and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks to the struggle
of those whose closest ones were systematically exterminated by the Armenians,
the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse, and
consequently a number of governments and organizations have become
supportive of the recognition of the Turkish Genocide.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: No Muslim left alive - not a single one: Historical Armenian Barbarism.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 326
In article <1993Apr10.025031.24352@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> halsall@MURRAY.FORDHAM.EDU (Paul Halsall) writes:
>	Simple question Serdar?
Anytime.
>	If the Armenians killed so many Turks in Eastern Anatolia,
>how come the area today is full of Turks [and Muslim Kurds] and
>not full of Armenians?
Suffering from a severe case of myopia? No Muslim left alive - not a
single one. Leading the first Armenian units who crossed the Ottoman
border in the company of the Russian invaders was the former Ottoman
Parliamentary representative for Erzurum, Karekin Pastirmaciyan, who
assumed the revolutionary name Armen Garo. Another former Ottoman
parliamentarian, Hamparsum Boyaciyan, led the Armenian guerrilla forces
who ravaged Turkish villages behind the lines under the nickname "Murad",
especially ordering that
'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in
whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children
also should be killed as they form a danger to the
Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)[1]
[1] M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.
Another former Member of Parliament, Papazyan, led the Armenian
guerrilla forces that ravaged the areas of Van, Bitlis and Mush.
In March 1915, the Russian forces began to move toward Van. Immediately,
in April 11, 1915 the Armenians of Van began a revolt, massacring all
the Turks in the vicinity so as to make possible its quick and easy
conquest by Russians. Little wonder that Czar Nicholas II sent a
telegram of thanks to the Armenian Revolutionary Committee of Van in
April 21, 1915, "thanking it for its services to Russia." The Armenian
newspaper Gochnak, published in the United States, also proudly
reported in May 24, 1915 that
"only 1,500 Turks remained in Van the rest having been slaughtered."
Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.
"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the
Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character
notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian
Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the
southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia."
(See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of
Transcaucasia).
In 1920, '0' percent Turk.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
Ohanus Appressian
"Men Are Like That"
p. 202.
Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.
"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city
of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population,
closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan
on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized
and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during
the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
southern side of the lake."
"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
soldiers began deserting in droves."
"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."
Source: Stanford J. Shaw, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey,"
Vol II. Cambridge University Press, London, 1979, pp. 314-317.
"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the
president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:
'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the
glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]
Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."
[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.
"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"
[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1,
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.
"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it
appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new
Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"
[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.
[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915;
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.
Now wait, there is more.
From "The Diplomacy of Imperialism," William L. Langer, New York (Alfred A.
Knopf), 1960, pp. 157-160.
"Armenians watch their opportunity to kill Turks and Kurds, set fire
to their villages, and then make their escape into the mountains."
>	Also, since the Ottomans were such great tolerators, how come
>the Armenians were counted as part of the RUM millet, i.e. forced
>under the control of the GREEK Orthodox patriarchate?
Are you people for real? The main legal principles of the Turkish State
are summarized in Article 2 of the Constitution:
"The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular and social State
governed by the rule of law; bearing in mind the concepts of public
peace, national solidarity and justice; respecting human rights;
loyal to the nationalism of Ataturk, and based on the fundamental
tenets set forth in the Preamble of the Constitution."
Freedom of culture and religion prevailed during the Ottoman Empire, allowing
the many nations and races within its boundaries to remain autonomous. The
fact that the Ottoman Empire was the longest lived in recent history may be
attributed to these freedoms, despite the lack of any written Constitution.
The first attempts to create a written Constitution occurred in 1839 and 1856.
Although the documents adopted during these two attempts remained in force
only temporarily, they provided the basic elements of a Constitution.
The 1876 Constitution was the first legal document to force a Parliament and
the right of election to share the sovereignty of the Emperor. The Constitution
of 1906 placed some additional limitations on the Emperor, while increasing
the power of the Parliament and the government.
The First World War (1914-1918) brought the Ottoman Empire to an end. By the
occupation of Istanbul, the Parliament was dissolved and the Constitution was
abolished. The members of Parliament were sent to exile to an island by the
occupying forces.
During the Independence War, the "Turkish Grand National Assembly" held their
first meeting on April 23, 1920 to serve as the legislative body of the new
Turkish state. This assembly prepared the new legal structure of the Turkish
Republic. The new Republic was proclaimed on October 29, 1923 and the new
Constitution was adopted in 1924. That Constitution served as the legal
backbone of today's modern Turkish Republic. In 1945, Turkey adopted a
multi-party political system. The Constitution of 1924 was replaced by
others in 1961 and 1982. All three Constitutions of the Republic have been
based on the principles of parliamentary democracy, human rights, national
sovereignty, division of powers, private ownership and secularization.
"Major Principles of the Constitution"
The constitution (with 177 Articles) establishes the structure of the Republic
within the following principles:
- The Turkish Republic is a democratic, secular and social state governed by
law;
- It should be governed to maintain public peace, national solidarity, justice,
human rights and the objectives of Ataturk;
- The language of the State is Turkish;
- Sovereignty is vested in the nation without any conditions or restrictions.
Sovereignty is exercised by organizations authorized by the nation;
- Legislative power is carried by the Parliament elected by the nation. This
power cannot be delegated (transferred) to any one else;
- Executive power is exercised by the President, and Council of Ministers;
- Judicial power is exercised by the independent courts on behalf of the
Turkish nation;
- All individuals are equal, irrespective of language, race, religion, color,
sex, or political beliefs;
- Laws cannot be contradict those principles stated in the Constitution.
"Structure of the State"
In accordance with the Constitution, the structure of the state is based on the
principle of "division of power" to create a balanced and self-controlled
system. The power is divided into "legislative power," "executive power," and
"judicial power," balanced to secure freedoms and powers to control each
other (self-control).
A. Legislative Power:
The "Turkish Grand National Assembly" is a parliament with one House, elected
by the nation for a term of five years to exercise legislative power on
behalf of the nation. The basic functions of this Assembly are:
- to adopt, to amend, or to repeal laws;
- to approve or to dismiss the Council of Ministers;
- to supervise and to question Ministers or the Council of Ministers;
- to debate, to amend and to approve annual budgets;
- to ratify international agreements;
- to grant amnesty or pardons.
Members of Parliament do not have any liability for their words (either oral
or written) during the course of their legislative duties. The country is
divided into constituencies. The number of representatives of each is
calculated according to its population. Every Turkish citizen over the age
of twenty-one can vote.
Elections are supervised by the "Supreme Council of Elections," which solves
all disputes or appeals. In each province, the local "Board of Election"
runs and controls the election under the supervision and guidelines of the
Supreme Council. Members of the Council and Boards are elected among
independent judges.
B. Executive Power:
The President of the Republic is the Head of State (not the head of government
as in the Unites States). The main functions of the President are:
- to represent the State and the Country;
- to insure the implementation of the Constitution;
- to coordinate legislative, judicial and executive functions;
- act as the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces;
- to ratify laws and government decrees.
The President is elected by the Grand National Assembly for a period of seven
years. The President may ratify or return the laws for a second debate, may
call for a referendum.
Executive power is exercised by the "Council of Ministers," headed by the
Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is appointed by the President from the
members of Parliament. The Prime Minister names the Ministers for approval
by the President. The new Government (Council of Ministers) reads their
program at the Parliament and the vote of confidence follows. There are 21 (?)
Ministers in the Council.
Ministers and other members of the administration can be sued in independent
"administrative" courts for their misuse of power, administrative errors or
functions against any law.
C. Judicial Power:
Judicial power is exercised by independent courts. No authority or power can
instruct the judges or public prosecutors of the courts. These cannot be
discharged, replaced or retired by executive authorities except for the
reasons clearly stated by the appropriate laws. There are three categories
of courts in the Turkish judiciary system:
- Courts of justice deal with legal, commercial and criminal cases. The
decisions of these courts may be reviewed by the supreme court of justice
upon the appeal of the parties involved.
- The decisions or functions of the executive power (including the Prime
Minister and Ministers or any governmental department) can be appealed in
administrative courts if these functions or decisions are against the law.
The decisions of these administrative courts may also be reviewed by the
high administrative court.
The laws and decisions of the Grand National Assembly can be examined by the
"Constitutional Court" if they contradict the Constitution. If found
contradictory, this court may cancel the decisions or laws of the Parliament.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Lines: 12
tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
:
: While you brought up the separate question of Israel's unjustified
: policies and practices, I am still unclear about your reaction to
: the practices and polocies reflected in the article above.
:
: Tim
Not a separate question Mr. Clock. It is deceiving to judge the
resistance movement out of the context of the occupation.
Alaa Zeineldine
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron
Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University
Lines: 29
In article <1483500346@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>Those who wish to learn something about the perversion of Judaism,
>should consult the masterly work by Yehoshua Harkabi, who was many
>years the head of Israeli Intelligence and an opponent of the PLO. His
>latest book was published in English and includes a very detailed analysis
>of Judeo-Nazism.
You mean he talks about those Jews, who, because of their self
hatred, spend all their time attacking Judaism, Jews, and Israel,
using the most despicable of anti-Semetic stereotypes?
I don't think we need to coin a term like "Jedeo-Nazism" to
refer to those Jews who, in their endless desire to be accepted by the
Nazis, do their dirty work for them.  We can just call them house
Jews, fools, or anti-Semites from Jewish families.
I think "house Jews," a reference to a person of Jewish
ancestry who issues statements for a company or organization that
condemn Judaism is perfectly sufficeint.  I think a few years free of
their anti-Semetic role models would do wonders for most of them.
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: mbkolodn@unix.amherst.edu (MICHAEL BRIAN KOLODNER)
Subject: How many israeli soldiers does it take to
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Lines: 2
Boy that was really humorous.  I'm impressed by your incredible senses of wit,
sarcasm and propriety.  Mind if I post jokes about your mother?
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Legality of the Jewish Purchase
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 104
In article <1993Apr16.225910.16670@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>Adam Shostack writes:
>> Sam Zbib writes
>   >>I'm surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
>   >>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
>   >>state, as a hostile action leading to war.
>>	It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
>> exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
>> 400 000 arab citizens.
>Could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of
>Israel right after it was formed.
100% Israeli citizens.  The ethnic composition depends on what
you mean by formed.  What the UN deeded to Israel?  What it won in war?
>> 	And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
>> action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
>> to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
>> is not a hostile action leading to war.
>No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
>Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
>anti-trust in the business world.
Were there anti-trust laws in place in mandatory Palestine?
Since the answer is no, you're argument, while interestingly
constructed, is irrelevant.  I will however, respond to a few points
you assert in the course of talking about anti-trust laws.
>They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.
And those fleeing Arab lands, where Jews were second class
citizens.
>Plus they paid fair market value, etc...
Jews often paid far more than fair market value for the land
they bought.
>They did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy.
You know, Sam, when people start talking about an
International Jewish conspiracy, its really begins to sound like
anti-Semitic bull.
The reason there is no conspiracy here is quite simple.
Zionists made no bones about what was going on.  There were
conferences, publications, etc, all talking about creating a National
home for the Jews.
>>>Israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it
>>>had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid
>>>flowing).
>>	Israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...It
>>still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained.  And how
>>is granting citizenship a facade?
>Don't get me wrong. I beleive that Israel is democratic
>within the constraints of one dominant ethnic group (Jews).
[...]
>'bad' arabs. Personaly, I've never heard anything about the
>arab community in Isreal. Except that they're there.  So
>yes, they're there. But as a community with history and
>roots, its dead.
Because you've never heard of it, its dead?  The fact is, you
claimed Israel had to give arabs rights because of (non-existant)
International aid.  Then you see that that argument has a hole you
could drive a truck through, and again assert that Israel is only
democratic within the (unexplained) constraints of one ethnic group.
The problem with that argument is that Arabs are allowed to vote for
whoever they please.  So, please tell me, Sam, what constraints are
there on Israeli democracy that don't exist in other democratic
states?
I've never heard anything about the Khazakistani arab
population.  Does that mean that they have no history or roots?  When
I was at Ben Gurion university in Israel, one of my neighbors was an
Israeli arab.  He wasn't really all that different from my other
neighbors.  Does that make him dead or oppressed?
>I stand corrected. I meant that the jewish culture was not
>predominant in Palestine in recent history. I have no
>problem with Jerusalem having a jewish character if it were
>predominantly Jewish. So there. what to make of the rest
>Palestine?
How recent is recent?  I can probably build a case for a
Jewish Gaza city.  It would be pretty silly, but I could do it.  I'm
arguing not that Jerusalem is Jewish, but that land has no ethnicity.
Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (   )
Subject: Himmler's speech on the extirpation of the Jewish race
Lines: 42
Nntp-Posting-Host: euclid.ucsd.edu
WASHINGTON - A stark reminder of the Holocaust--a speech by Nazi
SS leader Heinrich Himmler that refers to "the extermination of the
Jewish race"--went on display Friday at the National Archives.
The documents, including handwritten notes by Himmler, are
among the best evidence that exists to rebut claims that the
Holocaust is a myth, archivists say.
"The notes give them their authenticity," said Robert Wolfe,
a supervisory archivist for captured German records.  "He was
supposed to destroy them.  Like a lot of bosses, he didn't obey his
own rules."
The documents, moved out of Berlin to what Himmler hoped
would be a safe hiding place, were recovered by Allied forces after
World War II from a salt mine near Salzburg, Austria.
Himmler spoke on Oct.4, 1943, in Posen, Poland, to more than
100 German secret police generals.  "I also want to talk to you,
quite frankly, on a very grave matter.  Among ourselves it should be
mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly.
I mean the clearing out of the Jew, the extermination of the Jewish
race.  This is a page of GLORY in our history which has never been
written and is never to be written."  [Emphasis mine--rje]
The German word Himmler uses that is translated as
"extermination" is *Ausrottung*.
Wolfe said a more precise translation would be "extirpation"
or "tearing up by the roots."
In his handwritten notes, Himmler used a euphemism,
"Judenevakuierung" or "evacuation of the Jews."  But archives
officials said "extermination" is the word he actually
spoke--preserved on an audiotape in the archives.
Himmler, who oversaw Adolf Hitler's "final solution of the
Jewish question," committed suicide after he was arrested in 1945.
The National Archives exhibit, on display through May 16, is
a preview of the opening of the United States Holocaust Memorial
Museum here on April 26.
The National Archives exhibit includes a page each of
Himmler's handwritten notes, a typed transcript from the speech and
an offical translation made for the Nuremberg war crimes trials.
---From p.A10 of Saturday's L.A. Times, 4/17/93
(Associated Press)
--
(revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin)
Subject: Re: More on ADL spying case
Organization: Collaborative Information Technology Research Institute
Lines: 12
arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.
>NEW DETAILS OF EXTENSIVE ADL SPY OPERATION EMERGE
>	* INQUIRY: Transcripts reveal nearly 40 years of espionage
>	  by a man who infiltrated political groups
>By Richard C. Paddock, Times staff writer.
Did they have a file on Yigal too?
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: xSoviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 52
In article <1993Apr17.172014.663@hellgate.utah.edu> tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman) writes:
>>I sure hope so. Because, the unspeakable crimes of the Armenians must
>>be righted. Armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of
>No!  NO!  no no no no no.  It is not justifiable to right wrongs of
>previous years.  My ancestors tortured, enslaved, and killed blacks.  I
>do not want to take responsibility for them.  I may not have any direct
>relatives who did such things, but how am I to know?
>There is enough CURRENT torture, enslavement and genocide to go around.
>Lets correct that.  Lets forget and forgive, each and every one of us has
>a historical reason to kill, torture or take back things from those around
>us.  Pray let us not be infantile arbiters for past injustice.
Are you suggesting that we should forget the cold-blooded genocide of
2.5 million Muslim people by the Armenians between 1914 and 1920? But
most people aren't aware that in 1939 Hitler said that he would pattern
his elimination of the Jews based upon what the Armenians did to Turkish
people in 1914.
'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?'
(Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum (Durusoy),
"The Turkish Holocaust - Turk Soykirimi", p. 213.)
I refer to the Turks and Kurds as history's forgotten people. It does
not serve our society well when most people are totally unaware of
what happened in 1914 where a vicious society, run by fascist Armenians,
decided to simply use the phoniest of pretexts as an excuse, for wiping
out a peace-loving, industrious, and very intelligent and productive
ethnic group. What we have is a demand from the fascist government of
x-Soviet Armenia to redress the wrongs that were done against our
people. And the only way we can do that is if we can catch hold of and
not lose sight of the historical precedence in this very century. We
cannot reverse the events of the past, but we can and we must strive to
keep the memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the Atlantic, so as
to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people because
of their religion or their race. Which means that I support the claims
of the Turks and Kurds to return to their lands in x-Soviet Armenia,
to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Entire Muslim population was subjected to genocide by Armenians.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 76
In article <48090@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> hminassi@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (HM) writes:
>     Azeri President Abulfaz Elchibey said Azerbaijan had recovered
>the bodies of some 500 "terrorists including blacks, Mongols and
>fighters recently brought to (the Armenian capital) Yerevan from Lebanon."
You can dream whatever you wish. We have demands from the Armenians.
With the Government of x-Soviet Armenia, we would sit down, go over
all our outstanding issues, whether it's land or reparations or
recognition, whatever it is. We'd like to sit down and ask for it.
By all means, lands and properties were taken away from us and they
should be returned to the rightful owners, the Turkish and Kurdish
people, who were there 3,000 years, long before the Armenians ever
showed up in that area. Entire population of the region was subjected
to genocide beyond belief; genocide which was planned to exterminate
the whole Turkish people of the region to the last man, woman and child.
Armenians tortured and massacred millions of defenseless civilians. To
assemble innocent civilians in the mosques and burn them in the buildings
was one of their methods. Even today the traveler in that region is seldom
free from the evidence of these Armenian crimes.
If you have the stomach, I would strongly recommend the following
references on the Armenian genocide of the Muslims. Many more of them
are also available in the 'Erzurum and Van Turkish Genocide Museums.'
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri:
Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S.,
Ankara, 1982.
2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.
3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.
4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970.
But more than that.
A Final Goodbye in Azerbaijan:
[Photo by Associated Press]: "At a cemetery in Agdam, Azerbaijan, family
members and friends grieved during the burial of victims killed in the
fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh. Chingiz Iskandarov, right, hugged the
coffin containing the remains of his brother, one of the victims. A copy
of Koran lay atop the coffin."
The New York Times, 3/6/92
Final Embrace :
[Photo by Associated Press]: "Chingiz Iskenderov, right, weeps over
coffin holding the remains of his brother as other relatives grieve
at an Azarbaijani cemetery yesterday amid burial of victims killed
in fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh."
The Washington Post, 3/6/92
Nagorno-Karabagh Victims Buried in Azerbaijani Town :
"Refugees Claim Hundreds died in Armenian Attack...Of seven bodies seen
here today, two were children and three were women, one shot through
the chest at what appeared to be close range.  Another 120 refugees
being treated at Agdam's hospital include many with multiple stab
wounds."
Thomas Goltz
The Washington Post, 2/28/92
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS.
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 62
In article <48095@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> hminassi@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (HM) writes:
>    "Turkey must bare its teeth to Armenia."
Sooner than you expect. Remember 'Cyprus'?
>   I have to say I vehemently disagree with you, I have seen
Too bad. In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established
a vast network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two
continents. Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and
Waffen-SS in Russia and Western Europe. Armenians were involved in
espionage and fifth-column activities for Hitler in the Balkans and
Arabian Peninsula. They were promised an 'independent' state under
German 'protection' in an agreement signed by the 'Armenian National
Council.' (A copy of this agreement can be found in the 'Congressional
Record,' November 1, 1945; see Document 1.) On this side of the Atlantic,
Nazi Armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance. They had often
expressed pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the war. In summary,
during World War II Armenians were carried away with the German might and
cringing and fawning over the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication
in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements as follows:[1]
"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it
becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing."
Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.
"...We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
against our people (Jews)...Members of our family witnessed the
murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian
neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish
and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see
the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors...
Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise
to grant them self government if, in return, the Armenians would
help exterminate Jews...Armenians were also hearty proponents of
the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists. Mr. Amarian!
I don't need your bias."
Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.
[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: How many more Muslim people will be slaughtered by 'SDPA' criminals?
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 257
In article <1993Apr18.051439.5942@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org  writes:
>I want this discussion to take place in English, because it is only after
Let's face it, if the words don't get into your noggin in the first place,
there's no hope. Now tell us, 'SDPA.ORG', a mouthpiece of the fascist x-Soviet
Armenian Government: what was your role in the murder of Orhan Gunduz and
Kemal Arikan? How many more Muslims will be slaughtered by 'SDPA.ORG' as
publicly declared and filed with the legal authorities?
"...that more people have to die..."
SDPA <91@urartu.UUCP>
"Yes, I stated this and stand by it."
SDPA <255@urartu.UUCP>
January 28, 1982 - Los Angeles
Kemal Arikan is slaughtered by two Armenians while driving to work.
March 22, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
Prelude to grisly murder. A gift and import shop belonging to
Orhan Gunduz is blown up. Gunduz receives an ultimatum: Either
he gives up his honorary position or he will be "executed". He
refuses. "Responsibility" is claimed by JCAG and SDPA.
May 4, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
Orhan Gunduz, the Turkish honorary consul in Boston, would not bow
to the Armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of
"honorary consul". Now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood.
President Reagan orders an all-out manhunt-to no avail. An eye-
witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down.  He
survives... but falls silent. One of the most revolting "triumphs" in
the senseless, mindless history of Armenian terrorism. Such a murder
brings absolutely nothing - except an ego boost for the murderer
within the Armenian terrorist underworld, which is already wallowing
in self-satisfaction.
Were you involved in the murder of Sarik Ariyak?
December 17, 1980 - Sydney
Two Nazi Armenians massacre Sarik Ariyak and his bodyguard, Engin
Sever. JCAG and SDPA claim responsibility.
Source: Edward K. Boghosian, "Radical Group Hosts Well-Attended Solidarity
Meeting," The Armenian Reporter, May 1, 1986, pp. 1 & 18.
ATHENS, Greece - An array of representatives of Greek political parties,
including the ruling PASOK party, and a host of political groups, both
Armenian and non-Armenian, joined to voice their solidarity with the
Armenian people in their pursuit of their cause and activities of a new
Armenian political force were voiced here on Sunday, April 20 during
the 2nd International Meeting of Solidarity with the Armenian People. And
judging from encouraging messages offered by the representatives of these
political groups and organizations, at least here in Greece, the Armenian
Cause enjoys abundant support from a wide spectrum of the political world.
The International Meeting of Solidarity was sponsored by the Greek branch of
the Armenian Popular Movement, a comparatively new political force headed
by younger generations of Armenians, who openly profess their support of the
armed struggle and of the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia
(ASALA). The organization has branches in various European and Middle Eastern
countries and the United States although some of these branches appear to
have gone through a switch of loyalties because of the split within the ranks
of ASALA...
Voicing the support of PASOK, the ruling party in Greece, to the Armenian
people, was Mr. Charalambidi Michalis, a member of the Central Committee of
the party and the Greek member of the Permanent People's Tribunal...
Explaining the goals and aspirations of the Armenian Popular Movement
was Ara Sarkisian. Significant was the address delivered by Mr. Bassam
Abu-Salim, on behalf of the Popular Front for the movement's continued
support of the Armenians' armed struggle in their pursuit of their cause,
pledging that Palestinian operated and run training camps would always be
open to Armenian youth who need training for such a struggle. Later, Mr.
Abu-Salim, answering a question put to him by this writer, affirmed that
his organization had always trained Armenian members of ASALA and that
this policy will continue. "The doors of our camps are always open to
Armenian freedom fighters," he affirmed.
Among the prominent Greek politicians who attended the conference was the son
of Prime Minister Papandreou, who himself holds a post in the Greek cabinet;
two members of the Cypriot Parliament who had journeyed to Athens for the
specific purpose of attending the international gathering; representatives of
the Christian Democratic party, EDIK Center party, two wings of the Communist
party, representatives of an assortment of labor unions and trade associations,
a number of mayors of Greek towns and cities; two Greek members of the
European Parliament and other members of the Greek Parliament were also among
those who participated in the international conference. Also on hand to follow
the deliberations was the ambassador of Bulgaria in Athens.
More than significant was the large number of messages received by the
organizers, including the following: Palestinian National Revolutionary
Movement, Fatah; Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General
Command; the Central Committee of the Palestinian National Liberation
Movement-Fatah; the Socialist Progressive Party of Lebanon; Arab Socialist
Labor Party; the Kurdistan Democratic Union of Iraq; and numerous other
international groups, all noted for their radical stand in the Israeli-
Palestinian conflict.
SUPPORT FROM ARF-RM
Among messages received from Armenian groups was the Armenian Revolutionary
Federation-Revolutionary Movement, the group that has claimed the abduction
and assassination of key party leaders in Lebanon accused of selling out to
foreign interests and powers. The message clearly gave its support to the
Armenian Popular Movement pledging that the Revolutionary movement will
continue to "reveal the realities, no matter how bitter or tragic they are,"
to expose the anti-Armenian activities of the leaders of the Dashnag "Bureau."
The message was taken as an indication of the link, loose as it may be, that
exists between the dissident Dashnag group and the Armenian Popular Movement,
open supporters of ASALA and armed struggle.
The Armenian Popular Movement has set up its headquarters in a suburb of the
Greek capital, known as Neos Kosmos, where there is a large Armenian presence.
The headquarters are located in a two-story building, which appears to have
turned into a beehive of activity on the part of scores of Armenian youth, who
prefer to give their first names only when invited to introduce themselves...
Now any comment?
#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)
#Subject: Re:Addressing.....
#Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu>
In article <1993Apr7.225058.12073@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Apr7.030636.7473@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
>(Vedat  Dogan) wrote in response to article <1993Mar31.141308.28476@urartu.
>11sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>
>[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
>[(*] Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923)
>[(*] (287 pages).
>
>[DD] Such a pile of garbage! First off, the above reference was first published
>[DD] in 1924 NOT 1923, and has 353 pages NOT 287! Second, upon checking page
>[DD] 178, we are asked to believe:
>
>[VD] No, Mr.Davidian ...
>
>[VD]  It was first published IN 1923 (I have the book on my desk,now!)
>[VD]                         ********
>
>[VD]  and furthermore,the book I have does not have 353 pages either, as you
>[VD]  claimed, Mr.Davidian..It has 377 pages..Any question?..
>
>Well, it seems YOUR book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the
n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]!
o boy!
Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not
like them!!!...because they really exist...why?
As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source
given by Serdar Argic ..
You couldn't reject it...
>
>In addition, the Author's Preface was written on January 15, 1923, BUT THE BOOK
>was published in 1924.
Here we go again..
In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give
the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively!
(Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of
pages, please ask by sct)
I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924)
What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in
the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your
groundless accussations, etc.
>
[...]
>
>[DD] I can provide .gif postings if required to verify my claim!
>
>[VD] what is new?
>
>I will post a .gif file, but I am not going go through the effort to show there
>is some Turkish modified re-publication of the book, like last time!
I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication)
and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published
in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you
are avoiding the real issues by twisting around..
Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication)
First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You
called Serdar Argic a liar!..
I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote...
(I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.)
And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book"
(without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..)..
(by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was
first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty
well suited theories', as usual)
And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who
wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number
and page numbers again for the library use, which are:
949.6 R 198
and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215
>
>It is not possible that [(*]'s text has 287 pages, mine has 353, and yours has
>377!
Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is
not possible..." ..If not, what is your point?
Differences in the number of pages?
Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934..
No need to use the same book size and the same letter
charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!!
The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year
first published..
And you tried to hide the whole point..
the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about
how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given
by Serdar Argic exist!!
It was the issue, wasn't-it?
you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway?
You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap"..
People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still
has so many "craps" in the 1993.
Any question?
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: 'SDPA' has made "Armenian" synonymous with "idiot" or "criminal/Nazi".
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world
Lines: 208
In article <1993Apr19.000246.11186@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org  writes:
>In your (and Mutlu/Argic/Cosar's and thousands of others like you)
'SDPA.ORG' criminals/Nazis in action. Your fascist government got away with
the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men, women and children and is enjoying
the fruits of that genocide. And your criminal organization will not get away
with the genocide's cover-up. In June 1915, a major uprising took place in
Sebinkarahisar under the leadership of the famous Nazi Boyadjian. The Moslem
districts were burnt down. Hundreds of soldiers and gendarmerie were killed
and hundreds of civilians also perished.
Armenians first of all occupied the Talori region, which included
the villages of Siner, Simai, Gulli-Guzat, Ahi, Hedenk, Sinank,
Ekind, Effard, Musson, Etek, Akcesser. Leaving their wives,
children and property in these inaccessible spots, the Armenians
joined forces with other armed bands coming from the Silvan
districts in the plain of Mus, after which the whole body of
3000 men gathered in the Andok Mt. Five or six hundred wished
to surround Mus, and started off by attacking the Delican tribe to
the south of the city. They slaughtered a number of the tribe and
seized their goods. The religious beliefs of the Muslims who fell
into their hands were derided and disparaged, and the Muslims
themselves murdered in the most frightful manner. The rebels
also attacked the regular troops in the vicinity of Mus, but the
large numbers of the regular forces prevented them from
occupying the city.
The rebels joined the bandits in the Andok Mts., carrying out
the most frightful massacres and looting among the tribes of the
neighbourhood. They burned Omer Agha's nephew alive. They
raped a number of Turkish women at a spot three or four hours'
distance from Gulli-Guzat and then strangled them.
At the beginning of August the rebels attacked the Faninar,
Bekiran and Badikan tribes, perpetrating equally horrible
atrocities. The rebels in the villages of Yermut and Ealigernuk in
the nahiye of Cinan in the kaza of Cal attacked the Kurds in the
neighbourhood, as well as the villages of Kaisser and Catcat.
Towards the end of August, the Armenians attacked the
Kurds in the vicinity of Mus and burned down three or four
villages, including Gulli-Guzat. As for the 3000 rebels in Talori,
they continued to spread death and destruction among the
Muslims and other Christian communities, refusing to lay down
their arms.
Source: Uras, Esat: The Armenians in History. Documentary Publications
(Istanbul), 1988.
p. 954.
"In his speech given at the Sivas Congress, Mustafa Kemal once again drew
a picture of the  country under occupation:
In the East, the Armenians are making preparations for advancing to the
River Halys (Kizilirmak), and have already started a policy of massacring
the Moslem population."
pp. 966-967.
"The situation of the southern provinces of Turkey after the signing of the
Mudros Armistice is described by Ataturk in his speech:
The Armenians in the south, armed by foreign troops and encouraged by the
protection they enjoyed, molested the Mohammedans of their district. They
pursued a relentless policy of murder and extinction everywhere. This was
responsible for the tragic incident at Maras....the Armenians had completely
destroyed an old Mohammedan town like Maras by their artillery and
machine-gun fire.
They killed thousands of innocent and defenceless women and children. The
Armenians were the instigators of the atrocities, which were unique in
history.
Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
"Document No: 15," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 113, Drawer
No: 3, File No: 520, Section No: 2024, Contents No: 11-1; 11-3.
(19 Feb 330 '4 March 1915', District Governor Kemal)
"List of male inhabitants of Mergehu Village murdered or annihilated
with the utmost savagery by Armenians:
Names				Method of Annihilation
-----				----------------------
Haci Ibrahim, son of Abdi	Bullets and bayonet
Abdi, son of Haci Ibrahim	Bullets and bayonet
Reso, son of Abdi		Beaten and cut into pieces
Sado, son of Omer		Beaten and cut into pieces
Aso, son of Reso		Beaten and cut into pieces
Kulu, son of Canko		Stabbed in the eye with a bayonet
Musa, son of Canko		Bayonet in his eye
Emin, son of Molla Hamit	Bayonet in his eye
Molla Abdullah, son of Hamit	Bayonet in his eye
Ibo, son of Haci		Bayonet in his eye
Sado, son of Haci		Bayonet in his eye
Abdullah, son of Canko		Slaughtered
Ibo, son of Ahmet		Abdomen ripped open
Ismail, son of Ibo		Burnt in fire
Musto, son of Ozu		Bullets
Mahmut, son of Seyyo		Slaughtered
Kocak, son of Birro		Bullets
Musto, son of Husnu		Bullets
Uso, son of Alo			Bullets
Maksut, son of Peri		Bullets
Haci, son of Peri		Bullets
Mehmet, son of Hasanali		Bayonet
Ibo, son of Hasanali	 	Bayonet
Abdo, son of Mehmed		Bayonet
Molla Suleyman			Burnt in oven
Mazgi, son of Abdullah		Stabbed in abdomen by bayonet
Sulis, son of Hasan		Bullets
Mahmo, son of Mehmet		Stabbed with a dagger
Murat, son of Hasan		Stabbed with a dagger
Uso, son of Avci		Blinded with a bayonet
Lesko, son of Mehmet		Stabbed with a dagger
Abdullah, son of Kasim		Bullets
Coban Abdullah			Bullets
Seymo, son of Mumin		Bullets
Muammer, son of Reso		Bullets
Paso, son of Merzi		Bullets
Gulu, son of Bitor		Bullets
Murat, son of Yusuf		Bullets and bayonet
Cedo, son of Haci Ibrahim	Bullets and bayonet
Faki Mehmet			Bullets and bayonet
Silo, son of Abdulcebbar	Bullets and bayonet
List of massacred females from the same village:
Kasi, daughter of Huso and
wife of Haci Ibrahim		Bullets
Fati, daughter of Isa,
wife of Aduz			Bullets
Zeresan, daughter of Amat,
wife of Reso			Bayonet
Gullu, daughter of Iyso		Cutting off her breasts
Sulnu, daughter of Sulo,	Ripping open her abdomen and burning
wife of Ibo			her baby in oven
Fatma, daughter of Ibo 		Slaughtered and burnt in oven
Fidan hatun			Burnt in oven
Gulfizar, daughter of Hacihan,
wife of Musto			Slaughtered
Rahime, daughter of Mehmet,
wife of Halil			Bullets
Binefs, daughter of Haci Kerim,
wife of Suleyman		Burnt in oven
Mahiye, daughter of Ali,
wife of Sivno			Slaughtered
Hati, daughter of Haci,
wife of Ahmet         		Slaughtered
Hacer, daughter of Meho		Bullet and bayonet
List of Females of the same village raped and murdered:
Nadire, daughter of Haci, wife of Suvis
Hani, daughter of Kulu, wife of Zerko
Zaliha, daughter of Telli, wife of Silo
Arap, daughter of Sami, wife of Hilo
Wounded males and females of the same village:
(a long list)
List of massacred males and females at Istuci village:
Mikail, son of Alo		Bullets
Musto, son of Ismail		Bullets
Dervis, son of Maksut		Bullets
Ali, son of Nimet		Bayonet
Esat, son of Kelo		Bayonet and bullets
Isa, son of Nebi		Bayonet and bullets
Cevher, son of Gani		Beaten by rifle butt
Ziro, daughter of Hasan		Died from injuries
Hazal, daughter of Ali,
wife of Acem			Died from injuries
Hamsa, daughter of Huseyin,
wife of Huseyin			Died from injuries
List of raped women at Istuci village in life:
Sabo, daughter of Maho		Virgin
Miri, other daughter of Maho	Virgin
Emine, daughter of Meho, wife
of Sofi Salih
Sahap, daughter of Ali, wife
of Nevruz
Gullu, daughter of Mahi		Virgin
List of persons attacked by Armenian gangs:
(a long list)"
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Himmler's speech on the extirpation of the Jewish race
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Lines: 56
It is appropriate to add what Himmler said other "inferior races"
and "human animals" in his speech at Posen and elsewhere:
From the speech of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, before SS
Major-Generals, Posen, October 4 1943
["Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression", Vol. IV, p. 559]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
One basic principal must be the absolute rule for the SS man: we
must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own
blood and to nobody else. What happens to a Russian, to a Czech,
does not interest me in the slightest. What the nations can offer
in good blood of our type, we will take, if necessary by kidnapping
their children and raising them with us. Whether nations live in
prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we
need them as slaves for our culture; otherwise, it is of no interest
to me. Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion
while digging an anti-tank ditch interest me only in so far as
the anti-tank ditch for Germany is finished. We shall never be rough
and heartless when it is not necessary, that is clear. We Germans,
who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude
towards animals, will also assume a decent attitude towards these
human animals. But it is a crime against our own blood to worry
about them and give them ideals, thus causing our sons and
grandsons to have a more difficult time with them. When someone
comes to me and says, "I cannot dig the anti-tank ditch with women
and children, it is inhuman, for it will kill them", then I
would have to say, "you are a murderer of your own blood because
if the anti-tank ditch is not dug, German soldiers will die, and
they are the sons of German mothers. They are our own blood".
Extract from Himmler's address to party comrades, September 7 1940
["Trials of Wa Criminals", Vol. IV, p. 1140]
------------------------------------------------------------------
If any Pole has any sexual dealing with a German woman, and by this
I mean sexual intercourse, then the man will be hanged right in
front of his camp. Then the others will not do it. Besides,
provisions will be made that a sufficient number of Polish women
and girls will come along as well so that a necessity of this
kind is out of the question.
The women will be brought before the courts without mercy, and
where the facts are not sufficiently proved - such borderline
cases always happen - they will be sent to a concentration camp.
This we must do, unless these one million Poles and those
hundreds of thousands of workers of alien blood are to inflict
untold damage on the German blood. Philosophizing is of no avail
in this case. It would be better if we did not have them at all -
we all know that - but we need them.
-Danny Keren.
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science
Lines: 33
In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>|> In article <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>|> >04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
>|> >
>|>
>|> Ermenistan kasiniyor...
>|>
>|> Let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets
>|> into it	: Armenia is getting itchy.
>|>
>|> Esin.
>
>
>Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;
>
>ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW that SHE
>WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with their FAMOUS
>tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion of the Greek island of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Your ignorance is obvious from your posting.
1) Cyprus was an INDEPENDENT country with Turkish/Greek inhabitants (NOT a
Greek island like your ignorant posting claims)
2) The name should be Cyprus (in English)
next time read and learn before you post.
Esin.
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 17
mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:
>Let's not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered. The
>distinction is not trivial. Murder happens to innocent people, not people
>whose line of work is to kill or be killed. It just so happened that these
>soldiers, in the line of duty, were killed by the opposition.
That still doesn't mean we should cheer their deaths.  Policemen are also in
the line of fire and their job includes the possibility of getting killed.
Should we be happy when they die?  As I said before, the question is not
whether or not you agree with the policies of Israel.  You may wish for the
Israelis to cease occupation, but don't rejoice in death.
>-marc
Ed.
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 45
amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
>In article <C5IFH7.3q4@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>
>>What the hell do you know about Israeli policy?  What gives you the fiat
>>to look into the minds of Israeli generals?  Has this 'policy of intimidation'
>>been published somewhere?  For your information, the actions taken by Arabs,
>>specifically the PLO, were not uncommon in the Lebanon Campaign of 1982.  My
>>brain is full of shit?  At least I don't look into the minds of others and
>>make Israeli policy for them!
>>
>... deleted
>I am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not
>be necessary.  Israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across
>as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the Arabs.
How would you deal with Arabs who ALWAYS threaten to drive you into the sea or
burn half your conuntry?  Would you talk nicely?  Would you say please?  You
wouldn't.  The language of the middle east is power and force.  Sorry - that
is the way it is now.  If you aren't strong, you go down.  Israel has to talk
and act tough.  Notice, Israel talks and acts tough in battle, but is willing
to talk peace.
>The way I see it, Israelis and Arabs have not been able to achieve peace
>after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:
> 1) Arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently
>    most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or
>    dictators.
True - and they have brainwashed their people into thinking Jews are some sort
of monsters.  Arab non-recognition of Israel and support of war and terror
is also an important factor, wouldn't you say?
> 2) Israeli government is arrogant and none comprising.
What do you want Israel to do?  They are negotating? I'm sick of people calling
for Israel to withdraw from the territories now.  That's not realistic, don't
you realize that?  A solution must be negotiated.  It is on the table.  Have
patience.
Ed.
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: world
Lines: 60
In <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:
>stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
>> Even the most extemist, one sided (jewish/israeli) postings (with which I
>> certainly disagree), did not openly back plain murder. You do.
>>
>> The 'Lebanese resistance' you are talking about is a bunch of lebanese
>> farmers who detonate bombs after work, or is an organized entity of not-
>> only-lebanese well trained mercenaries ? I do not know, just curious.
>>
>> I guess you also back the killings of hundreds of marines in Beirut, right?
>>
>> What kind of 'resistance' movement killed jewish attlets in Munich 1972 ?
>>
>> You liked it, didn't you ?
>>
>>
>> You posted some other garbage before, so at least you seem to be consistent.
>>
>> Dorin
>Dorin,
>Let's not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered. The
>distinction is not trivial. Murder happens to innocent people, not people
>whose line of work is to kill or be killed. It just so happened that these
>soldiers, in the line of duty, were killed by the opposition. And
>resistance is different from terrorism. Certainly the athletes in Munich
>were victims of terrorists (though some might call them freedom fighters).
And some of us call them murderous bastards, but what's in a name.
>Their deaths cannot be compared to those of soldiers who are killed by
>resistance fighters. Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
>Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
>hostile occupiers in WWII. Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the
Just a damn minute! What history books did you read? I seem to recall
that there were a few British, Canadian, American, and Commonwealth
soldiers in France about that time. Perhaps you believe they were taking
a vacation trip?
>Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
>only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
>out the US)
Sure, the Lebanese want to get all foreigners out of the country so they
can go back to killing each other off.
>-marc
REB
>--
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
>both eyes.
>My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
>______________________________________________________________________________
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism - again.
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: composer.think.com
In article <khan0095.734814178@nova>, khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan) writes:
|> One of my biggest complaints about using the word "fundamentalist"
|> is that (at least in the U.S.A.) people speak of muslime
|> fundamentalists                                  ^^^^^^^muslim
|> but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is.
|> I wonder what an equal definition would be..
|> any takers..
Well, I would go as far as saying that Naturei Karta are definitely
Jewish fundamentalists.  Other ultra-orthodox Jewish groups might very
well be, though I am hesitant of making such a broad generalization.
--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: composer.think.com
In article <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu>, mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:
|> Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
|> Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
|> hostile occupiers in WWII.
Actually, this is incorrect.  French resistance may have played some
part in hindering the German war effort, however the crucial role was
supplied on D-Day.
|> Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the
|> Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
|> only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
|> out the US)
Interesting statement.  Especially when you consider that Lebanon
had claimed to have made progress in the peace talks, as well as
Israel.  Of course, one of the prime obstacles to Israel's complete
withdrawal is the lack of governmental control that can be applied
to the area as well as the large presence of Syrian forces which
have not been asked to withdraw as well.
--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Enough Freeman Bashing!  Was: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freemanwith blood greetings from Israel
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 18
In article <C5I6JG.BM1@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:
>pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:
>
>
>Peter,
>
>I believe this is your most succinct post to date. Since you have nothing
>to say, you say nothing! It's brilliant. Did you think of this all by
>yourself?
>
>-marc
>--
Hey tough guy, read the topic.  That's the message.  Get a brain.  Go to
a real school.
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 60
tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan) writes:
>In article <C5IF8u.3Ky@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos
>Tamamidis ) writes:
>
>> >(I have nothing against Greeks but my problem is with fanatics. I have met
>> >so many Greeks who wouldn't even talk to me because I am Turkish. From my
>> >experience, all my friends always were open to Greeks)
>>
>>  Well, the history, wars, current situations, all of them do not help.
>Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
>who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
>believe for somebody trying to be objective.
Well, if you put things into historical perspective, the Turks
moved into an area, which was inhabited by Greeks.  This is how the history
between the two nations started some centuries ago.  Since then, it has been
a continuous battle between the two nations.  From my perspective I can't see
why I should say that Greeks have been responsible for what has happened
between the two nations.  Of course, it would not be reasonable to argue that
the hostility should drag till we kick the Turks out of this area.  This isn't
going to happen, so the best would be to improve the relations between the two
countries.  A golden oportunity exists with Cyprus.  If things can't work
there, there isn't any possible way that could work between our nations.
>When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
>blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
>What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
>Do you think it was your right to be there?
I always avoid to discuss such things.  I consider it a waist of my time.
Besides, as I said, I do not want to open a new flame.
>I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
>not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
>It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
>I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
>visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
>was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
I thought it was a smart move to receive more money from Greek tourists.
I bet that this week there should be about 200,000 tourists from Greece
in Turkey.  Each one will leave at least $1,000 so go and figure what this
means to your economy.  If you had kept the visa requirement, how many
Greeks would bother to visit Turkey?
>The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
>people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
>because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
>not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals
>why the hatred?
Come on. Do not extrapolate from your limited personal experience.  You err
if you think you'd get a reasonable conclusion.
>Tankut Atan
>tankut@iastate.edu
Panos Tamamidis
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: An Iranian Azeri Who Would Drop an Atomic Bomb on Armenia
Summary: fool
Article-I.D.: urartu.1993Apr15.231047.13120
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Lines: 70
In article <93104.101314FHM100F@ODUVM.BITNET> FARID <FHM100F@ODUVM.BITNET>
writes:
[FARID] In support of the preservation of the territorial integrity of
[FARID] Azerbaijan and its independence from Russian rule, the Iranians which
[FARID] includes millions of Azerbaijanis will have Armenia retreat from the
[FARID] territory of Azerbaijan.
Oh, they will? This should prove quite interesting!
[FARID] To count on Iranian help to supposedly counter Turkish influence will
[FARID] be a fatal error on the part of Armenia as long as Armenia in
[FARID] violation of international law has Azerbaijani lands in occupation.
Armenia is not counting on Iranian help. As far as violations of international
laws, which international law gives Azerbaijan the right to attack and
depopulate the Armenians in Karabakh?
[FARID] If Armenian aggression continues in the territory of Azerbaijan, not
[FARID] only there won't be any aid from Iran to Armenia but also steps will
[FARID] be taken to have Armenian army back in Armenia.
And who do you speak for? Rafsanjani?
[FARID] The Azerbaijanis of Iran will be the guarantors of this policy. As for
[FARID] scaring Iranians or Turks from the Russian power, experts on present
[FARID] and future military potentials of these people would not put much
[FARID] stock on the Russain power as the sole power in the region for long!!!
Well, Farid, your supposed experts are not expert! The Russians have had
non-stop influence in the Caucasus since the Treaty of Turkmanchay in 1828.
Hmm... that makes it 1993-1828 = 165 years!
Oh, I see the Azeris from Iran are going to force out the Armenians from
Karabakh! That will be a real good trick!
[FARID] Iran is not alian to developing the capability to produce the A bomb
[FARID] and a reliable delivery system (refer to recent news releases
[FARID] regarding the potential of Iran).
So the Azeris from Iran are going to force the Armenians from Karabakh by
forcing the Iranian government to drop an atomic bomb on these Armenians.
[FARID] The moral of the story is that, you don't go invading your neighbor's
[FARID] home (Azerbaijan) and flash Russia's guns when questioned about it.
Oh, but it's just fine if you drop an atomic bomb on your neighbor! You are
a damn fool, Farid!
[FARID] (Marshal Shapashnikov may have to eat his words regarding Turkey in a
[FARID] few short years!).
So you are going to drop an atomic bomb on Russia as well.
[FARID] Peaceful resolution of the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict is the only
[FARID] way to go. Armenia may soon find the fruits of Aggression very bitter
[FARID] indeed.
And the Armenians will take your "peaceful" dropping of an atomic bomb as
an example of Iranian Azeri benevolence! You sir are a poor example of an
Iranian Azeri!
Ha! And to think I had a nice two day stay in Tabriz back in 1978!
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992
From: cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com (C. Akgun)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)
Nntp-Posting-Host: troy.cc.bellcore.com
Organization: BCR, NJ-USA
Lines: 126
In article <C5I6rK.L9I@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:
[...}
>>any concentration/labor camp in Turkey (around 1974 or
>>later) for Cypriot Greeks (or any Greeks) rather than talking
>>nonsense like above, I will be glad to read what they got.
>
>How can you be in a position to know about any kind of concentration camps
>Akgun?
Living through those days at the age of 20 and following
the internal and external news gives me that knowledge
and position.  In 1974, Turkey had a democratic goverment and free
press at that time.  Forget about internal news agencies, I haven't
heard anything from any international source about any
concentration camps with Greek Cypriot prisoners in Turkey.
However, I heard Adana POW camp.  It was not secret and well
recognized POW camp.
>
>As for all the registered prisoners to the Red Cross having returned to
>their homes, this is your version of the story.  There are cases in which
>prisoners who were registered, some of them even sent messages to their
>relatives, were not released.  These are undeniable facts.
I see,  They vanished in Turkish labor camps.  Turks have
decided to acknowledge their existence first but later
changed their minds releasing them.  Is that it?  What do
you think happened to them?  I thought that MIA's are only the subject
of Rambo and Chuck Noris movies.  Seems that I am wrong.
>
>As for their treatment being according to what convention...?
>Okay we believe you.
You don't need to belive me.  Turkiye was never a clandestine state
in its history,  It has been a respected and continuous member of UN
since the inception of UN.  No body ever questioned the UN membership of
Turkey because of what had happened in 1974a and after.  Only a short
lived arms embargo was imposed unilaterally by USA to satisfy the
internal Greek loby.  I know what you would say next.  Let me answer it
before wasting anytime.  Yes!  UN had a few condemning resolutions
against Turkey because of handling the Cyprus problem, especially after
the 1980 coup.  Well, US and Israel had a few too.  What can I say?
I am sure during Athens Junta duruing 1960-74, Greeks had
their own share too.
>>closed matter today between Turkish Cypriots/Turks/Greeks/Greek
>>Cypriots.  There is no more any official demand from Greek
>>Cypriots about any missing Greek Cypriots.
>
>Where have you heard that there is no official demand regarding the
>missing persons?
Have you looked at the latest UN agenda for Cyprus talks
mediated by Gali?  There was no issue whatsoever about any
missing people among the negotiating parties.  was there?
I heard many times from Denktas interviews by Turkish and
International press.  He keeps saying that "This was no
longer an issue for peace talks."  Also, you don't want
me fish for the Greek Cypriot politician's words (that Argic
had posted zillion times) describing missing peoples as
a Greek-Cypriot myth.  Seems that there is a different opinions
among Greek-Cypriots as well about missing people in Turkish
custody.
[..]
>Your claim that the majority of the missing persons were infact killed
>in the period between the coup d'eta and the invasion, 5 days, is simply
>not true.  All the cases of missing persons I know, and I know quite a
>few, are cases of people who were  either in the reserve forces and were lost
>somewhere in the battlefield, or were civilians who were taken prisoners
>in their villages by the turkish army.
I am not claiming anything.  I just told you what was
given to Greek Cypriots as an answer by Turkish
Goverment/Turkish Cypriots when they wanted to locate some
of their own between July 15 and the final cease-fire in
late August, 1974.  This answer seems to satisfy the international
community, the UN, and the Vasilu Goverment (since he did not make it
an issue for the peace talks).  Also, I am not aware of any UN
condemnation against Turkey about any missing Greek-Cypriot.  Are you?
BTW, do you mean that Nicos Sampson had a bloodless coup d'eta
and nobody got hurt in those events?
>
>As of the few photos which you refer to, there are more than a few. There are
>photos not only of greek cypriot soldiers being "rounded up", but also others
>in the prison camp in Turkey.
Like I said before.  There is even a different opinion among
Greek-Cypriots for this myth.   The officers in Turkish Army who
governed the Adana POW camp must be hell of clever dudes
to cover up their tracks 8-).  I hope Turkish Army does't have
same type of morons for the security of Turkiye.  However, this must
a good subject for a movie script.  One should inform Oliver Stone
about this.
>
>> Of course, not.  The justice was served well.  If and when the Bosnian
>>pleas are answered, who's going to dare to ask what happens to those
>>masterminds behind the ethnic cleansing idea.  They are known today
>>(as EOKA-B masterminds were known in 1974) to everybody and are doing
>>it openly even giving TV interviews.  It may take same time as it was
>>for the EOKA-B case, however, the justice will be served again.
>
>Akgun, comparing the actions of the Serbians in Bosnian with the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>actions of
^^^^^^^^^^^
>Turkey in Cyprus is not something I would do if I were a Turk.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I thought
>that the Serbians were the savages, the inhumane beasts etc etc.
>
>>C. Akgun
>
>Michalis Syrimis
>
If this is what you understood from the paragraph above,
you better let your computer system administrator check
the character conversion tables in your system.  If yours are
OK, I should inform mine 8-).
C. Akgun
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: Reasons : was Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!
Nntp-Posting-Host: tbilisi.src.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center
Lines: 13
In article <1993Apr15.160224.15940@unocal.com> stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
...
>Now, about tough talk and arrogance, we are adults, aren't we ? Do you listen
>to tough talk of american politicians ? or switch  the channel ?
...
I guess, I didn't make my point clear.  In the case of Israel government, it
is not only tough talk for its intimidation policy.  After all, not many
people are intimidated just by talking.  Here how it goes: tough talks,
followed by aggressive actions followed by taking pride of those actions and
bragging about them.
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death
Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 13
>them. (By the way, I do not applaud the killing of _any_ human being,
>including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department)
>
>Peace.
>-marc
>
Boy, you really are a stupid person.  Our justice department does
not sentence people to death.  That's up to state courts.  Again,
get a brain.
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: RE: was:Go Hezbollah!
Reply-To: bh437292@lance.colostate.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: parry.lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University
Lines: 116
I will try to answer some of Dorin's questions, even though they were
not addressed to me specifically, but I feel that I am a bit concerned
by the thread since I am a Southern Lebanese from a village that is
often on the receiving end of Israel's bombs.
In the first place the death of three soldiers on a patrol in occupied
Lebanese terrritory is NOT an act of terrorism or murder.  It is
disingeneous to compare their death to that of athletes in Munich
or any other act of terrorism or mrder.  This exercise is aimed
solely at diverting the issue and is far from the truth.
It seems to me, Dorin, that, you are so remote and ignorant of the problem
on the ground that your comments can only be charactrized as irrelevant,
and heavily colored by the preconceptions and misinformation.
I will try to paint the most accurate picture I can of
what the situation really is in South Lebanon.
In article <1993Apr15.152455.14555@unocal.com>, stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
|> Is there any Israeli a civilian, in your opinion ?
|>
|> Now, I do not condone myself bombing villages, any kind of villages.
|> But you claim these are villages with civilians, and Iraelis claim they are
|> camps filled with terrorists. You claim that israelis shell the villages with the
|> 'hope' of finding a terrorist or so. If they kill one, fine, if not, too bad,
|> civilians die, right ? I am not so sure.
I am.  I was back in my home village this last summer.  For your information
we are PEOPLE, not a bunch of indiscriminate terrorists.  Most of the
people in my village are regular inhabitants that go about their daily
business, some work in the fields, some own small shops, others are
older men that go to the coffe shop and drink coffee.  Is that so hard to
imagine ????  It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like
to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not
know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  Once they
are back they announce that they bombed a "terrorist  hideout" where
an 8 year old girl just happened to be.
We are now accustomed to Israeli tactics, and we figure that this is
the Israeli way of telling us that "if you're gonna hurt our soldiers
you're gonna pay the price".  We accept this as a price we have to pay
to free our land, Israel knows very well that it is not really hurting
the resistance that much militarily with these strikes, but rather
just keeping the pressure on the villagers to demand from their young
men to stop attacking Israeli soldiers since these attacks are
taking a heavy toll on the lives of the civilian villagers.
Israel's retalliation policy is cold hearted, but a reality that
we have come to accept and deal with, the Lebanese Resistance
on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on OCCUPYING
ISRAELI SOLDIERS until they withdraw, this is the only real
leverage that they have to force Israel to withdraw.
The people of South Lebanon are occupied, or shelled by Israel on a
regular basis.  We do not want to be occupied.  If Israel insists that
the so called "Security Zone" is necessary for the protection of
Northern Israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation
with the blood of its soldiers.  If Israel is interested in peace,
than it should withdraw from OUR land.  We are not asking for the
establishment of a Lebanese occupied zone in northern Israel to protect
our villages that are attacked on a regular basis by Israel, so the
best policy seems to be the removal of Israeli occupation and the
establishment of peace keeping troops along the border.
I have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only
real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace
settlement whereby Israel withdraws to its own borders and
peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure
no one on either side of the border is shelled.
This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
would have resulted in.
If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw
unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's
public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations
since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in
peace and has already offered some important concessions.
Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not
accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.
There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such
circumstances, and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
in all other parts of Lebanon.
|> If you ask me those questions, I will have no problem answering (not with a
|> question, as you did) : No, NOBODY is qualified candidate for murder, nothing
|> justifies murder.
I agree, only in the case of the Isareli soldiers their killing
CANNOT be qualified as murder, no matter what you say.
I have the feeling that you may be able yourself to make
|> similar statements, maybe after eliminating all Israelis, jews, ? Am I wrong ?
Yes, we have no quarrel with Jews, or Israeli civilians.
The real problem is with OCCUPYING Israeli soldiers and those brave
Israeli pilots that bomb our civilian villages every time an
occupying soldier is attacked.
|> Dorin
Basil
From: warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Serdar Argic
Organization: ITEX, Jerusalem, Israel
Lines: 42
In <1993Apr13.194543.225925@fourd.com> bill_paxton@fourd.com writes:
>Hello Serdar,
>              I would like very much to meet you. Where are you located?
>Let me know as soon as possible where we can meet. I am looking forward to
>meeting you.
I don't know how to reach Serdar, but you might be able to reach his
sysadmin by email, phone, or snail-mail.
Here is information from rs.internic.net:
Ahmet Cosar (ANATOLIA-DOM)
1530 S. 6th St.
Suite C705
Minneapolis, Minnesota, 55454
Domain Name: ANATOLIA.ORG
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Cosar, Ahmet  (AC234)  cosar@ANATOLIA.ORG
612-376-7873
And here is what "finger cosar@umn.edu" gets you:
name: Ahmet Cosar-1
info: Last registered 1993 Winter Qtr
Internet mailbox: cosa0001@student.tc.umn.edu
other mailbox: PROFS: COSA0001@UMNTCML
postal address: 1530 So 6th St Apt C705
Minneapolis
MN 55454
surname: Cosar
telephone: +1 612-376-7873
title: Grad
userid: cosa0001
X.400 mailbox: /G=Ahmet/S=Cosar-1/OU=mail/O=tc/PRMD=umn.edu/ADMD= /C=us/
--
/|/-\/-\
|__/__/_/
|warren@
/ nysernet.org
From: Shelomoh*S*ZIENIUK <27916070@PLEARN.BITNET>
Subject:      WARSAW GHETTO UPRISING 50TH ANNIVERSARY: A Visitor's ABC
Originator: tpm@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: 27916070@PLEARN.BITNET
Organization: Nysernet
Lines: 32
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
D"SB
Mincha, Tish(a Yamim La(Omer, Yom Chamishi, Y"D b'Nisan ThShN"G;
Universita Varsha b'Varsha, Galut HaMara Meod.
SHALOM ALL!
Those of You visiting The Ghetto City these days might be
interested in the following events timetable  (abridged):
19:00, Fri., 16th April, '93: Kabbalat Shabbat service at the Nozyk Shul
(6 Twarda Street, Warsaw -- a 10 mins'
walk from the Palace of Science &
Culture: the tallest building in the
city's centre, & the same distance from
the Central Railway Station).
09:30, Sat., 17th April,  " : Shacharit L'Shabbat service, Nozyk Shul.
11:30, Sun., 18th April,  " : The Fallen Ones Memorial service, Nozyk Shul.
13:00, Sun., 18th April,  " : Memorial Ceremony at the Jewish Cemetery
(Okopowa Street, Warsaw).
18:00, Sun., 18th April,  " : Official Arts Programme at the Congress Hall
(a building adjacent to the Palace of
Science & Culture, which -- like the Shul
-- is located a quarter's walk from most of
downtown hotels: Bristol, Forum, Victoria,
Europejski, Holiday Inn, Marriott).
12:00, Mon., 19th April,  " : Laying of Wreaths at the Ghetto Heros
Monument.
Shabbat Shalom UL'Hitraot B'Varsha!
Shelomoh*Slawek*ZIENIUK, student, Univ. of Warsaw (Dept. of Hebrew), Warsaw.
ani shalom v'khi adaber           hema lamilchama: -- Tehillim Q"K:Z'
Guest e-mail account: <27916070@plearn.bitnet>
From: nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu (Nissan Raclaw)
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA
Lines: 13
Congratulations also are due to the Hamas activists who blew up the
World Trade Center, no?  After all, with every American that they put
in the grave they are underlining the USA's bankrupt imperialist
policies.  Go HAmas!
Blah blah blah blah blah
Brad, you are only asking that that violence that you love so much
come back to haunt you...............
Nissan
From: khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism - again.
Organization: GMI Engineering&Management Institute, Flint, MI
Lines: 10
Ok, someone is fundamentalist, someone else is not.
What defines a fundamentalist (Not who!!!!!!!!!).
That is an essential question which nobody has agreed upon an answer,
at least to what literature / discussion / news i've seen..
--
Mohammad R. Khan                /    khan0095@nova.gmi.edu
After July '93, please send mail to  mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 17
In article <C5HIyr.327@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>Brad, You're a very sick son-of-a-bitch.  Wishing for someone's death, even if
>they are your enemy, is very deranged.  I really have pity for you and those
>like you.  Did you acquire this philosophy from Islam?
>>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
>Ed.
This is an interesting question to ponder.  Did Brad/Ali's sickness
make Ayatollah-style Islam attractive to him or did this new religion
that Brad/Ali has formally adopted give him this sickness?
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 21
In article <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:
>Diplomacy has not worked with Israel
Of course, it hasn't.  Besides Egypt, the rest of the Arab world still
officially denies that Israel exists.
>and the
>Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
>only option they see as viable.
Kick out Syria?
>(Don't forget that it worked in driving out the US)
American-Occupied Lebanon?  That's a new one on me!
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 39
In article <1993Apr14.210636.4253@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>Hezbollah and other Lebanese Resistance fighters are skilled at precision
>bombing of SLA and Israeli targets.
It's hard to beat a car-bomb with a suicidal driver in getting
right up to the target before blowing up.  Even booby-traps and
radio-controlled bombs under cars are pretty efficient killers.
You have a point.
>I find such methods to be far more
>restrained and responsible
Is this part of your Islamic value-system?
>than the Israeli method of shelling and bombing
>villages with the hope that a Hezbollah member will be killed along with
>the civilians murdered.
Had Israeli methods been anything like this, then Iraq wouldn've been
nuked long ago, entire Arab towns deported and executions performed by
the tens of thousands.  The fact is, though, that Israeli methods
aren't even 1/10,000th as evil as those which are common and everyday
in Arab states.
>Soldiers are trained to die for their country. Three IDF soldiers
>did their duty the other day. These men need not have died if their government
>had kept them on Israeli soil.
"Israeli soil"????  Brad/Ali!  Just wait until the Ayatollah's
thought-police get wind of this.  It's all "Holy Muslim Soil (tm)".
Have you forgotten?  May Allah have mercy on you now.
>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
--
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Lines: 26
Peter Garfiel Freeman writes:
>>them. (By the way, I do not applaud the killing of _any_ human being,
>>including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department)
>>
>>Peace.
>>-marc
>Boy, you really are a stupid person.  Our justice department does
>not sentence people to death.  That's up to state courts.  Again,
>get a brain.
Peter, I think you are ridiculous here. Stupidity is not a measure of how
well someone knows our judicial system. I guess Marc meant that he is
against death penalty. But no matter what he meant, your statement not
justified.
Regards,
Dorin
From: smortaz@handel.sun.com (shahrokh mortazavi)
Subject: Re: News briefs from KH # 1025
Organization: Central
Lines: 18
In article <1qg1gdINNge7@anaconda.cis.ohio-state.edu> karbasi@cis.ohio-state.edu writes:
>
>	1- "nehzat-e aazaadee"'s member have many times been arrested
>	and tortured and as we speak some of them are still in prison.
>
>	2- The above item confirms the long standing suspicion that
>	the only reason this regime has not destroyed "nehzat-e
>	aazaadee" completely is just to show off and brag about the
>	"freedom of expression in Iran" in its propaganda paper.
>
>	Get serious!  If this regime had its way, there would be
>	absolutely no freedom of expression anywhere, not even in SCI.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
there really isnt, as seen by the heavy usage of anonymous posting.
if iri sympathizers didnt roam around in sci, anon-poster would
get used only occasionally (as in the good old days).
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: Reasons : was Re: was: Go Hezbollah!
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Lines: 32
Hossien Amehdi writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.160224.15940@unocal.com> stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
>>>Now, about tough talk and arrogance, we are adults, aren't we ? Do you listen
>>>to tough talk of american politicians ? or switch  the channel ?
>I guess, I didn't make my point clear.  In the case of Israel government, it
>is not only tough talk for its intimidation policy.  After all, not many
>people are intimidated just by talking.  Here how it goes: tough talks,
>followed by aggressive actions followed by taking pride of those actions and
>bragging about them.  >
Agressive actions are taken by both sides. Tough talk is done by both sides.
When an arab leader is menacing to throw all jews in the water is also tough talk,
I think. And killing people is mildly agressive (justified, in your opinion
if they are israeli soldiers, justified, in others' opinion if they are jews, not
justified at all in others opinion).
When Brad wrote the article about 3 Israelis killed, ther was a lot of pride
and satisfaction in his lines. That's what I feel disgusting. We may agree
or not when a killing is 'technically' murder, but being enthousiastic about it?
And again, I may appreciate some of your points, but you are not objective. That
is not a blame, just a remark.
Dorin
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Lines: 83
In article <1993Apr13.182614.2634@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>In article  <1993Apr13.002118.24102@das.harvard.edu>
> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>> In article <1993Apr12.184034.1370@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>>>IMHO, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within
>>>the Arabs/Isreal war context. The real question is who/what  started the
>>>War. Does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of Israel on Arab
>>>land ?
>>	Huh?  A war was started when several armies invaded Israel,
>>vowing to drive the Jews into the sea.  Most Jews wanted to live in
>>peace, and the Arabs who stayed in Israel were granted citizenship.
> I am
>surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
>state, as a hostile action leading to war.
It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
400 000 arab citizens.
And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
is not a hostile action leading to war.
>As to whether the Jews wanted to live in peace, maybe.
>However they wanted and still want an exclusively Jewish
>state, where Jews are in control and Jews are the masters of
>the land.  Living in peace is meaningless unless it means
>living *WITH* someone else, as equal. For a native arab, this
>does not leave many options.
Oh, you mean like both Jews and Arabs being citizens?  The
arabs who stayed are now citizens, with as much right to choose who
they vote for as the Jews.
>Those palestinians who stayed, actually stayed despite of what